General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 1Cane on August 10, 2025, 02:13:43 PM
Title: Sig 365
Post by: 1Cane on August 10, 2025, 02:13:43 PM
There is a video of a guy who jiggles slide and weapon discharges. I believe a military unit took them out of service. I Believe Glock had a reputation for being dropped and shooting LEO's both are striker fired. Once out of Army I bought a Colt 1911 is was an accurate Pistol. and if you ran out of ammo a great club. Next after seeing movie Serpico got a Smith & Wesson 9mm with high capacity mag at a hardware store In Kalifornia in the good old days Finally with delays with DOJ over purchase of Smith & Wesson" was bought with 10 day waiting period and they couldn't find record of 1978 purchase" I bought an HK 9mm only complaint magazine release is small an on rear of trigger guard All three guns have old fashion hammer. All have worked great Finally I have a taking care of business feeling with the hammer back. What say you striker fire Glock or Sig owners
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: uptown on August 10, 2025, 02:50:07 PM
You ever tried a 1858 Remington .44 cal black powder revolver with a .45LR conversion cylinder? I have a GI issue 1911 and I don't know which one I like best between the two.
I've always stayed away from Sig and Glock for all the problems I hear about. I have been wanting to try out the High Point 10mm but I hear they're problematic as well.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 10, 2025, 03:34:26 PM
I Believe Glock had a reputation for being dropped and shooting LEO's both are striker fired. What say you striker fire Glock or Sig owners
I don't own any Sigs and I've heard the top of the line ones are good but the budget ones seem to be not so good. Although Sig denies it P320 appears to have some issues. ICE and some police departments (e.g., Dallas, Milwaukee) have stopped issuing the P320 due to safety concerns.
I'm no Glock fanboy but I do think that at that price point it is one of the better DAO firearms for new shooter. It' a gun you toss to somebody who's not very proficient and they can make it go bang. My wife is very good with her G19 and she's had a few firearms. I have never heard about drop issues with Glocks and I've dropped one at least once. Glocks have a three-part safety system, including a firing pin safety and drop safety. These prevent the firing pin from moving forward unless the trigger is deliberately pulled. So even if dropped, the internal safeties block accidental discharge. In short: No trigger pull = no bang, even if it hits the ground hard.
I have a Hi-Point 9mm that's a tackle box gun and for that it's great. It's reliable as long as you maintain it and don't use garbage ammo that the Glocks would shoot with ease. I'd consider a Hi-Point 10 mm based on my experience with them and the fact that you can get it for under $200.
I found this comparison between the two: Feature | Glock "Safe Action" System | Sig P320 (Pre-Upgrade) ------------------------|------------------------------------|------------------------------- Trigger Safety | Yes – integrated safety tab | Yes – but lacked external safeties Drop Safety | Proven drop-safe design | Some models had drop-fire issues Manual Safety | Rare (mostly LE/military variants) | Available on some models Internal Safeties | 3 automatic safeties | Varies by model and generation History of Discharges | Very rare accidental discharges | Multiple lawsuits and reports
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 10, 2025, 06:05:41 PM
Here's an interesting video about it. Surprised Sig Sauer is trying to act like nothing wrong...
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 10, 2025, 06:46:17 PM
That's interesting. Sticking a screw in the trigger kinda looks like a setup and the fact that the same thing causes other firearms to discharge makes me wonder how credible that one is.For sure if I had one of those I wouldn't carry one in the chamber.
I usually don't have one in the chamber anyways 'cause I have kids around I I figure it's an added safety step I can take and I can rack a slide pretty quick.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Animl-AW on August 10, 2025, 10:25:35 PM
You ever tried a 1858 Remington .44 cal black powder revolver with a .45LR conversion cylinder? I have a GI issue 1911 and I don't know which one I like best between the two.
I've always stayed away from Sig and Glock for all the problems I hear about. I have been wanting to try out the High Point 10mm but I hear they're problematic as well.
I had a 1873 ( I think, may have year wrong) copy of a .44 8" black power revolver, what a beast. Problem with BP on revolvers is the residue builds up quick and it takes full strength to pull the trigger after about 5-7 shots. So if you don't nail it with in the first 3-4 shots, good luck
Still in love with my original 1985 .357 mag 6" Colt Python. Was offered $4k for it,.... NOPE
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: 1Cane on August 10, 2025, 11:09:29 PM
Have always carried round in chamber.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: uptown on August 11, 2025, 05:19:14 PM
I had a 1873 ( I think, may have year wrong) copy of a .44 8" black power revolver, what a beast. Problem with BP on revolvers is the residue builds up quick and it takes full strength to pull the trigger after about 5-7 shots. So if you don't nail it with in the first 3-4 shots, good luck
Still in love with my original 1985 .357 mag 6" Colt Python. Was offered $4k for it,.... NOPE
That's why I bought the .45LR conversion cylinder. No gumming and no misfires...no black powder needed. The only downside to it is, you won't pack it around without being noticed because it's a hog leg for sure. It is heavy but not much more so than my 1911. It has the 8" barrel. Ever in a shoulder holster it's pretty noticeable. I load 5 rounds and keep the 6 chamber empty to prevent it going off when dropped or something. Kinda a safety if you will. Pull the hammer back and she's ready to go. :rock
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Tumor on August 11, 2025, 10:07:25 PM
Me too. All makes/models & calibers. I've moved to carrying revolvers almost exclusively. I don't know why really... but the warm fuzzy factor is higher. Maybe because not once ever have I had a malfunction or failure to fire beyond bad ammo. Or maybe I'm just old fashioned.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Animl-AW on August 12, 2025, 02:35:12 PM
Me too. All makes/models & calibers. I've moved to carrying revolvers almost exclusively. I don't know why really... but the warm fuzzy factor is higher. Maybe because not once ever have I had a malfunction or failure to fire beyond bad ammo. Or maybe I'm just old fashioned.
Both I'm exactly the same. It's not going to jam.
And if ya need more that 3 shots you allowed yourself in the wrong situation.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Animl-AW on August 12, 2025, 02:43:42 PM
That's why I bought the .45LR conversion cylinder. No gumming and no misfires...no black powder needed. The only downside to it is, you won't pack it around without being noticed because it's a hog leg for sure. It is heavy but not much more so than my 1911. It has the 8" barrel. Ever in a shoulder holster it's pretty noticeable. I load 5 rounds and keep the 6 chamber empty to prevent it going off when dropped or something. Kinda a safety if you will. Pull the hammer back and she's ready to go. :rock
Not sure they were available in the 80s-90s. If so I was clueless. They are hard to conceal.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: icepac on August 12, 2025, 03:54:17 PM
That's interesting. Sticking a screw in the trigger kinda looks like a setup and the fact that the same thing causes other firearms to discharge makes me wonder how credible that one is.For sure if I had one of those I wouldn't carry one in the chamber.
I usually don't have one in the chamber anyways 'cause I have kids around I I figure it's an added safety step I can take and I can rack a slide pretty quick.
Reminds me of how Audi got set up by journalists.
Even on the models where it has become obvious, It only happens when the slide to frame connection wears and gets sloppy.
Other sigs similarily designed have the same issue for the same reason but they are in unpopular calilbers mostly or you would hear more of them. P232 looks suspect but only in cases of extreme wear.........meaning almost enough wear for it to bind or come off.
Proper gun care isn't observed by everybody so expect the non-maintainer's guns to wear a lot faster than yours.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 12, 2025, 04:54:05 PM
Me too. All makes/models & calibers. I've moved to carrying revolvers almost exclusively. I don't know why really... but the warm fuzzy factor is higher. Maybe because not once ever have I had a malfunction or failure to fire beyond bad ammo. Or maybe I'm just old fashioned.
I am alive because first 2 rounds misfired on a revolver third missed me and as I was taught in the Army take immediate action.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Widewing on August 13, 2025, 10:05:44 AM
I own nearly 40 handguns. I first learned to shoot a revolver at 11 years old (1964). That was a police issue Smith & Wesson Model 10, chambered in .38 Special. I own a 1974 Smith & Wesson Model 15-3, which is improved on the old Model 10. Mine is in nearly new, perfect condition. These were made when craftsmanship was a thing.
Among the many semi-autos I own, there's not a SIG among them.
Why? I had some experience with the P226 and P229. These date to the era of all metal "wonder nines". They are large, heavy and hammer fired double action/single action types. Reliable, accurate and heavy. Duty guns. SIG's polymer frame pistols never appealed to me. Even the micro-compact P365 was not something I wanted. Instead, I bought a Glock G43 and a G42 (.380 ACP, aka Browning 9mm Kurtz). Later, I added a Springfield Hellcat and Taurus GX4. All are micro 9s, and all have been trouble free.
As to the issue with the SIG P320/M17/M18... I have shot factory stock and highly customized P320s. I have never enjoyed shooting them. Why? The high bore axis (distance between the bore centerline and frame beaver tail) induces greater muzzle flip. The fit of the slide to the frame rails is sloppy at best. That sloppy fit indicates not only a design issue, but exacerbates the risk of the striker being released under certain conditions. It is probable that unique tolerance stackup combined with excessive vertical slide motion can, when jostled, release the striker. Sticking striker safeties are not uncommon.
Understanding how the P320 came to be is worthwhile knowing. SIG had fallen behind in the polymer frame striker fired tech race. To regain some market share, the hammer fired P250 was quickly reengineered as a striker fire pistol. SIG did not use the industry standard modified Browning action, used by Glock, S&W, Springfield and the like. As an engineer, I did not like their action. Too many potential failure points. Safety is dependent upon torsion springs that can be knocked askew or simply slip out of retention. The Army performed a MTBF analysis and concluded that between .008 and .012 percent of M17/M18 pistols will be or become safety defective. That seems statistically insignificant, but having 34 to 50 pistols that can fire uncommanded is not insignificant. Especially when stacked on top of the usual negligent discharges. Especially when compared to the Glock G19 and G19X, which are several orders of magnitude less likely to experience similar failures. Glocks do not have fully cocked strikers. That means even if the striker safety fails, there's not sufficient spring force to detonate a cartridge primer. Glocks use trigger pull to fully cock the striker.
The other pistol passed over is the Beretta M9A3, which is hammer fired with a de-cocker. They physically cannot fire uncommanded. The DOD was not enamored with the much improved Beretta. It was not modular and was an all metal pistol. Most issues with the older M9 were the result of the DOD cheaping out on magazines. They could have purchased factory magazines or commercial MetGar mags, but went with the lowest bidder. Those magazines were cheaply made and the finish tended to collect dust and debris internally, resulting in jams and failures to feed. When the M9 entered service, several suffered cracked slides. Beretta acknowledged the issue and redesigned the slide to eliminate the high stress point. They then provided replacement slides for all pistols in service. They ate the cost. SIG is still denying that there's potential issues with the P320 types.
So, what should SIG do? At the least, they should hire an independent engineering firm. They should provide this firm with a full drawing package. Then, this firm can model the design in SoildWorks or Catia and apply full tolerance stackups. If there is a possibility that a specific stackup can result in an unsafe condition, SIG can then adjust tolerances to eliminate that problem. Then, develop an inspection procedure to identify those pistols at risk.
Pistol recalls are not uncommon. The difference here is that SIG has nearly a billion dollars at stake.
With all of this said, keep in mind that this issue is unique to the P320 type. All other SIG pistols are safe, including the P365 which does use a version of the ubiquitous Browning action.
Here's a few of my pistols. All of these have red dot optics installed. Zig-zagging from top left: Springfield XDM OSP Compact Elite 45 (10+1 in .45 ACP) Arex Delta Gen 2 Model L (19+1 in 9mm) Canik TP9SC Elite subcompact (15+1 in 9mm) Ruger RXM (based upon the Glock Gen 3 G19, with everything the Gen 5 G19 should have, but doesn't (15+1 in 9mm) (https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/530383420_10239388693080912_3337194627644171894_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=bd9a62&_nc_ohc=ZJrBTeuOufQQ7kNvwE9CiAH&_nc_oc=AdnyNqbTBAEYGsuIUEHUR8nBaxGU8Yqb6BHjb0n8M_ey7vKsDT0O9kcX13Eo1vHG7mt4TNv3YA-abYhbaMChwlxf&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-2.fna&_nc_gid=NfbKV0QTxw6xWLhTc3Ceyw&oh=00_AfXMIA3FKhVxBux6bUL-h5evQ2joPju6RkAb1P_oYd-0Kw&oe=68A27BB0)
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Eagler on August 14, 2025, 07:40:57 AM
I have a P226 for home defense..
Added a 12 gauge assault pump with some nice clips this year..
Pray daily that they will never be used for the reason they were purchased..
Eagler
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 14, 2025, 12:46:21 PM
Added a 12 gauge assault pump with some nice clips this year..
Pray daily that they will never be used for the reason they were purchased..
Eagler
What kind of shotgun uses clips? I've never heard of one. I have stripper clips for my Mosin Nagant and my AR but I've never heard of a shotgun that uses them.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: eddiek on August 14, 2025, 12:51:46 PM
Good to see a reply from Widewing. Was wondering what had become of you, sir.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 14, 2025, 10:04:26 PM
There is a video of a guy who jiggles slide and weapon discharges. I believe a military unit took them out of service. I Believe Glock had a reputation for being dropped and shooting LEO's both are striker fired. Once out of Army I bought a Colt 1911 is was an accurate Pistol. and if you ran out of ammo a great club. Next after seeing movie Serpico got a Smith & Wesson 9mm with high capacity mag at a hardware store In Kalifornia in the good old days Finally with delays with DOJ over purchase of Smith & Wesson" was bought with 10 day waiting period and they couldn't find record of 1978 purchase" I bought an HK 9mm only complaint magazine release is small an on rear of trigger guard All three guns have old fashion hammer. All have worked great Finally I have a taking care of business feeling with the hammer back. What say you striker fire Glock or Sig owners
The issue you describe, as my friend explained, affects the P320 series, not the P365 Series. I have a P320, had it for several years, with no issue. Have a friend that has at least 3-5 P365 pistols, no issues.
I carry either a 1911, or a P220, every, single, day. I bought the P320 to have a 9MM, other than the 226 I bought my wife. Honestly, I bought it as much because a couple of my military friends said "you should always own a mil spec short gun, and a mil spec long gun." So I have the P320, and a mid grade AR15.
Unlike my friend, I actually kinda like my P320, and I was sort of surprised. It shoots really well for me, and I don't really like striker fired pistols, I especially do not like Glocks. I don't really like 9MM, either. The P320 shouldn't really be a pistol I shoot well, but it is. But it won't be replacing my crew of 1911 and P220 pistols as my carry piece. I do also own several revolvers, but the only one small enough for regular carry is an heirloom issued my father, when he was the governor's bodyguard, and the FBI was training said body guards, and issuing them weapons, after some high profile assassinations. Needless to say, that's tucked away safely.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 14, 2025, 10:06:48 PM
Added a 12 gauge assault pump with some nice clips this year..
Pray daily that they will never be used for the reason they were purchased..
Eagler
"Clip" or magazine?
I have actually considered an AR style shotgun, but the quality on those seems to be very hit or miss, and I don't want to spend money on something that I'm not sure will be a good piece. I'm fine without one. More likely to purchase a coach gun anyway.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Animl-AW on August 14, 2025, 10:12:43 PM
Proper gun care isn't observed by everybody so expect the non-maintainer's guns to wear a lot faster than yours.
When I did own a lot of guns I knew every single part, all moving parts were buffed smooth and well lubed. They worked much better when I put them back together. They all came apart often. Usually when I'm into something I live and breath it. To me cleaning/tweaking was part of the hobby.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Widewing on August 15, 2025, 12:30:43 AM
Good to see a reply from Widewing. Was wondering what had become of you, sir.
Yes sir, I am still around. I'm retired from Engineering since early 2020. I consult for my former employer. Not crazy busy, just a few hours a week. Currently, I am advising on a hypersonic missile program that I was lead engineer on when I retired.
I retired to the Florida Space Coast, just south of Patrick SFB. Close enough to the Cape to watch rocket launches. Close enough to rattle things in our house. Staying very busy...
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Eagler on August 15, 2025, 07:31:19 AM
What kind of shotgun uses clips? I've never heard of one. I have stripper clips for my Mosin Nagant and my AR but I've never heard of a shotgun that uses them.
Remington 870..even came with an ammo belt...trying to post a picture..
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 15, 2025, 07:59:41 AM
That's very cool!
Can you use the tube mag and the detachable mag at the same time?
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 15, 2025, 08:29:47 AM
Hadn't seen the magazine conversion for the 870, but then, I haven't been looking. I have a Winchester pump. It's a hunting shotgun, but it stays loaded with 00 Buck, and slugs, in a close closet, for home defense.
Had several combat style shotguns, years ago, sold them when I changed my career. That was a drawback for the 18" combat shotgun at the time, capacity. A magazine conversion would help, a few were tried, with mixed results. When they had feed issues, they tied up the action, that's big problem. You could always single feed in an emergency if the tube ran dry. But if the action ties up...... That's why a lot of agencies not only didn't use semi auto shot guns, but also issued 2-1/2" ammunition for 3" rated guns. You can slam a 2-1/2" shell home even in a dirty or fouled 3" chamber. A combat firearm that doesn't go "BANG!" every time you need it to can often get the wrong person killed. Hence why I haven't bought an AR style shotgun. I haven't seen a known make/model that hasn't exhibited problems. It's the only purpose for an AR platform shotgun. If I cannot count on it to go "BANG!" every time, then it isn't going into my cabinet or safe.
For the same reason, I will hone/tune the action, but I rarely use reduced rate trigger return or hammer springs in a combat firearm. Only when I know the originals are extremely over rate. Again, if it doesn't go "BANG!", or the trigger won't reset.....
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 15, 2025, 08:31:05 AM
Yes sir, I am still around. I'm retired from Engineering since early 2020. I consult for my former employer. Not crazy busy, just a few hours a week. Currently, I am advising on a hypersonic missile program that I was lead engineer on when I retired.
I retired to the Florida Space Coast, just south of Patrick SFB. Close enough to the Cape to watch rocket launches. Close enough to rattle things in our house. Staying very busy...
Great to hear you're still around, and still doing things, my friend. May God bless you with many more enjoyable years.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 15, 2025, 10:02:47 AM
Hadn't seen the magazine conversion for the 870, but then, I haven't been looking. I have a Winchester pump. It's a hunting shotgun, but it stays loaded with 00 Buck, and slugs, in a close closet, for home defense.
Had several combat style shotguns, years ago, sold them when I changed my career. That was a drawback for the 18" combat shotgun at the time, capacity. A magazine conversion would help, a few were tried, with mixed results. When they had feed issues, they tied up the action, that's big problem. You could always single feed in an emergency if the tube ran dry. But if the action ties up...... That's why a lot of agencies not only didn't use semi auto shot guns, but also issued 2-1/2" ammunition for 3" rated guns. You can slam a 2-1/2" shell home even in a dirty or fouled 3" chamber. A combat firearm that doesn't go "BANG!" every time you need it to can often get the wrong person killed. Hence why I haven't bought an AR style shotgun. I haven't seen a known make/model that hasn't exhibited problems. It's the only purpose for an AR platform shotgun. If I cannot count on it to go "BANG!" every time, then it isn't going into my cabinet or safe.
For the same reason, I will hone/tune the action, but I rarely use reduced rate trigger return or hammer springs in a combat firearm. Only when I know the originals are extremely over rate. Again, if it doesn't go "BANG!", or the trigger won't reset.....
True. I was looking into the Saiga autos a while back because I figured that the AK went bag fairly often so that if it was based on that maybe it would work and then I got to reading about how you had to adjust it for different loads or some shid and figured I'd stick with a 590. I have one between my bed and my nightstand and a 500 for shooting birds or drones or whatever.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Eagler on August 15, 2025, 10:26:46 AM
Hadn't seen the magazine conversion for the 870, but then, I haven't been looking. I have a Winchester pump. It's a hunting shotgun, but it stays loaded with 00 Buck, and slugs, in a close closet, for home defense.
Had several combat style shotguns, years ago, sold them when I changed my career. That was a drawback for the 18" combat shotgun at the time, capacity. A magazine conversion would help, a few were tried, with mixed results. When they had feed issues, they tied up the action, that's big problem. You could always single feed in an emergency if the tube ran dry. But if the action ties up...... That's why a lot of agencies not only didn't use semi auto shot guns, but also issued 2-1/2" ammunition for 3" rated guns. You can slam a 2-1/2" shell home even in a dirty or fouled 3" chamber. A combat firearm that doesn't go "BANG!" every time you need it to can often get the wrong person killed. Hence why I haven't bought an AR style shotgun. I haven't seen a known make/model that hasn't exhibited problems. It's the only purpose for an AR platform shotgun. If I cannot count on it to go "BANG!" every time, then it isn't going into my cabinet or safe.
For the same reason, I will hone/tune the action, but I rarely use reduced rate trigger return or hammer springs in a combat firearm. Only when I know the originals are extremely over rate. Again, if it doesn't go "BANG!", or the trigger won't reset.....
I have pump, semi-auto and side by side shotguns. I accessorized my rugged, reliable H&R 870 clone for home security. Hogue furniture, see under rail with Fastfire 3 red dot. Fiber optic front sight. LED light. Velcro shot cards. Fore stock strap and quick adjust sling. I have a Mossberg 590A1, 940 Pro, 500 Tactical 20", and a cheap but reliable Maverick 88 (upgraded). I sold my Franchi LAW-12 years ago. It was too finicky. Hard to beat a pump shotgun for reliability and simplicity. Of course, a 12 ga Coach Gun will certainly get the job done.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 16, 2025, 11:19:26 PM
Got an email today, the Panzer Arms Ar-12 is on sale cheap enough to consider trying it. If I can make it reliable, cool, if not, it's not a huge loss.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: hazmatt on August 17, 2025, 12:19:36 AM
I was curious what it went for and I found one listed for $199. I figured they cost a bunch more then that.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 17, 2025, 09:03:33 AM
I was curious what it went for and I found one listed for $199. I figured they cost a bunch more then that.
They're imports, a lot are made in Turkey. Another reason I'm not huge on spending the money, I like to support U.S. made products and manufacturers. Still, I'm considering one, and a couple of higher capacity magazines. If I can make it reliable....
However, I just bought a DSA Gray Wolf FAL clone, DM rifle. It needs a scope, rings, a rear sight, a fire control upgrade, and a couple of spare magazines. I'm working on a battle rifle collection. I need another Garand, an M-14 and a BM-59 (James River makes nice examples of both), and a G3. CMP is apparently going to have new Garands, forged receiver and match grade barrels, they're setting up to manufacture. I'd like to have an original again, too.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Widewing on August 19, 2025, 06:48:27 PM
They're imports, a lot are made in Turkey. Another reason I'm not huge on spending the money, I like to support U.S. made products and manufacturers. Still, I'm considering one, and a couple of higher capacity magazines. If I can make it reliable....
However, I just bought a DSA Gray Wolf FAL clone, DM rifle. It needs a scope, rings, a rear sight, a fire control upgrade, and a couple of spare magazines. I'm working on a battle rifle collection. I need another Garand, an M-14 and a BM-59 (James River makes nice examples of both), and a G3. CMP is apparently going to have new Garands, forged receiver and match grade barrels, they're setting up to manufacture. I'd like to have an original again, too.
There are several world class firearm manufactures in Turkey. Canik, Girsan, Sarsilmaz (SAR USA) and Tisas to name a few. I own six pistols made there. Indeed, Girsan makes a clone of the Beretta 92/M9 series that has better machining and finish than my Beretta M9A1. For 30% less money. These pistols have passed NATO testing, being approved and are in service with several militaries and police forces. Their "race" guns are outstanding. Engineered for competition, they have the preferred bells and whistles. Their 1911s are also excellent and great values. Photo of two Girsan Beretta types.
I get why some folks prefer not to support Turk businesses. However, many of those guys think nothing about putting Chinese made optics on the pistols. Indeed, if you want to spend under $500 for a quality optic, Chinese made (Holosun, Osight, Cyelee, Crimson Trace, CVlife, etc) are the primary options. Even Burris and Bushnell red dots are assembled in China.
There are several world class firearm manufactures in Turkey. Canik, Girsan, Sarsilmaz (SAR USA) and Tisas to name a few. I own six pistols made there. Indeed, Girsan makes a clone of the Beretta 92/M9 series that has better machining and finish than my Beretta M9A1. For 30% less money. These pistols have passed NATO testing, being approved and are in service with several militaries and police forces. Their "race" guns are outstanding. Engineered for competition, they have the preferred bells and whistles. Their 1911s are also excellent and great values. Photo of two Girsan Beretta types.
I get why some folks prefer not to support Turk businesses. However, many of those guys think nothing about putting Chinese made optics on the pistols. Indeed, if you want to spend under $500 for a quality optic, Chinese made (Holosun, Osight, Cyelee, Crimson Trace, CVlife, etc) are the primary options. Even Burris and Bushnell red dots are assembled in China.
Agreed. I may be actually being a bit harsh. But I don't have anything from china, or any place like it, in my "arsenal". I may change my mind. I don't have any trick optics. I think some of my scopes are South Korean. I absolutely get what you're saying.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Widewing on August 21, 2025, 12:29:05 PM
Agreed. I may be actually being a bit harsh. But I don't have anything from china, or any place like it, in my "arsenal". I may change my mind. I don't have any trick optics. I think some of my scopes are South Korean. I absolutely get what you're saying.
I really dislike having to buy Chinese products. However, mismanagement of American business and so-called "Globalization" (just an excuse to export manufacturing to increase bottom lines) has caused us to have few choices. We own e-bikes and electric scooters. All were manufactured in China. There are American companies who manufacture these products, but most of them use Chinese motors, controllers and brake components. Moreover, you end up paying almost double. Then there's the name brand price gouging in firearms.
Here's an example. A Glock G19 MOS will cost right around $600. The MOS indicates their optic mounting option. However, you have to use an adapter plate which elevates the optic and costs extra to buy. Glocks sold in the US are, for the most part, assembled in the USA.
Compare that to the Ruger RXM. This pistol is based upon the Glock Gen 3 design. It has direct mounting of optics without adapter plates using hardware included. All major footprints are accommodated. The optic sits lower on the slide. The RXM has suppressor height sights, allowing their use through the optic glass. Unlike the Glock, it is a modular pistol with a serialized Fire Control Insert. This allows the pistol's action to be transferred to different frames in about 5 minutes. Magpul makes the grip frame, with much improved ergonomics and textures. They make alternate grip frames in various colors and ammo capacities. These cost about $38. You can put a Glock slide assy on the RXM and it works. You can put the RXM slide assy on a Glock and it works. The RXM uses Magpul Glock compatible magazines and any Glock G17 or G19 factory magazines. Reliability is no different than Glock. Every component is made in the USA. It is assembled in the USA. Yet, the RXM costs as much as $200 less than a Glock G19 MOS. So, even though I own a G19, I would not have bought it if the RXM was available at that time. The RXM is everything the Glock should be. This is why Glock is gradually losing market share. They no longer innovate, but prefer to rest on their original design, updating only as necessary. Meanwhile, companies like S&W, Ruger, CZ, SIG, Beretta, SAR, Walther, Canik, and many others are innovating and gaining market share at Glock's expense. Stores can't keep S&W Bodyguard 2.0 and Shield X handguns in stock. Both extremely popular for concealed carry. Size, weight, ergos, and ease of shooting are first rate. Meanwhile, Glock still offers decade old designs that are inferior in every metric, except reliability, which is not better than those new Smith & Wesson pistols. Oh, and the S&W pistols are optic ready and cost less.
So, there are quality American made pistols available that are as good or better than offshore competition. However, unless you have deep pockets, you will likely have to buy Chinese if you want a red dot optic.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 21, 2025, 04:55:32 PM
I really dislike having to buy Chinese products. However, mismanagement of American business and so-called "Globalization" (just an excuse to export manufacturing to increase bottom lines) has caused us to have few choices. We own e-bikes and electric scooters. All were manufactured in China. There are American companies who manufacture these products, but most of them use Chinese motors, controllers and brake components. Moreover, you end up paying almost double. Then there's the name brand price gouging in firearms.
Here's an example. A Glock G19 MOS will cost right around $600. The MOS indicates their optic mounting option. However, you have to use an adapter plate which elevates the optic and costs extra to buy. Glocks sold in the US are, for the most part, assembled in the USA.
Compare that to the Ruger RXM. This pistol is based upon the Glock Gen 3 design. It has direct mounting of optics without adapter plates using hardware included. All major footprints are accommodated. The optic sits lower on the slide. The RXM has suppressor height sights, allowing their use through the optic glass. Unlike the Glock, it is a modular pistol with a serialized Fire Control Insert. This allows the pistol's action to be transferred to different frames in about 5 minutes. Magpul makes the grip frame, with much improved ergonomics and textures. They make alternate grip frames in various colors and ammo capacities. These cost about $38. You can put a Glock slide assy on the RXM and it works. You can put the RXM slide assy on a Glock and it works. The RXM uses Magpul Glock compatible magazines and any Glock G17 or G19 factory magazines. Reliability is no different than Glock. Every component is made in the USA. It is assembled in the USA. Yet, the RXM costs as much as $200 less than a Glock G19 MOS. So, even though I own a G19, I would not have bought it if the RXM was available at that time. The RXM is everything the Glock should be. This is why Glock is gradually losing market share. They no longer innovate, but prefer to rest on their original design, updating only as necessary. Meanwhile, companies like S&W, Ruger, CZ, SIG, Beretta, SAR, Walther, Canik, and many others are innovating and gaining market share at Glock's expense. Stores can't keep S&W Bodyguard 2.0 and Shield X handguns in stock. Both extremely popular for concealed carry. Size, weight, ergos, and ease of shooting are first rate. Meanwhile, Glock still offers decade old designs that are inferior in every metric, except reliability, which is not better than those new Smith & Wesson pistols. Oh, and the S&W pistols are optic ready and cost less.
So, there are quality American made pistols available that are as good or better than offshore competition. However, unless you have deep pockets, you will likely have to buy Chinese if you want a red dot optic.
Same. I've always been seriously annoyed by not having reasonably priced U.S. sourced options. It really angered me when certain people were buying up U.S. companies, parting them out, and sending the jobs overseas. It's never made sense to me, if you send jobs overseas, how do people here buy your product? Driving manufacturing out of the country has to rank right up there with government run schools in the stupidity category.
And now we have this group of idiots and their "private equity" corporations. They buy up businesses, and then kill every part of the product line that isn't an "A mover" in the warehouses, and all of the custom stuff, too. It drives people out of their hobbies, and makes business for guys like me nearly impossible. Most of the time, the "private equity" corporation makes their money, makes it look like the company is doing well because the 30 day bottom line looks good, sells the company, and the company dies.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Widewing on August 24, 2025, 10:34:30 PM
Same. I've always been seriously annoyed by not having reasonably priced U.S. sourced options. It really angered me when certain people were buying up U.S. companies, parting them out, and sending the jobs overseas. It's never made sense to me, if you send jobs overseas, how do people here buy your product? Driving manufacturing out of the country has to rank right up there with government run schools in the stupidity category.
And now we have this group of idiots and their "private equity" corporations. They buy up businesses, and then kill every part of the product line that isn't an "A mover" in the warehouses, and all of the custom stuff, too. It drives people out of their hobbies, and makes business for guys like me nearly impossible. Most of the time, the "private equity" corporation makes their money, makes it look like the company is doing well because the 30 day bottom line looks good, sells the company, and the company dies.
Indeed. That's what killed Remington and Marlin. Both were acquired by Freedom Group holding company which had no understanding of firearms manufacturing or what the market sees as important. They shut down Marlin's factory and moved manufacturing to cheaper labor states. Almost everyone was fired. They lost all of the tribal knowledge and know-how. Quality went straight into the trash. Badly managed, Freedom Group sold off individual companies. Marlin was bought by Ruger. Ruger knows how to manufacture guns. They hired some of the fired old salts and today produce outstanding Marlin rifles. Remington was purchased by a Czech company that formed RemArms, LLC to revive the brand. They are manufacturing the 870 shotgun and 700 series riles lines. Remington Ammunition was bought by Vista Outdoor and invested in new tooling. Their ammo business is booming and quality is very good. So, there are companies who understand the industry and are willing to invest in quality and service.
Title: Re: Sig 365
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on August 25, 2025, 08:35:51 PM
Indeed. That's what killed Remington and Marlin. Both were acquired by Freedom Group holding company which had no understanding of firearms manufacturing or what the market sees as important. They shut down Marlin's factory and moved manufacturing to cheaper labor states. Almost everyone was fired. They lost all of the tribal knowledge and know-how. Quality went straight into the trash. Badly managed, Freedom Group sold off individual companies. Marlin was bought by Ruger. Ruger knows how to manufacture guns. They hired some of the fired old salts and today produce outstanding Marlin rifles. Remington was purchased by a Czech company that formed RemArms, LLC to revive the brand. They are manufacturing the 870 shotgun and 700 series riles lines. Remington Ammunition was bought by Vista Outdoor and invested in new tooling. Their ammo business is booming and quality is very good. So, there are companies who understand the industry and are willing to invest in quality and service.
In the process, they killed ParaOrdnance AND DPMS. I have multiple Para 1911 pistols, all are awesome. I have three DPMS rifles, including 2 of the short action 308 rifles.
Damned shame what happened.
It's even worse in the high performance automotive business. Titans of the industry, old school businesses, have been bought and wrecked. It's next to impossible to serve my customers, I can't buy parts. And nothing custom can be bought without months of lead time, and massive deposits, at best. Some companies don't even have staff on hand to design and develop parts. It's literally driving customers out of the hobby and sport.