Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Curval on January 14, 2002, 08:18:45 AM
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I am sure this has been the subject of multiple threads, but as I am relatively new I haven't seen it mentioned yet.
I have been flying the Spit IX this tour and have increased my kill count as a result. But, one aspect of the Spitfire does appear to be missing from the flight model and it probably is the reason why people think the Spit IX should be perked.
The Merlin engines that powered the Spit IX (and Spit V) were fed fuel through a gravity based carberator system. The BF109s' were fed by a fuel injection system.
The difference between these two systems actually evened the "playing field" when Spits and 109 tangled in the skies. The Spitfire could not simply nose-down and dive....the effect of this was to cut the fuel supply to the engine due to the gravity feed necessary in a carberator system...and the Spit would slow down considerably as fuel was unable to get to the pistons...the engines would splutter, and if a 109 was on its tail the Spit would likely end up at the bottom of the English Channel...or wherever the fight was occuring.
To dive away from an enemy plane the Spit iX would be forced to invert and then pull back on the stick in a split-S type manouver if the pilot wanted to keep a regular flow of fuel to the engines in real life.
The 109 did not suffer from this loss of power effect when in a nose-down dive as its fuel was delivered to the pistons by an electrical injection system.
Having said this I have been flying and enjoying the Spit IX the way it is now, but if accuaracy is what is desired from AH the Spit FM should be changed to incorporate this reality.
My Spit 0.02
Curval
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...the carb was fixed by the time of the IX, if I am not mistaken. Karnak will provide the details (or Funked).
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Actually I think the problem was solved by the Spit MkII.......but as you say, Funked will confirm this cos he knows EVERYTHING about spits. :D
Of course, if HTC bring the Spit MkI out with 1.09 and it DOESNT model this........
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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If it was fixed I stand corrected......
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Just the early Marks (I & II) had gravity fed carberatuers. The Vb and IX had injection.
-SW
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Quite a lot of the Spit Vs and and even a few of the Merlin 61 powered Spit IXs had float carburators. AH simply models versions of those marks that are fuel injected.
Look for the upcoming Spit Ia and Hurri I to have float carburators.
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None of the Spits had fuel injection. Later models did have pressurised carbs, that eliminated the problem.
Early Spits were retrofitted with a restrictor that prevented the carb from flooding (flooding was the real problem, not fuel starvation).
Around 5500 Spit IXs were made. Over 5000 of those had the pressurised carb. But the AH Spit, if it has a Merlin 61, as performance indicates, should have some problems with negative G.
Of course, it should really be modelled as one of the 5000 with higher performance, no negative G problems etc, but that's a different argument.
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Even thought the spitfire LF mkIX made up nearly all the total spit IX's built we get the poormans spitIX.
Hitech will never model the spit LF IX because not even he could control the Luftwhiners whines at the prospect of fighting a decent spitfire.
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There is no point worrying about that. Some people believe even the lowly Spit V is too numerous, therefore worthy to be perked. I say build the LF; far better that one than a Spit XIV that will really send 'em howling.
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I hope the XIV makes it into AH in the not too distant future. The Spitfire was the UK's frontline fighter for the entire war, yet there are not Spitfire's in AH to represent that progression, unlike the 109 and 190s (a 190A-2, 190A-4 and a MW50 equiped 109G-6 would be nice).
Here is an idea for Spitfire progression through the war (aircraft in italics are not present in AH), with the 109 and 190's listed for comparison:
Spitfire MkIa: 1940
Spitfire MkVb: 1941
Spitfire F.MkIXc: 1942
Seafire MkIIc: 1942
Spitfire F.MkVIIIc: 1943
Spitfire F.MkXIVc: 1944
Spitfire F.21: 1945
Bf109E-4: 1940
Bf109F-4: 1941
Bf109G-2: 1942
Bf109G-6: 1943
Bf109G-6/U2: 1944
Bf109G-10: 1944
Fw190A-2: 1941
Fw190A-4: 1942
Fw190A-5: 1943
Fw190A-8: 1944
Fw190F-8: 1944
Fw190D-9: 1944
Ta152H-1: 1945
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LF Spitfire MkVc for me please. The howls would never end. You super tight turning, quad hispano dweeb!!!! :D
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I'm not against the Spit XIV, I'm merely commenting you would hear the howls. A Spit you couldn't run from? ;)
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Kieran,
IMHO, the Spitfire MkXIV has to be a perk plane. That would cure the howls I think.
The F.21 is by no means something I would ever push for, but it would be neat to try a Ta152H-1 vs. Spitfire F.21 as a "what if" fight.
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"IMHO, the Spitfire MkXIV has to be a perk plane. That would cure the howls I think."
Unfortunately, you are correct. The local LW contingent will never stand for an unperked Spitfire MkXIV. Looking at only the performance numbers, it is only the equal of the 109G10 we have, which BTW is NOT perked.
Oh well, we got the Ta152 crammed down our throats, even though the Spit XIV got more votes. Odds are, if we ever do get it, it will be perked to the heavens.........
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Dude, have you actually tried the G10? If any plane doesn't need to be perked, it's that one... it perks itself.
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Originally posted by thrila
Even thought the spitfire LF mkIX made up nearly all the total spit IX's built we get the poormans spitIX.
Hitech will never model the spit LF IX because not even he could control the Luftwhiners whines at the prospect of fighting a decent spitfire.
Funny the only whinning I see is from the spitler youth.
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Thats because we have poormans version of the spit IX (which the luftwhiners still manage to whine about).
If HTC announced that they would be modelling the proper spit IX, the amount of whines from the Luftwhiners would be so immense the Universe would no longer be able to cope. The Universe as we know it would cease to exist- cats would be walking hand in hand with dogs, football hooligans being civilised, Clinton declining a BJ, computer nerds having a life, japanese anime/manga cartoons making sense, children caring for their OAP parents, wwiiol being playable, british having straight teeth, americans being slim and polite, France being a super power...........So on and so fourth.
Do you get my drift?
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"Funny the only whinning I see is from the spitler youth."
That *has* to be wit of the week! :)
Sieg, Sieg, Hurrah!
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...there were only two flavors of the 109, and they were the F and G2- and the Brits had the Spits V, IX LF, VIII, and XIV? I can.
Both sides have their advocates, but the LW have clearly won the inclusion battle hands-down.
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thrila, nice pre-emptive and over the top whine whine.
LOL @ Pongo :)
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"Thats because we have poormans version of the spit IX (which the luftwhiners still manage to whine about).
"
Which is still one of the best planes in the game but the spitler youth still manages to whine about.
Dont think the RAF is well enough represented in the game?
The anouncement of 2 more RAF birds in the next version not enough for you?
If you cant get the job done in the Spit IX we have son..you cant get it done.
Im looking forward to the definitive Merlin spits and the Spit XIV as much as anyone. But its not a conspiracy bud. We started at the middle of spit land and the end of 109 land. Easy to introduce all those 109s cause they were all inferior to the G10. Not so easy to introduce Spits that are supperior to the IX we had cause it is so dam good.
But with the perkies in place I bet we see an Uber spit real soon..
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Originally posted by Pongo
Funny the only whinning I see is from the spitler youth.
Thats funny.....Spitler Youth...LOL!!!
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WOHOOO PONGO!
Spitler Youth! LOL
WTG
:p spitdweebs, I mean spitler youth!
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thrila,
I don't think that the Spit XIV should be a perk plane in order to appease any percieved group of AH players. I think that the Spit XIV should be perked because of how perfectly and powerfully suited to the MA environment it is. If it were not perked it would run rampant, pushing many, many interesting aircraft out of viability. Unperked it would destroy the playability of the MA. I want it perked because I want to play a fun game/sim.
I think that the Spitfire F.MkXIVc should be perked at about 20 perk points. 957 MkXIVs were built and it entered service in January '44, and combat in March '44. Those numbers and dates are quite significant, it also isn't terribly fast at AH altitudes and with a "Spit14" icon over it, it will have a very rough time of it as many (P-51B, P-51D, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, Typhoon MkIb, La-7) free aircraft will outrun it.
Hopefully the Spitfire F.MkXIVc shows up in one of the next few versions of AH.
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Pongo for President !
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iro·ny
Pronunciation: 'I-r&-nE also 'I(-&)r-nE
Function: noun
1 : Fans of WW2-era German aircraft using a play on the term 'Hitler Youth' to describe fans of an aircraft prominent in the defeat of the Nazi regime, then lining up to pat each other on the back for their ingenuity.
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If some you anti-spit people even glanced over my post you would have noticed that i never mentioned the spit XIV. :rolleyes:
Go on i dare ya, i dare to go read my post again and see what i'm actually talking about here. You're are actually managing to whine about things that i'm now whining about myself. I'm not whining about having the spit XIV i'm whining about the spitIX.
For crying out loud atleast i can glance over a post and have some sort of clue what someone is talking about.:D
You luftwhiners are so clever, managing to whine about the fearsome spitXIV even though it's not the subject my whine to begin with.
Look, the current spitfire mkIX is not as good as it could be. It has much less performance than 99% of the spit IX's produced. Uot of the 5500 spit Ix's bult the spit we have accounted for about 300. The rest were the spit IX LF (the better version of the spit IX). The spit IX LF has 15mph extra topspeed and 25% better acceleration which would be nice. Does everyone know understand what i am whining about now?
No i'm not in the spitler youth, i just want the spitIX represented properly. If anything i'm a tiffy dweeb, you can even go check my stats.
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Spits?
DORA.
I know I know, scenarios. But MA I LOOK for them.
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Bomb Jack
You shouldnt have blown by the H section of the dictionary so quickly. You should look at hypocrite for a while.
Thrila
Welcome to the legions of spitfire fans in AH that know that there were much better Spit IXs and VIIIs made in very big numbers and that the one we have is not only based on a 1942 version but is not even represetative of that one.
What does that have to do with calling people luftwhiners.....
That is what makes you a dweeb. Not wanting a better spit.
If you dont like being called names dont do it to others. Dont imply there is some conspiracy between the german AC fans and HT to keep you out of the Spit you deserve. What you are doing is indistiguishable from the whining you are accusing others of. No matter how you justify it to yourself. But dont worry you have lots of company. There are several studley non_whining RAF fans that seem to think their tears are different somehow from other peoples tears.
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Pongo, although i'm a relatively new member to the ah BB community. I have been following these boards for an awful long time, much longer than i started subscribing to AH (don't ask me why, i'm just weird thats all):D
I noticed that whining seems to get things changed if enough people whine. I just feel that the spitfire is under represented in this game due to-
A) lack of spitfire models
B) the models they do have are the poorer/uncommon versions
I don't see why HTC didn't model the spitIX to it's fullest abilities ie the spitIX LF.
I'm not easily offended i can haddle being called names, lol that spitler youth post was funny:D
I use the term Luftwhiner because i find it amusing, i'm sure that no-one reading this board is so insecure as to take personal offence to to it.
Pongo we'll get spit XIV eventually so i'm not worried about that at all, what i am worried about is having a mis-modelled spitIX and being stuck with it.
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It is time for a Carb closed - G Spit!!!
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I say if it saw a lot of action in WW2 then it goes in unperked.
It was extensively used and therefore should never be perked unless it approaches a disproprtionate percentage of use in the Arena.same for any aircraft.
eg
arado-low RL numbers produced, jet = perked
me262-low RL numbers produced, jet = perked
F4uc-low RL numbers produced,overuse in MA = perked
Ta152-low RL numbers produced, (any other reason?) = perked
tempest-relatively low RL numbers produced = perked
F4u4-low numbers produced? = perked
seems simple to me.Introduce the spitIVX but if you overuse it expect it to be perked.Stop all this lufftwhiner toejame.The same rule applies to all LW aircraft.When they approach the overuse in MA then perk them.
I thought that was what it was here for.
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This from palef....
All Merlin spits had carbs, and it was a butterfly type valve that stopped the carb flooding when inverted. Came in on late model spit 2bs. It was actually designed by a friend’s mother that worked in a design team during WWII. She was the first female draughtsman in England. She also worked on Tailfin drawings for tallboy and grand slam. Vivian Potter is her name.
Regards
Jim (palef) Walsh
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A. Correct Hazed. And also remember that "extensively used" isn't simply numbers used, but the percentage you'd likely see.
It's also a matter of unbalancing the arena. heck, having flown the 109 probly more than the spit, I don't see any problem in perking both the G10 and the Spit XIV. If you want an ueber109, take the G6. If you like the 109, well you have a choice: G2 or F4. (or soon, an Emil).
The orifice in question came in both 12-psi and 16-psi varieties. That means that it was applied to the Spit I sometime after the beginning of the BOB (when they moved from 86 to 100 octane, they took their time before kicking the MAP to 54 mm Hg), but they developed it and applied the orifice before they integrated it into the engine.
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Thrila
"I noticed that whining seems to get things changed if enough people whine."
I believe your mistaken. Bringing a desire or problem to HTCs attention and getting someone to argue against you maybe to dredge out the facts definatly does work. Whining from what I have seen doesnt work.
"
I just feel that the spitfire is under represented in this game due to-
A) lack of spitfire models(three now. 4 next version)
B) the models they do have are the poorer/uncommon versions
(Spitvb was very common....Early Spit IX F with merlin 61 and 50 cals is non-existant. not uncommon)
"I don't see why HTC didn't model the spitIX to it's fullest abilities ie the spitIX LF."
Why they didnt? Because before the advent of the Perk planes the Spit IX F we had could make a case for being the best plane we had. It certainly has always been very popular. This is a game and game ballance is very important. The original few planes were very different but very well ballenced to each other.A fully realized Spit IX Lf or HF would have unbalanced the area that much more.
Now with the perk system it will be doable I am sure...
Also for a long time guys insisted they didnt want a proper late war Merlin Spit. They insisted they wanted a XIV and anything else was just a luftwobble conspiracy and an insult.... I was the one saying a nice Spit XVIe would be awsome.... I was attacked for it...They whined for the XIV....
If whineing could achieve your goal I think it would be done now. But in an arena with La7s and Pony Ds and Fw190D9s...I think there may be room soon for a real late war merlin spit.
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Hazed,
The Spitfire MkXIV needs to be a perk from the outset. You and I both know that it would be heavily overused. The Spitfire F.MkIX is already heavily used, so heavily that it is the most common aircraft in the MA by a good margin. I find it hard to imagine that the people who choose aircraft based on what gives them the greatest percieved advantage will not move enmasse from the Spitfire MkIX, N1K2, P-51D and La-7 to the Spitfire MkXIV if it were free when introduced.
Pongo,
I think that a Spit F.XVIe would be a great way for the bubble cannopy Spitfire to be added to AH.
I wouldn't say that the Spit XVI is significantly more representative than the Spitfire XIV however. There were 1,053 Spitfire MkXVI version built against 957 Spitfire MkXIV versions. That isn't a huge diference.
I think that a bubble canopy Spitfire MkXVI and a perked Spitfire F.MkXIVc would finish off the Spitfire representation in AH.
What I can't see is how a lightly perked Spitfire MkXVI would be useful in the MA with a Spit16 icon over it. The performance of the Spit XVI simply doesn't give it enough to survive against the perkplane gang bang that occurs whenever a perk icon shows up.
I think that it would be proabably that the Spitfire F.XVIe would need to be a light perk like the F4U-1C.
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Your right from a numbers stand point. But the XVI could also represent a IXLF(which I think they all were with clipped wings too.)
Then we could get a VIII to represent itself and the IX HF....
Then the XIV...:)
all of em I say!
Or hide am all under the Spit icon like the 190s and the 109s get to....would be a real nasty suppise in the case of a XIV though...
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--- thrila: ---
I noticed that whining seems to get things changed if enough people whine.
--- end ---
Guess you've missed the whole RAM debacle, where HiTech said RAM's whining hurt the cause more than helped.
// fats
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"Guess you've missed the whole RAM debacle, where HiTech said RAM's whining hurt the cause more than helped. "
Worked for the CT.
Concentrated whining lead to a whole arena just for two people.
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Ok guys, so maybe whining doesn't work.
But still, it would be very nice to have a spitIX LF. I do not see any reason why, there will still be many planes that outperform it in one area or another.
I would hope that when the spit XIV would be able to hide under the regular spit icon. I agree with guys on that issue- it simply doesn't have the performance to escape from the gang banging that would happen with a spit14 icon over it.
Now thats all out of the way time to whine about the seafire and the spit21......;)
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My Spitfire has a float Carb too. But it's a Triumph and the only time I took a "nose down" dive was into a ditch, and constant fuel flow was the least of my problems. Injection sure would be nice though.
-Sikboy
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"Worked for the CT. Concentrated whining lead to a whole arena just for two people."
As well as a minimally attended event every Wednesday!
Westy
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If there's only two flying in the CT, then I guess Seeker (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/105score/105score.pl) is one of the two. :)
Kinda OT, but we hope to have one of the new terrains going very soon to add some variety to the CT. Terrain guys are working hard to get them done as fast as possible. I hope to see seeker and his friends when the new Theaters come into play.
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Funny stuff Pongo. :)