Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on May 24, 2000, 05:24:00 PM
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Well... about as definitive as your going to find. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have always seen many different opinons on the Ta-152's, how many were made, how many saw combat, and a couple of other arguements.
So today I went completely thru "Focke Wulf Ta152, The Story of the Luftwaffe's Late War High Altitude Fighter", by Dietmar Harmann, ISBN # 0-7643-0860-2. This book was originally published in German under the title "Focke Wulf Ta152: Der Weg zum Hohenjager." For those of you unfamiliar with this book, its the equivalent of American's Hundred Thousand, for the Ta-152. It contains detailed technical drawings, flight test data, design and development history, combat history, and an accounting of all known werk numbers.
So here is the question, "How many Ta-152s were produced, and how many of those saw Comabt?"
The Answer:
- 3 Prototype Ta-152A's (all converted from earlier 190 models and test aircraft)
- 4 Prototype Ta-152B's (only 1 prototype aircraft actually flew)
- 4 Prototype Ta-152C's (all converted from earlier 190 models and test aircraft)
- 2 Ta-152C's produced
- 7 Prototype Ta-152H's
- 43 Ta-152H0's and Ta-152H1's produced
Total: 25 Prototypes, and 45 Production Aircraft produced.
Of the 45 production aircraft, 16 were destroyed or seriously damaged before delivery to the Luftwaffe on 16 Jan '45, by a raid of P-51 Mustangs and P-38 Lightings at the airfield where they were awaiting delivery . Additionally, another 4 aircraft are documented to have crashed and been written off before they were used in service. Other aircraft are known to have crashed or crashed landed, and these were known to have been repaired or used for parts to repair other serviceable aircraft, total number unknown.
So therefore, other than the use of prototype aircraft, a total of 23 Ta-152H's, and two Ta-152C's saw actual combat service.
Some other interesting information:
- In combat the pilots of Ta-152's claimed 10 enemy kills (mostly Yak-9's), while losing 2 of their own.
- The highest number of Ta-152's in combat service at any one time was when III/JG301 received their initial delivery of 11 aircraft on 27 Jan '45.
- Typical unit strength was around 8 aircraft, with only 75% of these operational.
- The Ta-152H0 was not used with MW50 in active service due to engine problems, and GM1 was not installed.
- The Ta-152H1 was initially equipped only with active MW50 systems. Only the last few aircraft were equipped with GM1 systems (not including prototypes).
- It is not known if any GM1 Ta-152H1's actually encountered enemy aircraft (no documented encounters).
So thats about it. I hope this clears up the whole Ta-152 "numbers" issue.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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(two hours after above post)
I think the LW lobby is speechless.
What a novel condition. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
(two hours after above post)
I think the LW lobby is speechless.
What a novel condition. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 05-24-2000).]
ROFL!
MEEEEC Hang.Wrong one! I answered...on Aircraft/Vehicles forum. Verm posted the data there, too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-24-2000).]
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If you guys get a ta152 i want a p38k (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Uhhh! ,
Didn't see the other post? What's your point? The Ta 152 wasn't made in big numbers, YEA! It wasn't a fantasy plane. It saw combat. It was used to shoot down planes. It had an Ace with 5 kills. One still exists at the Smithsonian. The F4-c had a couple hundred made. How many saw combat in WW2? How many pilots made Ace in it. Do any exist today? I want to fly rare planes, too! The F4-c made it to AH as a developement of the earlier F4. The Ta 152 was a developement of the Fw 190 which was made in far more numbers than the F4U and saw much more combat. What's your criteria? A certain number made? Did it see combat? Did it reach production? Will those "mean bad men, (sniff sniff) who fly Luftwaffe planes have something new to fly"! "Mommy, Johnny got a new plane this version, and not me. It's just not fair (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)!" If we ever get a British Meteor modeled are we going to have to wait until the V1 is modeled so we can have an historical match up? I wanna see every plane that flew in WW2 modeled. Why limit yourself to planes that have been modeled to death in other sims?
P.S. The early H-0 was lighter and had it's boost increased. So not having the GM-1 wasn't as bad as it sounds. That is a good book on a rare(<<< Oh God! I said it !! The secrets out) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) plane! Silent no more :P
Berserkr
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Sifter-
F4u-c saw extensive action, both in flight and in okinawa? as jabo planes.
It was retired, I believe, because they no longer wanted to produce or arm the hispano cannons they carried when everything else used .50 cal.
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Guys I wasn't trying to make a statement on "shoulde we or shouldn't we" have the Ta-152. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I was honestly curious since I had heard this debate many times over, and I had recently purchased what I considered the ultimate source on Ta-152's, and thought I would share the information with you all.
Thats it, don't read anything more into my post. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Verm, Great info, thanks!
Sifter, I think you are mistaken as far as the 1C seeing action.
My opinion is the Ta152 flew in WWII, there was an Ta152 Ace, and if you are going to have the cannon Hog < which never ever made it to the front>, I see no reason why the Ta152 should not be made available. I think the effort made by the LW to even create 40+ operational aircraft during the last months of the war, was an order of magnitude greater than the Industrial Giant US making 200 1Cs.
Ash
I./JG2
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Great Info Verm, I wonder what ur Source is, mine says exactly the same (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Fellows, Don't get emotional again :O.
ASH: Totally agree!!!!!!!!!!1111
Maik
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/maik.jpg)
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 05-25-2000).]
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The F4U-1C was a small production run of the Corsair that featured four 20mm cannons in place of the normal armament of six .50 caliber machine-guns. Vought produced 200 F4U-1Cs. The 1Cs first saw combat during the Okinawa campaign where they saw heavy action. VMF-311 was equipped with the 1C and tallied 71 victories during that campaign. VF-85 was also furnished with 1Cs and recorded 40 victories in the Okinawa campaign and later over mainland Japan.
So the F4u1C tallied up 111 kills. Thats alot of planes.
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Fdiron is correct. It was the -4B (-4 series cannon Corsair) that may or may not have seen combat.
It is definitely recorded that Cannon Corsairs saw extensive combat over Okinawa and the Japanese homeland. So if your saying -1C's never saw combat, you must then be in the camp that says they were using the -4B's.
FYI if you think -1C's were nasty, the -4B is a total nightmare. Imagine a -1C that is 40 mph faster, with alot better climb and acceleration.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Gentlemen, I stand corrected on the Corsair issue. Thank You.
But I still see no reason why the Ta-152 could not be implemented. Especially, with the 1C out.
Ash
I./JG2
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Ash, personally I would have no problem with a Ta-152 in the arena, but be careful what you ask for (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Below 20k the 190D9 is a far superior aircraft to the Ta-152 in an arena style of combat like what we see.
In fact at SL, the Ta-152 is very slow compared to even the Fw190A8 we have in AH.
You would be much happier with a Dora (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Certainly a D9 should come before 152's are even thought about but even then, for play balance, we should have planes like the -4 Corsair, Spit 14,47M,N, etc.
lazs
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Verm,
I definitely agree with you on the Dora and hope to see them soon < will probably be my ride of choice!>. Right now with no real strat and non-historical "set-ups", AH is more of a "fantasy" type arena. And when I think of fantasy, I think Ta-152 :-)! Personally, I am really looking forward to the new AC coming on line soon.
OTR,
Ash
I./JG2
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm not getting emotional.Sorry! I didn't mean for it to sound that way. I was mainly commenting on Hangtimes post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Gotta make sure someone gives him alittle toejam. That way somebody will buy me a beer at the con? Hangtime you owe me a Miller Lite at the con. Why? Just because! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) This is a game! I save the emotions for the real life problems.
I have that book, If you spent $35 on it you must be a fan of most WW2 planes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ASH,
The F4U-C in combat,was a real question. I guess I made that sound retorical? DOHH! I definitely want the 190D. But, I think the turning ability of the Ta 152 is something I want to see. The combat between the Ta 152 and Tempest mentioned in the Harmann book (and in the Osprey 190 book) indicate that the Ta 152 was a great turning plane. And that it had plenty of power to fight a Tempest at treetop level. The YAK-9 is going to be a potent plane. Not too many people are worried about it??? It will be a nasty foe! Berserkr- If I keep sounding emotional? I'll have to start flying a Spitfire. Ack! I'm getting a Rash! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well said Ash!
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jag1.jpg)
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 05-26-2000).]
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for all FW fans:
best book for FW & ta152's is:
FOCKE WULF Fw190/Ta152
by Manfred Griehl&Joachim Dressel.
ISBN: 3-613-01681-8
it was quite expensive (around 78german marks) but it's worth every buck.
btw, DIETMAR HERMANN copied very much from
that book into his "Focke Wulf Ta152" book,
mentioned above. have it too, but wasn't
worth the money if you have the book from
griehl&dressel.
it's the best technical book of an fighter
i have.
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habicht.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 05-26-2000).]
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hehe i dont know how many canon hog seen action :-) mean in WW2
anyway i dont care about the Ta i be realy hapy with the lovely 190 D 9 and up 10, 12
ya and dont forget cut down the laser 303 :-)
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Heh, the TA would be nice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Soon the Yak-9 will be out and will make the 190 series as obsolete as New Kids On The Block (cannot understand I still can recall that name).
Based on what I've read on the board, the Yak will do everything the 109 can do, and do it better, except high alt fighting. Considering that 75% of all fights (or more, this is a conservative number) end up below 12k 109 pilots should be aware (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
109G10 on steroids that can turn. EEEK.
Mommy, where's my A5? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)