Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on July 25, 2001, 01:35:00 PM
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(Read this as a whine if you want, but this is getting lame)
And when is it going to be fixed?
I am getting tired of 20mm and 40mm single ping wing / tail loss or just death while I am flying past AA at over 350MPH TAS.
Why is it that an N1K can come to a field and lazily turn around and though AA, methodically killing each one without being shot down?
Why is it a B-17 can fly over a VH at less than 500 feet and not be shot down? (Saw this happen yesterday after pinging up the B17 and left him go for AA to finish the job)
Why is it a TBM can fly at 2000 feet, straight and level through all AA at a Large field and not be shot down?
I am getting so frustrated by this garbage that the AA can't hit jack when it's low and slow, but when you fly a Mustang near it at 350 or so, it single pings you and you loose major components.
It just happened to me 2x at A29.
I was at 10k, started a dive, fired rockets at 8k, killed ammo and 1 AA gun, began a climbout and right turn, BANG half right wing shot off!
Second hop, attacking a spit near the deck, can't get kill shot, turn to SE corner AA to kill it as I go past at 400 TAS, BANG entire right wing shot off!
Something really needs to be done. It makes it very un-enjoyable when I keep seeing this same kind of BS every time.
:mad: :mad:
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reminds me of the Guided lazer ACK from 10K and up.. lol
I can be around 30k doing 450 IAS and pass over a field.. or even 10 miles SOUTH of a field,, and BOOM.. 1 ping death.. or always... 1 ping engine gone
maybe its a part of the flight model ? :D
but how would I know anyway oh well
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I don't know if anything is wrong or not... but I have noticed that I die to flak bursts a lot easier in a P51 than in other planes. I have also noticed as a field gunner at times I can't hit planes... they fly straight at me from 3K to over my head with me firing straight at them the entire time... and I don't hit them. Also, but probably unrelated is the LVTs that you can continually fire right through but not hit near the shore line.
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I a firm believer that I have been cursed by Flak ever since my multi-vulch AW days.
Bad Karma :)
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T&B'ers have a much easier time deack and surviving acks.
Speed is not protectio. Twisting and turning is, even if it's at speeds at 150mh.
In 109F8, I often die deacking a field. In Zeke, i can lazily turn around right over the field taking out acks with ease.
Severly biased weird ack at the moment.
I prefer the old ones.
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I think the solution is to turn off AI AAA. Force players to man the guns to defend an airfield.
That way, it becomes a country effort to defend a threatened airfield and not having to rely on AI to shoot down aircraft.
Current AI gunners are either too damn stupid or too damn good. No grey area of just average...
Vruth, First Lieutenant, F3D1S1L, AirCom, MS
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/brandor/images/412.gif)
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Well, I bet it taught you all to stay out of the ack. :)
-SW
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A simple solution: make all AI ack be .303 and let the HUMAN PLAYERS man the 37 and 40mm.
No more single ping kill, running to ack will not be very effective anymore.
To make up for the lack in firepower, just add MORE .303 acks. Id say if a small field has 20 .303 it'd be good. any single strafer would get some damage or be shot down by that mass of lead...specially at short range.
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I did some test and tried to be as accurate as i possible could. I took a F4u-c up to 10k dove to 400 ias and 2.5k alt flew strait and level down the runway of a field and not a single ping at all. Did the same with a p-51. I never even got close to the field and i was shot down. I Tried this 20 times with both planes. F4U made it throught all 20 times , P-51 never made it through not once. I usually try to stay away from post like this but i had to step in on this one.
RWY
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Originally posted by Robert:
I did some test and tried to be as accurate as i possible could. I took a F4u-c up to 10k dove to 400 ias and 2.5k alt flew strait and level down the runway of a field and not a single ping at all. Did the same with a p-51. I never even got close to the field and i was shot down. I Tried this 20 times with both planes. F4U made it throught all 20 times , P-51 never made it through not once. I usually try to stay away from post like this but i had to step in on this one.
RWY
Now THAT is very interesting and disturbing! :eek:
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Same with Typhoon, I know for a fact that if I fly around 250mph and below I should be safe, but at higher speeds, and especially around 550mph (from dive) I know for a fact that I'll lose my tail... always. Surely speed must help?
Regards
Nexx
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Now ain't THAT interesting!!
I'm able to deack a field with a light pony.. but only slowly. Fast passes gets me killed.
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Well I am glad that some of you also see these very strange things with AA.
RWY.. Thank you for taking the time to do such a test. I think that we can all trust your results as factual. Nice job.
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ahhh, was wondering what was up with that too.
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Bad idea to have us man the guns at the base for defense, Lazs wont like it, all he wants to do is fly, and that would just spoil the game for him. Why not just give all the AI poor eyesight.
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Apparently nobody knows how a AA sight works, very high speed will help in RL if you're low due to exposure time but higher it just makes it easier to hit you, ever heard of jinxing? hard to do at 300-450. Even early WW2 alot of AA sights were set for fast planes only and when ships were attacked by biplanes like Swordfish they couldn't be shot down, the Germans learned it the hard way with a couple of the crown jewels of their fleet-their battleships. As far as the AA in AH, in the 3 years i've played i've been shot down once..yes once by flak, in a p38 vulching a large field then chasing a typhoon at sea level, but that was only after the flak pinged me 2 times earlier. I tried the p51 out in the AA, still ez to kill the aa and just fly off to the the next base and kill them and the next base also, so don't know what the problem some people have with the p51.
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Can you post a film of this B52Charlie, not that I don't believe you, I do, have seen others go thru a large field and kill all ack. I'd like the film so I can see how the hell you do it, I always die in ack?
and yep have tried real fast, jinking, slow etc, still die?
Chow
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The only one I know that repeatedly can strafe down acks in a b&z'er without dying all the time is blitz. I'd be interested in seeing films too, especially of first 1 base, then another, then a third :)
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Charlie,
__________________
Apparently nobody knows how a AA sight works, very high speed will help in RL if you're low due to exposure time but higher it just makes it easier to hit you, ever heard of jinxing?
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Yeah, I've heard of it...it's where you put a curse on someone. I curse the Ack a lot but good thing my mic aint on.
I do wonder about that lazer beam ack sometimes myself. Is it supposed to be radar directed? It seems to be that accurate to me. The closer you get to an ack gun the more deadly it is too which strikes me as how radar calculated lead would work too. Normally, a round has some distance to travel and it'll take a few seconds time to reach an aircraft but in that few seconds the aircraft might actually change course. Close range, the chances of survival in AH are much less.
If not, is it barrage fire tactics or can you consider the guns mounted by men trying to visually track an aircraft while manipulating the manual optical sight to lead an aircraft? If the latter, it strikes me as being overly accurate in my opinion because it's not that easy a thing to do.
As for that big black puffy ack, that strikes me as being just eye candy and there is some calculation made by the simulation to determine if you are hit or not.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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I regularly deack fields in a pony without much trouble. Best to stay over 300kn when over the base. You need to work the edges first, hit the ack ur aiming at as far out as possible, as soon as u get a good burst into it, turn away, jink and or tight barrel roll. You cant fly straight, the ack will predict ur course. I usually come in at about a 45 degree angle to the ground. Pony has enough ammo to kill all the ack at a small field and then stay around and vulch a bit :)
CRASH
Originally posted by Midnight:
(Read this as a whine if you want, but this is getting lame)
And when is it going to be fixed?
I am getting tired of 20mm and 40mm single ping wing / tail loss or just death while I am flying past AA at over 350MPH TAS.
Why is it that an N1K can come to a field and lazily turn around and though AA, methodically killing each one without being shot down?
Why is it a B-17 can fly over a VH at less than 500 feet and not be shot down? (Saw this happen yesterday after pinging up the B17 and left him go for AA to finish the job)
Why is it a TBM can fly at 2000 feet, straight and level through all AA at a Large field and not be shot down?
I am getting so frustrated by this garbage that the AA can't hit jack when it's low and slow, but when you fly a Mustang near it at 350 or so, it single pings you and you loose major components.
It just happened to me 2x at A29.
I was at 10k, started a dive, fired rockets at 8k, killed ammo and 1 AA gun, began a climbout and right turn, BANG half right wing shot off!
Second hop, attacking a spit near the deck, can't get kill shot, turn to SE corner AA to kill it as I go past at 400 TAS, BANG entire right wing shot off!
Something really needs to be done. It makes it very un-enjoyable when I keep seeing this same kind of BS every time.
:mad: :mad:
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I know how to de-ack a field, and when I go to one for that purpose, I do it quite well.
What I am talking about is how these AA guns can hit a plane that is flying over 300 MPH even at long range, when in the other 2 examples I cited, it can't hit jack.
And not ment to be offensive, but I really don't care who thinks they can or have done it all the time or whatever. That is not the question I asked.
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This happens to me too. To such an extent i avoid going near flak emplacements or CVs completely in my p51. The real shame is when im on there aint too many people online and when its the island map its damned hard to find a any action without those pesky flak guns.
Cant comment on whether its just the p51 that seems to be an ack-magnet or not, as its about the only plane i fly.
Spat.
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No problems de-acking a base.
If you see hit-sprites in ack in your sights you're already almost dead.
I dive for ack with speed, use rudder to get plane in small sideslide, short burst and pull up without looking if I hit ack or not.
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I won't fly any where near the C.V. Flak, it's killed my spit at 20K out of visual range far too many times, it's the worst aspect of the game.
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FYI, ask Blitz about the P51D, he de-acks fields REGULARLY with the P51D, most times he takes out all the ack (minus VH ack) in 2 passes, I shiit you not. Maybe you just need to jinx alittle? Anyway, he has no problem, I personally don't use inline engines for de-acking, gimme a radial!
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Well, I've ran into a few field vh acks that refuse to die to 50 cal hits. A33 in the Mindando to be specific. :(
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FYI, ask Blitz about the P51D, he de-acks fields REGULARLY with the P51D, most times he takes out all the ack (minus VH ack) in 2 passes, I shiit you not. Maybe you just need to jinx alittle?
The question is not whether or not a p51 can deack a field. There is no question it can. I've done it, midnight has done it and many others. The thing is it seems like 90% of the time a P51 gets near ack of any type at just about any speed you hear CRACK and down you go.
With any of the other planes they can fly in and out of the ack at will without a ping.
How many times have you seen a P51 vulch a field and live to tell about it for 10 or 15 minutes when the ack is up?
I watched a niki, a 190, a p38, and an f4u do it just last night.
For whatever reason, the P51 seems to attract the ack like a fly to manure. There is something wrong and we're just trying to find out what it is and have it fixed.
Bane
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I believe that the way ack/flak is programmed is independant of the plane type.
It must run on a cyclic loop though. The closer you get, the easier it can hit you... the straighter you fly, the faster it tracks you and can compensate so it can hit you... the more you jinks, the more it's aim gets thrown off...
Maybe somewhere in the program though, there's a point at which the ack reaches that magic number in the speed area that it makes the ack aim faster and better.
Just speculating.
-SW
[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Seeing these terms mixed up a lot and maybe someone might be interested...
jinx = curse
jinks = quick, short maneuvers
-Puke
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
It must run on a cyclic loop though. The closer you get, the easier it can hit you... the straighter you fly, the faster it tracks you and can compensate so it can hit you... the more you jinks, the more it's aim gets thrown off...
Did anyone read my original post?
A B17 (That I had heavily damaged) at less than 1000 feet and slower than 250 MPH flew DIRECTLY across a Vehicle field with the AA shooting at it the whole time, and he LIVED. Prior to him going accorss the field, he had 2 engines out and MANY hits across both wings.
A TBM at about 2000 feet, flying STRAIGHT and LEVEL, again that I shot up, flew DIRECTLY over an ENTIRE large airfield without being shot down.
Both times I had to go back and finish the job that I was sure AA would do for me.
Now I can fly and kill AA in the P-51. I really don't care who else can at this point either. What I want to know is...
HOW do these other planes seem to be able to go right through with no problems when a P-51 gets a single ping of death almost every time?
Now if someone cares to actually address the original questions and problem observation, I would be glad to listen.
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I was describing to you how I think the program works. Since I program, I know how certain things go about doing things.
You obviously decided to not read my whole post either:
"Maybe somewhere in the program though, there's a point at which the ack reaches that magic number in the speed area that it makes the ack aim faster and better."
Maybe rather than getting irate and upity with people trying to clue you in, you could read and understand it better.
-SW
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Hey, I'm a programmer too and something just isn't right with the ACK. You are wrong swulfe.
It's either too accurate or too stupid and the P-51D suffers from easy damage when flying fast over any airbase. I know, I was brought down/damaged twice Friday over A8 - not by the 5 Nikies that were chasing me, but the one ping that AAA hit me doing a 500 TAS turn pass over the base and hit my radiator, and the second was a 550TAS bombing loop I did on the VH that hit my engine oil. WTF?
Magic in the programming? HUH? A special number that makes the AI gunners smarter?
Don't think so.
Something needs to be done. Either force manual operation of the AAA or fix the AI model so it's fair for all pilots.
V.
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Again... don't know what the cause of this is... but I have learned to stay away from Ack in a P51. Yes... I can kill ack... but if you are in range and don't kill it first... you are DEAD MEAT. Other planes... I've watched them fly back and forth over a field 15 times without a ping.
If you don't believe there is something a bit freaky with P51's and ack... fly over a large field at 25K or so and watch the first burst take you down. At first I though the ack was just super ack... but I can fly over a large field with a bomber and rarely does the ack bother me.
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Yes Vruth it's possible. Maybe you are thinking in terms of normal programs. The Ack has a central aiming point. It is programmed to randomly aim at or near that point. It is programmed to gradually get closer to that aiming point barring any manuevering.
It is quite possible that going over a certain speed triggers the ack to re-calculate faster.
"Magic in the programming? HUH? A special number that makes the AI gunners smarter?
Don't think so."
I didn't say that.. I see you are getting all high and mighty too.
-SW
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I've seen this too. Both offline and in H2H I can de-ack a field never exceeding 250mph in an Il-2. Not camping in the field, mind you, but making passes straight through it. The most damage I've taken was a shot off flap. I tried the same thing in a Typhoon at 350+ mph and what happens? Right aileron shot off, tail wheel shot off, right flap shot off. Tried it again, this time in a Tempest, and I lost my left wing on the first pass. It seems the ack is programmed to hit only fast-movers and leave the slow-pokes alone.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Originally posted by flakbait:
I've seen this too. Both offline and in H2H I can de-ack a field never exceeding 250mph in an Il-2. Not camping in the field, mind you, but making passes straight through it. The most damage I've taken was a shot off flap. I tried the same thing in a Typhoon at 350+ mph and what happens? Right aileron shot off, tail wheel shot off, right flap shot off. Tried it again, this time in a Tempest, and I lost my left wing on the first pass. It seems the ack is programmed to hit only fast-movers and leave the slow-pokes alone.
Thank you Flakbait! That compounded with what I said makes my statement hold more water, now doesn't it Vruth and Midnight?
-SW
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Maybe it does Wulf, but then what about RWY's test?
Maybe it's not just the P-51, but I don't fly other fighters, so I guess I won't know unless I get in and try.
But the point still stands as to why AA can hit a fast moving plane (not flying in a direct straight line) and not hit a big bomber or other slow mover.
AA guns of the type shown in AH were hand-cranked units with a simple iron sight. Do think it is realistic for the AA to be able to track a target moving so fast?
And another note, I just watched some AA shooting at a plane as it passed over the tower. As soon as the plane went over the AA gun, it INSTANTLY turned 180 degrees to start shooting again.
Strange thing though... it was a slow N1k and didn't take any hits, despite turning back around while still in the AA range and 3 or 4 guns still shooting at it the whole time.
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jinx = curse
jinks = quick, short maneuvers
One is 4 letters, one is 5, takes less effort to type 4 letters, just like Chog, rather than F4U-1C.. ;)
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Midnight, it is most likely related to how the ack is programmed to track it.
Coming it at high speeds and angled towards the ack probably means the ack tracks faster and reacquires it's target faster.
Flying straight over it (ie: in level flight, slowly) probably tricks the programming or it is programmed to not hit those kinds of targets.
Here's what I think (I'm not saying it's right.. but I think this is how it works):
As an aircraft picks up speed, the ack reaquires and concentrates it's fire faster. This becomes even worse if you are flying in towards the ack (ie: aiming your nose in the general direction of the ack). HT has been known to be very much against "vulching" if there is ack up. So maybe he programmed it so that it will aim and destroy planes faster that are going in towards the field as opposed to simply flying over it (although this makes the job of flying a bomber through ack way too easy)...
This is a possibility, and certainly should be revised if this is the case.
-SW
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Originally posted by Midnight:
Maybe it does Wulf, but then what about RWY's test?
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One test never concludes anything, you must have a baseline, you must repeat the test over and over again, with the same identical parameters, and by various end-users...I know, this is what I do for a living.
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I'm not convinced this is a speed related issue... because when I was at 25K in a heavy (bombs and rockets) P-51 I wasn't exactly moving fast.
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Speed is one of the factors Paxil.
OTOH, I am talking about Ack. At 25K there is no ack, only flak.
That uses a totally different algorithm.
-SW
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Ripsnort,
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One is 4 letters, one is 5, takes less effort to type 4 letters
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Heh heh. Okay. Just wanted to be clear you guys are actually maneuvering against the ack and not just yelling explatives at it.
-Puke
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wait... are u saying that the ack is much harder on planes over 10k and on mustangs in particular? If that is true... I don't really see any problem.
lazs