Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on April 11, 2001, 10:58:00 PM
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why else would it be in the game unless everyone found it added realism and was enjoyable?
correct?
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Originally posted by Citabria:
why else would it be in the game unless everyone found it added realism and was enjoyable?
correct?
Yea, its crazy. Flew over a field at 22k in a Lanc. On black poof and I was in the hangar. Its a bit weird.
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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At the risk of being flamed for going against the grain...
Anyone complaining about the tracking ability of the ack has a point IMHO. It doesn't ack like real gunners should, no doubt. Still, as an early iteration I think it is a good start and does introduce an element of risk to, yes, high bombers.
What I don't understand is people complaining about dying in one hit. The German 88 was feared with good reason; it could and did kill a large number of Allied bombers, many with a single hit (or even a near miss). That is what should happen if you are hit directly with a high-explosive 88mm anything.
It seemed to me that a large number of people really wanted ack, until we got it. Are we really suggesting the ack should be removed?
No doubt it is a huge pain in the butt to take off from a base under the enemy ack umbrella, but is that a modelling problem or is that a player issue? In real life no admiral would be crazy enough to use a carrier like a landing craft; it would get sunk, and it would take months to replace. We therefore see carriers virtually washing ashore, daring planes to lift off. I can say it wouldn't have taken the Allies so long to take back the Pacific Islands if it was that easy. What we have is a larger version of the respawn "problem"; it just doesn't matter that much if a carrier is lost, so risk it.
The absolute only thing I would think about touching on our current ack is the AI; it is ridiculously easy to get through field ack, and almost as easy to get around the fleet (at least in my experience anyway). Tone down the power of the ack and it just becomes so much pattern on the wallpaper.
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No flames from me, Kieran, and I agree with most everything you say here. But there seem to not be a whole lot of bombers in this game (I love to fly them and simply do not see a lot of them up in the air). Its somewhat of a frsutration to the bomber guys like me to take 45 minutes to get up to alt and cruise, and one poof of smoke and you are back in the tower.
From the guys getting bombed, its great that something they arent required to man automatically vaporizes a high altitude threat. But for the bomber guy, its massively frustrating. I can endure a whole flock of black puffs telling me I need to make some sort of defensive move (change alt, etc)...but when its the first shot and I've had no chance to protect myself, thats maddening.
I see your point, hope you see mine. Realism and playablity are a tough scale to balance.
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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While i was chased by 5 nme planes i could outclimb them one off them was very close at D600 i managed to get rid off them.
Than i realized i was over nme cv boem knal
i was gone how frustrating (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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I think flack in AH is highly annoying.
But... I'd take annoying AH flack over RL WWII flack any day.
It's *supposed* to piss ya off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) In fact it's supposed to even kill ya the odd time.. Fancy that, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm waiting for the cheerleaders to show up and say: "Stop whining, sink the CV (and/or) bomb the field and the problem is gone!"
(http://www.onlinesports.com/images/sgd-cu013.jpg)
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I could almost understand the flak tracking bombers this easily since they fly a more predictable route, and at a slower speed. It's when they can insta-track diving, twisting fighters - well, it's bloody annoying to know nothing you try will evade them.
As it is, I think I've had better success flying thru flak in a bomber than with a fighter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Cheers
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Not a flame or cheerleading (but nice constructive addition to the thread gatt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
But LePaul, how many sorties over flak have you flown and on those sorties how many times has a single, first flak hit got you.? Everytime....80%...50%...25%? And was it the first flak burst that you saw, or one after many? What I'm trying to get out, is your post above typical of every sortie you have over flak? Or was it your first sortie over flak, or was it one of many sorties over flak, but the first time you got hit like that?
Here's my point. At some point, the flak will hit you. Maybe not on every sortie, maybe on your first sortie.
I have flown many sorties over CV flak and Field Flak and I have been hit on some, killed on some, and made it thru totally un-scathed on some. To me, it seems to equal out.
One thing I did notice. If you are flying in a tight formation over the Flak, the closest guy to the lead gets hit everytime. We spread out now, when over the flak, and it seems to have worked.
Cobra
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 04-12-2001).]
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As someone who flies bombers pretty much exclusively, I find the flak to add some excitement to rather long boring flights.
Wanna tip? On approach to CV's or fields, do not take a straight line of approach. A nice slow turn is usually sufficient enough to keep that first ack burst from hitting you and do not switch to the bomb site until the last minute. I usually am at the bomb site for about 2 to 3 seconds.
Sometimes I take a hit, most of the time I come away unscathed. It takes practice, but that is also fun for me.
It does not take wild manuevers to avoid the ack. Gentle scissors will usually do the job for bombers anyways.
Also, if you can manage to get fighter support, have the fighter fly about 4K lower when at close range to a field and have them go first. The ack will train on the fighter first and give you time to setup and make the run. This tactic works really well.
All I see the ack doing is forcing more cooperation between fighters and bombers to make a mission successful, which adds to the immersion, IMHO.
In all the missions I have flown, in bombers, ack has only gotten me once. I have lost engines, and some other sundry damage, but only one time has it actually killed me.
Quite frankly Cit,..you and that 38 are more of a nuisance to me as a bomber pilot than the ack will ever be. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Take a P51, fly 5 miles near an enemy CV. The first burst gets you everytime if you are straight and level (ie. you don't know its down there till you are dying). It's happened to me several times, watched it happen to TerraC last night, he was 500 yards in front of me, first flak burst killed him. Seems some A/C attract first burst flak than others.
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Originally posted by Cobra: Not a flame or cheerleading (but nice constructive addition to the thread gatt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
Your right Cobra, but what about a nice and simple fix to the weird UFO things ack-ack does? Actually, my squaddies stay away from the CV groups furballs. But sometimes its difficult. Our best pilot canceled his account and we all find this thing very annoying. Obviously, it is only our humble opinion.
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LOL Rip,...The only thing I can accomplish in a fighter plane is to try to starve the enemy of ammo. I am pretty good at that though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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I enjoyed it so much I canceled my account.
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what also is unrealistic that flak is shoooting while their own fighters are in the area.
Flak and Ack should stop shooting when they know this or at least make it as lethal for them.
Getting gamed and lured into flak is very annoying
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Which time Easy?
I liked the flak the way we had it before, but it was causing a massive framerate hit and bringing a lot of people's computers to its knees.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Originally posted by Cobra:
Not a flame or cheerleading (but nice constructive addition to the thread gatt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
But LePaul, how many sorties over flak have you flown and on those sorties how many times has a single, first flak hit got you.? Everytime....80%...50%...25%? And was it the first flak burst that you saw, or one after many? What I'm trying to get out, is your post above typical of every sortie you have over flak? Or was it your first sortie over flak, or was it one of many sorties over flak, but the first time you got hit like that?
Hi Cobra,
In the case of large fields like 12, that have the 88mms, I'd have to say I'm getting flak damage or kills about 75% of the time. No such trouble on the smaller fields since I stay above the aaa range.
I agree with what you say, but as Ripsnort described, one *poof* and you are in the tower. I was pretty far out when this happened to me.
I can't put my finger on it but its a little kooky at best. I can see the acks doing damage and such, but I'm having a pretty high rate of death over those big bases, even if there are other aircrft below or ahead of me.
I see your point, Cobra, I do. But as I mentioned before, there's a fine line between being ultra-realistic and taking it back a notch for playability. Its nice the acks are as deadly as they are, if its your base being egged. But for the bomber guys dying one ping deaths, its keeping a some of them out of the bombers.
Take care.
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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jThe last time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I dont understand all this complaining at all. I have never had a problem in the fleet flak or field flak either one. I have received a ping a time or two but have never witnessed the "ping of death" that everyone claims happens to them all the time. Are you guys sure you arent exaggerating just a little here? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have also found that the more straight and level I fly through CV ack, the less likely it will hit me. Seems that no evasives are the best way to avoid it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sling322
Not a Monitor!
Fat Drunk "Chute Shooting" Bastards
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Originally posted by sling322:
I dont understand all this complaining at all. I have never had a problem in the fleet flak or field flak either one. I have received a ping a time or two but have never witnessed the "ping of death" that everyone claims happens to them all the time. Are you guys sure you arent exaggerating just a little here? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I have also found that the more straight and level I fly through CV ack, the less likely it will hit me. Seems that no evasives are the best way to avoid it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
No exaggerating, Sling. and I've flown both ways...straight and level, or evasives...one puffy poo and I'm in the tower again. Not even a flaming wreckage to look at.
And its not a whine, just a discussion on it.
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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I am not a dedicated buff pilot but I do fly them a fair amount. I have only been killed by flak a couple of times in a bomber. Both were when I was over 20k. I don't like climbing forever (lazy) some most of my bomb runs are about 12 to 14k. I see a lot of flak over large bases, ports and CV's but they seldom hit (lucky, I guess), but one hit is all it takes , though you can survive a few near misses. I agree with Rip, it seems some fighters "attract" flak
more than others. I get killed by flak in P47 more other than any other. AAA near CV's is lethal but watching documentaries it seems fairly realistic. Just my 2 cents.
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I liked the flak the way we had it before, but it was causing a massive framerate hit and bringing a lot of people's computers to its knees.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
the flak was awsome the way it used to be.
you could fly in a random pattern and watch as the flak would explode where you would have been if you didnt change course. it was deadly to anyone flying in a straight line.
it is different now. travel time for the shells has been completely removed. it takes 0 seconds for flak to fire, travel to the target and explode. the ack always explodes within an area of 300 yards from the aircraft no matter how violently the aircraft maneuvers. maneuvering out of the way isn't even an option with this flak code.
it is a grey area similar to night time. if people don't enjoy it they will log off or go where there isn't flak. this is unfortunate because it is detracting from the game in a significant way.
the Flak is repetitive: 5 booms every few seconds near cv's.
the flak is predictable: if you are in range you will be fired at and fired at instantaneously, negating your planes maneuverability.
HTC may not notice it right away. but this flak AI code is hurting Aces High. a game about multiplayer interaction. not ai firing in an unwavering predictable fashion.
some people like the night time, some people may like the current flak ai also. the rest log off or go somewhere else.
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It seems that the ack is behaving very differently with different players / computers.
My presumtion is that the ack is calculated individually on players FE and this is the cause of the anomalies we see. I'd also expect the owners of fast computers to get more accurate ack..
Nobody from HTC has verified my suspicions so far. So is it true? And what can we do about it?
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Yikes LePaul,
You are definately seeing a much higher rate of getting hit by flak than I am. That is weird. Are you in a formation when this happens or solo. The reason I ask, (and this is counter-intuitive, but true) is that I come out better if I'm solo in the Flak. If I'm in formation with 2,3 or 4 others, the Flak will always get at least 1 or 2 of them, and will hit them square.
I'm with Pyro and Cit...the flak the way it was before was great! Much better than we have now.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Cobra:
Yikes LePaul,
You are definately seeing a much higher rate of getting hit by flak than I am. That is weird. Are you in a formation when this happens or solo. The reason I ask, (and this is counter-intuitive, but true) is that I come out better if I'm solo in the Flak. If I'm in formation with 2,3 or 4 others, the Flak will always get at least 1 or 2 of them, and will hit them square.
I'm with Pyro and Cit...the flak the way it was before was great! Much better than we have now.
Cobra
Hi again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm usually flying solo...come on! I'm flying Knights...escort? Cooperation? LOL...Hey, If I could talk Ripsnort into flying that high with me! <jab jab..jest!>
I don't recall what the prior ack setup was. I'd sure like to try it that way, because at least there is a method to the madness, so to speak, which gives us poor bomber fools a fighting chance. (Speaking of prior, Pyro, how about the craters inflicting damage coming back as it was in a prior build? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Someone asked if computer speed made a difference....for what its worth, Im a Pentium II 450, 256mb ram & 3DFX Voodoo 3 3000. I'm not super fast, more like in the middle by today's standards.
BTW: Nice to see a civil discussion!
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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With no changes to my connection or computer during the last 6 tours, I have yet to be killed by fleet ack this month. Previous months in the island terrain I've suffered many deaths including some first-burst deaths. I realized that I'm flying differently this tour. As soon as flak appears around my airplane, I move out of range or drop below the floor of the flak bursts. For a single bomber flying straight and level over a fleet, I think that the AI flak has too little effect. Thats a big target . However, I've lost a lot more fighters while maneuvering to AI ack than bombers where I was flying a steady course at a constant altitude.
Realize the reason that anti aircraft fire exists. Its sole purpose is act as a defense around a high value target and make an attacker's job as difficult as possible trying to get to that target. If its effectiveness is reduced to that of mere eye candy why have it at all? A single fighter already has the ability to attack and sink a carrier instantly with relative impunity despite the current AI ack design.
I don't believe relying only on human gunners is the answer in a flight sim. Who wants to be forced to sit in a ship when you want to fly? A fleet or HQ with no gunners would have absolutely no protection above the zip gun effectiveness ceiling - very much like most of the airfields. Does anyone think a single bomber could fly over an enemy airbase in WW2 at 8000' in broad daylight with absolutely no risk of being hit by base defenses? We see this all the time and if fleet defenses were as ineffective above 7,500' as base defense, we'd see a lot more. Often there aren't even enough pilots to fly an intercept much less take someone out of a pilot's seat and put them behind a gun. "Country airplane availability quota reached, would you like to sit in a gun turret?" Nope.
I agree that changes would add to the percieved realism of the AI flak, but not by making it less effective per se or eliminating it.
MiG
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 04-12-2001).]
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This is For Pyro. I really loved the way the flak was too. Then you flew over the enemy cv it looked just like a war film. You should change it back and make all these guys playing aces on Pentium 100mhz upgrade (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On a more serious note though, I would like to see a few more graphics options for us guys with fast computers. RIght now aces is pegged at 75 fps at all times for me (75hz is my monitor refresh rate). I was really happy when you guys added the higher polygon terrain option, (shift f1 i think it is) and i would like to see more options like that. Perhaps higher polygon plane models or canopy reflections would be cool. Right now I have the second fastest computer in aces (according to the aces high benchmark page http://www.grandeavenida.com/fps/framerate.cfm?Game=2 (http://www.grandeavenida.com/fps/framerate.cfm?Game=2) ) and want to utilize its power (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok now i need to hide , as the guys wth the slow computers flame me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. I think adding force feedback support is awesome. I may have to get one now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have about a 70% success rate when trying to get all of a P-47's ordinance to hit a CV.
As bad as the flak/ack is, its nowhere near what it was in real life. For every story someone has about dying from one ping, I've seen 10 that just fly through it for several minutes. I've seen too many bombers hover over 88mm protected feilds to think these are ruining the game for everyone.
BTW.. there's a damn good reason most fighters stopped escorting bombers over a flak protected target and met them on the other side.
Flak will kill you. There is some randomness to it. Get over it. Simply flying there does not entitle you to anything.
AKDejaVu