Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on March 08, 2001, 11:51:00 PM
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I understand the perk system, and I really like it. However, I have a question...
Why is the Ar-234 perked?
1st, it only carries 3 bombs, barely enough to kill a hanger.
2nd, it climbs worse than a Lancaster.
3rd, it cannot carry enough fuel for the long haul required to get up to altitude.
4th, it has no defensive guns.
5th, although it has a high top speed, it takes forever to accelerate.
So here is the scenario... I took off A48 with 100% fuel and 3 500kg bombs, heading south for A6. It took over 1/2 the fuel load to reach 23K where I was almost 3/4 of the way to A6 (125 miles)
I leveled off and accelerated to 400 true air speed. A 25K P-51B spotted me and dove around for the kill. I tried an evasive climb, but with the 3 bombs, the speed quickly bled off. I was forced to drop my bombs away from target. The P-51 managed to close but fortunately, he only managed to kill my right engine, blow the oil for both engines, blew off my right aileron and damaged my nosewheel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) before he ran out of speed.
I was fortunate again that the 234 glides very well as I lost my left engine about 45 miles from A44 (closest safest base to land at)
So, I ask how is this plane unbalancing to the arena? It can't defend itself, and it can't climb to high altitude unless you take off from a base like A48 which is at 8.5K already. Now that I have flown it, I am going back to prop buffs. At least in those you can carry a lot of bombs and kill stuff, including fighters.
Un-perk the 234. It's useless.
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Midnight
13th TAS[/i]
midnight@13thtas.com
"...it's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." -Christian Slater True Romance
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 03-08-2001).]
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I really want periscope tail cannons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Used effectively in a group the Arado is highly perk-worthy. As a single ship mission?...naw, not alot of good for anything but fun. In a group...lookout.
Swamp
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I agree sort of, I dont think it is a "perky" enough plane to warrent the price it costs, it costs as much as the friggin tempest, the most expensive fighter. And the arado is not to bombers what the tempest is to fighters.
A: I can do VERY VERY minimal damage to anything.
B: it cannot defend it self.
C: it climbs very slow past 10k
D: It doesent have the range do do much more than attack the next field over.
E:unless they attack in mass (which is not gonna happen with a cost of 70 points each) they are no real threat to anything.
All the arado has is speed...and it trades almost EVERYTHING else for that 1 advantage.
its not worth 70 points...30 maby.
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Someone played a sick joke on me. I took a 234 over to 15 and as soon as I pressed the button to release my bombs .. "HOST CONNECTION LOST"
I think all my neighbors are woke up now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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ive landed on runway cut engine and typed .ef only to see
SYSTEM: You have been killed.
140 points down the toejamter.
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Arado is perked because in general use it's untouchable. How many times do you run into a 25k P51?
Everyone's perk-plane hunting because everyone's trying them out. In general arena use the Arado will be a very effective weapon.
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duma... where you been this tour? Every where you go, you run into high A/C now. This map is built that way.
Now that there are more medium to high alt performers, you will be seeing a lot more high altitude planes running around.
This is one person who is not looking forward to running into a 5 - 6 ship group of 190-D9s at 25k...
Believe me they will be there. Which brings me back to my point... Why is the Arado perked?
Let's say you take off from a standard field. That's about 1.5k in this map. You would take about 15 to 20 minutes just to make 20K (so you could be semi-safe) By that time, your fuel will be about 1/2 gone. Now you still have to fly to target and drop your 3 lousy 500kg (1100lb) bombs and then fly home.
If there ae any enemy in the area (and with this map, attacking an undefended field is virtually impossible) you had better hold altitude until you are safe into freindly territory so you don't land at a forward field. The way the 234 comes down, you have to do a lot of turns to scrub the speed. Don't get caught by the roving Ta-152, 190-D9, P-51, N1K, YAK, LA5/7... see my point?
The 234 just is not perk material. MAYBE it would do well in numbers, IF you could get 5 or 6 DEDICATED pilots to sit for 45 minutes or more so they could disable 1 field. Good Luck finding that in the MA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Midnight
13th TAS[/i]
midnight@13thtas.com
"...it's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." -Christian Slater True Romance
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Ar 234 is perked because it was rare plane during WWII. And it is fast.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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I have flown H2H on and off for a while now and I rarely have enough time to fly more than 2-3 missions in a day and I usually can only fly 2-3 days a week max.
I joined yesterday (paying money) to fly the Ar234 online against more than just a handful of people. With this perk point I will never get to fly it in the main arena. I will cancel my account and live with H2H if I can't fly it.
Also I need to point out to Duma and anyone else that says P-51's (or anything for that matter) dont normally hang out at at 25K. Every mission I died in I was in a Ju-88 or B-17 at 25,000!
I dont mind the fact that I got shot down or have to earn perk points. I do mind the fact I paid $30 to fly the Arado online and cannot. Why not give the new guys some perk points to get em started!
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Chuck Perry
"Sky61"
[This message has been edited by Skysix1 (edited 03-09-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Skysix1 (edited 03-09-2001).]
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I flew the Arado exclusively last night. It SHOULD be perked.
It was untouchable, period. I also think it should NOT get the 20mm. In needs to have a weak link somewhere.
I bombed and re-armed and bombed again without any worries. Once or twice a couple of 152's and Doras would get close, but put the nose down a little and bye-bye.
I am in favor of leaving it perked, and I also intend on flying it alot.
Cobra
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Once people sort out how to use the 234, and what its particular niche is, you will see why it is perked. For example, if you see a high group of dots coming over a base, HQ, or whatever you will climb high enough to ID them as Ar234's then turn away. You won't have a prayer of catching them, and you will move on to more productive targets.
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Barely climbs over 10k? I had that thing going 2k a minute offline and I was past 15k. It ocilates when in auto-climb and gets real twitchy if you don't have your stick set right. As it stands a single Ar234 can blow one hangar at a field; that's it. Get a group of four together and you can team up with a goon or M3 to take any field you want. One quick Blitz raid and the field is toast. What used to take about 15 minutes in a Lanc or B-17 can be accomplished in a single pass with 4 or more Arados. That's why it's perked.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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In needs to have a weak link somewhere
Id say being able to carry only 3 bombs would constitute a "weak link"
if you see a high group of dots coming over a base, HQ, or whatever you will climb high enough to ID them as Ar234's then turn away
Wich will seldom if ever happen because they cost so much. and it would take over 7 of them at once to kill a HQ, insted of just 2 lancs.
Barely climbs over 10k? I had that thing going 2k a minute offline and I was past 15k
3x 500kg bombs 75% fuel and autoclimb at 250mph (default)
@6k 2000fpm
@9k 1500fpm
@14k 700fpm
@18k 550fpm
sure it climbs well with no ord and low fuel, but in a realistic situation..once over 14k i climbs slower than a lanc.
I flew the Arado exclusively last night. It SHOULD be perked
I agree it should be perked but NOT at the current price.
Average arado mission= .75-1.30 points.
so to keep one you must have at least 70 successful missions without dieing, or you will not mae enough points to keep using it much.
Arado is perked because in general use it's untouchable. How many times do you run into a 25k P51?
since the new terrain release 25k on up to 28k FURBALLS are commen if not the norm in the ma and that was BEFORE they released the 106 planes.
Lets put it together shall we.
A: Carries only 3 bombs.
B: climbs VERY slow to get to even a reasonable alt 20k
C: has NO guns.
D: has very low range.
E: cannot get over 1.75 points in a sortie with it.
F: reasonable operation alt is far below commin furball alt so if ya see it coming any decent fighter WILL catch it.
A+B+C+D+E+F = 70 points...i dont believe so.
It is a vulnreable as a goon to anything with over 5k alt advantage on it...which is the norm in the MA.
I say make it cost say....20-40 points, but for god sakes not 70. Its only "advantage" is speed, which is useless if any cons are very far above it. EVERYTHING else it totally SUCKS at.
I was actually suprised they perked it at all.
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Wobble-
Did you try dropping the nose to gain a little speed when attacked? I haven't, but I would be curious to see who has and what the result was. I suspect it wouldn't take long for the 234 to get enough separation to escape.
The point to the perk cost is to keep the arena from being full of them. I have no problem with the cost of the perks as they stand now- and I had major concerns going in. In the final analysis, any bomber that can go 400mph+ is a serious threat in the arena despite its relatively small bombload- used in numbers it represents a difficult if not impossible force to stop. Argue 'til the cows come home about everything else, but if you have 'dar and you are careful there will be nothing that will catch you.
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Guys, remember that Pyro said the perk system is still under going changes and is not static yet.
Give em a chance to iron things out.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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What Skuzzy said. But what do you really think would happen if the 234 was available as freely as any other regularly available aircraft is? It wouldn't take long till all you saw were 234's everywhere PORKING bases. Because that is all they can do. They can't dogfight, they cannot capture a base nor can they resupply one. They are good for are fast, lighting quick strikes.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-09-2001).]
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I flew the Ar a bit last night. I also jumped into a H2H game and played with it. Holy crap, if this thing had a couple of .50's in the nose it would be the best BnZ platform in the game. Completely untouchable. I was cruising through furballs letting higher guys dive on me, then just doing a 0G dive and checking out on them easily. Once you hit about 400 Mph you can wave buhbye to anything. If a higher fellow gets close, just drop the nose a tad to get up over 400, then level it out.
Worst case scenario, a bounce by a higher contact? Reverse on him as he comes in and Split-S out of there... by the time he figures out what happened he won't be able to see you anymore.
BTW, the Ar235 does a really nice hammerhead. It actually reverses cleaner at about 30 Mph going straight up, you just yank the stick back and it will flop down perfectly for you with a notch of flap. Although it seems to accelerate slowly at low speed, if you wind it up to 300 or so and dive it slightly, it really hauls ass.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Originally posted by Cobra:
I flew the Arado exclusively last night. It SHOULD be perked.
It was untouchable, period. I also think it should NOT get the 20mm. In needs to have a weak link somewhere.
I bombed and re-armed and bombed again without any worries. Once or twice a couple of 152's and Doras would get close, but put the nose down a little and bye-bye.
I am in favor of leaving it perked, and I also intend on flying it alot.
Cobra
I'm in total agreement with Cobra, I too flew it and also chased it (with a TA152 at 30k advantage, 234 was at 20k, didn't catch it!)...it needs to remain perked.
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Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong from your description. But if you were 23k and he was 25k, at approximately nose to nose situation, why did you try to manuever at all?
Blow under his nose to avoid the HO, and keep going. He would never catch you, well maybe in 2 or 3 sectors, but by then you have dropped your bombs and now he cant catch you.
You can't think defensively with this bomber, think agressively and use your speed to get past opponents.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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used in numbers it represents a difficult if not impossible force to stop
thats my point kieren, that the ONLY way they are much of a threat, and at 70 points a pop there are not going to be many times that a large number of people will be able, this perk plain rally that we have now will dry up soon when people use up their stashes of points, after that there wont be many people slaving away for the 70 points needed to buy the arado, so raids of more than 3 (at most) of them will be rare to non-existant.
Did you try dropping the nose to gain a little speed when attacked? I haven't, but I would be curious to see who has and what the result was. I suspect it wouldn't take long for the 234 to get enough separation to escape.
yep it picks up lots of speed, but if any fighter is above you or co-alt all he has to do is follow ya down and he will either stay even with you till you level out and then kill you, or accelerate faster in the dive than you and kill you..either way, yer dead.
i outran a dora at 10k..i had to push it to the ground to keep the 2.0k distance and the only thing that saved me was that he just lost interest. anything like a L-7,p-51D, P-51B, yakU, YakT, will catch it if they have over 3k at advantage and are reasonably close, and those are not even perk planes. The tempest and the 152 will smear it like nothing.
The tempest is amazing, it has many things that make it really good and dangerous, SPEED, Good guns, good climb rate, fairly agile, dives great, goes verticle great, a will rounded lethal plane. so it is the most expensive fighter in the game.
THe 234 is fast....thats it..it DOESENT climb that great, it has NO guns, it has a pathetic bomb load, it has HORRIBLE fuel consumption..aside from the speed everything about the Arado is JUNK...yet it cost as much as the Tempest...
I dont want to compare a fighter to a bomber cause thats Apples and Oranges, BUT like I said
The arado is NOT to the bombers what the Tempest is to the fighters.
I'm in total agreement with Cobra, I too flew it and also chased it (with a TA152 at 30k advantage, 234 was at 20k, didn't catch it!)...it needs to remain perked
Noone is saying it shoudent, the discussion is about the price, is it worth 70+ GOOD sorties just to buy 1?
For the record ive flown over 25 sorties with the Arado so far, have been killed twice and have earned exactly 18 perk points. On almost every single mission I hit my targets, so based on those numbers at the rate im going for getting points ( and with 3 bombs ya cant get much more) i will have to fly over 100 successful arado missions without being shot down 1 time just be able to keep flying it.
100 missions in a row without ever being shot down, in a plane that climbs slow and has NO guns, and has disgusting gas milage, that is the minimum to keep flying it.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 03-09-2001).]
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I flew one sortie in the Arado last night. Was going to bomb a hanger and rtb. Ended up dropping my eggs when 2 La7s and a spit turned in behind me. With the eggs gone I started to leave'em behind.
Saw a 190 (assumed D9 since it's new and unperked) at about 10oclock high and coming fast. Started an easy turn into him, making sure to stay under his nose to avoid a HO. He came around behind me, getting as close as 900yds on my FE as I put the nose down a little. He held at that range for a minute or so then started dropping back. He tried a little spray and pray as the range opened to 1.1+ but never landed any strikes.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
I flew one sortie in the Arado last night. Was going to bomb a hanger and rtb. Ended up dropping my eggs when 2 La7s and a spit turned in behind me. With the eggs gone I started to leave'em behind.
Saw a 190 (assumed D9 since it's new and unperked) at about 10oclock high and coming fast. Started an easy turn into him, making sure to stay under his nose to avoid a HO. He came around behind me, getting as close as 900yds on my FE as I put the nose down a little. He held at that range for a minute or so then started dropping back. He tried a little spray and pray as the range opened to 1.1+ but never landed any strikes.
That was me in a TA152!(are they listed as '190' on enemy FE?) Near A15 I think? Yep! never got closer than 900 then I hit the 'sonic layer' and slowed...good show!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-09-2001).]
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From another post of mine:
There is something that puzzles me. Well, I dont see the need to perk any plane in a 1944-45 plane set, provided they flew and were in combat during those years, and since production numbers dont mean anything here.
Are the Niki and the C-Hog the kings of the arena (so far)? Yes. Indeed we see lot of them ... clouds of them, literally. Look at the stats. Well, why do I have to see clouds of Niki and C-Hog "dweebs" and not clouds of Tempest or Ta-152 "dweebs"? Whats the difference in a "what-if" plane set? I've been playing for many months against some of the best a/c of the whole second world war (P-51D, 109G-10 and Georges for example). Now that we have more of them (maybe we lack only the late Spitfire IX-XIV, the late Yak-3 and the Ki-84) ... why do they have to be perked?
Becouse they were the best from 0 to 15K (Tempest)? Becouse they were the best super-high alt interceptor of the 1945 (Ta-152H)? Hmmmmmmm ...
I know the perk system will be under evaluation for some time. Lets wait and see. But I hope HTC will find a good solution to this weird situation.
No flame, but it looks like using double standards to me.
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Use the Arado like it was designed for. Run on the deck at 400 IAS and just go. Pop to drop bombs, dive to deck, go home. Easy.
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
In arena: semperfi
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Use the Arado like it was designed for. Run on the deck at 400 IAS and just go. Pop to drop bombs, dive to deck, go home. Easy
That would be the case if it was possible to avoid radar, even if yer flying 10 feet of the water you will show up on enemy dar, so trying anything sneaky has pretty much been banned in AH. I would love to come burning in at 300 ffeet pop up and drop my eggs then vanish again below the radar..but in AH its not possible, do whatver you want and you will show up on dar no matter what...kinda sucks IMO.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
That was me in a TA152!(are they listed as '190' on enemy FE?) Near A15 I think? Yep! never got closer than 900 then I hit the 'sonic layer' and slowed...good show!
Ta-152 is labeled at 152.
mx22
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ZOOOOOOOMMMM!!! Eat my dust runstang!
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Think about it as a the kick bellybutton jabo plane...
-it's faster then any fighter
-it carries VERY good bomb load ( 3 x 1000lb - more then P47 i believe )
-it has a norden <sic> therefore you can't miss.
- you can fly to far target and back in really quick sortie. Lanc is something of 1/3 of it's speed.
- if you fly it at 10k and are careful enough to see attacks coming - you are pretty much untouchable.
It's an ultimate jabo bird. Squadron of 8 planes can whack the radar for whole country in one 25 minute flight with relative immunity.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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You climbed up to evade a fighter?
You happend accross the only situation that would form a threat to you. And you lived even though you did the totaly wrong evasive....
What is not perk about that?
If you see the tempest fight at less then 10k you will undersand totaly why it is perked. I suspect the same is true of the ta152 at its alt. See them in the arena and then decide....
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Jochen just to clarify a point
arado production was 274 (30 prototypes,244 production aircraft)
ta152H production estimated at 220 (including prototypes)
if production numbers is your criteria for perking, the F4UC (200 produced), should also be perked.
its speed is the only reason possible that it is perked,and as wobble says,you wont always be flying at over 400 mph so 70 does seem a litle expensive.but it is a test period so im sure it will settle down to maybe 40 perks or so
Im all in agreement that a newbie should be given enough perk points to fly 1 perk plane of their choice just to let them see what its like in MA with a perk ride.
hazed
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OK...
Westy... you are right. It needs to be perked. Maybe a little cheaper though. Will let Pyro figure that out.
Verm... that 25k P51B was on my high 10:00. I had bombs on. The P51 made a dive past my 8:00 as he turned in to me. I kept it level and hoped for the best. The P51 then managed to get on my direct 6:00 low and had enough speed to get closure. I started to pull up and left to force him to continue climb and turn hoping to bleed his E further. It worked, but he was close enough to fire and blew the oil on my right engine which quit on the spot. I dropped my bombs, turned North and put the nose down. The P51 managed a few more hits after that resulting in the loss of my right aileron, left engine oil leak and damaged nose wheel. I pulled away after that and RTBd.
It was a hair raising event to say the least.
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Midnight
13th TAS[/i]
midnight@13thtas.com
"...it's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." -Christian Slater True Romance
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i outran a dora at 10k..i had to push it to the ground to keep the 2.0k distance and the only thing that saved me was that he just lost interest. anything like a L-7,p-51D, P-51B, yakU, YakT, will catch it if they have over 3k at advantage and are reasonably close, and those are not even perk planes. The tempest and the 152 will smear it like nothing.
Wobble, look at what your saying.
If you outran a Dora, your FINE its the fastest non perk plane in the inventory, and easily faster than the La-7, P-51D, P-51B, and the Yak-9U.
And the Yak-9T ???? The Yak-9T is slow slow slow. Its about as fast as a Spit V if I remember correctly.
And a Perk smearing a Perk as you call it? I see that as the ultimate justice. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure