General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 08:59:37 AM
Title: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 08:59:37 AM
ATC needs more AI integration and an eventual handoff. This looks like ATC error but an investigation will reveal all. AI would not have made this mistake.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: LilMak on March 23, 2026, 09:37:34 AM
Until AI is flying the plane and driving the truck as well as controlling the traffic, this is not something that can be prevented 100%.
Even if AI controlled all of it, AI would still be forced to occasionally make decisions based on potential outcomes with deadly consequences.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 10:03:16 AM
AI could require acknowledgement from the truck to hold short runway xx and without that give the plane an abort/go around. Humans make mistakes for sure but the fewer humans in the mix the fewer mistakes.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 10:07:56 AM
AI can fly planes and drive trucks but barring that a system on any vehicle operating on the airfield could have integration with big red/green lights showing clearance to enter runways or not.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Busher on March 23, 2026, 11:04:07 AM
Installation of AI into a certain mansion might help the world's crises. The only "A" there now is skin color but sadly there is no "I" at all.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 11:15:13 AM
Shouldn't you be screaming at the sky?
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Busher on March 23, 2026, 11:21:43 AM
Why would I do that? I like the sky.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Spikes on March 23, 2026, 12:00:54 PM
We want AI to deal with complex situations and mathematical equations that tend to leave little room for error? Sure, sounds great.
(https://i.ibb.co/VYygq1gk/image.png)
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 12:05:29 PM
This will apparently be news for some but AI is and has been flying planes and driving cars for a while now. Most of your last commercial flight was handled by AI.
Of course "AI" is not limited to chatgpt or LLMs. Auto pilots are a limited form of AI.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 12:19:40 PM
It'll happen in stages and already is. Eventually there will only be human overseers. Later, not even that.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Eagler on March 23, 2026, 12:20:06 PM
Peace to the families of the pilots...what an avoidable way to go...
Eagler
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: JimmyD3 on March 23, 2026, 12:49:52 PM
FYI, AI is not the answer to everything. :D
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: LilMak on March 23, 2026, 01:29:40 PM
This will apparently be news for some but AI is and has been flying planes and driving cars for a while now. Most of your last commercial flight was handled by AI.
Of course "AI" is not limited to chatgpt or LLMs. Auto pilots are a limited form of AI.
Comparing an autopilot to AI is like saying a third grader and a physicist can both solve math equations.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 02:01:23 PM
Comparing an autopilot to AI is like saying a third grader and a physicist can both solve math equations.
True but an autopilot can already takeoff, fly to a destination, and land a plane. With more brains it can do that and handle emergencies too. It could also link to an AI controller communicating thousands of times faster than humans and error free.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Randy1 on March 23, 2026, 02:06:06 PM
I thought it was interesting using the add description of the truck, ". . . and company." There seemed to be an awkwardness to that when the controller spoke. A disruption in his rhythm for sure.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKKuya on March 23, 2026, 02:16:57 PM
We need MORE human air traffic controllers WITH less responsibilities. DELEGATION is key to the system. Each controller is assigned a specific task and or smaller geographical area.
AI is simply a tool for the humans in DECISION making.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: LilMak on March 23, 2026, 03:06:45 PM
True but an autopilot can already takeoff, fly to a destination, and land a plane. With more brains it can do that and handle emergencies too. It could also link to an AI controller communicating thousands of times faster than humans and error free.
I understand what you’re getting at but I can say (as an insider) that, even with the technology in currently place, there are hard limits to what we’re capable of at this point. It’s not so much about training AI so much as it is about the infrastructure that still needs to catch up and the ability to integrate all the systems. Air traffic is an unbelievably complex set of systems that have been built in for over a hundred years. It’s not some mainframe somewhere you can just swap out for a new one.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Busher on March 23, 2026, 04:41:12 PM
I understand what you’re getting at but I can say (as an insider) that, even with the technology in currently place, there are hard limits to what we’re capable of at this point. It’s not so much about training AI so much as it is about the infrastructure that still needs to catch up and the ability to integrate all the systems. Air traffic is an unbelievably complex set of systems that have been built in for over a hundred years. It’s not some mainframe somewhere you can just swap out for a new one.
You are exactly on point. I am a retired airline pilot with a little over 30,000 hours in various airplanes.
The poster that claims AI can do these miraculous feats with no need for pilots clearly has no knowledge of aviation beyond AH. While it likely will come in the future the dollars and technology needed to create an autonomous aviation system are a long way off.
Just to clarify one of the false statements only one major transport-category jet is currently certified for fully automatic (autonomous) takeoff:
It's the Airbus A350‑1000 with the Airbus Autonomous Takeoff system. This capability was demonstrated and validated in 2020, but it is not yet in routine airline service.
Autoland is nothing new. It was developed in the 1960s and as most pilots with an instrument rating know that the runways used for Cat II and Cat III landings have advanced equipment only installed at major airports.
In closing I would love to know how the eggheads are going to teach a computer how to deviate around convective weather as well as an experienced human.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 23, 2026, 06:42:09 PM
I understand what you’re getting at but I can say (as an insider) that, even with the technology in currently place, there are hard limits to what we’re capable of at this point. It’s not so much about training AI so much as it is about the infrastructure that still needs to catch up and the ability to integrate all the systems. Air traffic is an unbelievably complex set of systems that have been built in for over a hundred years. It’s not some mainframe somewhere you can just swap out for a new one.
I was an ATC radar tech for 20 years in the Air Force. I know how complex the systems are. It will take some time but it is coming. There will still be mechanical failures but human error will become a welcome thing of the past.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Busher on March 23, 2026, 10:30:44 PM
I was an ATC radar tech for 20 years in the Air Force. I know how complex the systems are. It will take some time but it is coming. There will still be mechanical failures but human error will become a welcome thing of the past.
I think you might consider re-focusing your desire to implement AI in the interest of safety.
General aviation deaths in airplanes since 2020 (and this includes many operations beyond scheduled airlines) is 118.
Highway Traffic fatalities only in 2025 was over 37,000 (which was happily, a 12% improvement over 2024).
I don't think the money needs be spent in aviation.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 24, 2026, 06:27:04 AM
My desire, and yours, are irrelevant. People demand air travel to be the safest it can be made to be. AI will prove to be the best solution.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: icepac on March 24, 2026, 06:49:29 AM
AI is still naive and wrong often.
I remember the earliest days of attempting AI where we used the texas instruments MVP chipset and later nestor Ni1000 neural network chipset but, even then, the data that makes up a knowledge base was massive.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Eagler on March 24, 2026, 07:14:03 AM
Hopefully they do what is safest not most profitable..
Then again lawsuits are very expensive..
Eagler
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 24, 2026, 08:04:17 AM
There's really no excuse for what happened in this accident. There are strict procedures in place to prevent this sort of thing. Airports are not the wild west. Even if the emergency vehicle was given clearance to enter the active they should have looked. If you watched the video you can see how they should have seen the aircraft.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: LilMak on March 24, 2026, 11:11:26 AM
There's really no excuse for what happened in this accident. There are strict procedures in place to prevent this sort of thing. Airports are not the wild west. Even if the emergency vehicle was given clearance to enter the active they should have looked. If you watched the video you can see how they should have seen the aircraft.
Which critically points out the fallacy of just plugging in AI into ATC as the solution that will magically fix everything. There was still a human in the truck. I doubt people will want to simply give over everything to our AI overlords in the name of safety. There WILL be pushback and there are cost prohibitive limits. For example, maybe the fire truck needs special autonomous equipment. That would be expensive. What about lawn mowers? (that grass between the taxiway and runway doesn't mow itself) Aircraft tugs? Do baggage handlers need shock collars to prevent them from walking in front of aircraft? What about personal aircraft? Would I have to retrofit that equipment a 1948 Cessna 170 in order to fly it? This is just the stuff that immediately pops into my head without much thought.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 24, 2026, 11:35:32 AM
The video I watched showed the truck was cleared to cross. Then the controller realized his error and called for the truck to stop. AI would not have cleared the truck to cross. The most responsible for this was the controller.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 24, 2026, 11:41:17 AM
People have always embraced new technology reluctantly then once accepted can't live without it. I can think of no better use of AI than in air traffic. It's easy enough to simulate an airport environment to train and evaluate AI. I'd be surprised if that's not already being done.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: icepac on March 24, 2026, 02:02:27 PM
Ground control has deteriorated ever since kennedy steve retired.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Randy1 on March 24, 2026, 02:31:49 PM
When I was involved in power plant accident reviews for the root cause analysis, the first thing you had to do was push human error out of the review process. You have to this to avoid what you might call a rubber stamp decision. You have to identify all things that influenced the accident occurring. That list would be quite long.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: hazmatt on March 25, 2026, 10:25:02 AM
What happens if everything is controlled by ai, and the hardware or power that's running the ai fails?
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Shuffler on March 25, 2026, 12:36:10 PM
This will apparently be news for some but AI is and has been flying planes and driving cars for a while now. Most of your last commercial flight was handled by AI.
Of course "AI" is not limited to chatgpt or LLMs. Auto pilots are a limited form of AI.
AI has killed quite a few folks to date. Or what is called AI now.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: LilMak on March 25, 2026, 12:48:54 PM
AI has killed quite a few folks to date. Or what is called AI now.
There’s some truth to this. I remember a joke from way back in the day about pilots of the Boeing 777. Something to the effect “I don’t remember how to fly but I can type 40 words per minute now.”
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 25, 2026, 02:02:22 PM
AI is winning air combat in real life military competitions. You think it can't drive an airbus?
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: Randy1 on March 25, 2026, 02:16:52 PM
Most are really over thinking AI performance. You still have to in some way ask AI. AI then applies all that it knows through learning. The great scary day will be when AI starts to ask it's own questions then provides it's own answer then implements changes.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: AKIron on March 25, 2026, 02:18:21 PM
That is already happening to a limited degree. AI is being given the ability to modify itself.
Title: Re: Plane crash
Post by: LilMak on March 25, 2026, 02:26:06 PM