Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shuffler on December 05, 2023, 12:14:20 PM
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This guy is an idiot.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/youtuber-staged-plane-crash-california-sentenced-6-months-prison (https://www.foxnews.com/us/youtuber-staged-plane-crash-california-sentenced-6-months-prison)
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It's amazing what some people will do for attention..
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amazed it took this long.
semp
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Pity he did not earn a Darwin award. I fully expect to see some copycats, probably based on stealing the plane, to happen in the next couple years.
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Girl from down the road here (youtube "star") flew her Debonaire into the ground a week or so ago, killed her and her father. She supposedly had 400 hours of flight time. Saw her videos on youtube, she should never have even been given a basic certificate, and a Cessna 152 was probably beyond her meager skills set. What passed for a CFI these days is frightening. She was apparently fighting with the old autopilot, and over compensating with her manual trim. Ended up going straight in at a 50 degree dive, and 216 MPH.
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Wow. I didn't know a 152 would go that fast! :bolt:
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can't believe that guy only got 6 months for that.
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Girl from down the road here (youtube "star") flew her Debonaire into the ground a week or so ago, killed her and her father. She supposedly had 400 hours of flight time. Saw her videos on youtube, she should never have even been given a basic certificate, and a Cessna 152 was probably beyond her meager skills set. What passed for a CFI these days is frightening. She was apparently fighting with the old autopilot, and over compensating with her manual trim. Ended up going straight in at a 50 degree dive, and 216 MPH.
TNFlygirl or something like that. I saw that on blancolirio.
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Wow. I didn't know a 152 would go that fast! :bolt:
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She crashed a beech debonair.
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Ah. my bad. That one might go that fast?
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All the way to the crash site.
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Ah. my bad. That one might go that fast?
Yes, the Debonair is a fairly hot little ride. And she was in a 50 degree dive, at full throttle.
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Yes, the Debonair is a fairly hot little ride. And she was in a 50 degree dive, at full throttle.
Seems kind of bizarre to crash like that... would the plane just not pull up? Was she asleep at the wheel?
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Seems kind of bizarre to crash like that... would the plane just not pull up? Was she asleep at the wheel?
Probably just screwing around with the autopilot trim and manual trim settings, and forgot to look at the airspeed indicator (or out the window).
You easily can get focused on one aspect of flying the plane. Takes concentration to keep looking around at everything.
- oldman
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Girl from down the road here (youtube "star") flew her Debonaire into the ground a week or so ago, killed her and her father. She supposedly had 400 hours of flight time. Saw her videos on youtube, she should never have even been given a basic certificate, and a Cessna 152 was probably beyond her meager skills set. What passed for a CFI these days is frightening. She was apparently fighting with the old autopilot, and over compensating with her manual trim. Ended up going straight in at a 50 degree dive, and 216 MPH.
It is extremely unfair to generalize an entire population of young CFIs based on one pilot's poor decision. She has had her license for 350 hours-ish, the CFI has absolutely nothing to do wit hit nor does the DPE. Why not blame the autopilot brand? Or Textron? Same difference, in my opinion.
All of us are couple of poor decisions away from danger, the CFI goes by what he/she sees in the cockpit for a limited amount of time, what is seen in the classroom for a limited amount of time, and what is seen in the logbook. The DPE has even less time. If the student proves to be proficient in all necessary areas, it is no longer in the CFI's or DPE's hands. So, give them a break. PiC error for a reason.
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It is extremely unfair to generalize an entire population of young CFIs based on one pilot's poor decision. She has had her license for 350 hours-ish, the CFI has absolutely nothing to do wit hit nor does the DPE. Why not blame the autopilot brand? Or Textron? Same difference, in my opinion.
All of us are couple of poor decisions away from danger, the CFI goes by what he/she sees in the cockpit for a limited amount of time, what is seen in the classroom for a limited amount of time, and what is seen in the logbook. The DPE has even less time. If the student proves to be proficient in all necessary areas, it is no longer in the CFI's or DPE's hands. So, give them a break. PiC error for a reason.
At least four CFI's signed off on her flying despite obvious video evidence that she was constantly behind the aircraft, and they were not only present to witness it, but were actually performing tasks for her, rather than teaching her what task to perform, why, when, and how. She never proved proficient, and in fact constantly proved deficient. Many of the videos are now removed, but many are still up.
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Seems kind of bizarre to crash like that... would the plane just not pull up? Was she asleep at the wheel?
She had a minimum of 5 degrees nose down in the trim tab (1/2 the max on a Debonaire). Once it went back into a descent, it wasn't long before the speed of the aircraft increased the force on the elevator enough to make it difficult, if not impossible, for her to haul the yoke back. As speed increased, it only got worse. Data shows a rate of descent around 11,000 feet per minute as it was approaching the ground.
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maybe she stoked out from being vaxxed?
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At least four CFI's signed off on her flying despite obvious video evidence that she was constantly behind the aircraft, and they were not only present to witness it, but were actually performing tasks for her, rather than teaching her what task to perform, why, when, and how. She never proved proficient, and in fact constantly proved deficient. Many of the videos are now removed, but many are still up.
Where did you find the info on the 4 CFI's?
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Where did you find the info on the 4 CFI's?
Look at her videos. She even talks about much of it. The videos are being taken down, so you may not find them. She had videos with multiple CFI's showing them literally performing the requisite tasks for her, even repeating radio traffic from ATC, constantly.
I'm not by any stretch saying that she's without fault, she's not. I am just saying that she had a ton of "help" with her faults.
I'm not saying "all" CFI's are bad. But there has long been a problem with an inordinate amount of CFI's who are doing it to accumulate hours for their career. That's a terrible reason to instruct, possibly the worst. I've spent time teaching in my life, not teaching flying, but teaching other things that require a well developed skill set. Some that can get you and/or others hurt if you fail to get it right. Teaching of that nature is something that you should only do if the greatest reason by far is that you have a passion to teach, and pass on skills and knowledge.
A very wise pilot, who spent time as a CFI, once told me, "if you want to learn to fly, and you want to be safe and live, find yourself a CFI in his forties or fifties, with horn rimmed glasses, and a passion for flying and teaching."
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If she is as bad as described, I fault the FAA examiner who, apparently "gave her" the license instead of making her earn it with proper performance.
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If she is as bad as described, I fault the FAA examiner who, apparently "gave her" the license instead of making her earn it with proper performance.
No argument there.
Seriously, this is a terrible thing for general aviation, it really puts it in a terrible light.
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At least four CFI's signed off on her flying despite obvious video evidence that she was constantly behind the aircraft, and they were not only present to witness it, but were actually performing tasks for her, rather than teaching her what task to perform, why, when, and how. She never proved proficient, and in fact constantly proved deficient. Many of the videos are now removed, but many are still up.
I'd still argue that you're being harsh in generalizing. Even if these 4 CFI's did a poor job, that doesn't mean all new CFI's are bad.
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If she is as bad as described, I fault the FAA examiner who, apparently "gave her" the license instead of making her earn it with proper performance.
Why? The DPE would have spent about 4 hours with her going over her logbook, conducting an exam, then conducting a flight review. If she passed all those parts, which is possible, how is it the DPE'S fault. If the DPE passed a pilot who actually failed the exam, fine. But, you can be a poor pilot and pass an exam.
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So.. It's no one's fault that an obviously unqualified person got a pile-it's license.
Good to know.
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I'd still argue that you're being harsh in generalizing. Even if these 4 CFI's did a poor job, that doesn't mean all new CFI's are bad.
And I'd still argue that there's a massive problem. I've seen plenty of evidence. The idea that at least 4 in thee Knoxville area are like that, but it is an isolated problem, has little merit.
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Why? The DPE would have spent about 4 hours with her going over her logbook, conducting an exam, then conducting a flight review. If she passed all those parts, which is possible, how is it the DPE'S fault. If the DPE passed a pilot who actually failed the exam, fine. But, you can be a poor pilot and pass an exam.
If a pilot that can barely have one in ten flights not have a major error at minimum, a serious problem most often, or a crisis on a regular basis, can pass the exam, then there's a serious fault in the test, and or administration thereof.
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I've never taken a pilot's test but I it's anything like a building inspection, they're more in the business of collecting fees than actually making sure everything is good to go.
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And I'd still argue that there's a massive problem. I've seen plenty of evidence. The idea that at least 4 in thee Knoxville area are like that, but it is an isolated problem, has little merit.
Actually, the fact that it's isolated does more to disprove your point. What if they were all trained by the same network instructors and examined by the same examiners or those who came from a similar network. Perhaps East Tennessee is the problem and not the entire country's CFI population under the age of 30.
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I've never taken a pilot's test but I it's anything like a building inspection, they're more in the business of collecting fees than actually making sure everything is good to go.
It's nothing like that at all in my experience. Many pilots fail tests or take more than the minimum hours to qualify because of a lack of proficiency.
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Actually, the fact that it's isolated does more to disprove your point. What if they were all trained by the same network instructors and examined by the same examiners or those who came from a similar network. Perhaps East Tennessee is the problem and not the entire country's CFI population under the age of 30.
You assume it is isolated. There's no proof of that. "What if" certainly provides no proof at all.
These particular individuals are only being exposed because of an exceptionally egregious accident, where the pilot involved has posted massive amounts of video evidence over a period of time.
You seem to be extremely invested in defending the indefensible, rather than correcting the correctable.
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It's nothing like that at all in my experience. Many pilots fail tests or take more than the minimum hours to qualify because of a lack of proficiency.
That's awesome! So... How did this one fall through the cracks?
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You assume it is isolated. There's no proof of that. "What if" certainly provides no proof at all.
These particular individuals are only being exposed because of an exceptionally egregious accident, where the pilot involved has posted massive amounts of video evidence over a period of time.
You seem to be extremely invested in defending the indefensible, rather than correcting the correctable.
Alright Boomer, all CFI's who are young are trash. You win.
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That's awesome! So... How did this one fall through the cracks?
Because all young pilots are bad at piloting, clearly.
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Alright Boomer, all CFI's who are young are trash. You win.
Who said that?
I did not. Nor did I imply that.
You've reduced your argument to pathetic name calling. Congratulations.
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LOL! That is one of the funniest insults ever.
The two funniest I've heard are that one (and I'm a GenXer) Maroon.
I also had a guy once tell me all white people are racist... I didn't tell him that my wife is not white and my kids are bi-racial. Maroon.
I did hear a gen Zer mention how he didn't know how to change a tire like it was too complicated for him. You would think he could have looked it up in a youtube video to find out. Maroon.
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You assume it is isolated. There's no proof of that. "What if" certainly provides no proof at all.
These particular individuals are only being exposed because of an exceptionally egregious accident, where the pilot involved has posted massive amounts of video evidence over a period of time.
You seem to be extremely invested in defending the indefensible, rather than correcting the correctable.
Do you have any proof that it's a widespread problem among the entire country, possibly the world?
I suppose every time there's a car crash, the person who conducted the road test and passed an individual is to blame, even after possibly years of driving?
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Do you have any proof that it's a widespread problem among the entire country, possibly the world?
I suppose every time there's a car crash, the person who conducted the road test and passed an individual is to blame, even after possibly years of driving?
In reviewing a considerable number of the reports, there seems to be a widespread problem. A considerable number of industry experts seem to say so as well.
I never said that the CFI was responsible in every case. Never even hinted that. Never even said that only young CFI's were at fault.
And the operation of a car is not really comparable to the operation of a GA aircraft.
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What passed for a CFI these days is frightening.
I was responding to this, which was a generalization statement. What you said here implied that new CFI's ("these days" referring to the present and not the past) are not proficient or as capable as CFI's of old. My point is that this pilot made poor decisions and got behind the airplane. She was not flying it, she was preoccupied with avionics and other matters. Even if that is a CFI's fault, which I argue it is not, it certainly is not the entire population of new CFIs' fault.
The moment we become pilots, those skills perish if we do not use them and hone them frequently. A CFI and DPE look at boxes, check them, and then test for proficiency. If a pilot checks all these boxes and meets criteria, a license is given. What happens after that is on the pilot. That is my point. New CFIs out there would be offended by your statement. Just because one or two apples in a bushel are rotten, doesn't mean the entire bushel is rotten, damn sure not the entire orchard.
All I tried to point out was that your statement was a generalization and a very unfair one. SOME young CFIs are perhaps not as diligent or as responsible as they should be, but not all. I'd say the same about ALL CFIs, regardless of experience or age.
As for the ad hominem, I'd argue that it was the natural course of this conversation considering your previous reply. I have made my points, you can write them off as rubbish if you like. I have my opinion, you have yours.
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I was responding to this, which was a generalization statement. What you said here implied that new CFI's ("these days" referring to the present and not the past) are not proficient or as capable as CFI's of old. My point is that this pilot made poor decisions and got behind the airplane. She was not flying it, she was preoccupied with avionics and other matters. Even if that is a CFI's fault, which I argue it is not, it certainly is not the entire population of new CFIs' fault.
The moment we become pilots, those skills perish if we do not use them and hone them frequently. A CFI and DPE look at boxes, check them, and then test for proficiency. If a pilot checks all these boxes and meets criteria, a license is given. What happens after that is on the pilot. That is my point. New CFIs out there would be offended by your statement. Just because one or two apples in a bushel are rotten, doesn't mean the entire bushel is rotten, damn sure not the entire orchard.
All I tried to point out was that your statement was a generalization and a very unfair one. SOME young CFIs are perhaps not as diligent or as responsible as they should be, but not all. I'd say the same about ALL CFIs, regardless of experience or age.
As for the ad hominem, I'd argue that it was the natural course of this conversation considering your previous reply. I have made my points, you can write them off as rubbish if you like. I have my opinion, you have yours.
You go watch the videos posted by the dead pilot (TNflygirl), with multiple CFI's present in the cockpit, and tell us how great they did teaching her. If they couldn't teach her, it was their responsibility to report her as being unsafe. They failed that, too. While you're at it, tell us that only those CFI's are like that.
If I were a CFI, what I'd be offended by is that there were people out there turning out pilots like that, holding the same certificate I did, and earning money doing it.
As for the ad hominem, it shows exactly what your argument is, if it is written off as rubbish, well.......
My argument is that there are people out there making the skies more dangerous than they should be, and anyone flying should be more worried about that than how offended people are. Offended is survivable. Dead isn't. By definition.
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And the operation of a car is not really comparable to the operation of a GA aircraft.
Why not? They are both complex machines. They both require a written and practical test to operate legally. They both present the opportunity to harm the operator or others if operated improperly.
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Why not? They are both complex machines. They both require a written and practical test to operate legally. They both present the opportunity to harm the operator or others if operated improperly.
You should know the answer. And if you don't, there's no need to expand on the subject.
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You go watch the videos posted by the dead pilot (TNflygirl), with multiple CFI's present in the cockpit, and tell us how great they did teaching her. If they couldn't teach her, it was their responsibility to report her as being unsafe. They failed that, too. While you're at it, tell us that only those CFI's are like that.
If I were a CFI, what I'd be offended by is that there were people out there turning out pilots like that, holding the same certificate I did, and earning money doing it.
As for the ad hominem, it shows exactly what your argument is, if it is written off as rubbish, well.......
My argument is that there are people out there making the skies more dangerous than they should be, and anyone flying should be more worried about that than how offended people are. Offended is survivable. Dead isn't. By definition.
I'll grant you that some CFIs are poor at their craft. And that number is alarmingly large. But, I won't say that it's most of the CFI population. You generalized a large portion of the entire CFI population and I tried to point out that that isn't fair. Most CFIs are excellent at what they do and they provide a rigorous course to their trainees. Disagree if you like.
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I'll grant you that some CFIs are poor at their craft. And that number is alarmingly large. But, I won't say that it's most of the CFI population. You generalized a large portion of the entire CFI population and I tried to point out that that isn't fair. Most CFIs are excellent at what they do and they provide a rigorous course to their trainees. Disagree if you like.
You assumed that generalization. I didn't say "all". Therein lies the problem. As you admit, the number of bad CFI's is alarmingly large. Meaning that a large number of them "passed as a CFI." And that is what I said. That's a reflection on the system, and not the good CFI's. I will agree that some are excellent. I wish most were. If most were, excellence would be average. That would be awesome. And this discussion would never have happened.
The point here is that at least four CFI's saw obviously bad flying. Not only did they not fix it, they often exacerbated it, and they also failed to report it. Worse still, in 400 flying and training hours (most of her videos featured a CFI), she got precious little good training. If she had 6 CFI's, and I think the number is 5-6, and 4 failed that badly, those odds are horrific. That number should scare anyone who flies, or wants to, and piss them off.
I love aircraft. I like to see them flying. Or on display. I've seen far too many, in person, lying in pieces, with bodies in and around them. Too often easily preventable. And I'm not saying that CFI's are the only problem. Complacency and hubris are big factors.
See, I do not take people calling out a profession as an insult, even when the profession is my own. When people say that mechanics are bad, I agree. And I'm not offended by it. Why? Because I know they're bad. I clean up after them. I see the damage they do. It was the same when I was an electrician. And when I drove a truck. And when I was in law enforcement. The bad ones make everything extremely difficult for the rest. I want them called out. Consistently. Constantly. I taught/trained in those professions. And I had no problem being the jerk that washed out the ones who could not or would not get it. I hope I made a difference. I wish that I could be sure that I never let any bad ones slip through.
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Watching even a few of those videos are enlightenning.
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Alright fellas, this has gone on long enough,
Shut er' down skuzz!
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I've never taken a pilot's test but I it's anything like a building inspection, they're more in the business of collecting fees than actually making sure everything is good to go.
Like "I found some things that you need to correct before you pass inspection, BUUUUUUT I might be able to find a way to make it pass *wink wink*"
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The accident rate for U.S. General Aviation has actually been trending downwards for quite a few years - at a snails pace grant you.
The Private Pilot license, Instrument rating, the initial CFI, and your first Type Rating are the hardest tickets to get. Each one requires learning something new and unique. Any person that earned any of those tickets, put in countless hours of book time, physical effort, and sweat getting em. In other words I think TNFlyGirl earned it.
Sure, there will always be bad pilots, CFI's, and easy DPE's. To imply they are being pumped out like widgets in a factory making the sky unsafe?? Not in my experience, and the numbers do not suggest that.
If a person earns their CFI, they have more knowledge about the fundamentals than most, regardless if they are good/ bad instructor. The good thing about Aviation, most of these "bad people" attempt to move up, and either get screened out, put in their place, or they get better.
When a person earns their Private Pilot License it use to come with the disclaimer: You just earned your "License to learn".
Although I didn't care for TNFlyGirl putting out videos that say "look at me, look at me". For better or worse, she appeared to be doing things right. She sought out advanced training, she learned to fly different, bigger, and faster airplanes, eventually purchasing one. She took extra instruction and time to learn her plane. She hired CFI's to help her with things she did not understand. Kind of hard to blame a person for tryin to improve their skills and learn more.
Was she a safe pilot? I dont know that. Was she a bad Pilot? I dont know that either. From the videos I watched, she racked up 400+ hours in less than 18 months. Thats on average of 20 hours a month which isnt too bad. She clearly showed enthusiasm to fly, to learn, and be better. She demonstrated a lack of knowledge, and clearly showed inexperience, however, there is a difference between an inexperienced pilot and a bad pilot.
I would prefer an inexperienced Pilot thats willing to learn, over a Pilot that thinks there is no room for improvement, not open to suggestion, critique, or simply think they know all they need to know. A poor attitude that IMHO can make for a bad pilot.
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The problem with some bad teachers is that they're teaching subjects where failing while being "passed" often has fatal results.
I don't fault TNflygirl for trying, for hiring CFI's, for trying to find one who could teach her, or even trying to get her plane "fixed". I do fault her for moving up to a much higher performing and complex aircraft, knowing full well she had not mastered an entry level aircraft. And I fault her for trying to use an autopilot instead of mastering hand flying. She created a tragedy, with plenty of help. It's fortunate that the tragedy was as limited in scope as it was, even thought it was tragic enough, on its own. Honestly, an inexperienced pilot who knows they haven't mastered all the skills, but decides to move to a more advanced aircraft, absolutely is a bad pilot.
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Was she a safe pilot?
The jury is in. No.
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In any case, the plane hit at such and angle and with such force, much of the evidence was destroyed. They did recover some cameras,