Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on January 13, 2002, 12:23:58 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/12/rec.firefighter.statue/index.html
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This time Grunherz.......as much as it pains me to say......I agree!
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What a hypocricy...
The three firefighters in the photo -- Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy Eisengrein -- declined to comment
Good men... Real men.
Yegorov and Kantariya should have been black and yellow...
Buck it... Who remembers Yegorov and Kantariya?....
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CC. For once, Grun's 100% correct.
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What! No Arab's?
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Arab's what?
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What ever you like. Political correctness is not hampered by things like reality.
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The only reason I differ in opinion this time is because the statue is intended to remember all who fell, not merely recreate the moment. Further, they have acknowledged from the start what the intention was, so I guess I see it as no biggie. If on the other hand they had claimed this statue was a representation of the picture, well, then we have another story.
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Sorry, I was speaking about English grammar... :(
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Yegorov and Kantariya should have been black and yellow...
weren't they "purged" sometime after :)
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Kieran. Common sense would dictate that they commissioned an artist to design a memorial from scratch. In this way the NYFD could have included anyone they saw fit. NO COMMON SENSE.
I thought this thing was odd. But I felt that the NYFD had earned the right to put up any sort of memorial they saw fit. I have been seeing firefighters on talk shows complaining about this. Apparently the politicians took over the project. And made their usual mess of things. At least we have reached the point where these fire fighters can point out the lie, with out getting fired. Progress is being made.
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I can't argue with you on that, Easymo. Good point.
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...just when i thought my contempt for political correctness had stablized, they go and pull this stunt.
i suppose a new paradigm in recording history exists where now it doesn't matter who really did something as long as we remember it and memorialize it correctly.
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This is so bulllovely. They are altering history for the sake of PC.
Next thing you know, maybe in two hundred years, history books will say that Jefferson was Black, Washington was White, and Thomas Edison whas obviously hispanic, with a little bit of Arab.
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I have to agree with Grun.It should depict the three firefighters that are in the famous picture.No genetic alterations in the name of PC...
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Originally posted by easymo
Kieran. Common sense would dictate that they commissioned an artist to design a memorial from scratch. In this way the NYFD could have included anyone they saw fit. NO COMMON SENSE.
Good point, easymo. I only fear that now that I agree with you, the apocalypse is around the corner.;)
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One more and ill try to shut up:).
Some damned fine Americans went into those buildings, and died, doing there job. I am in absolute awe of such men. Being Americans, the color of their skin could not matter less. If you look at that photo. It is obvious that the point of it, was that the stars and stripes were being put back up. I cant belive that men of color, such as these, would spend one second worrying about who was holding the flag at the time. They were after all brothers in uniform. I know this is presumptuous of me. But, I think they would be saddened by this being turned into a lie. It cheapens what was one of New Yorks finest moments. And all of Americas, in turn.
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"I think the artistic expression of diversity would supersede any concern over factual correctness."
Now that is a scary quote.
F.
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Yup, I hate this toejam.
I was also always amazed that the best Shuttle Crews were always made up of a black, woman, asian, white, and... dunno, pry a studmuffin or a homeless person. Someone oppressed by everyone else for not being male,white and most qualified I guess.
The REAL dudes should be there, I don't remember any Asian Americans on the Iwo Jima memorial, do you? Those racist bastards in the 40's...sheeesh.
(http://www.iwojima.com/iwojima/images/main_small.gif)
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As I recall there was an American indian helping put that thing up. I think he was included in the statue, because he was actully there.
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As he should.
If the sanction NASCAR this way, can you imagine the carnage? (Asian drivers...heh) -cymbal crash .wav-
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I actually had to think a second about that "cymbol crash"- then I thought of "Sixteen Candles". Every time they said the Asian Exchange student's name (Long Duk Dong) you heard a cymbol crash.
Funny, Creamo, too funny.:)
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Cant believe they didnt make the last white guy a cripple with tits to really round out the trio.
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Racism of the worst sort.
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Whotta buncha gawdamned boneheaded and ignorant ijits we got fer civic leaders.
*sigh*
PC will kill us all.
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Big deal...
It's not altering history... it's a frigging piece of bronze.
The history is in the newspaper photo.
Certainly, the "artist" who came up with this could have and probably should have come up with somethin original. Scratch that... The artist should have come up with some other idea. The point of the memorial is to honor all of the firefighters and not simpy McWilliams, Johnson and Eisengrein. This statue is not about them.
On the other hand... the fact that it does resemble the photo, it's a tip of the hat towards McWilliams, Johnson and Eisengrein.
Maybe they should consider themselves honored to be the inspiration for the memorial.
Either way.. I'll not lose any sleep over it.
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Maybe they should consider themselves honored to be the inspiration for the memorial.
That has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever read.
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Re-read some of your own posts. :p
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Originally posted by Kieran
The only reason I differ in opinion this time is because the statue is intended to remember all who fell, not merely recreate the moment. Further, they have acknowledged from the start what the intention was, so I guess I see it as no biggie. If on the other hand they had claimed this statue was a representation of the picture, well, then we have another story.
so, where´s the lady displayed in that statue? agreeing anyways...
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They could have copied the picture as it was and then stood some politically correct firemen around it watching the flag go up
as I'm sure there were.Then all sides would be happy.
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Do they really think the sculpture should honor just those three individuals because they pulled a rope to hoist a flag up a pole one day? They're suffering from illusions of grandeur.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Big deal...
It's not altering history... it's a frigging piece of bronze.
The history is in the newspaper photo.
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typical lib response:rolleyes:
of course it's changing history, what are they going to display the photo under the statue with exclaimers telling the real story?
when viewed 10, 20 50 years from now, who'll know they WEREN"T the ones who raised the flag on that day at that spot??
biggest load of pc bs in a while.
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Originally posted by Eagler
when viewed 10, 20 50 years from now, who'll know they WEREN"T the ones who raised the flag on that day at that spot??
...and who will care? It's not just about McWilliams, Johnson and Eisengrein. It's about all the others too.
Memorializing a kodak moment. It's not conservative nor liberal. It's sappy and contrived.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
...and who will care? .
I would and anyone who'd be interested in the REAL history of the event..
those three grabbed the flag and hoisted it, not the ppl in the statue.
what if it'd been three black firefighters in the photo, would the statue have been changed so easily to include other races, especially a white guy??
don't think so ... one way street this pc bs.
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This is exactly the type of "SPIN" Bill Oreilly does each day and claims to abhore. Chose a topic that is so obvious a three year old would agree with it and use it to degrade all liberals or people who favor evenhandedness in language. It isn't horrible to want to represent all people in a memorial. It is wrong in this case because the statue is from a historical document (picture).
Think before you jerk that knee.
All PC isn't bad, all conservatives aren't dumb. :rolleyes:
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The idea of PC isnt really the problem. The problem is how far some looneys push it, and the fact that they dont realize 2002 DOES NOT EQUAL 1965.
1965 is long long long long time ago, even the most liberal must admit that 1965 was very long ago and was practicaly a different country. Ok loony PC heads must understand its not 1965!
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Statues are to capture a moment of histroy in which perserverance and American pride stand tall. They are to capture the emotions and the determination of the people involved in the moment in history.
In this case, it is not the people dying, or the people falling to their deaths from a burning building- that's not exactly "statue worthy", is it?
No, this is to capture that one moment in history we all saw on the front page of the news paper, where those 3 fire fighters stood tall with our flag on top of the rubble of the WTC.
The only people who want it changed are those that are up for promotion or trying to score some browny points with the higher-ups and of course those out there who believe it shows equality. Hey buddy, if you want equality you should of gotten your "other than white" bellybutton up there and held up that flag!
-SW
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"1965 is long long long long time ago, even the most liberal must admit that 1965 was very long ago and was practicaly a different country."
Dam punk kid! ;)
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Originally posted by Eagler
typical lib response:rolleyes:
Typical Eagler response. You've become broken record Eagler, you don't contribute crap anymore.
Blah blah blah fediddlein libs. That's it...that's the distilation of all your posts for the past few months. I mean, aren't you even beginning to bore yourself? You've become backround noise. It's become dead simple to guess which treads you'll post in, and what your post will be comprised of.
Here's a hint, "It's all the fediddleing libs fault." Well, thank you very much Eagler, that was very inciteful.
If you actully read this tread, instead of posting on auto-pilot, you would have noticed that, in fact, alot of the staunch liberals on this board are agreeing with the conservatives. You may now return to your mindless mumblings.
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Absolutely damn right im a "damn punk KID", Im 21 years old, born in 1980, and I did not grow up in an America where where Blacks were lynched or not allowed to vote or had their churches burned or their leaders murdered or were not allowed to live in a nice place or werent allowed to attend integrated schools or were not allowed good jobs or were limited from fully participating in society. Thats what I mean by its not 1965, because its not. In fact I came to an America where my first friend was a Black kid a bit younger than me who lived a few doors down in our nice Apartment complex.
Now we have that two-bit hooligan racenazi Jesse Jackson shaking down Japanese car companies for millions of dollars because they put a black man with a gold tooth in ONE of their commericals, and that they dont have Blacks on their Japanese board of directors. I wonder how many Japanese nationals are on the board of Jesses Mafia? WTF is that?
Tahgut are you beggining see why Im so upset at PC and race politics, I mean the particular things and trends that upset me?
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"were limited from fully participating in society. "
The "punk kid" remark was a joke, sorry if it was not taken as such. I already knew you were 21, as you posted it before. The world you came into was and is not how you describe it. Sorry Grun, but utopia has yet to establish itself. Blacks continued to be limited from fully participating in many ways even after your birth. Maybe the ways had become more subtle but they still existed. The real point is that 1965 is NOT that long ago and the affects of that time linger on. The specific items you mention are upsetting, and I agree with you on some i'm sure.
You can go ahead and be angry though, "youth is a disease easily cured with time"
or as Dylan wrote " Good and bad I defined these terms, quite clear no doubt somehow........But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."
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CC I saw punk kid was a joke but really more true than not, I am a kid. :)
I think its sad that so many simply ignore the enormous progress this nation has made in civil rights and plain decency. So many of the radical racenazis just ignore it all and think its 1965. Its not.
Look Im in the liberal Bay Area so Black here may be better off than lets say somewhere in Alabama today but dont say its no not enormously different from 1965.
Cool Im an angry youth radical now. Hehe never think Id be one, do I need to paint my hair green and get some "Free Tibet" tye-dyes???? :)
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The 3 firefighters and their families are hoping to cash in on the copyrights to the photo. Their issue with the sculpture is that the sculpture builders are in violation of their copyrighted matierial.
This is straight out of the mouth of the attorney who represents the 3 firefighters. These firefighters want to make money on the royalties from t-shirts, posters, silk pillows, lunchboxes, etc. No problem with that, but let's not bring the race card or the PC card in here to obfuscate that fact.
In my opinion, the 3 firefighters who raised that flag are no more heroes than I am. At least not for the act of hoisting a flag. I raise the flag every morning at my house, and I'm no hero. The same goes for tens of thousands of other Americans who do this every day. Those 3 fire fighters know this. They don't want or expect to be honored for that. What they want and expect is royalty fees.
To more realistically capture the mentality of some of these NY firefighters, I'd almost rather see a sculpture of NYPD cops handcuffing the firefighters at ground zero and dragging their rowdy tulips off to the hoosegow. Talk about realism.
I salute and respect most firefighters a great deal. I know we have some outstanding ones among us here. But I don't particularly respect these 3 fire fighters and their families for their cynical and money grubbing conduct over a sculpture of an event that is going to become almost sacred in our history, so they can sell a few more posters.
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The intention of the three firefighters as stated by their lawyer on TV,Fox News,is that all proceeds from copywrite are to go to the Firemens Fund to help victims families.
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Your no hero anyday Guntard, and your point about these guys at ground zero made while you ajusted your A/C so you were comfy to wow a flightsim community with your insight and type this wisdom was what?
If they showed up at your house, you'd toejam yourself, and crap their statue in bronse. Get real. Bet everyone else in the background would be impressed too. Do the math.
They ought to make money, and be shown for who they were. The 1 perk they get for this whole toejamcake.
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They are going to be marketing T-shirts, posters, and everything under the sun.
Its about money and copyright violations.
As to their lawyers statements as to what they are going to do with the money in the years to come, well I'm not so sure about that .....
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Gunthr, you should re-read what ET wrote:
"The intention of the three firefighters as stated by their lawyer on TV,Fox News,is that all proceeds from copywrite are to go to the Firemens Fund to help victims families."
I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune if you were one of those 3 firemen Gunthr.
-SW
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C'mon Creamo... don't parse Gunthr's comments down and try to pick holes in the statements. Sometimes, you just have to sit back, breathe deep and simply admire the cynicism. :D
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Creamo, why do you think I would sh*t myself if "they" showed up at my house?
I work with firefighters on a regular basis. I am a certified firefighter myself, in addition to my career as a police officer. I just call em like I see em.
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Cuz it sounded good at the time, and tweaked you. Thats all.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Typical Eagler response. You've become broken record Eagler, you don't contribute crap anymore.
Blah blah blah fediddlein libs. That's it...that's the distilation of all your posts for the past few months. I mean, aren't you even beginning to bore yourself? You've become backround noise. It's become dead simple to guess which treads you'll post in, and what your post will be comprised of.
Here's a hint, "It's all the fediddleing libs fault." Well, thank you very much Eagler, that was very inciteful.
If you actully read this tread, instead of posting on auto-pilot, you would have noticed that, in fact, alot of the staunch liberals on this board are agreeing with the conservatives. You may now return to your mindless mumblings.
Typical Thrawn response. You've become broken record Thrawn...... blah, blah, blah...
please ignore, just another auto pilot post for Thrawn.. :)
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heheh, I only appreciated the irony, after I posted it. But I felt that I had a good point somewhere in the hipocracy.
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yeah it did sound good Creamo - the part about crappin out a bronze statute :D
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As both a Firefighter & EMT by trade I take it REAL personal about this "PC roadkill". It seems some prople will go out of there way to screw up something.
That statue, IMO, should represent the historical moment in time. Just like the one of the Marines on Iwo Jima. It should have nothing to do with races or specific people - but should represent us all in how we felt as a nation or at least the Fire Dept Community.
Guys, those guys didn't put up that flag in the middle of all that horror with the thought in mind "Hey we can make a fortune on this!" They did it because of PATRIOTISM. That we as a country would draw together and NO ONE no matter what the damage they inflicted on us would drive us down. UNITED WE STAND!
SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 - NEVER FORGET!
Chief Andrew Fraize St.C. V.F.D.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
C'mon Creamo... don't parse Gunthr's comments down and try to pick holes in the statements. Sometimes, you just have to sit back, breathe deep and simply admire the cynicism. :D
perhaps because your comments were tardlike?
You and every one of us all know that these three firefighters are not concerned in the least about money. To infer such a thing is horribley insulting and ignorant.
What you fail to recognize is that these 3 men, and the hundreds of other brave and selfless firefighters put their lives on the line on sept 11 AND EVERY OTHER DAY, HOUR, MINUTE, AND SECOND, of their entire careers.
These gentlemen did not join up for the chance at fame, fortune and immortallization in the form of a statue. They joined because they had a interest in the job or a desire to help those who cannot help themselves at a critical moment.
And as far as you wanting to see the NYPD cuffing and dragging of the firefighters..you make me sick
If you have any idea what it means to be a cop or a firefighter (which despite your alleged claims to training you obviously dont) you would diddlying lose it too if one of your brother's was about to be scooped up in the bucket of a cat a half torso at a time rather than removed from the rubble in a respectable manner.
What you need to do is STFU, think about what having a career about risking your life is all about, then maybe you can talk.
p.s. oh and btw no firefighter ever joins up because he thinks he may die and that that fact is part of the job.
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C'mon loser, you have no clue why these firefighters joined up or any other firefighter for that matter. Unless you've somehow developed telepathy.
For that matter you have no idea what they were thinking when they put up that flag.
And I'll be damned if it doesn't look staged.
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Loser, the reference to dragging the firefighters off to the hoosgow was in reference to some of the firefighters at ground zero who took swings at cops who were just doing their jobs.
But why dwell on it? Overall, I'm awed at what those men have done, what many of them sacrificed, and the job they do. That wasn't my main point. I don't mean to offend.
PS: Chief Fraize
I'm sorry I don't agree with everything you have to say, but I agree with the spirit.
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So,
Which one is Eisengrein?
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"And I'll be damned if it doesn't look staged."
Why some of you left leaning types just have an innate problem with powerful patriotic images, does the flag bother you? Or do you feel uncomfortable about your lack of patriotism in this moment of national emergency and strike out at those who display it?
And yes Thrawn I know you live in in Canada but that doesnt really matter because:
1. Everyone knows that Canada is the USAs big old 51st state. :)
2. I honestly think it was an attack on all decent and especially western civilization.
3. It still shows your hesitancy about patriotic images.
Of course I could be wrong in my interpretation, if so explain yourself please.
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Originally posted by Wotan
weren't they "purged" sometime after :)
Nope ;)
What you could call "purge" was that Kantariya's brother was a well-known gangster in the 50s. He was caught and spent some time in prison. I can't remember the details, but it was something extraordinary.
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THAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF!
this PC crap has got to stop!
i am in no means a racist, and i'm sure that plenty of hispanics, blacks, asians, and martians (for all i know) have done...and continue...to do their part for our nation, but i am sick and tired of these pc types and their re-writing of events to suit their aims and goals.
The Tuckster
"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."
Col. Chuck Yeager, USAAF
(http://members.aol.com/tuck0006/images/lawnd2a.gif)
(http://members.aol.com/tuck0006/images/tucksspita.jpg)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
[
And yes Thrawn I know you live in in Canada but that doesnt really matter because:
1. Everyone knows that Canada is the USAs big old 51st state. :)
2. I honestly think it was an attack on all decent and especially western civilization.
3. It still shows your hesitancy about patriotic images.
Of course I could be wrong in my interpretation, if so explain yourself please. [/B]
Yeah, I'm not too comfortable with patriotic images. It probably has more to do with being a Canadian the being liberal. Though images of the grave markers in France and the monument at Vimy Ridge move me deeply. But it still does looked staged to me.
As far as Canada being the 51st state...not yet, I believe that I'll see it in my life time...but not yet.;)
And I agree, it was also an attack against all decent, democratic countries.
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Why would being Canadian make you more likely to be uncomfortable with patriotic images in general, or were you being specific about it because its a USA image?
Thanks!
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"As far as Canada being the 51st state...not yet, I believe that I'll see it in my life time...but not yet."
That may not be as far fetched as it seems. With our Presidents enthusiastic help, Americas well on the way to becoming The Northern Republic of Mexico. When the Mexican Americans get a big enough voting block to put their own man in the white house. He will no doubt open the southern flood gates. European Americans may be looking for a place to live. We had better start being nice to the Canadians.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Now we have that two-bit hooligan racenazi Jesse Jackson shaking down Japanese car companies for millions of dollars because they put a black man with a gold tooth in ONE of their commericals, and that they dont have Blacks on their Japanese board of directors. I wonder how many Japanese nationals are on the board of Jesses Mafia? WTF is that?
Imagine how many japs are black......
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why would being Canadian make you more likely to be uncomfortable with patriotic images in general, or were you being specific about it because its a USA image?
Thanks!
Most Canadians I know love their country as much as any American loves the US, we just don't talk about it much. Their are many reasons why it is so. Probably has alot to do with the fact that the "Victorian Era" ended in Canada in the late 60's.:o
It's just not seen as "polite". Though I don't think that's really the proper word. Although this seems to be changing.
Their are exceptions to this though. Our beer is better, our hockey players are better, and of course on Dominion Day(Canada Day) we are very demonstrative about our patriotism.
An example. A chain restraunt openned up in Ottawa about 3 years ago. It was called Perkins, and it had a little maple leaf to dot the "i". Everyone knew it was American owned. The restaurant had the biggest mofoin Canadian flag hanging outside of it I've ever seen. No way any Canadian restaurant would ever have something like that outside of it.
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Originally posted by easymo
[B That may not be as far fetched as it seems. With our Presidents enthusiastic help, Americas well on the way to becoming The Northern Republic of Mexico. When the Mexican Americans get a big enough voting block to put their own man in the white house. He will no doubt open the southern flood gates. European Americans may be looking for a place to live. We had better start being nice to the Canadians. [/B]
:D
Canada had it's chance to be a great east-west power. Shortly after WW2 ended. We had the worlds fouth largest military. Our diplomatic corps was the most respected in the world. We were at the forefront of science and technology. And our economy, while not as powerful, was better than that of the US. This lasted until the early 60's. Then something happened...
I'm not sure exactly what. But I'm pretty sure it was mostly our fault. I know bits and pieces. The Avro Arrow was cut. The Avro Jetliner (first passenger jet plane) was cut. Immigration wasn't what it could have been. Too much spending by Trudeau on social-services. And we started our slide.
After Sept. 11 Canada draft immigratioin legislation that was almost a mirror image of that in the US. Our laws weren't written Canadians but by Americans. This really upset me. Our economic ties grow tighter and tighter.
I've resigned my self to the fact that Canada and the US will become closer and closer. And for the most part we get along great and you're pretty good neighbours, and we have alot of the same principles.
If however Canada does become a US state, the Democrats are in for a treat. I believe the vast majority of Canadians would vote Democrat before they vote Republican.;)
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Originally posted by easymo
When the Mexican Americans get a big enough voting block to put their own man in the white house. He will no doubt open the southern flood gates. European Americans may be looking for a place to live. We had better start being nice to the Canadians.
Maybe you should move to Canada now and beat the rush.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why would being Canadian make you more likely to be uncomfortable with patriotic images in general, or were you being specific about it because its a USA image?
Thanks!
GRUNHERZ bud i am Canadian.. read my post
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Originally posted by Thrawn
C'mon loser, you have no clue why these firefighters joined up or any other firefighter for that matter. Unless you've somehow developed telepathy.
For that matter you have no idea what they were thinking when they put up that flag.
And I'll be damned if it doesn't look staged.
Thrawn you may just be wrong on this one. My brother is a firefighter...and i have talked to a few of his "brothers" i think i do have a clue.
p.s. of course you couldnt have known this from my original post..but i chose not to mention it on purpose
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They screwed up the statue. If they wanted something to honor the black and hispanic fire fighters, they should have made something for them. Why are they honoring the living anyway, shouldn't they have made a statue for the dead firefighters?
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And now they are removing famous pictures of George Washington a nd other "old white males" to be replaced with that of more modern women to "better represent the diverstity of modern society"..PC is now running amok with no boudries in sight!!!!!!!:mad:
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Well Gloria Steinem did lead the fight against England and I do think it was anther lesbian feminist who ended slavery...... :rolleyes:
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So the fire chiefs get their PC correct statue and put it in front of HQs in Brooklyn.What tourist is going to go out and see it in Brooklyn ?
Put a statue that is factually correct with the original firefighters,in Battery Park near the new WTC.
I heard many times that when the flag went up on Iwo Jima,most Americans on shore and at sea who saw it,stopped for a minute to look at it and cheered.
I think that anyone at the WTC,firemen,police,EMT whatever race or sex they were ,would have done the same.Stopped whatever they were doing and looked up at the flag.
They could add additional figures around the statue of firemen,police,different races and sexes and whoever else was there,to reflect the diversity of all who were there on that day.
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Why are they honoring the living anyway, shouldn't they have made a statue for the dead firefighters?
Fdiron
That is part of the point I was trying to make.
I guess those who think the statute should "capture the moment" and not represent the sacrifices of the NYFD in general stop short of suggesting a sculpture that shows firefighters being crushed, maimed, burned and sufficated. The "capture the moment" argument just doesn't work.
The "capture the moment" argument only makes sense if you insist on copyrighting the matierial.
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I guess you could say the same thing about the Iwo Jima monument.
Ever taken a visit to the Vietnam Wall? My dad is a vet, I work only 6 blocks from it- I visit it frequently. This memorial honors the dead, the men who sacrificed their lives for a war we should of won- but our country couldn't support our soldiers.
One thing I noticed about that particular monument, there are no statues.
-SW
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To: New York City Council, New York City Fire Department
We the undersigned citizens of the United States, and concerned citizens from other nations, hereby petition the New York City Fire Department and the City of New York as follows regarding the proposed statue depicting the raising of the US flag at ground zero of the WTC attack by firefighters on September 11, 2001. ..
http://www.petitiononline.com/flgraise/petition.html
10663 Signatures Total ... I'm one of them.
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Montezuma. Maybe what we should do is trade countrys straight across. In a couple of generation we would turn Mexico in to a world power. And by then America would be just another third world toejam hole. Then we could do it all over again.
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Originally posted by easymo
Montezuma. Maybe what we should do is trade countrys straight across. In a couple of generation we would turn Mexico in to a world power. And by then America would be just another third world toejam hole. Then we could do it all over again.
So Mexico is the way it is because they are not "European" like you easymo? LOL.
Go get a "History" book. Read it. Pay special attention to the part where Americans were upset because the floodgates were opening to all those damn Irish Immigrants. Or how about all those damn Chinese immigrants that were gonna take over once the railroads were completed.
Easymo let me explain how America works.....the idea that is America is not dependent on EUROPEANs running the show. Many cultures have come here and have done quite well within our system of government. What makes you think people emmigrating from Mexico cannot do as well?
Please note I never once used the term RACIST in this post;)
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"What makes you think people emmigrating from Mexico cannot do as well?"
The southwestern border.
It could have just as easily been moved up a state or down one. Look at the difference between Arizona and the Mexican state across from it.
FWIW. I would be every bit as unhappy if the Canadians were trying to invade us. But for some reason they seem to be able to run a successful country on their own.
I have no trouble with LEGAL immigration from the south. It is the one MILLION illegal Mexicans that bush wants to make citizens that bother me. If some one breaks into your house. Adopting them into your family is not the logical response. These Politician will sell your birthright for a few votes (read personal power) in a heart beat. The only difference between Rep's and Dem's is that the democrats want the American tax payer to subsidize them until the get enough people here.
Please note. I did not use the phrase. Your a moron. Any where in my post.
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easymo said this.......
That may not be as far fetched as it seems. With our Presidents enthusiastic help, Americas well on the way to becoming The Northern Republic of Mexico. When the Mexican Americans get a big enough voting block to put their own man in the white house. He will no doubt open the southern flood gates. European Americans may be looking for a place to live. We had better start being nice to the Canadians.
and this....
Please note. I did not use the phrase. Your a moron. Any where in my post.
Simply fantastic easymo how in one post you talk about how "European Americans" need to be nice to Canadians because "Mexican Americans" might get too big a voting block....but you are not a racist? Now you say you would feel the same if Canadians were "streaming across the border". Would you run to Mexico? I doubt it!
Come on easymo, you feel this way because Mexican Americans have a different culture and you don't like it. Canadians don't bother you because they look like you.
Never once mentioned "YOU'RE a MORON" and I can spell it.
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Mexicans are good workers. Some speak broken English, some speak great English, while others speak none. But usually the ones that can't speak a lick of English work with ones that speak either great English or broken English so you can still communicate w/'em. And on top of that, if they don't understand what you are saying, they are pretty good at picking things up or understanding things through pointing at things.
Besides, they take all the crap jobs no American with an education wants.
-SW
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I notice that you ignored my answer to your question. I can only surmise this it due to the fact that no matter how furiously you wave your magic PC wand, you cant make reality go away. Mexican society is a complete failure by western standards. In contrast. During the 20th century, the German people where brought to their knees twice by war, and once by runaway inflation. Yet, at the end of the 20 century they were a modern industrial society.
Also. The old, call them a raciest ploy. Has been over used by people like jesse jackson, and your self. It is fast becoming recognized as nothing more than a quick dodge, for people that cant come up with a reasonable answer. Now, if you want to accuse me of not being PC. Have at it. Hell, i am proud of it.
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"Mexican society is a complete failure by western standards."
I suggest you look into the History of Mexico and its "society". They have traditions, architecture, music, arts, literature and more that you have absolutely no clue about. If you are basing your claims about "failure" on the border towns on both sides of the border you are indeed working under mantle of ignorance, and I apologize for not seeing it sooner and backing off.
Basing your conclusions about Mexico on the border towns is like visiting Harlem and making conclusions about African culture. A failure by western standards....now that is rich. I guess Tibetan culture is also a failure "By western standards". Well they aren't rich or industrialized. Even though they have thousands of years of history and a rich culture.
Try to see beyond the filth in your local barrio easymo.....that isn't "Mexican culture" either!
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The subject was politics/economics. Attempting to switch it to art is pointless, and obvious. I can think of few subjects more subjective than art, and "culture".
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The subject in your mind is politics and economics because thats how you define society, and that is my point. Politics and economics are just a part of what make up a society. You said SOCIETY, not socioeconomics or politics.
Thats OK though, because you have made it clear what you admire in a SOCIETY. Poor Germany, "brought to its knees by 2 world wars and runaway inflation". WHO brought Germany to these points of devastation? Could it be....German Society?
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Tahgut you can compare Cultures on a social/political/and economic level and rate one as superior to another. Comparing art and food and music is more or less pointless since those are very subjective things, whos to say if burgers are better than sushi or falafels?
Anyway I think youll ptrobably disagree and call me a racist.
But considefr this:
But wouldnt you say the USA social/economic/political culture is INFINITLEY SUPERIOR to that of Taliba era Afghanistan?
Isnt the current social/economic/political culture of the USA INFINITLEY SUPERIOR than that of the pre civil war USA, especially in the south- where your sons would be slaves?
Or how about east germany and west germany same people same culture in music and food, but please remind us all which side had to put up a wall?
Now comparing Mexico and the USA. Which countrys citizens are braving hostile deserts and murderous smuglers in search of a better life. I sure dont see you running south to the border Tahgut. And the Mexican people arent stupid and helpless as you liberal love to assume, they MARE A RATIONAL DECISION based on their circumstances to leave mexico and come here. millions of other foreign national do to, as did my Father.
Listen up you USA doubting/hating people it is the BEST country and best CULTURE in the world quite possibly the best ever, millions of hopeful immigrants can only dream of livinghere. While you take it for granted and never even realize how different it is from countrys THAT DONT diddlyING WORK RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
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The subject was not in my mind. It was the direction the thread took, when I posted a tongue in cheek comment about moveing to Canada.
FWIW. I would compare Michelangelo's David, or one of his pieta, to anything produced south of the Border. Pre-Colombian art looks like it was made in a kinder garten class to me. Such is the subjective nature of art.
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Good Grief...........you have missed my point completely. I never said Mexican culture was as good as in the USA. I was comenting on the racist, nazi, crap being spouted by others on this thread. I didn't start the culture comparison....easymo did.
The point is that if Mexicans come here and VOTE they are as much Americans as any European that comes here and VOTES. Easymo said he was worried about the "MEXICAN AMERICANS" taking over by building a bigger voting block. Illegal immigrants don't vote so don't use that dodge either. Then he said it was a failed "society", not as good as those wonderful "Germans". If that isn't racist than nothing is. If they are AMERICANS then they are AMERICANS!
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From my experience Mexican-Americans are some of the most patriotic Americans that I have ever met. This is true today as it was in the past.
What worries me today is the new trend to race specific politics- where people are pressured not even see themselves as hyphenated Americans but just by their race. This is dangerous.
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illegal immigrants become legal if bush has his way. Which is how this whole thing actually started.
BTW you can call me a raciest one thousand times. It still wont be a substitute for a reasonable argument. The bottom line is. Mexicans have done a lousy job of running their country. And there is no reason to think they wouldn't do a lousy job of running this one.
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Originally posted by easymo
Maybe what we should do is trade countrys straight across.
Your kooky theory where illegal immigrants somehow elect the president made no sense, they can't vote.
Hispanic-majority Los Angeles elected a white mayor, so I think your ideas about the demise of the white race in America are premature.
Unfortunately I agree that this country is becoming more like Mexico; with our Enron crony capitalism, corrupt public officials, and dirty election.
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Ill try this one more time.
MEXICO CITY (AP) -- Visiting a Mexican state with a high rate of migration, Mexican President Vicente Fox promised Thursday to try to get the U.S. to legalize Mexican immigrants by the end of the year.
Fox told a group of farmers in the northern state of Durango that at last week's summit U.S. President George W. Bush indicated his commitment to work with him on such a plan.
"For those who are there, we're going to work and we're going to fight to ensure that, I hope this year, we are able to change their condition, that they be recognized legally over there," Fox said during his visit to Durango state, which has one of the highest rates of migration in Mexico.
Fox said Bush "also publicly took on this commitment that together we're going to convince the Congress of his country to legalize each one of the illegals who are there and to earnestly respect their rights."
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If they are legal they can become Americans. Then they can vote. Not to mention the voter support of present Mexican
Americans.
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Rodrigo Mayorga / Immigration Attorney: "I'd really rather have an undocumented alien whose been here ten years driving with a license and possibly with insurance than not."
Some see this as Latino voter insurance for the Bush Administration which received only a third of the Hispanic vote, but there is big opposition.
Andrew Stein / Fed. for American Immigration Reform: "People crashing the borders breaking the law getting ahead of the line telling the guy who waits patiently and plays by the rules he's a sucker."
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And for those who think it will stop with the 3 million Mexicans.
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While the number of illegal Bangladeshi immigrants are small
compared to Mexican population, it is only reasonable and fair to
extend the same privileges to a group that has been equally
contributing to the American economy, immigrating to make the American
dream come true and is part of the continuing vital workforce that
distinguishes America from the rest of the world. Illegal Bangladeshi
immigrants are facing the same hurdles and obstacles as other
immigrant groups in terms of having access to needed health care,
good and humane working conditions and an opportunity to rise above
the pebbles through affordable education and participation in civic
duties.
In addition, Bangladesh is continuing to produce many hard-working
workers in diverse fields such as engineering, agriculture, medicine
and handicraft. They should be given an opportunity as well to
immigrate in legal ways, instead of resorting to risky venture of
overstaying visa and entering the country without proper documentation.
Bangladeshis are generally a bunch of dedicated hard workers. In the
spirit of continuing with and cementing the Bangladesh-US
relationship, please look into this issue and add Bangladeshi illegal
immigrants and Bangladeshi workers to any bill that is proposed by the
Bush Administration or in the House or Senate.
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"BTW you can call me a raciest one thousand times. It still wont be a substitute for a reasonable argument. The bottom line is. Mexicans have done a lousy job of running their country. And there is no reason to think they wouldn't do a lousy job of running this one."
I've made plenty of reasonable arguments, none as eloquent as the statement above though. THEY would only be running this one if THEY were Americans. Somehow the fact that THEY would be Americans does not matter to you because THEY would be Mexican Americans. Even if THEY originally came here illegaly, THEY would be Americans under the laws of our land. Americans with different skin color and even a different primary language. That just galls you doesn't it?
Mexicans have done a lousey job, but those Germans sure are wonderful, rebuilding after 2 wars. Reason that out easymo....how did they do it?
Reread what Vincente Fox is proposing...not citizenship. Maybe if the jobs we want these people to take were made more readily available then we would have less of a "border problem".
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I dont care that much about the Germans. The point was that they seem to be able to fend for themselves. In contrast.............
Hernandez said his office, which was created by Mexican President Vicente Fox to handle immigrant affairs, will also push for U.S. banks to allow illegal immigrants to open accounts and send money to Mexico at a cheaper rate. He said money sent by immigrants back to Mexico is the country's third largest source of revenue.
One third of their income? That is a HUGE amount of money. It is money that will NEVER be used for trade in this country. It will never help the average American. And it wont stop going south if THEY are allowed permanent residency.
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back to the original thread ...
guess you guys all know the statue was scrapped :)