Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wulfmen on April 12, 2001, 06:39:00 PM
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This Guns from American Buffs are very unrealistic. This toejam MG´s.
Thats not fun, to get killed from 1K range.
This Game is fun but this fu... sh... is not the best.
Is this a bug or Lousy Settings from the Staff???????????
This thinks makes this Game bad
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simple solution....dont engage buffs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by XNachoX (edited 04-12-2001).]
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Better solution...
Engage buffs using realistic tactics. Fast slashing attacks and not from their straight 6. If you arent fast or arent higher than the buff, trying to attack straight from behind is a sure kill....for the buff pilot.
This isnt EAW.
-Ding
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Dingy, the last time I tried using realistic tactics was when I shot through two B17s in a G10 at 500+ mph from high 10. Before I could roll to low 2, I had four pings nad lost half my plane.
It used to be you'd see people attacking buffs (and as a pilot, I'd see them) in historically successful manners (dead 6 is an historically accurate approach, btw), but lately anyone smart enough to do that also knows of its futility, and just stays away.
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Dingy has a point, I love those guys who come straight in while I am a Buff, heck I will even slow down so they can close a little faster,than BOOM their dead.
On the other hand I set and wait to die while I see some guy spending his time to set up to make a good run on me, Just like last night, I was all alone up high in my lanc. a lone 109 appears 10 min's later I was dead, the 109 was hit but no discernable damage who was this hunter of Buff's why dzd of course, he is way good <S> dzd, he knows how to kill a buff, and their are lots of others like him, leave the buff guns alone.
If u use your head u can kill them with relative impunity, the same goes for ostys.
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 04-12-2001).]
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Buff guns are modeled just right!!
Buffs are tough to kill for most people,myself included. But as a guy that flys bombers a lot, there are people out there that seem to kill me pretty easily. Could they be the Aces in Aces High?
Olgzr
[This message has been edited by Olgzr3 (edited 04-12-2001).]
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At least your fighting a real human....not some code.
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As has been stated several times before, most of the time you cannot set up a proper attack because the bomber is continually turning. As soon as your in position, they turn their 6 to you. With AH's pinpoint bombing and instant Norden, there is no need to maintain a course for any length of time as in RL.
Also, can anybody dispute the poster's claim that buff guns kill at a MUCH greater distance then a fighter's?
I know the few times I've buffed, the most exciting times were when I was gunning. Wouldn't it be pretty boring if nobody attacked because of gameplay issues? That seems to be the way it's headed.
bowser
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The Norden is the biggest difference. On WB, bombing was much more difficult. Once you lined up, you really couldn't be yankin' and bankin' around...
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It is very unlikely that buff guns will be changed? Why? Because they were MUCH less lethal, and result was hurting for the gameplay. Flying under 30k in buff was a clear suicide.
Yes, it was more realistic. Lone buff has little chance to survive against lone fighter. But it was borring.
Well, I was one of those who was against change in guns strength, when it happened. Now I see that it was very wise decision, which balanced game.
And killing buffs is not difficult, if you will learn how to do it. Check top fighter pilots stats to see, that they killed many time more buffs than were killed by buffs.
Fariz
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Engage buffs using realistic tactics
As dinger stated, dead 6 was very often used by LW and it worked well, didn't loose many planes too it.
Sturmgruppe (190 A8/R8 equiped with 2x20mm and 2x30mm) moved in in a close V formation form dead 6 without avoiding the enemy buff fire. They didn't loose 1 or 2 planes TOP and sometimes tehy didn't loose any at all.
When they were at 100-200 yards they opened up with fire (each 190 had different buffs, not 2x190's on 1xbuff). With the kind of armement it was clear kill to the 190.
These attacks were hard to perform cause of Allied Fighters so the 190's had to have cover, usualy by 109's.
Try this in AH, let's say 9x190 A8's moving in slow behind 9 B17 (190's were of course much more outnumbered in R/L) and ALL 190's will be dead before they can even reach a distance of 200 yards.
When it comes to other, safer R/L attacks, they don't allways work either.
Last night I came in on a B17 from 2 OC, hit him with 3x30mm but lost most of my plane, my speed was over 450Mph.
Another well used, good but difficult attack was the Head on (12 OC) attack.
It gave the pilots only a few seconds to aim, fire and avoid a colission.
The fighters came in from 12 OC in at an angle of 10 degrees above the Bomber, aimed for the cockpit.
Have tried this in AH too, you often get shot down.
Much of this is because of the icons but much of it is because the Buff guns are WAY overmodelled.
Like someone said in the MA a while ago "I'm gonna love to see the Me262 get shot down in a HO attack on a B17".
Now, how realistic is that?
I have notes written by Sturmgruppe pilots if you want a confirmation of what I have said, just ask me to post it.
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer
[This message has been edited by Wilbus (edited 04-12-2001).]
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Rendering realistic mounted MG would really change this game far too much, developers should add wind, because wind has much more impact on them that on fighters. And moreover you should add fear. Yes, when you see a bunch of Fw-190 coming after your 17, you are not as cool-minded as when you are in your seat, carefully watching the distance decrease and waiting for the best moment to open fire. We could also add the fact that crew is in a big leather coat, making moves more difficult.
IMHO, this is perfect for the moment. Both the fighter and the bomber have a chance to survive.
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[This message has been edited by Hokum79 (edited 04-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dinger:
Dingy, the last time I tried using realistic tactics was when I shot through two B17s in a G10 at 500+ mph from high 10. Before I could roll to low 2, I had four pings nad lost half my plane.
It used to be you'd see people attacking buffs (and as a pilot, I'd see them) in historically successful manners (dead 6 is an historically accurate approach, btw), but lately anyone smart enough to do that also knows of its futility, and just stays away.
Buffs arent too be taken lightly. But I've taken plenty of Lancs and B17s down with the p51 and when I have the ability to set up a good approach, Ive killed lots more than have killed me. The only time Ive died is when I get impatient or engage a strato buff at 30K+ which doesnt give me the leeway to set up a good shot.
Good shooting helps too if you are able to concentrate your shots on a wing.
-Ding
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I find myself agreeing with both sides when it comes to bomber guns. On the one hand, I do enjoy flying bombers. On the other hand, they can be a real pain to kill.
When I'm in a b26 I usually feel reasonably sure that I will kill at least 2 fighters before I'm shot down. To me this is probably too easy.
When I'm attacking a bomber if I have the time to set up an attack properly, knowing before hand that I'm intercepting a bomber, I can usually shoot them down without a problem. On the other hand though, if I just try attacking a bomber in a f4u1d (no cannons) it's basically useless. A tbm or ju88 are pretty easy to kill, I'll attack them in any fighter. A b17 or b26 can be tricky. A lancaster can absorb nearly all the bullets in the f4u1d's clip and only lose an engine or two.
What I'd like to see is this:
1. Add gun vibration effect for bomber gunners. (Non turreted guns should have a greater shake to them.)
2. Reduce the number of tracer rounds fired. (This would make deflection shots harder, but not affect the ability to kill fighters making "stupid" attacks.)
I wouldn't change anything else.
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bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
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Just bust down the lethality to fighter levels, and make sure the bullet radius is realistic. You'll find that stupidity is still rewarded with death, but that slashing attacks actually work.
Honestly, I like flying buffs too -- nothing's better than a 6-kill sortie in a b26; but this is ridiculous.
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8 times out of 10 the buff you can kill is the buff who never saw you. The gunner whos waiting for you has great chances to kill you thank to 0.50 special lethality, convergence and range. Dinger is talking about bullet radius, hmmm maybe thats why you cant evade otto burst even if you manoeuver. Every dedicated buff hunter can say it. Everything else is a nice bla-bla about historical attacks. Take a look at those VHS about Luftwaffe attacks. Without escort they were almost always dead meat. Here you dont need escort at all. Here, sometimes is the escort who run near buffs, some weeks ago I shot down a dweeb Pony who did it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Slashing attacks work with average-below average gunners. Good gunners will always show you their arses and you'll have lil chances againts them. Our Norden is a joke so they can pinpoint bomb with a little or no correction.
They are flying Osties, they are modeled this way only to allow more players to play, so dont talk about realism, do us a favour. So, the only thing you can do is to leave them play alone, sometimes. I for one cannot resist and get shot down a lot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It's not just the 0.50 in guns, the 303s and the 7.9 mm guns are boosted too.
"This thinks makes this Game bad"
Yes it does. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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You allied bomber pilot whiners.
Fly the JU88, then you'll appreciate your bombers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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When I host h2h, I usually disable ground damage so the buffs can fly around as much as they like without any harm... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If they are let alone, they will bomb the field and spoil the fun for the rest (in many cases h2h arenas have only 2 fields.)
If they are attacked, they will shoot down the attacker very easily. Not to mention all those aerobatics which IMO were not possible with the real bombers. I've made fast slashing attacks on b26.. They respond by acm, because of speed my fighter has no chance to match the turn radius.. Then they instantly switch to gunner and shoot me down.
I can easily shoot down 5-10 fighters on a good day.. If I manage to kill even 1 buff without dying myself too, I consider myself very lucky. That should tell something about their leathality.
If I had to choose attacking a buff from similar altitude or being bounced by 3 enemy fighters, I'd choose the enemy fighters. That way I'd have even some chance to live (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Again it's the bombers aren't right because I keep getting killed wine. You want some cheese with that. It seems if I do something other than fly stright and leveal and let the fighter guys shoot me down without doing something, there's something wrong. I don't know where these super bombers are, but I sure would like to get one of those. I keep getting shot down all the time. Once in awhile, I get lucky and shot down my attacker. but mostly I die. Maybe the fighters are over modeled and not realistic. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh, I do fly the JU88. I have both in WB and here. And you can do some real damage with it. But it is weak on it's defenive guns. But I like it anyways.
fireball
457th Bomb Group (H)
[This message has been edited by firbal (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Youins jest don understan.As there are less and less buffs in pct.of fighter planes,the lethality increases accordingly.50-50 split, all guns the same, 10% buffs and 90% fighters,buff guns get much more lethal.Some day there will be only 1 buff flying and his guns will kill every one in 25 mile radius.There will be many posts about buff guns on that day.Aw shucks,I can't wait.
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Fly the JU88, then you'll appreciate your bombers
HAHAHA! "Ar-234"
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I just don't understand why buff drivers want the aircraft set up as they are now...
I suppose you could argue that this setup seems to simulate the leathality that a box of buffs could generate with crossfire - but why not just have a little team cooperation that would require a flight of buffs and escorts - or would that be too realistic?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
The Norden is the biggest difference. On WB, bombing was much more difficult. Once you lined up, you really couldn't be yankin' and bankin' around...
Actually with practice and a touch of experience you could haul the Warbrids bombers around and be just as accurate as you can in Aces High. Sometimes it meant you had to do some odd things to 'trick' the bombsight code into doing what you wanted but it could be done.
I used to fly bombers almost all the time in Warbirds so this isn't just speculation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
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I've made and I continue to make stupid attacks on buffs. I die, accept it as the reward for my stupidity, and continue.
I've flown my share of buffs, and I thoroughly enjoy shooting down interceptors. I also refuse to fly straight and level when engaged. I am going to use every resource at my disposal, and I don't see anything wrong with that. And Firbal, I hear you: ultimately the same thing is going to be true unless you have "Afrika" buff gun settings: if the fighter pilot wants to commit suicide and flies up the bomber's six, the bomber will go down.
I've flown against buffs using supposedly "smart" tactics, and discovered that it's just not worth the bother. Sure, I accept that any time you fly at a .50 cal, you run the risk of dying. But as Gatt said, if the guy sees me, it's every time. And it's not simply a matter of getting the pilot killed. It's the whole wing root detaching after 4 .50 cal rounds hit the plane. Hell, they couldn't even reproduce that in static tests!
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Originally posted by Wulfmen:
This Guns from American Buffs are very unrealistic. This toejam MG´s.
Thats not fun, to get killed from 1K range.
This Game is fun but this fu... sh... is not the best.
Is this a bug or Lousy Settings from the Staff???????????
This thinks makes this Game bad
I think it is a lousy attitude from you.
Your diplomatic skills are rather childish.
ATC
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True.. the buff guns are much more lethal here than in RL but it balances game play, which is good.
In RL a lone buff was easy pickins..
that's why they flew in tight formations...
'wall of lead' approach.
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learn tactics i shot down 3 2 dats ago by myself and they were in a formation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ya just need to learn haw to do it lisen to your fellow pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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DRILL
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Just for laughs, the tu quoque part of the debate.
From tour 14:
pilot vs. B17G/B26B/Ju88/Lanc III
Kills/Killed by
Drill : 35/25
Dingy: 11/12
Dinger: 19/10
Gat: 100/28
Wilbuz: 51/14
FunkedUp: 16/3
The fellow pilots who seem to be better at shooting down buffs tell you not to do it.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Fact: Pyro has stated several times that the only thing enhanced about the guns on the buffs is their range. They are effective out to d1.4, I believe. That's it. No added *oomph*, nothing else. Yes, the guns are all chained together, but you still need to man them with a humanoid to use them.
This artificial enhancement of the range of buff guns is a good compromise to give the buff drivers a fair chance at fighting back. It is another of those "gameplay" decisions, that works as intended.
If you guys continue to belly ache about the buff guns and somehow convince HTC to tune them down, you're going to eliminate the buff driver from the game. Outside of Lazs, does anyone really want to see Buffs disappear from the skies of AH?
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I have roughly a 2.7 to 1 K/D ratio against bombers, and I can tell you all the times I died its because I:
A> Made the wrong type of approach when killing it.
B> Threw patience out the door and stayed on the 'line of site' too long.
C> didn't jinx, roll enough coming in.
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You also usually have more than 1 with you, no Rip?
I hate to climb on the whining bandwagon, but I have been hit passing directly over the bomber for a front attack at 3000 feet higher alt. I've joined the don't bother group for the most part, except HQ raids, which I'll go ahead and just do a suicide run guns blazing, figuring I'll take enough out of him and die and can go back to easier targets (fighters).
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banana, actually Pyro did not state that. What he did state is that buff guns do not have the same dispersion fighters do. This equates to a longer effective range, and much higher damage at any range - all guns are hitting at convergence anywhere from 50 yards to 1500 yards.
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Fatty, when I get buffs, I'm usually alone.
With MAG_33 or squadron ops, we primarily do ATG stuff, rarely fighter sweeps, and we're usually too busy to go after buffs...
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banana - I don't think buffs will disappear at all if the gun range/effectiveness is normalized. What I think you will see is more cooperative gameplay with buffs in formations working cooperatively with escorts.
TBone
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That is all tactics, if using right tactics even buffs has little chance to sirvive even with uber .50.
My stats against buffs this tour:
B-17G 4-0
B-26B 6-1
Lanc 1-0
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11-1
Ju-88 4-1
TBM-3 9-0
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10-1
Total: 21-2
And most of these kills were in Yak-9u, which is not a buff hunter. Also my lag gives any buff almost one second more time to hit me after I get it.
I really think that killing buffs is not so tough, as many used to think.
Fariz
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"At least your fighting a real human....not some code"
Wrong. You're fighting a real human that has "the code" working for him. Buff guns ARE boosted for gameplay reasons.
Increase buff gun range due to lag? Ok, I can live with that. Increase their hitting power by an order of a magnitude (be it bullet damage increased or by having all guns, including those that shouldnt be able to bear on you hit you at perfect convergence at any range)? Incredibly idiotic. THIS is what has to be fixed.
Some planes also have bugs in their damage sustained thing. Hit a zeke at point blank range with a toejamload of 4 .50's and 1 20mm cannon and it becomes a fireball... that can still turn, fight, etc as if nothing happened for the next 10 minutes. A P-38 receives 1 ping from anything bigger than a .50 cal and it loses a wing or tail.
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Originally posted by Ozark:
At least your fighting a real human....not some code.
thats why poeple love this game!!!!!!!
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jato.JPG)
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To kill a buff.
Fly a G10 with 30mm ammo. It makes climbing above them less of a chore and of course You always attack B26's from the belly (no guns). the G10 climb rate makes this easier.
B17's. You get above. never attack at less then 400 ias. Aim for a wing, not the fuselage. Use combat trim to steady your aim. Use a gentle scissors on approach. And remember anything shooting at your face is an H O. Net lag will effect what happens.
I have never been able to kill more than 7 buff"s in a single sortie, so I'm not an expert. But this system works well.
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easymo, that works until the buff turns on a dime and presents you with its 6 when you are diving on it at 400mph.
I'll keep saying it, there is no tactic that works against buffs because of their turbolasers. You only kill buffs because the gunner is either not watching you or has a lousy aim.. and even then you are at high risk. Oh, did I mention buffs turn like a zeke? Oh yeah, I did..
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Leave em alone and let them bomb is my motto. Its hard sometimes not to try to kill them. Its kinda like quitting smoking. You just gotta try one every now and then. But I mainly leave them alone. The guns are just to deadly to mess with.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
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So far this tour
B17 kills 1592 killed 2064
B26 kills 1198 killed 1645
Lan kills 878 killed 1634
Ju88kills 300 killed 1101
Total 3968 6444
By all means,soften the buff guns,they are much too hard to kill.The figures should read 100 kills to 52,398 killed.
And as far as getting 10 buffs together for a bomb run,hehehehehehe.
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Killing buffs is a challenge, and it's fun.
SOB
P.S. Fatty is a whiner!
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point of information: there is a separate lethality setting for manned guns, such as those on bombers.
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S!
Buffs are tough ones to kill and need patience to get.My stats on them so far are..
Lancaster 13/2
B17G 9/1
B26B 1/1
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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ripsnort said it all earlier...
so ill say no more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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they are boring and unrealistic to kill. If you let them go they will have an unrealistic affect on the game and make it boring. And that's all there is too it for a lot of folks.
lazs
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OK Lazs, lessee if I understand this.
Endless respawning and furballing till they fall off is super realistic and has realistic effects on the game while uber guns on the bombers and bombing all the fighter hangers on the map from 57,0000 feet is not and has not, right?
Ya convinced me, I will not shoot at guys on my six and I will only bomb bomber hangers from 3K to atone for the super bombsight and to prevent those bomber jerks from ruining your realistic experience.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Buff guns suck if I am against them.
Buff guns suck if I am manning them.
Get the point? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think there is a balance. Buffs have a chance if they get alt, and that is the caveat. Used to be that alt was 25-35k. Now that alt is 15-25K. Which would you prefer to see?
I want bombers in the game. I want them to have a chance against me if I strike it alone ('cause they don't have a prayer in hell in a coordinated attack). Decrease lethality=no buffs. There is not much left of strat if you take that away. And let's not argue whether this part is real or that part is real, because reality is only the backdrop of this "game".
It's a simple formula for me: more targets are good, no matter what they are. Heck, if you really want to complain about something, discuss the lethality of the Osti! Some guys can kill you beyond visual range now...
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Ok, do people really want realism for the sake of realism?
Do we really want also the boring / bad parts of the airwar or just the entertaining part?
I doubt people would pay $30/month for a game that forces you to make regular patrol flights without finding anything worth mentioning. Nevertheless that would be realism.. Is that what people want?
IMO people want combat action with the appearance of realism. The realism should lie in the way the landscape and planes are portrayed. How the events match the historic counterparts, how the planes fly etc.
Most people play this game because they want to relive the excitement they once had reading ww2 comics or books when they were kids.. Back then this kind of simulation was just a fantasy beyond their dreams. Now it's a reality, yet its damaged by ill-behaving players (maybe the kids who missed all that reading..) It's also damaged by the fact that a part of the community wants the gameplay to be different than the other part.
The compromise of the two would be an arena with less distance so that the fights would intensify, combination of strat and furball..
That way both kind of players would be able to have what they want. I believe the map distances were expanded because of GV:s and the vulching problem.. In reality GV:s would never be able to sit on an airfield, a couple bazooka-guys would take care of them fast. The addition of ground war has then taken away the furballs.
But that's of course just my O.
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Thank you Sunchaser. Now if we can just convince the other 200 idiots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Edit: Forgot smiley.
bowser
[This message has been edited by bowser (edited 04-14-2001).]
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Historical attacks work fine. Far from flying around in my buff with impunity I get quite anxious when I see a fighter on my tail especially if I see him setting up a sensible attack on me because I know my pop guns will only slightly damage if at all before I take small damage and bits fly off my aircraft. Of course if he's the mindless furball type attacker he'll sit dead six and slow down so he can sit there and ping away at me and then shakes his fist in temper and splits his nappy as he eats lead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I've yet to see a buff in ANY online sim take the kind of damage we see in archived photos of bombers and probably never will because like it or not you might think buffs get all the concessions but you'd be wrong.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record I'd like to see a little accuracy taken out o the norden, perhaps a little settling time ala Warbirds but would also like to see more target rich airfields so us buffs can carpet bomb in a histroical manner. Perhaps lines of parked planes on the grass between runways that need to be killed along with the hangars to disable a particular aircraft.
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Buff guns are great! I've been flying the Ju88 A2A a good deal lately. This TOD, if you exclude my ostwind engagements, I'm 16 and 12 in the Ju88, and 5 and 1 in the lancaster. Yesterday I had a Ju88 sortie where I knocked down 2 P51s, a Cannon-Hawg and a Destroyer. One of the P51 pilots got so pissed, he then ran me down on the deck, and stayed back there till I was dead, receiving a lethal amount of damage in the process. So that's one plane taking out 4 enemies interceptors and a ship. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Buff guns suck when you attack them, and suck when you defend with them. I'm saying Buff guns suck when you attack them and blow the crap out of the enemy when you defend with them. It's about changing the lethality setting, and currently it's way too high.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-14-2001).]
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sunchaser.. no, u don't get it it works like this.. they are boring and unrealistic to kill. If you let them go they will have an unrealistic
affect on the game and make it boring. And that's all there is too it for a lot of folks.
one of the main reasons this is true is not so much the fault of the bombers having all the concessions that make em unrealistic but a gameplay or strat issue. The suicide bomber can allways make it to fields and easily kill the roofs of a few buildings affecting only fighters. If he doesnt't make it the first time he can respawn and try it a couple more times. A fighter can kill one with a realistic attack (maybe) even tho the guns on the buffs are so concession ridden but who has time for that kind of attack?
If buffs had more realistic targets then they could have more realistic bomb damage and people could have the time to make realistic attacks on em (buff guns wouldn't be quite so controversial) and there would not be the animosity for them that there is right now but... If your only idea of having fun is spoiling it for another group then you will just have to put up with the animosity.
lazs
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And what about the concessions to the fighter weenies who only seem to need to pump the same ord into a buff that they do to a fighter before it goes down? what about the concessions made that allow you to spawn right in the middle of the fighting zone? the concessions made that only see a fghter hangar down for a pathetic 15 mins?
A buff mission takes me around an hour to play, fly to altitude (around 23-28k) in a rear positioned field then fly to the field I'm attacking drop my ord then fly home. I've been shot down plenty by players using a sensible approach to attacking me and I've alsodowned a few dweebs who think they should be able to sit on my six slow and steady and shoot me.
Laz posted:
A fighter can kill one with a realistic attack (maybe) even tho the guns on the buffs are so concession ridden but who has time for that kind of attack?
No maybe about it Lazs they do work. The majority of players here will use a sensible attack on a buff, don't acuse others of forcing their way of play on you when the way the game is played right now is the same right across the board in other sims...I suppose they are all wrong too Lazs? Its you that wants to force this ridiculous arcade game of playing on the majority. You have the duelling arena and you don't use it yet its setup for your desired way of playing the numbers speak volumes, the duelling arena is empty because the majority play the game as intended and not some stupid arcade weenie arena. There might be a vocal minority here in the forum but when it comes down to the nitty gritty the favoured way of playing this sim is quite clearly shown by the numbers using the MA over the duelling arena.
Quit the whining and play LAzs, go fly the duelling arena as its clear the MA makes you unhappy, while you're at it fit a coin slot to your computer to make you feel more at home.
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Hey Bowser no need for smileys, I got it.
Lazs get another soapbox, you have totally worn out the one you are standing on.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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rev and sun... I don't blame you for not facing facts it must be painful with your current thinking. Look... the fighters are ultra realistic compared to the bombers. Loadout? LOL, put a couple hundred rounds of any type of loadout into a real buff and it will be ded or crewless. fighter respawn? How many fighters should a field have? right now it's either an endless amount or none.
Think a little... it could be improved for everyone. If all you want to do is limit fighter availability tho then you will continue to get this animosity so quit acting so offended. If you "force" fighters to attack you then of courss they are going to piss and moan about your bogus 1 man bomber crew with souped up guns.
The way things are setup now the only people who like bombers are those who fly em and yes, every other sim is just the same way with the same results. The most you will get out of the fighter guys is "but i don't want to see bombers eliminated from the game" while at the same time squeaking about em.
lazs
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Guns are Ok. Turn ability is not, especially full loaded. Solutions:
a) Norden Sight: improve realistic behaviour.
b) Decrease pinpoint accuracy over 20k
c) BIG Increase in hvy bombs' blast radius.
d) BIG Increase in damage inflicted to the ground. I.E. Big craters, and for a longer time.
As it is now, the buff work itself pales against the ackstar role. I'd like to use the map as a navigation tool, and set up the bomb run in a proper way. I'd like to have the big bombers using more the raw destructive power of 1000lbers and beyond, instead of the pinpoint accuracy of the current bombsight. I'd like to be able to damage the runway and the grass surrounding, and hampering operations for a nice amount of time....
When I am in a fighter, and I approach a buff near IP, I want to know that he will be on a stable course, or he will ruin his attack if he choses to break turn.
So, all in all, Buff-Guns is not the most relevant issue when Buff-Job is debating. Make Buff a valuable Bomb platform, instead of a marvelous flying ack one.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Bring on the B-29!!!!!!!!!!
Let me go get my Flame Proof suit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The purpose of the buffs is to destroy ground targets, not to "erase" enemy fighters one by one. Once a 20k buff is detected by radar, you have no time to get to 20k and intercept it before the buff releases. 90% of buff strikes are done by surprise against undefended bases (no time to react prior to the drop) or against bases were the buffs have friendly CAP. In any case, buffs have a good chance to be success on their missions.
If buffs are headed alone against defended bases with no friendly CAP, they should be shootdown with minimal risk, I see no gameplay issue about that. If buffs are headed against undefended bases and the enemy reacts and try to intercept, no problem for the gameplay, the buff will be killed once most of its targets are destroyed.
And now, thinking about gameplay. Now you see one buff player happy, four interceptor players frustrated, and dozen players login out because most of their bases near a HOT point are closed and haven't 15 mins to fly from a farther base.
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Yes buff guns are unrealistic, but perhaps they should be as stated many times in these "I attacked a buff and he shot me down"-posts. I did a test and I upped a B26 (for the very first time) and after dropped all my bombs I attacked 3 lower enemy fighters (109,P51,P38), I shot them all down with my backward guns... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
And when thinking about attacking them with fighter with my "skills", I'd as good as dead.
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Its not myself and Sun living in some warped fantasy world Lazs, its you that wants to force YOUR way onto everyone else. I have yet to see ANYONE in the MA moan about a bomber taking out FH's and spoiling the fight.
The fact still remains that you have a duelling arena for furballing and nobody uses it..why you may ask? because there is a very small minority group that will play YOUR way and play Aces High as some kind of childish arcade game.
Lazs posted:
continue to get this animosity
You keep propogatig this feeling of animosity towards buffs and again I have not seen this online and only a small minority display such feelings in the forums, usually the same guys like you or Apache who just can't understand this is a simulation of WW2 combat and not some kiddie arcade game.
The buff damage model IMO takes far too little hits before vital parts are destroyed, it was the same deal in Warbirds its just a concession to the quakers who want to sit on a buffs six and blast away with impunity.
Lazs posted:
The way things are setup now the only people who like bombers are those who fly em and yes, every other sim is just the same way with the same results. The most you will get out of the fighter guys is "but i don't want to see bombers eliminated from the game" while at the same time squeaking about em.
Why don't you quit putting words into other peoples mouths when this fetish for arcadness is your own ideas of how Aces High should run. The MA format is the same as any other and it works so how many thousands are you going to say are wrong becuase of course your singular view on this topic is oh so right.
Pepe> yes realistic bomb damage is the key but then that would upset Lazs even more when a group of buffs carpet bomb a field in a historically realistic fashion and destroy just about everything in sight and crater the runway so fighters cannot take off but thats of course if they rid Aces High of another fighter concession of being able to trundle across rough grass unhindered with no damage to the undercarriage.
Mandoble posted:
The purpose of the buffs is to destroy ground targets, not to "erase" enemy fighters one by one
The fighter hangars are a legitimate target and the fact that the game is concession rid to allow fighters to endlessly spawn from them and that another concession to fighters sees them down for a ridiculous 15 mins (hmm yes thats historical) then hittign the fighter hangars has been forced on the bombers to be a very important target to hit or they face certain destruction by wave upon wave of concession ridden fighter jocks slipping another quarter into the arcade machine.
Once a 20k buff is detected by radar, you have no time to get to 20k and intercept it before the buff releases
Rubbish absolute rubbish, combined with the over accurate radar we have in the arena added to another concession to fighters to have inflight AWACS and neon icons this is not the case, if you're all too busy furballing at 2k to bother checking the radar then you will miss the buffs flying overhead. This is supposed to be a WW2 combat sim, that includes buffs as well as fighters all that is needed is one or two fighters to fly recon to stop buffs surprising you. This of course again is a historical tactic employed by fighter command but again you arcade gamers want to force something different upon us.
You have a duelling arena so why not go use it instead of whining and trying to force your arcade gaming upon the rest of us, the numbers speak volumes and the majority prefer to play in a more realistic enviroment.
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rev... read what mandoble wrote it is the sentiment that i hear the most and it is an indesputable truth. One attention starved no talent can spoil the fun for a lot of guys. I can only speak for myself but everyone in my squad and everyone I have ever talked to feels the same about how easy and unfun it is for a buff to take the roof off a couple buildings with laser guided bombs and ruin the fun of maybe dozens of guys. I understand that you want to get attention but the price to the other players is too high... the balance is off. I claim that there can be ways to give bombers something meanigful to do without it being so easy to spoil everyone elses fun. I claim that bombers can be made more realistic and fun at the same time... tho.... gawd knows I would never fly one.
As for the 'dueling arena'.... who said they wanted to duel? Certainly not me. In fact... if you had bothered to read anything I have ever wrote instead of just "putting words in my mouth" you would know that I have stated numerous times that multiple arenas don't work. people go where the numbers are. Maybe that will change when numbers approch 300-500 players but so far...
lazs
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I can only speak for myself but everyone in my squad and everyone I have ever talked to feels the same
Now it is you putting words into peoples mouths, where are these people Lazs you imply its hundreds of people feel the same so where are they? Why is it that every online sim follows the same format with a few minor differences that bear nothin on this topic and yet nobody else whines about buffs spoiling the fun for furballers? Lets just cut to the chase Lazs this is yours and a very small minority view, a view you wish to push onto everyone in the arena. This has nothing to do with seeking attention, if I wanted attention I'd jump into a fighter and launch myself at the nearest furball and kill something so everyone could see my name in the buffer...ring any bells? yes thats exactly the behaviour YOU display so tell me Lazs who craves attention? the mindless furballer hell bent on getting his name on the buffer or the buff pilot who quietly goes about his business?
As for the 'dueling arena'.... who said they wanted to duel? Certainly not me
So lets look at the kind of arena you want...fly from your airfield, find a fighter, fight and win or lose...sounds like a duel to me except you have a choice of foes. So how am I putting words into your mouth?
Lazs you want an arena format that the majority do not want so another arena was setup for players like you so you can pump quarters into your PC all night and pretend you're down the local arcade. Another arena HAD to be setup because if HTC made the changes you ask for there would be a serious flow of customers to other sims. The numbers are there right now enough players to populate the MA in a realistic way and for those of you that like to mindlessly furball to have your own arena but nobody uses it because the MA format is the format the majority want, a format that the majority of ALL the online sim communities want.
That soapbox is looking rahter tattered now Lazs, time to retire it and find another one.
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Well, I think lazs is upset from the very moment he hears the word strat... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) Kinda enters [Combat Mode ON] when anything like that is brought about (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
On the damage side, I think that more realistic bomb damage would not hurt the game. As for the destruction of the airbase itself, If you want pinpoint accuracy, get jabos. If you go the destructive way, then use Buffs, and the whole airfield is destroyed. Runways, ammo depots, hangars, etc. What means, no sneaky landing Goon, just traditional 1k drop (or M3 for terrestrial capture), and lot of time to recover, with limited ammo, fuel, etc. supply.
Mandoble just raised again what I think is the other major gameplay concession that is badly implemented. Radar. I know it's a dead horse, and it's beaten a zillion times, but counter bars are the worst possible solution in search of a problem. Ruins NOE missions, and adds nothing to gameplay. If you want to know where the fight is, the dot radar or a question on ch2 is fair enough to find a quick fight. Put counterbars as some kind of long range radar, simulating ground reports, etc. seems OK for me, but the current status is laughable, and, in fact, harms gameplay as denies, or, at the very least, severely hampers, tactics used in real life, thus restricting game possibilities, instead of widening them.
Adding salt to the wound, this game feature put a heavy burden on the losing side (even more true when a country is gangbanged, or restricted to few bases), that can not use surprise as a mean of defense, without adding sensible benefits.
I know these two things are down below Htc.'s priority list, and I am not quitting because of them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)....all in all, I consider AH the best on-line sim as of today. But, as a personal opinion, would improve immensely with just these two issues solved:
* Bomb damage model/Bomber Sight
* Radar settings
Nothing original, several million times written on this BBS, just hoping my 0.02 after 0.02 would make me millionaire someday (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pepe
[Edit Note]: I exchange Creative Crashing lessons for English ones. I can tell myself an "experten" in this particular side of the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Pepe (edited 04-17-2001).]
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rev... not "hundreds" of players just everyone I talk to and most of them are in my squad. Let's put it a different way... I have never talked to anyone who thought the way fighter availability is limited is working well or that the bombers are realistic compared to the fighters.
Every sim has field closure it's just that some do it better... less gimicky.. More fun for the majority. You want to make it an "either or" thing... either we have it just as it is or we have a dueling arena. No one is suggesting that. In fact who wants a dueling arena anyway? Not me, never asked for one.
Certainly even you can see that there is a lot of animosity towards the unrealistic buffs and their blown out of proportion effect on gameplay? in the game and getting all huffy and defensive and misreppresenting people is not gonna help you. I also believe that jumping in a fighter and getting kills would not be as easy as you think for you
We can have more realism AND more fun. You fail to realize that most of the "guns are too good" thing comes out of the fact that buffs have to be attacked rapidly and with abondon or they are not worth attackin... they have allready done their 'damage'... suicide buffs are all over the place. Lone buffs killing and entire field (making it useless for either side) is common. these things are wrong for both gameplay and realism. they can be improved. don't be so defensive.
lazs
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Back to the subject matter of the thread, I've post one method of buff engagement with a film, read "Aces High Training Film" thread in the HELP section.
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Thanks Ripsnort for expelling the myth of untouchable buffs, nice films on that site I'd recommend everyone view them <S>
Lazs> You just don't get it do you? you claim to want a less gimmicky arena and yet you wish to allow the endless spawning of fighters from a field??
Who are the "everyone" you speak to? the only animosity I see on the topic of buffs hitting FH hangars is you on your tired worn out little soap box. The only other complaint there has ever been was about buff guns and yet we see Ripsnorts film clealy showing its possible, the only people that want to tone down the guns and neuter buffs are the quakers who want a quick bang for their buck at the expense of the players who like to fly buffs..hardly fair but then fairness is not your style is it Lazs? you'd rather push this arcade game view on all of us just to keep you happy.
in the game and getting all huffy and defensive and misreppresenting people is not gonna help you
??? When have I got huffy in the arena of it? are you now putting words into my mouth I don't recall ever showing such behaviour so I'd appreciate a screenshot of such an act.
In fact who wants a dueling arena anyway? Not me, never asked for one
The very nature of the way you want to change the MA will turn it into a mass duelling arena.
Certainly even you can see that there is a lot of animosity towards the unrealistic buffs and their blown out of proportion effect on gameplay?
<cleans off monitor screen, looks behind it, below and shakes head>
erm the only animosity I see is your constant whining about the same thing
We can have more realism AND more fun
And fighters endlessly spawning is more realistic? 15 minutes hangar downtime is realistic? inflight radar on all planes is realistic? the small ammount of damage done to buffs before they break is realistic? what colour is the sky on your planet Lazs?
You fail to realize that most of the "guns are too good" thing comes out of the fact that buffs have to be attacked rapidly and with abondon or they are not worth attackin
So stick another quarter in the slot you cheapskate! there is more to flying a fighter than mindlessly chasing one furbal lafter another, ever tried a bit of recon? with all the concessions of inflight radar and the ability to endlessly spawn should be more than enough to find a bomber or two.. but then that does not fit into your arcade mentality does it?
don't be so defensive
LOL so we should sit quietly by an let you rave on and on about how buffs should be neutered and whine on and on about making the MA into an arcade arena and say nothing? Well I'm sure you'd like that but it ain't gonna happen! I had said after the last thread you started to ignore you but then I figured something had to be said or HTC might just think its what we all want when it so obviously is not.
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"...I have yet to see ANYONE in the MA moan about a bomber taking out FH's and spoiling the fight...".
Maybe you have all your radio channels squelched? It's a common complaint, believe me.
bowser
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Just for fun, let's play a little logic game with the "pro-ueberbuff" morons.
hanks Ripsnort for expelling the myth of untouchable buffs, nice films on that site I'd
recommend everyone view them <S>
Straw man. The claim isn't that buffs are "untouchable", but rather that the current strength given to their guns is damaging to gameplay.
Lazs> You just don't get it do you? you claim to want a less gimmicky arena and yet you wish to
allow the endless spawning of fighters from a field??
tu quoque. The endless spawning of fighters is not at issue.
Who are the "everyone" you speak to? the only animosity I see on the topic of buffs hitting FH
hangars is you on your tired worn out little soap box.
Appeals ad populum are fallacious to begin with. The cogency of Lazs' argument is irrespective of how many people actually hold it.
[qupte]
The only other complaint there has ever
been was about buff guns and yet we see Ripsnorts film clealy showing its possible, the only
people that want to tone down the guns and neuter buffs are the quakers who want a quick
bang for their buck at the expense of the players who like to fly buffs..hardly fair but then
fairness is not your style is it Lazs? you'd rather push this arcade game view on all of us just to
keep you happy.
[/quote]
Bite me
"The only other complaint" That's clear suppression of evidence. Here are some other buff complaints:
A. The bombsight is way too accurate.
B. The bombsight is boring and easy
C. Bombs cannot be salvoed safe
D. Dweebs like Revvin fly them
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Ripsnort's film clearly showing it's possible? BFD. One training film of an ideal fighter pass and suddenly hours and hours of experience on both the interceptor and the bomber side are invalidated?
"quakers who like a quick bang for their buck"?
nice ad hominem, amazinhunk.
I like to fly bombers. I like to blow toejam up. I want to see the buff guns be more realistic. I also want to see the number of Chawgs restricted. So fck me!
quote:
in the game and getting all huffy and defensive and misreppresenting people is not
gonna help you
??? When have I got huffy in the arena of it? are you now putting words into my mouth I don't
recall ever showing such behaviour so I'd appreciate a screenshot of such an act.
Well you sure as hell are defensive and misrepresenting people here.
The very nature of the way you want to change the MA will turn it into a mass duelling arena.
Slippery slope, like "If you keep the buff guns the way they are, there will be perkpointing ackstars and Arados, and nothing in between".
quote:
Certainly even you can see that there is a lot of animosity towards the unrealistic
buffs and their blown out of proportion effect on gameplay?
<cleans off monitor screen, looks behind it, below and shakes head>
erm the only animosity I see is your constant whining about the same thing
You shouldn't fault your opponent for assuming you had common sense.
quote:
We can have more realism AND more fun
And fighters endlessly spawning is more realistic? 15 minutes hangar downtime is realistic? inflight
radar on all planes is realistic? the small ammount of damage done to buffs before they break is
realistic? what colour is the sky on your planet Lazs?
A red herring here. Plus "small amount of damage to buffs" is begging the question. Many of us would like to see at least some of those things. But any arena with "buffs with realistic guns" is certainly more realistic than "buffs with ridiculously powerful guns".
quote:
don't be so defensive
LOL so we should sit quietly by an let you rave on and on about how buffs should be neutered
and whine on and on about making the MA into an arcade arena and say nothing? Well I'm sure
you'd like that but it ain't gonna happen! I had said after the last thread you started to ignore
you but then I figured something had to be said or HTC might just think its what we all want
when it so obviously is not.
Yeah, don't be so defensive. Your illogical ranting only bolsters our position.
BTW, if you see a Ju88 ackstarring along in the MA, it's probably me.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-17-2001).]
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well,
Guns are pretty ok but the speed of buffs is too high i.m.o. Lower the speeds and u will get interesting fights against fighters who can manouver better against the slower buffs.
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Originally posted by lazs:
One attention starved no talent can spoil the fun for a lot of guys.
lazs
Hmmm...so if you fly bombers, you are a "no-talent"....hmmm.
Sorry Sunchaser...it seems you have no talent. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You ever think that maybe you are just running into someone who knows what the hell he is doing behind those bomber guns. I myself attack bombers all the time. If I come upon one who starts spraying at d2.0 then I know it is a newbie and I take a few more chances in getting in to make the kill. However, if the gunner doesnt open up until I get in close then I know I might be in trouble unless I take some precautions.
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Originally posted by 101bakx:
well,
Guns are pretty ok but the speed of buffs is too high i.m.o. Lower the speeds and u will get interesting fights against fighters who can manouver better against the slower buffs.
Hi 101, welcome! Doubt you'll see speeds lowered unless you have facts and data backing up that the historical speed is truly porked on a particular flight model. Positioning ones self is required to adjust your flight path for the speed of the buff. In WW2, I cannot recount one german pilot asking the B17 formations to slow their approach to IP's.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regards.
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Nice try with the big words there Dinger but your potty mouth spoilt it so we can see where your mommies words end and yours begin, try typing the whole thing yourself.
The endless spawning of fighters is an issue because buffs are forced into taking out FH's or they stand no realistic chance of survival against wave upon wave of fighters.
Your illogical ranting only bolsters our position
You might want to read what you post before hitting the 'submit reply' button, it might stop you making a hypocritical love muffin out of yourself.
As for being a dweeb...OMFG you got me there, the pain is unbearable LOL.
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rev.. u are ranting like a loon. U are misrepresenting me also. I don't believe that you have even the slightest idea of what I want. Ranting is fine but try to cut down on the lieing.. As for the color of the sky on my planet... What difference does that make? On "my planet" people are complaining about the unbalance and unfun of the bombers. Perhaps it really is different on your planet tho. What color is the sky there?
You are getting really personal with your insults... I don't mind that but... you should refrain from bald faced lies when you do as it will give your insults more strength and credence.
I have never said that bombers couldn't be shot down... only that it took too long to make any differrence and that it was boring, unfun, and embarassing because of all the concessions, be they 1 man crews or gunnery or bomb accuracy or bomb sights or whatever.. I also feel that more targets is better... I also wouldn't mind realistic accuraccy and bomb damage.
If you simply want a bomber arcade then fine... say so... admit that you don't want realism and simply want an arcade game to play while everyone else is in a sim. put in another coin and solo crew an entire B17 with laser guided boms and bogus targets.
As for endless respawning... we don't have endless respawning. We wouldn't have endless respawning if fighters were available longer and fields closed easier. 15 minutes for fighter hangers down?? well, yeah... In reality it would take about 15 minutes or so to fill in craters and get planes back in the air. to get everybody out of the slit trenches and back in planes but... 15 minutes is as much as a quarter of the time most people have to play and the hangers can easily be knocked out again right away. The field isn't usually captured tho..... Oh no... it is simply useless.. nobody can take off and the attackers have nothing to do but mill around. Make the fields easier to close/capture but make fighters available till the bitter end.
lazs
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<snipped>
[This message has been edited by Revvin (edited 04-17-2001).]
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When you are open to listening to other people's ideas, maybe then I will be less abrasive in my handling of you Lazs you have not taken the time to listen to a word I've posted in topics on buffs so I can't be bothered to candy coat it anymore for you as you only want things your way and to hell with everyone else, you're a selfish manipulative person who is only interested in taking this sim down the rocky road to arcade game ruin.
I was foolish to have ever bothered replying to another post from you Lazs but I though maybe just maybe you would perhaps listen to the other side of the argument but I was wrong...perhaps one day you will but right now I seriously doubt it.
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two quick points... maybe neither of us has listened to the other in previous threads but... difference is.... I don't claim to know what you want and.... It appears that you are the one not listening. I have made suggestions in THIS thread while, so far as I can see, you have done nothing but alternate between attack and pout. come up with and idea and I will discuss it. You might try discussing some of mine also. They are easy enough to ferret out.
lazs
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Revvin, how about this: As far as I can tell in Aces High the FMs for all aircraft are as accurate as HTC can make them. This also hold true for fighter weapons, but this does not hold true for bomber weapons. Wouldn't it be nice if the arena design were such that bomber's didn't need unrealstic weapon effects? The question is how can the arena be improved so that bombers don't need these compromises to realism.
Hooligan
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Hooligan, yes there are changes needed, to BOTH sides. Both fighters and bombers have many concessions but I tried reasonable debate before with Lazs and I may as well have talked to the wall, he does'nt want to listen.
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uh... rev.. read again what hooli said and then re-read what i have said all along.
also... besides bomb/rockets... what about fighters flight model and weapons is "concession" ridden? I don't ever take bombs or rockets in fighters for that reason btw.
lazs