General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: artik on April 14, 2024, 02:40:52 AM
Title: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 14, 2024, 02:40:52 AM
Considering that most of drones and cruise missiles were shot down outside Israeli air-space it seems a significant part was shut down by aircraft. It looks like it was one of the biggest drone shooting by aircraft since WW2 spitfires, tempests and meteors shutting down V1s...
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Eagler on April 14, 2024, 08:40:12 AM
Weird to think ww3 might be a drone war to start out with....
Eagler
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 14, 2024, 08:47:28 AM
..and that’s the event that could start the end for most everyone on the planet.
But, the lessons for Iran are likely to be more telling.
Puma do you still have that genie in a bottle?
<S>
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 15, 2024, 12:37:42 PM
I really won't mind seeing Iran get spanked.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 15, 2024, 12:48:47 PM
In my opinion, this Iranian response was purely:
1. Performative kabuki for their domestic audience. They had to do something and make it look impressive. but come on. Half of what they launched was slow propellor driven stuff with a 9 hr flight time and they announced at launch.
2. Creates an awkward situation for the Saudis and other Muslims who have been improving relations with Israel. Create a wedge issue that forces them to pull back or anger their own street.
Seems to me it was mostly for show and measured to not really go for the throat. And carefully telegraphed to all parties especially the US.
Full scale war at the moment isn't really to Iran's advantage at the moment. Israel has bigger fish to fry. US has an election coming up and doesn't need to hassle.
My guess is everyone has gotten a shove in and proved their manliness. Everyone will put their joysticks back in their trousers move back to the normal level of tit-for-tat.
Of course, someone could get stupid.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: fudgums on April 15, 2024, 12:50:07 PM
Political Theatre was all it was.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 15, 2024, 12:56:49 PM
Iran has long been attacking Israel through proxies. Everyone knows this. Iran blundered in giving Israel complete justification for some long overdue payback.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 15, 2024, 01:00:55 PM
If Israel launched 300 missiles at Iran and all of them got through and leveled Tehran would that be different from the 300+ missiles Iran launched at Israel?
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 15, 2024, 01:13:56 PM
I think it more likely Israel will attack with manned aircraft and bomb various strategic assets.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 15, 2024, 01:39:51 PM
I think it more likely Israel will attack with manned aircraft and bomb various strategic assets.
Since none of the Iranian drones got lucky (by design) and nothing dropped on a bomb shelter with women and kids in it, I think that would be unwise.
It would complicate US continued support. I think the US has signaled their limits very carefully. Another Israeli response would have to be seen as clear escalation.
If there had been real damage, Israel would have had no choice. Here, I think they now have a choice to hold the line.
But it is the mid-East so who knows.
(Not that Iran doesn't deserve it.)
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 15, 2024, 01:54:17 PM
and nothing dropped on a bomb shelter with women and kids in it
Actually there is a 7 years old poor Israeli-Arab girl fighting for her live these days. It wasn't "nothing".
We here anxiously waited for many days for these attacks to come. it was known that missiles are coming and some couldn't get a sleep. We spent huge amount of our taxpayers money on defense missiles.
And what is also important kindergartens and schools were closed for a day and a half so they pis..ed off lots of Israeli moms and dads. :mad:
It was serious... In this Middle-Eastern puddle you don't live such a thing without a response.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 15, 2024, 01:57:14 PM
On another note - there lots of interviews with pilots that shut down these drones.
It was like a huge turkey shot and it felt like - ohhh finally after all these years of training we can finally shoot stuff down and there are plenty :x
And some are likely done with guns. Watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEkmq0CucCc there is a comment in Hebrew "I recommend doing it with ...s" and no missile track after wards. I strongly suspect it was gun kill
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 15, 2024, 02:19:25 PM
But not enough to trigger a full-scale regional war over.
This is biggest misconception - there is a full scale regional war. Lebanon, Syria, Hizballa, Houthis and even to certain extent Hamas are proxies of Iran. Iran shutting down commerce in Suez Chanel (via proxy), Iran develops nukes for a reason. Israel is easy and close target but just because US is too far away. There is a good reason that Jordanian air force participated in shutting down drones
And of course not talking about Russia-Iran-N.Korea axis.
It is full scale war, actually treating it as such instead of being ignorant would be a good thing - as we all learned to well from history being Chamberlain does not really pay off.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 15, 2024, 02:44:13 PM
This is biggest misconception - there is a full scale regional war. Lebanon, Syria, Hizballa, Houthis and even to certain extent Hamas are proxies of Iran.
I understand. But proxie wars are not the same as direct peer-2-peer.
My point isn't that Iran doesn't deserve it, but that I don't think a further open response, at this particular time, would be in Israel's interest.
That would be putting the US (vital to Israel) in a very tough spot. We have a domestic audience as well.
It would lose Israel more than it gains them. They could hold the line until after the US election, keep US support, finish up in Gaza, and simply pick another general for targeted-killing later as payback.
"One may choose to serve their emotions, or their interests. Seldom both at the same time." - Caesar
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 15, 2024, 03:47:33 PM
I didn't say that how and when Israel response is need to be emotional. Clearly not. Revenge must be served cold.
But just to say... it is long due the "full scale regional war". p2p with Iran is complicated since we don't have the power projection level USA or even UK has. But Iran does project power via proxies and it makes it even more critical to go to the root cause instead of fighting the minions.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 15, 2024, 04:00:50 PM
I expect we won't have to wait long to find out.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 15, 2024, 06:01:07 PM
Did you see the Israeli estimate on the cost of the missiles used to defend? It didn't include the US tax payer money spent. Heard they're about to send another eleventy billion to Ukraine. We don't have money for the US boarder though.
Might want to pick up some extra shifts to cover the taxes...
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: FLOOB on April 15, 2024, 06:35:57 PM
Right because lack of funding is the cause of the border/immigration political schism.
Those missiles were already paid for, not using them would’ve been a waste. Saving innocent people from being murdered.. of all the stupid things to waste my tax dollars on..
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 15, 2024, 07:53:53 PM
Right because lack of funding is the cause of the border/immigration political schism.
Those missiles were already paid for, not using them would’ve been a waste. Saving innocent people from being murdered.. of all the stupid things to waste my tax dollars on..
Right, we spend our tax dollars on other countries and not taking care of our own... Israel gonna need over a billion to replace those missiles they shot. Better fire up the printing press. Who knows maybe they can print enough to cause hyperinflation. A bunch of the world is moving out of the dollar. Stuff gonna get real expensive when all those federal reserve notes come flooding back to the US.
Might need to pick up some extra shifts and some gold. The military industrial complex is gonna be building more missiles and hopefully the politicians only take 10% for a kickback!
While we're on that subject did you see that the requirement for a warrant to spy on Americans got shot down. Surely you will defend that too even though people on both sides voted against it?
Hope you Red team, Blue team guys figure it out one day that both sides are working together to screw you. They're just making it look like they disagree. That Red team speaker guy said for years that he was a constitutional lawyer and against warrantless spying on Americans but he cast the vote to defeat the amendment. Go figure.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Oldman731 on April 15, 2024, 08:43:18 PM
In this Middle-Eastern puddle you don't live such a thing without a response.
Magnificent summary.
And also a lesson why the Mideast is a lock with no key.
For the near future, we need the oil, and we need to disrupt the international terrorists who are just itching to pull off another 9/11. Israel is our only friend in those endeavors. Aid to Israel is a pathetically small percentage of our budget. There shouldn't be any question on this.
- oldman
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 15, 2024, 10:12:08 PM
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Maverick on April 17, 2024, 10:07:52 AM
I have no doubt that there will be a response to the drone / missile attack. Not responding, even though the attack was embarrassingly ineffective, would be seen as weakness by the "players". The end game for the arabs, especially hamas and hezbola is the elimination of Israel, period end of story. I know several arab countries are "making nice" but I would not turn my back on them if I were Israel.
I rather expect a calculated and very precise response. Probably on the general in charge of drones and the one in charge of missiles. I have no doubt they know that Israel knows who they are and they are hiding as deep as they can get.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 17, 2024, 10:11:03 AM
Iran seemingly offered "peace" when they said they consider the matter concluded. Then they just said they will destroy Israel if there is the "tiniest invasion". Iran has long talked a big game. Does anyone believe anything they say?
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: sparky127 on April 17, 2024, 11:10:34 AM
Welp.. that's about enough..
Shut er' down Skuz!
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: icepac on April 17, 2024, 11:55:01 AM
1. Performative kabuki for their domestic audience. They had to do something and make it look impressive. but come on. Half of what they launched was slow propellor driven stuff with a 9 hr flight time and they announced at launch.
2. Creates an awkward situation for the Saudis and other Muslims who have been improving relations with Israel. Create a wedge issue that forces them to pull back or anger their own street.
Seems to me it was mostly for show and measured to not really go for the throat. And carefully telegraphed to all parties especially the US.
Full scale war at the moment isn't really to Iran's advantage at the moment. Israel has bigger fish to fry. US has an election coming up and doesn't need to hassle.
My guess is everyone has gotten a shove in and proved their manliness. Everyone will put their joysticks back in their trousers move back to the normal level of tit-for-tat.
Of course, someone could get stupid.
What all bad the actors are doing is sapping resources of the US. It goes along with soldier age young men from china who will likely be activated into shooting up power transmission stations.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 17, 2024, 01:24:45 PM
All fun and games 'til someone gets a nuke in the eye.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Tumor on April 18, 2024, 12:12:00 AM
Iran seemingly offered "peace" when they said they consider the matter concluded. Then they just said they will destroy Israel if there is the "tiniest invasion". Iran has long talked a big game. Does anyone believe anything they say?
Nah. Doubt it.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Eagler on April 18, 2024, 07:03:52 AM
At some point I hope they don't show us just how far they are along in their nuke program we have assisted with billions of $$$$
Eagler
It's Iran. If they could, they would. It's who they are.... and it ain't like they haven't been saying what they want to do for decades. Centuries? I don't even know.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 18, 2024, 03:36:47 PM
All fun and games 'til someone gets a nuke in the eye.
Aye, we're probably getting as close as we were in the 60ies except now there are no maintained fallout shelters. Heck I bet anybody under 40 has ever done a "duck and cover drill" (not that it would have helped) I remember sitting under my desk in grade school thinking: "this isn't going to help much."
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Meatwad on April 18, 2024, 04:02:50 PM
Civil defense in general and the survivability of the country is now less important then making everyone drive electric cars and buy solar panels
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: AKIron on April 18, 2024, 04:03:04 PM
They marched us into the halls where we knelt along the walls and put our hands over our necks. This was in case of tornados. Being in Dallas that made it plausible.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on April 18, 2024, 06:55:03 PM
Was listening to a report today. An examination of the drones downed in both Israel AND Ukraine (Russian drones) found they are chock full of parts made in the west, including in the U.S.
It seems they're being pretty lax on the export restrictions. Lax to an exceptionally stupid level.
So, we're funding both sides of two wars. Not surprising at this point, given the level of criminal corruption in our government.
I have little problem with funding nations that are resisting Russia (today's Russia is little different from 1939 Russia, that allied itself with Nazi Germany), or Russian proxies (Russia backs Iran with supplies), but I do have a problem with funding/supplying both sides. As well as the blank check given Ukraine, with little accountability. Putin is little, if any better than Stalin. I'm good with keeping them in check and bleeding them financially.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Tumor on April 18, 2024, 10:39:39 PM
Ya'll got your bunkers stocked?
I think it's on. :salute :noid :salute
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 19, 2024, 12:29:58 AM
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Eagler on April 19, 2024, 08:09:47 AM
Printing money to fund both sides of the war...
This has to turn out well...
It's all proxy until NY or LA goes the fallout route..
Eagler
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Meatwad on April 19, 2024, 09:25:38 AM
How long will it be before zelensky starts screaming that everyone isnt paying enough attention to him anymore and he needs another 100 billion in support
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 19, 2024, 09:31:47 AM
Aye, we're probably getting as close as we were in the 60ies except now there are no maintained fallout shelters. Heck I bet anybody under 40 has ever done a "duck and cover drill" (not that it would have helped) I remember sitting under my desk in grade school thinking: "this isn't going to help much."
You say so...
In Israel every school, kindergarten and almost every modern home has shelter or so called safe room built of concrete. Everybody is drilled (including small kids in a kindergarten) to go to shelter upon air alarm. And time notice is quite short. For my place it is around 1m 30s when there is a fire from Gaza.
And ohh boy we use it frequently :angry:
Quote
"duck and cover drill" (not that it would have helped)
Actually if you aren't in the epicenter of nuclear blast it will. Reduce direct radiation heat, reduce chance of wave etc.
Of course also in conventional bomb/rocket situation it helps since wall gives better protection than windows.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 19, 2024, 09:37:43 AM
How long will it be before zelensky starts screaming that everyone isnt paying enough attention to him anymore and he needs another 100 billion in support
You still don't get it?
You pay with military equipment to save later NATO soldier lives if Ukraine falls. It is better to give the damn missiles, shells and F-16s long time ago because later you'll pay way-way-way more on investments in military and likely with human lives.
Not solving the major problem now is always pays off as history shows :bhead
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Shuffler on April 19, 2024, 10:36:45 AM
Our enemies are already in place throughout our country. Better think more like Red Dawn. It has been a simple task for them.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Meatwad on April 19, 2024, 10:42:53 AM
The situation in ukraine is NOT the problem of the united states, and the usa is not the worlds police force. we have no business in that country. If it was in NATO, then yes it would be supported. But since it isnt, its not our problem. the usa just wants to be in a proxy war with russia to see how well our weapons defeat russian armor and air. we sent so much crap over there now it will take years to rebuild our stockpiles. but it is our problem now when certain high profile people in the usa was using their crime family ties for fraud over there. if the toejam hits the fan here, we wont have anything left to fight with since it was sent to the european black hole to end up on black market arms sites
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 19, 2024, 12:41:08 PM
If it was in NATO, then yes it would be supported.
Will it? Or will the argument simply become, "Why are we in NATO? What about our border? Why aren't we spending money here instead of saving NATO countries?"
They try and imply that screw Ukraine, but they'll suddenly fight like heck to support...Romania. Or Latvia, or Estonia, or Lithuania? I don't buy it. They'll simply reuse the same arguments.
Now if the argument truly is, "screw all our Euro allies or Taiwan even. Spend the money here." That is an argument that would at least be honest and internally consistent. Then we can debate that. But lets be honest about what the true, America First (goes back to pre-WWII) position is.
They will not suddenly draw the line at Romania.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Meatwad on April 19, 2024, 01:44:32 PM
Apparently speaking out against dumping american resources in ukraine gets reported because it hurted feelings........
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 19, 2024, 02:04:44 PM
The situation in ukraine is NOT the problem of the united states, and the usa is not the worlds police force. we have no business in that country.
Supplying/giving away weapons isn't being a police force.
But even speaking from truly $$$ perspective. What happens if Ukraine falls and Russia is on the borders of NATO allies - Romania, Poland. What do you think will be the spending on NATO for US and European tax payers.
Quote
If it was in NATO, then yes it would be supported. But since it isnt, its not our problem.
Yeah Czechoslovakia wasn't UK problem as well, till it become
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Tumor on April 19, 2024, 02:21:49 PM
What happens when NATO is on the border of Russia?
heh... see what I did right there? :bolt:
Wrong quote:
Quote
What happens if Ukraine falls and Russia is on the borders of NATO allies - Romania, Poland
It isn't the same as current NATO borders with Russia.
We have enough of our problems to deal with. Just I wouldn't recommend sticking the head into the sand. Cause it always ends well :airplane:
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on April 19, 2024, 07:23:05 PM
The premise that Putin just doesn't want NATO on the border with Russia is just another Putin lie. He wants to annex Ukraine, just like Georgia, and take Russia back to it's "lost glory". It's about expansion. First he claimed it was because Ukraine applied to NATO. Then he claimed it was about "nazis", then he claimed it was about some people on the border of Ukraine and Russia. It's simple. Just like 1939 simple. Russia has goals of expansion, control, and power. Bet on it. Putin is Stalin in a nice suit. He's old school KGB.
FYI, I have no problem with differing opinions. I completely understand the reluctance to spend money on Ukraine. I'm skeptical as well. And no fan of Zelensky. He's just not as problematic as an expansion seeking KGB Putin.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Tumor on April 19, 2024, 10:08:02 PM
The premise that Putin just doesn't want NATO on the border with Russia is just another Putin lie. He wants to annex Ukraine, just like Georgia, and take Russia back to it's "lost glory". It's about expansion. First he claimed it was because Ukraine applied to NATO. Then he claimed it was about "nazis", then he claimed it was about some people on the border of Ukraine and Russia. It's simple. Just like 1939 simple. Russia has goals of expansion, control, and power. Bet on it. Putin is Stalin in a nice suit. He's old school KGB.
FYI, I have no problem with differing opinions. I completely understand the reluctance to spend money on Ukraine. I'm skeptical as well. And no fan of Zelensky. He's just not as problematic as an expansion seeking KGB Putin.
It's no single thing. Every single thing we hear is Propaganda, ~every~single~thing. Regardless, NATO creep is a huge part of what's happening. And we had a sort of deal, and we sort of reneged. Kinda like plausible deniability for all. Either way, Putin or any other Russian leader would be out of their mind to be A-OK with NATO sitting next door.... especially when 1/2 the population of the main force behind NATO screams Russia every time someone farts in an elevator. Not to mention, Nuclear Deterrence is still a thing, not matter what ~anyone~ says. And remember, those people over there... they think in Centuries that go back MANY before our happy little corner of history was a passing dream. There's far more to this than Russia wanting Ukraine. Russia see's Ukraine AS Russia. But hey, that doesn't fit the narrative.
There's is a huge gap in far-Western thinking... we simply don't understand the history over there, and it's massive. It's the same reason why/how China is making us look like fools. It's only partially their doing, we're real good at doing it all by ourselves.
We all live in our own box. As difficult and uncomfortable as it is, I still try hard to step outside of mine as often as possible.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Shuffler on April 20, 2024, 04:53:54 AM
Personally, l don't trust NATO any more than Russia.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Eagler on April 20, 2024, 06:45:08 AM
Have to give the patriotic propaganda boys credit..they have made defending one of the most corrupt nations in the world required or you are automatically a Russian bot...and are silenced
There were ways out of the conflict before it started..
They were ignored
We are on the doorstep of ww3 now
Wtg!
Eagler
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 20, 2024, 08:15:03 AM
Have to give the patriotic propaganda boys credit..they have made defending one of the most corrupt nations in the world required or you are automatically a Russian bot...and are silenced
There were ways out of the conflict before it started..
They were ignored
We are on the doorstep of ww3 now
Wtg!
Eagler
Who is defending Ukraine?
I said Russia is worse. I never said Ukraine was not corrupt. Certain people "in power" in the U.S. have helped make it more corrupt.
But if you think having Russia control it will make that better.......
Under Putin, Russia is still the same Russia that, if it had an ally like Nazi Germany, would still try to take over Europe. Or, if they thought they could pull it off without an ally.They'll still try it incrementally. What's next, after Ukraine? If you think there isn't a plan for the next step, you're only fooling yourself.
And here's something really patriotic: Right now, with those same people "in power", the U.S. isn't much, if any, less corrupt than Ukraine. Yall think about that.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on April 20, 2024, 08:59:47 AM
Why weren't western nations interested in this option?
Blood and war and profit must have sounded better...especially to those not actually fighting and dying
Eagler
You think Putin negotiates in good faith? Remember, this is a guy who somehow wins with 80% of the popular vote. And his opponents have a serious proclivity to prematurely reach room temperature. Often "in custody". It's easy to sell out people you don't know for "peace". Ask Chamberlain. It rarely works. Appeasement is a lousy foreign policy. It results in stronger enemies more emboldened.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Eagler on April 20, 2024, 09:21:03 AM
This planet and its ppl at it's current level or lack of enlightenment is geared towards war more than peace
We are on our present course as we aren't capable of anything else
Eagler
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on April 20, 2024, 10:08:01 AM
This planet and its ppl at it's current level or lack of enlightenment is geared towards war more than peace
We are on our present course as we aren't capable of anything else
Eagler
Doesn't apply to all people and all nations. Only some nations actively seek expansion, subjugation, or outright elimination of other nations or people. Oddly enough, they seem to be allies. They also seem to have one man, or one party, or one religion rule. Funny how that seems to work. Almost like totalitarianism is a bad thing.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 20, 2024, 10:50:49 AM
I find it interesting that it was never once mentioned that during the reunification of German NATO promised Russia that they wouldn't expand "not one inch eastward"
U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
Yet we are trying to get Ukraine into NATO so we can put nukes on Russia's border. I doubt we would stand by if Mexico allied with Russia and Russia was gong to put nukes in Mexico.
Sometimes it's useful to consider that what the TV tells you is "a story" and not always "the story"
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 20, 2024, 11:27:49 AM
I find it interesting that it was never once mentioned that during the reunification of German NATO promised Russia that they wouldn't expand "not one inch eastward"
U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
Yet we are trying to get Ukraine into NATO so we can put nukes on Russia's border. I doubt we would stand by if Mexico allied with Russia and Russia was gong to put nukes in Mexico.
Sometimes it's useful to consider that what the TV tells you is "a story" and not always "the story"
That was debunked by Gorbachev himself (There is a German mag interview out there). What was agreed to was no non-German NATO troops would move east into East Germany.
No agreement was made about other former Soviet states and none would have been agreed upon.
Quote
Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”
Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.
{Link to original source within...} https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ (https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/)
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 20, 2024, 12:03:16 PM
We can both find documents to support both sides of this. For example: The Strobe Talbott account of the October 22nd meeting with Yeltsin is more detailed and nuanced than Christopher’s, but also leaves the impression that Yeltsin heard only what he wanted to hear...
However this is not my point.
My point is that the US would not agree to Mexico joining Russia and putting nukes in Mexico any more then we could accept Russian nukes in Cuba. However we expect Russia to accept nukes in Ukraine which would have less then a 10 minute flight time to Moscow.
Seems people think it's normal for the US to start a nuclear war over Russian missiles in Cuba but it's completely unreasonable for Russia to say anything about NATO missiles in Ukraine...
This is my final post on this matter as I'm trying to make a point on hypocrisy, not argue the details of who said exactly what and who heard exactly what about what was said.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 20, 2024, 12:14:25 PM
This is my final post on this matter as I'm trying to make a point on hypocrisy, not argue the details of who said exactly what and who heard exactly what about what was said.
You are free to have whatever opinion you want about general human hypocrisy. But opinions aren't facts, and facts aren't opinion.
The facts are there was never any agreement to not expand NATO membership to former Soviet states. The Russian president himself, who signed the actual treaties in question, has confirmed this. No such signed treaty can be shown because no such treaty exists. Nor does anyone there in the room at the time claim there was.
Those that tried to tell you that are lying and you should think very carefully about why they would want to lie about that to you.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: hazmatt on April 20, 2024, 01:00:13 PM
Unlike you I admit that this is my opinion.
It appears that you have a monopoly on "facts"
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 20, 2024, 01:14:17 PM
Are you saying it is only my opinion that there is no signed treaty blocking NATO expansion into Former Soviet states?
Do you have a link to that signed treaty? That is not an opinion. It is an objective fact. The treaty exists or it doesn't, right?
You can have your opinions, but we have to be able to share objective fact or else rational discussion is impossible.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 20, 2024, 01:23:27 PM
This was the agreement:
Quote
The agreement on not deploying foreign troops on the territory of the former GDR was incorporated in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, which was signed on September 12, 1990 by the foreign ministers of the two Germanys, the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France. Article 5 had three provisions:
* Until Soviet forces had completed their withdrawal from the former GDR, only German territorial defense units not integrated into NATO would be deployed in that territory. * There would be no increase in the numbers of troops or equipment of U.S., British and French forces stationed in Berlin. * Once Soviet forces had withdrawn, German forces assigned to NATO could be deployed in the former GDR, but foreign forces and nuclear weapons systems would not be deployed there.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: artik on April 20, 2024, 04:19:33 PM
Just small note to all who claim it is because of NATO expansion...
Russian-Ukrainian war had started way before 2022. It started in 2014 when Crimea was annexed and invasion to Donbas started. In 2014 nobody in Ukraine talked about NATO or Army or was remotely interested in it. There of course was discussion about European Union but not NATO. Finally there was infamous Budapest memorandum.
It is all about restoration of Soviet Union/Russian Empire by former KGB agent who didn't manage to live the former glory. As simple as it gets. You probably need to know better about internal former USSR politics to see how obvious it is. But it is way-way simpler.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: CptTrips on April 20, 2024, 04:41:21 PM
Just small note to all who claim it is because of NATO expansion...
Russian-Ukrainian war had started way before 2022. It started in 2014 when Crimea was annexed and invasion to Donbas started. In 2014 nobody in Ukraine talked about NATO or Army or was remotely interested in it. There of course was discussion about European Union but not NATO. Finally there was infamous Budapest memorandum.
It is all about restoration of Soviet Union/Russian Empire by former KGB agent who didn't manage to live the former glory. As simple as it gets. You probably need to know better about internal former USSR politics to see how obvious it is. But it is way-way simpler.
And he obviously won't stop at Ukraine.
Transnistria would be the next easiest low fruit. Poor, oppressed ethnic Russians were planted there years ago waiting for this. That eventually will involve the parts of Romania Putin is interested in. Bessarabian Gap.
Later, will make up casus belli against Poland. Aiding Ukrainian Partisan Resistance I expect. Polish Gap
Eventually there will be ethnic Russians in Kaliningrad Oblast being oppressed. Putin will have no choice but to go into Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania to protect them. Baltic Coast.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Tumor on April 20, 2024, 04:50:21 PM
You are either missing, or intentionally avoiding his point.
Just saying.
No, I'm saying there is no point to discussing his opinions if we can't agree upon a couple of fundamental objective facts.
He said I won't admit it is just my opinion that there was no treaty of NATO promising to never accept former Soviet states. That isn't an opinion. It is an object fact.
The reason that is important, is that several of these discussions as you drill down on "opinions" on Ukraine, many are distorted by the believe that we had broken a signed treaty never to expand NATO into former Soviet states. That's how they justify Putin's actions. Putin is supposed to be the aggrieved party.
So before we discuss any opinions on Ukraine it is a good idea to establish the facts that no such treaty has ever existed. It is Russian mis-information. And if someone won't just stipulate an obvious objective fact, opinions are uninformed and just noise. And certainly no opinion should be based on Russian mis-information.
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Meatwad on April 20, 2024, 06:57:14 PM
We can both find documents to support both sides of this. For example: The Strobe Talbott account of the October 22nd meeting with Yeltsin is more detailed and nuanced than Christopher’s, but also leaves the impression that Yeltsin heard only what he wanted to hear...
However this is not my point.
My point is that the US would not agree to Mexico joining Russia and putting nukes in Mexico any more then we could accept Russian nukes in Cuba. However we expect Russia to accept nukes in Ukraine which would have less then a 10 minute flight time to Moscow.
Seems people think it's normal for the US to start a nuclear war over Russian missiles in Cuba but it's completely unreasonable for Russia to say anything about NATO missiles in Ukraine...
This is my final post on this matter as I'm trying to make a point on hypocrisy, not argue the details of who said exactly what and who heard exactly what about what was said.
Wouldnt have to go as far as nukes in mexico, that would be far too noticeable. Easier to do what they are doing now, crossing the southern border illegally by the tens of thousands claiming "asylum" until they have enough of them in the country staged, armed, and ready to go, then all of a sudden there is a country wide Guerrilla warfare event happening within the US borders all over the country which will paralize this country. It is a very real possibility since the leaders of this country allow the floods of illegals to come here along with their 3rd world diseases because they are too scared to hurt feelings by trying to stop it
Title: Re: How fun is it to see F-15s, F-16 and F-35 coming back without missiles?
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on April 20, 2024, 07:58:28 PM