General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on April 02, 2025, 08:37:42 PM
Title: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Vulcan on April 02, 2025, 08:37:42 PM
Hello all, sitting across the world in little old NZ I wanted to point something out to some of my Americans friends that I'm sure many understand, but not all do.
Over the years my little old country of New Zealand has gradually decreased import duties/tariffs to almost nothing. All we pay on most goods nowadays is GST (Goods and Services Tax, also called VAT in some countries, sales tax in US states iirc). This is good, as when I was young in the 70s we had huge duties on stuff like electronics. The reason was protectionism for local industry. But the reality was a huge duty on TV imports because someone in our local industry thought one day they might make a TV, or made radios and radios=tv (politican minds) there we should put a duty on TV imports.
So over the years the duties/tariffs have disappeared and that made us Kiwis happy.
Why did it make us happy, well many of the goods that had tariffs applied to them just weren't available from local manufacturers - or the ones they did make were of dubious quality or lacked the same features.
The cold hard reality was the only people that benefited from the duties/tariffs were... the government. Because the people who paid for the tariffs were not the people who exported the goods to NZ, but us... the local kiwis. So if an imported TV cost $1000 NZ pesos, and the tariff was 30%, then us Kiwis paid $1300. Of that $1000 went to the people who made the TV, and $300 went to the government.
Now to be honest, the removal of all tariffs did end up killing some local industries. But we diversified and focused on what we do well - instead of doing a half arse job of things we are not good at. But I just wanted to point out that for me, in NZ, tariffs were always a form of tax against us kiwis ... not the foreign manufacturers. And I was glad to see them go, there were some quite horrific duties on computer gear for a while.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Busher on April 02, 2025, 08:46:56 PM
No one wins a trade war and it's the little people that get hurt the worst.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Spikes on April 02, 2025, 09:16:34 PM
No one wins a trade war and it's the little people that get hurt the worst.
Indeed. Government and millionaires won't feel a thing.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 02, 2025, 09:20:15 PM
Tariffs are a consumption tax on the consumer.
Tariffs are the gateway drug to a command economy.
Tariffs are highly inflationary at a time when the Fed is still trying to get inflation under control. They will have no choice but to raise rates or at least stop lowering them.
Will be interesting to see how your investments are going in 18 months.
Trying to remake the world's economy in the scant year and a half left to this Congress is optimistic.
Can't think of a nicer way to put it.
Well, I'm not chained to any position. I review the market and my investments at least once a week now. If my thesis ceases to make sense, I will re-evaluate re-allocate. I have no loyalty or emotional stake in my investments. I would buy Satan's own stock if I though it would make me solid 15%. I don't invest long or short on ideology.
I went short last Nov. Well, 70% money market ( I was a teen last time I saw MM pay out like this with near zero risk), but my only investment outside of the money market is net short. I have no long equities now.
I didn't know the exact details, but it as obvious for at least 2 years it would a goat rodeo of cataclysmically bad decision making and tariffs and trade-wars and wealth destruction. National wealth destruction on a biblical scale. I didn't vote for it. I don't want it to happen. It's going to be heartbreaking to watch people's lives destroyed. Way too many people have been sleep-walking their investments.
However, it is all completely out of my control. I'm not hurting those people. Whether or not I find a way to profit on the coming misery, will make no difference to the outcome. So, I might as well profit off it if I can.
Of course this isn't near the end of it. This was just the fist cannon shot at Ft. Sumter. It's going to be a long bloody war.
So, here we are. Now what happens?
Well, of course all the nations attacked HAVE to also respond now. They have their own domestic audiences. More tariffs, just as Reagan described.
OK, then what happens? Do you think it ends there? Do you think that powers-that-be might see that as an insult? A challenge to their self-image of dominance? What do you think the odds of further tariffs again to save face and show who's boss?
OK, then what happens? Of course other will have to respond again. Wash rinse repeat. Given the domestic consideration, neither side can easily pull back once it gets rolling and this is just the very first shot fired, not the last.
Every see the movie 13 Days? Remember when JFK was trying to get LeMay to understand more than one level of chess moves? How LeMay just ASSUMED they would bow down after we drop bombs on their personnel. Could not conceive of a series of responses and counter responses. He was a one level deep thinker. That's as far as his recursive reasoning stack could go. I'm not convinced we've even had one level of intelligent cost-benefit analysis.
Just magical thinking by people with 8th grade understandings of economics. If I sense that is going to change, I will change strategies.
I'd give my right pinky for 4 more years of Reagan right now.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 05:52:58 AM
Great post, great lesson, Americans itate listening to reason as iver-rated.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 03, 2025, 06:33:19 AM
Lol! Where to start. 3 years ago we saw the highest inflation we've seen in decades and then they raised interest rates causing people and companies to have to pay thousands of dollars more to buy and invest to the trillionaires who run the fed and print money. Keep that in mind when taking about "muh higher prices from tarrifs".
I find it freaking hilarious that all of the sudden the left hates taxes now. When did that happen. :rofl
I've been saying for years and years that higher taxes have artificially increased prices. The highest taxed places are some of the most expensive trashiest places to live. See Cali and New York. But when we you asked them, it's a good thing those taxes are so high! :rofl now all the sudden they are complaining about taxes increasing prices. This is :rofl
I don't think many are seeing the full picture here. We are moving to reduce/remove all federal income tax on Americans. This will put hundreds of dollars back into the American workers, and the businesses who pay employee taxes back in their pockets. It will incentivize hiring American workers again because there's no taxes to skirt. Then Americans will have more money in their pockets to spend.
Tariffs are a variable tax, so prices on foreign items may rise, but not that much, and will just even out with American made products to help American made products compete. This will create more jobs for Americans and impact the American economy. Americans will have more money in their pocket from not shelling out $400 of their paycheck to the fed, then will be able to choose what they want to buy. They will end up having far more money left over in their pocket paying tarrifs than directly siphoning $400 of their paycheck to some place they have no control over where that spending goes.
America has been in a trade war since the early 90s. Look what happened to all of these great Americans cities that have now turned to trash dumps thanks to the theft of high taxes with 0 return to the city along with their businesses leaving over seas and leaving their middle class high and dry and homeless. You can't tell me that's not a hidden trade war. You can't tell me Americans are better off with cheap China crap we should be making in America and creating better manufacturing jobs that pay more than Starbucks baristas.
So, I'd dvise not to listen to the fear mongers and market manipulators. This is all just trying to make a transition look as scary as possible. This is all just short term and we have 0 #s to back any of this market crash up. Further of course the world is going to be mad. I don't care. They had them on us first. America can do what it wants. Remember, it's the rest of the world who feeds off our tits and are getting billions from our tax payers to stay afloat while their economy stagnates due to over taxation and suffocation of its own people. So much so, that people don't want to have children anymore and they'll just flood your countires with cheap middle east scary folks who will work for cents on the Euro because they can't afford to hire their own people anymore. I hope yall will understand that Americans have been sold out for too long and we are standing up against this outrageous miss use of American tax dollars and theft.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: icepac on April 03, 2025, 07:06:28 AM
I don't think high taxes are the only reason many cities have become dumps.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Eagler on April 03, 2025, 07:16:58 AM
To the OP, what does NZ spend on its national defense? How about global defense?
Tariffs mean well but todays citizens don't have the thick skin to absorb the pain needed for them to take affect and work..
Americans want their cheap junk they can't live without and they want it NOW..how much room on my credit card?!?
Add those cost to inflation now rising again and sorry it might be too late..
Eagler
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 07:39:58 AM
Wall Street stocks drop like a stone... wiping trillions off the value of 401(K)s in minutes
No one is going to be tough about losing their retirement money. I pulled my 2 minths sgo and glad as hell. Saw this coming months ago.
Fear mongering? Some people refuse logic
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 03, 2025, 07:57:30 AM
Wall Street stocks drop like a stone... wiping trillions off the value of 401(K)s in minutes
And that's based on 0 #s. This is all fear manipulation by hedge funds. Inflation actually decreased per the last report. Its all short term right now. People's 401ks will be buying at lower prices lowering/countering their averages. They will end up with more when the market jumps back. Change is always tough in the beginning. The goal is to reduce the tax burden on Americans which will intern give them more money to spend and invest.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 09:40:19 AM
And that's based on 0 #s. This is all fear manipulation by hedge funds. Inflation actually decreased per the last report. Its all short term right now. People's 401ks will be buying at lower prices lowering/countering their averages. They will end up with more when the market jumps back. Change is always tough in the beginning. The goal is to reduce the tax burden on Americans which will intern give them more money to spend and invest.
Dude, sorry, but you appear to not know what you’re talking about.
I just showed you proof and you call proof fear mongering. Thats rich.
What I showed is reality, its not guessing, its not predicting,… this IS this. A lot of my friends just list 1000% by no fault if their own. You go tell them its just fear mongering.
Go look at the msrkets, we ARE going to recession
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2025, 10:08:33 AM
Dude, sorry, but you appear to not know what you’re talking about.
I just showed you proof and you call proof fear mongering. Thats rich.
What I showed is reality, its not guessing, its not predicting,… this IS this. A lot of my friends just list 1000% by no fault if their own. You go tell them its just fear mongering.
Go look at the msrkets, we ARE going to recession
Well said. But you have to remember that his hero can do not wrong in his mind.
The economic theory that taxes on foreign made products will induce investment to move that production home is doomed. Investors will never commit billions to the process of re-shifting manufacturing back into the U.S. That process would take years and said years usually implies different policy makers in the "decision jobs".
Onshoring requires immense investment and changes in land use, plant construction, power grid changes and improvements, work force education and training (in a negative birth rate country) and possibly most importantly a complete redefinition of the supply chain. And you have to accomplish this after having turned every economic ally you previously had into a sworn enemy.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: AKIron on April 03, 2025, 10:27:11 AM
Not political? I'm losing points just reading this.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2025, 11:23:59 AM
No rational person would describe WSJ or National Review as liberal rags.
Oh well. There is no avoiding it now. America has bought the ticket. Now they get to take the ride.
[Edit] Yeah. I got points to spend, beotches. ;)
Anyone notice Russia and Belarus were no where on that list, but some of our longest and most trusted and loyal allies are? Like NATO partners. Canada? Japan? Does that strike anyone as oddly inconsistent?
Quote
Also in that interview with Bret Baier, Bessent also said regarding the absence of any new tariffs on certain countries, “Russia and Belarus, we don’t trade with.”
Not true, at least as of 2024, according to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative:
U.S. goods exports to Russia in 2024 were $526.1 million, down 12.3 percent ($73.5 million) from 2023. U.S. goods imports from Russia totaled $3.0 billion in 2024, down 34.2 percent ($1.6 billion) from 2023.
That’s considerably less than it used to be, but $3 billion in imports from Russia is not nothing.
Onshoring requires immense investment and changes in land use, plant construction, power grid changes and improvements, work force education and training (in a negative birth rate country) and possibly most importantly a complete redefinition of the supply chain. And you have to accomplish this after having turned every economic ally you previously had into a sworn enemy.
Good luck.
Gotta agree..America these days doesn't have the patience..and with election cycles every 2 years, the policy will be yanked way before it has any real effect...except raising prices on already inflated prices
Eagler
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2025, 12:44:23 PM
Just FYI for those keeping score.
Roughly $2.5 trillion has been wiped away from the U.S. stock market so far today.
And I haven't even had lunch yet. :confused:
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: turt21 on April 03, 2025, 12:50:45 PM
Hello all, sitting across the world in little old NZ I wanted to point something out to some of my Americans friends that I'm sure many understand, but not all do.
Over the years my little old country of New Zealand has gradually decreased import duties/tariffs to almost nothing. All we pay on most goods nowadays is GST (Goods and Services Tax, also called VAT in some countries, sales tax in US states iirc). This is good, as when I was young in the 70s we had huge duties on stuff like electronics. The reason was protectionism for local industry. But the reality was a huge duty on TV imports because someone in our local industry thought one day they might make a TV, or made radios and radios=tv (politican minds) there we should put a duty on TV imports.
So over the years the duties/tariffs have disappeared and that made us Kiwis happy.
Why did it make us happy, well many of the goods that had tariffs applied to them just weren't available from local manufacturers - or the ones they did make were of dubious quality or lacked the same features.
The cold hard reality was the only people that benefited from the duties/tariffs were... the government. Because the people who paid for the tariffs were not the people who exported the goods to NZ, but us... the local kiwis. So if an imported TV cost $1000 NZ pesos, and the tariff was 30%, then us Kiwis paid $1300. Of that $1000 went to the people who made the TV, and $300 went to the government.
The exporters Did not pay the tarrifs but they sufferred as a result because of that added $300 from fewer sales.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Shuffler on April 03, 2025, 01:02:58 PM
Hello all, sitting across the world in little old NZ I wanted to point something out to some of my Americans friends that I'm sure many understand, but not all do.
Over the years my little old country of New Zealand has gradually decreased import duties/tariffs to almost nothing. All we pay on most goods nowadays is GST (Goods and Services Tax, also called VAT in some countries, sales tax in US states iirc). This is good, as when I was young in the 70s we had huge duties on stuff like electronics. The reason was protectionism for local industry. But the reality was a huge duty on TV imports because someone in our local industry thought one day they might make a TV, or made radios and radios=tv (politican minds) there we should put a duty on TV imports.
So over the years the duties/tariffs have disappeared and that made us Kiwis happy.
Why did it make us happy, well many of the goods that had tariffs applied to them just weren't available from local manufacturers - or the ones they did make were of dubious quality or lacked the same features.
The cold hard reality was the only people that benefited from the duties/tariffs were... the government. Because the people who paid for the tariffs were not the people who exported the goods to NZ, but us... the local kiwis. So if an imported TV cost $1000 NZ pesos, and the tariff was 30%, then us Kiwis paid $1300. Of that $1000 went to the people who made the TV, and $300 went to the government.
Now to be honest, the removal of all tariffs did end up killing some local industries. But we diversified and focused on what we do well - instead of doing a half arse job of things we are not good at. But I just wanted to point out that for me, in NZ, tariffs were always a form of tax against us kiwis ... not the foreign manufacturers. And I was glad to see them go, there were some quite horrific duties on computer gear for a while.
I can see why you might think that way in NZ. The US has the ability to manufacture most everything we need. We have in the past and can in the future. We can do so without supporting countries that do not mutually support us. This is but a small item when it comes to the money that is sent to other countries for other reasons. Those "one way" handouts are also beginning to wane.
I am glad to see you are happy. NZ is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Puma44 on April 03, 2025, 02:54:27 PM
IN
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Busher on April 03, 2025, 04:08:29 PM
The US has the ability to manufacture most everything we need.
The operative word in your statement is "most". I would encourage you to take 10 minutes to research what the USA has too little of.. or none of... and then decide if it's essential to American daily life. Maybe you like banana slices on your morning cereal when you enjoy your coffee.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2025, 05:53:59 PM
The game is of course rigged (at least in the short term).
Of course, everyone is lying to you. Like in a poker game. Watch smart money run thing up in before hours trading whipping up excitement of the dumb money so that when markets open they all dive in in fear of missing out. Then use high-speed trading to pull out first leaving mom and pop holding the bag, slack-jawed. Smart money has enough weight to temporarily manipulate the market like that. But they can't levitate the market unnaturally forever.
Sometimes they will even engineer a longer running sucker's rally to pull in the last of the skeptics. Eventually gravity can not be denied.
Of course, this time is never different. Nor will the next time be. Or the next.
That doesn't mean you can't make money. You just have to understand the game. ;)
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 06:11:15 PM
Roughly $2.5 trillion has been wiped away from the U.S. stock market so far today.
And I haven't even had lunch yet. :confused:
8 trillion in 2-3 weeks Some people aren’t going to listen, the only way they will learn is to feel the pain directly. Reality us surreal fir them.. Until then they are 8 ft tall and bullet proof.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 06:13:45 PM
Tariffs were placed on uninhabited islands, nothing but penguins. I hope they pay up. Its all made up of thin air. A lotta thought out in thus <eye roll>
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Eagler on April 03, 2025, 06:17:38 PM
There isn't any wealth until it's cashed out...just sleepless nights
Just hoping for 5% 12 month cds again...screw the rest of this manipulation
Eagler
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 06:17:56 PM
Well said. But you have to remember that his hero can do not wrong in his mind.
The economic theory that taxes on foreign made products will induce investment to move that production home is doomed. Investors will never commit billions to the process of re-shifting manufacturing back into the U.S. That process would take years and said years usually implies different policy makers in the "decision jobs".
Onshoring requires immense investment and changes in land use, plant construction, power grid changes and improvements, work force education and training (in a negative birth rate country) and possibly most importantly a complete redefinition of the supply chain. And you have to accomplish this after having turned every economic ally you previously had into a sworn enemy.
Good luck.
What was done to some of these countries is war worthy. Why would anyone invest in a country who coukd wipe your earning on a flake whim. Its nit going to happen, the markets may not recover where they WERE
This is reality, it can’t be talked away
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: RUSH1 on April 03, 2025, 06:29:00 PM
What was done to some of these countries is war worthy. Why would anyone invest in a country who coukd wipe your earning on a flake whim. Its nit going to happen, the markets may not recover where they WERE
This is reality, it can’t be talked away
Johnson & Johnson: On Friday, Johnson & Johnson announced manufacturing, research and development, and technology investments of more than $55 billion in the U.S. over the next four years. They say it represents a 25 percent increase in investment compared to the previous four years under President Joe Biden, crediting an increase in investment levels to the 2017 Tax Cuts & Jobs Act. Also on Friday, the company broke ground on a 500,000-square-foot biologics manufacturing facility in Wilson, North Carolina. SoftBank: On Monday, SoftBank CEO Masayoshi Son visited Trump at Mar-a-Lago and announced a $100 billion investment over the next four years with a promise to create 100,000 jobs focused on artificial intelligence and related infrastructure, according to CNBC. United Arab Emirates: After a meeting with Trump, the United Arab Emirates committed to a 10-year, $1.4 trillion agreement with the U.S. that will sustain existing investments in AI infrastructure, semiconductors, energy, and American manufacturing, according to Reuters. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company: Semiconductor giant TSMC announced earlier this month in response to Trump's tariffs threat on foreign chips that it would invest another $100 billion into its U.S. operations. The anticipated new chip fabrication plants, two advanced packaging facilities, and a new research and design center will increase the company's total investment in Phoenix to $165 billion—the largest foreign direct investment in U.S. history. In January, Trump announced a $500 billion private investment in AI infrastructure led by OpenAI, Oracle and SoftBank. Apple: Tech giant Apple announced a $500 billion investment. Nvidia: On Thursday, the White House announced that chipmaker Nvidia would invest hundreds of billions of dollars over the next four years in U.S.-based manufacturing operations.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 07:37:22 PM
None of these have been confirmed.... at least I find no evidence of this, I have yet to see one make a statement. Have you ever seen a factory moved? It takes 1-3 yrs. It's not happening next month. Between then and now these factories are already laying workers off starting today.
Here's food for thought,... >IF< our FORMER allies want to get nasty, which they are starting to do,... they can charge us for bases on their land, or worse kick us out, they can and probably will avoid helping us in any war. We no longer have allies that trust us. They also probably already stopped sharing intel because of the other issue and this.
If our products are not being sold there, our jobs start dumping, not vice versa. consumer confidence is in the pits, what makes you think they are going to buy anything? This can only go bad, unless he lifts them. China, Russia and N Korea love the crap out of watching us implode from within.
That said, In my world, when someone strong arms ya,.. you may go along with it and put a face on it, but first chance to screw you really hard they will. False positives.
Someone made mention we can make almost everything we use.....could be some truth to that, but many products you eat and use are not grown here. We get a lot more import products than many are aware of. Ya like Olive oil,.. pay double. Ya like bananas, pay double. You like your VKB joy stick, pay double. these guys are trying their best to smooth over a catastrophe, saving face. The only time they have to face reality is when it finally burns them. So ya,.. burn it down, make them finally feel it. I was proactive and yanked my money... I can watch this lesson learned.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 03, 2025, 07:53:03 PM
I'd rather pay slightly higher prices that compare to American products prices than get 1,000 a paycheck instantly deducted out of my paycheck without having any say in how that money is actually spent. Then to have it sent over seas not even benefiting my own community. What a scam.
And yet, you'd rather pay that 1,000 a pay check to save $50 on slightly higher prices... seems irrational. You support taxes on yourself but when it comes to taxing imports on businesses all of the sudden it's going to create high prices and ruin everything for us? That's irrational. Not to mention it was never a problem for them to tariffs us. What about their higher prices? Can you explain to us why it's okay for them to tarifs and increase prices on their population? It always seems like when America wants to compete in trade with the world, yall can't stand it. Further, America is providing billions of dollars of assistance to Europe and Ukraine and every where else, they should be thankful. And infact if they can sustain themselves with military and everything else, than so be it. We'll save the money for Americans...
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: guncrasher on April 03, 2025, 08:13:13 PM
I'd rather pay slightly higher prices that compare to American products prices than get 1,000 a paycheck instantly deducted out of my paycheck without having any say in how that money is actually spent. Then to have it sent over seas not even benefiting my own community. What a scam.
And yet, you'd rather pay that 1,000 a pay check to save $50 on slightly higher prices... seems irrational. You support taxes on yourself but when it comes to taxing imports on businesses all of the sudden it's going to create high prices and ruin everything for us? That's irrational. Not to mention it was never a problem for them to tariffs us. What about their higher prices? Can you explain to us why it's okay for them to tarifs and increase prices on their population? It always seems like when America wants to compete in trade with the world, yall can't stand it. Further, America is providing billions of dollars of assistance to Europe and Ukraine and every where else, they should be thankful. And infact if they can sustain themselves with military and everything else, than so be it. We'll save the money for Americans...
there's some penguins on an island that disagree with you, they would rather not pay anything and i get the feeling they wont.
semp
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Busher on April 03, 2025, 08:21:15 PM
You support taxes on yourself but when it comes to taxing imports on businesses all of the sudden it's going to create high prices and ruin everything for us? .
What makes you think the price hikes will be "slight"? $10,000 on a car = slight?
"Taxing imports on businesses".. very confusing statement... who do you think pays the tariffs?
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: RUSH1 on April 03, 2025, 09:28:12 PM
None of these have been confirmed.... at least I find no evidence of this, I have yet to see one make a statement. Have you ever seen a factory moved? It takes 1-3 yrs. It's not happening next month. Between then and now these factories are already laying workers off starting today.
Here's food for thought,... >IF< our FORMER allies want to get nasty, which they are starting to do,... they can charge us for bases on their land, or worse kick us out, they can and probably will avoid helping us in any war. We no longer have allies that trust us. They also probably already stopped sharing intel because of the other issue and this.
If our products are not being sold there, our jobs start dumping, not vice versa. consumer confidence is in the pits, what makes you think they are going to buy anything? This can only go bad, unless he lifts them. China, Russia and N Korea love the crap out of watching us implode from within.
That said, In my world, when someone strong arms ya,.. you may go along with it and put a face on it, but first chance to screw you really hard they will. False positives.
Someone made mention we can make almost everything we use.....could be some truth to that, but many products you eat and use are not grown here. We get a lot more import products than many are aware of. Ya like Olive oil,.. pay double. Ya like bananas, pay double. You like your VKB joy stick, pay double. these guys are trying their best to smooth over a catastrophe, saving face. The only time they have to face reality is when it finally burns them. So ya,.. burn it down, make them finally feel it. I was proactive and yanked my money... I can watch this lesson learned.
And when they are confirmed?
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: RUSH1 on April 03, 2025, 09:30:27 PM
Why not ask the countries tariffing the watermelon out of us? Have you questioned their motives?
why not ask why we are putting tariffs on islands that have no people. that's the insanity of who is in charge. tariff the heck out of penguins. that's insanity.
semp
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: RUSH1 on April 03, 2025, 10:02:36 PM
why not ask why we are putting tariffs on islands that have no people. that's the insanity of who is in charge. tariff the heck out of penguins. that's insanity.
semp
I'm not really in the mood to get MSNBC with you, so how bout just addressing/justifying the non reciprocal tariffs that have been placed on the US over the decades.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Busher on April 03, 2025, 10:06:28 PM
Why not ask the countries tariffing the watermelon out of us? Have you questioned their motives?
Many countries had free trade agreements with the U.S. but they are targeted too. Tariffs will no doubt raise huge sums of money for the U.S. Government... all on the backs of the American consumer.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: guncrasher on April 03, 2025, 10:17:16 PM
I'm not really in the mood to get MSNBC with you, so how bout just addressing/justifying the non reciprocal tariffs that have been placed on the US over the decades.
just putting the insanity and lack of research out there. why include the penguins. do they even care?
semp
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 03, 2025, 10:25:03 PM
Well, they are not, and most haven't, and that is the true point. Ya can't just say they are when they're not. <shrug> False Positive.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 03, 2025, 10:53:50 PM
Get a good night sleep ladies.
The fun starts again in the morning. ;)
(Though historically, you might expect a temporary 1/3 retracement before another leg down. But not always. Sometimes it's gotta fall a lot lower first.)
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 04, 2025, 06:22:19 AM
I'm not really in the mood to get MSNBC with you, so how bout just addressing/justifying the non reciprocal tariffs that have been placed on the US over the decades.
See, they can't answer that question. Funny how they enjoy paying all these high tariff prices in their country though. :rolleyes:
BTW, if their arguement is that taxes and tariffs increase prices artificially. Than they have proved my point I've been making for years about taxation. And for years they've made excuses about why taxation is so great. Now all the sudden prices going up because of tariffs is the worst thing ever :rofl Its called false outrage.
Look how happy they are about China and their cheap garbage made by slave labor trying to bully America with more tarrifs when they already had some of the highest. I guess they arent concerned about their people paying higher prices :rofl. All they can do is manipulate our markets but they won't be able to do that for long when the real economic #s come out. Infact, market cuts like this will probably lower prices and inflation.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Eagler on April 04, 2025, 07:07:22 AM
Cheap China garbage is all most need or want..not many are willing to pay more for slightly better quality..if they can locate the same item made here at all..
If prices continue to climb, in 2 years we will see what happens..my guess it would not be good for any real change the next 2 years..
Very glad my retirement $$$ are not in this manipulated market
Gets bad enough and they'll lower rates again to zero to spur on new "growth"...to be followed by higher inflation
Eagler
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 04, 2025, 07:08:47 AM
Cheap China garbage is all most need or want..not many are willing to pay more for slightly better quality..if they can locate the same item made here at all..
If prices continue to climb, in 2 years we will see what happens..my guess it would not be good for any real change the next 2 years..
Very glad my retirement $$$ are not in this manipulated market
Gets bad enough and they'll lower rates again to zero to spur on new "growth"...to be followed by higher inflation
Eagler
Here's one guys theory about what's going to happen that may seem reasonable.
Not an X subscriber..what does he think will happen?
And does he think it will all be done in 2 years?
That is all the time there is imo...to say more becomes political
Eagler
I don't have an account either. You can still click and watch. Bascially they are forcing the market sell off so people will buy bonds which will force the fed to cut interest rates in order to refinance 9 trillion in debt at a lower rate and then create a huge market boom.
It's funny with these guys though.. market crashing = muh poor 401k and everyone's retirement. Market increasing "muh rich are getting richer". I guess it's just never goes the right way...
That being said, the timing won't take long. They are keeping the blanket tax cuts for everyone and should pass soon. I'm hoping eventually those get cut even more, as they should, but can't do it all at once.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2025, 10:32:27 AM
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 04, 2025, 10:40:01 AM
I don't have an account either. You can still click and watch. Bascially they are forcing the market sell off so people will buy bonds which will force the fed to cut interest rates in order to refinance 9 trillion in debt at a lower rate and then create a huge market boom.
It's funny with these guys though.. market crashing = muh poor 401k and everyone's retirement. Market increasing "muh rich are getting richer". I guess it's just never goes the right way...
That being said, the timing won't take long. They are keeping the blanket tax cuts for everyone and should pass soon. I'm hoping eventually those get cut even more, as they should, but can't do it all at once.
This is one mans myth faltering massively. Fed just made a speech they will not lower anything. I suggest you watch it.
We are on our way to repeating yesterday losing 3 trillion
That would make 14 trillion in 3 weeks. All these people must lose their retirements savings to please the uninformed to learn a lesson? Absurd.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Busher on April 04, 2025, 10:41:48 AM
Even worse, some also have mental conditions (TDS).
We all know you are dedicated and I doubt you will care about this, but now that the USA has made economic enemies of virtually every ally you ever had, it is odd that not one dollar of tariff has been applied to Russia. And while I appreciate that market is small, the US still imported 3 billion dollars worth of Russian good in 2024.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2025, 10:51:42 AM
A little less than half of America bought this ticket. Now we all get to take the ride. I just made sure I was sitting near the escape hatch. ;)
There eventually will be a bottom. Given how distorted the state was before this started, when it's over, I would not have been surprised at all to have seen a 60% drop in the market from the peak.
That may not happen all at once. Typically there are one or more Sucker's Rallies that may even last for a couple of months. Only to go back into free-fall once more suckers have been drawn into the kill-zone.
If Trump were to capitulate and materially back down, this might stop the bleeding for a while. I will have to reallocate quickly. I don't see that happening. I see doubling down over and over.
On the bright side, you're watching history unfold. ;)
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 04, 2025, 10:58:58 AM
Well, just a thought to ponder;
When Ctp.Trips and I agree on ANYTHING, you might be wise to check your chosen path.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: DmonSlyr on April 04, 2025, 11:02:41 AM
Let's continue to make trillionaires who own the Fed richer and continue to hurt the housing, car and property market yall created with rampant inflation in 2021 forcing high interest rates. Aright!!! :rolleyes:
You all realize that the price of cars actually went up 10k when the fed forced interest rates due to the 2022 fraudulent market boom that caused rampant inflation right?
Let's not act like yalls side knows anything about putting money back into the pockets of Americans citizens.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 04, 2025, 11:03:25 AM
Stepping over $100 bill to pick up a $1 bill.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Busher on April 04, 2025, 11:08:54 AM
Let's continue to make trillionaires who own the Fed richer and continue to hurt the housing, car and property market yall created with rampant inflation in 2021 forcing high interest rates. Aright!!! :rolleyes:
You all realize that the price of cars actually went up 10k when the fed forced interest rates due to the 2022 fraudulent market boom that caused rampant inflation right?
Let's not act like yalls side knows anything about putting money back into the pockets of Americans citizens.
While your argument points are usually odd and confusing, this one really takes the cake... I guess some trillionaires like Vice President Musk really have the travails of the little guy deep in their hearts.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 04, 2025, 11:09:53 AM
I’m not taking the child path of trying to embarrass anyone. I’m not going to dig the post up. But about 6-8 mos ago you replied that all these nutjob things he said he was going to do was just him “joking” “he’s just a funny guy”.
Now your tribe is defending him actually doing it, when ya said he wouldn’t. What happened to the just joking part? Were we wrong then too?
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: CptTrips on April 04, 2025, 11:30:07 AM
If China were ever going to invade Taiwan, there will be no better time than now.
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Animl-AW on April 04, 2025, 11:41:22 AM
While your argument points are usually odd and confusing, this one really takes the cake... I guess some trillionaires like Vice President Musk really have the travails of the little guy deep in their hearts.
Some have been intensionally kept confused and off balance with misinformation for a reason, history repeating itself.
I’m not sure how 14 trillton+ loss in markets can do to a 28 trillion GDP is missed in confusion. Trust is the hardest thing to fix, trust is trade.
Its sad to watch some so blown off reality in propaganda they suffer the most from the inevitable reality catching up. Brutal.
I’m glad there are ppl from other countries in this thread who see most Americans do not support this. They are finding these tariffs may be illegal and congress is going to try to take control of tariffs back. However, even if tomorrow, the severe financial and trust damage is done
<shrug>
Title: Re: Economics discussion (not political!)
Post by: Meatwad on April 04, 2025, 11:43:29 AM