Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on January 15, 2002, 08:29:14 AM
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Holy cow! Most ridiculous manuver I've seen to date.
Lastnight flying at 8k in a Yak9U, I look down & see about 4 friendlies chasing a 190. They chased and turned, chased and turned. I wondered what was up so I dive a little to get a closer look. 190D9 on the deck. Why aren't they killing it?
I saddle up and find out. Sheesh! This guys was using the 190 roll rate like I've never seen. He would do 3 or 4 full revolutions one way, nose down for speed, then do the same thing the other way. Heck, I couldn't get a shot! The Yak isn't the most stable guns platform anyway. I zoomed past and let the friendlies try again.
I've seen some state that AH needs to incorporate a more realistic G forces affect to the pilot model. In this case, I would agree.
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I call that the LimpWristed shuffle.
It's very easy to kill them when they do that, I reduce throttle wait just off their 6 about 300yds back. When there's that lull in warpiness when they shift directions, I let my bullets fly. They die.
-SW
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Alot of new pilots, who don't know jack S*** about ACM, use the 190's roll speed (and other planes aswell) to cause warps, I pilot who knows how to fly, don't do this, even if he's outnumbered he dies like a man instead of gaming the game. I've seen this alot lately, and it pissess me off bad.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Alot of new pilots, who don't know jack S*** about ACM, use the 190's roll speed (and other planes aswell) to cause warps, I pilot who knows how to fly, don't do this, even if he's outnumbered he dies like a man instead of gaming the game. I've seen this alot lately, and it pissess me off bad.
I agree with you wilbus. I run into hazed quite alot. I've never seen him do this kind of thing, nor would he. As I used to be a knight & flew with you, I know you wouldn't either.
It was actually kind of funny watching him. You could see the desperation all over him, lol.
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Ive seen this BS before, probaly the same lame bellybutton doing it. Its easy to say chop throttle and wait, but im not going to do that when im trying to e fight him in a p47.
About the G-Force effects apache, totaly agree.. in cases like this its to easy to exploit it.
i hate to bring up realism when talking about a game, but you have to have a degree of it in a flight sim. this guy would have been puking his guts up in realality, if he could even stay consious long enough to do so.
sadly this thread will probably bring more of this behaviour, cant complain to much it is part of the game.
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I don't understand... it isn't okay with you guys to use the biggest advantages of the Dora, roll rate and speed, to avoid death? Defensively, the Dora is the best plane in the game, IMO, simply because you can use the roll rate to constantly remove yourself from your attacker's plane of movement... then your squaddie can nail him from behind. This is like saying that a Spitfire shouldn't execute a hard horizontal break because it isn't fair. I rarely see anyone sit still and let you kill them just because you gain position on them... I thought evasion was the whole point.
Or are you saying that this guy was trying to make his plane warp by stirring the stick? If not, then this is the silliest anti-luftwhine I've ever heard.
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Actually Am0n, this type of manuever wouldn't appear as violent in the real world. Thanks to the lag time of the internet, it appears to be a rapid reversal, but in the real world this manuever would be easier to track and guesstimate what his next move would be.
Internet lag just makes it seem a lot quicker than it really is- and more violent of a manuever.
-SW
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OK, I'm confused.
Was he just doing 3-4 aileron rolls in one direction and then nose down and reverse?
A simple roll doesn't really subject you to heavy g forces.
So, I'm not sure what "g-effects" you'd want added.
But, as I said, I'm not entirely clear on the maneuver used here.
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LMAO.....whining about the FW's roll rate?One of the few maneuvering strengths it has? :rolleyes:
PERK all FW's!!!
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Funny thing I see stangs and 47s and 190s all doing that the same, especially stangs or 47 in dives.... What exactly are you complaing about, its all part of the retarded E setup of the 1.04fm, if they did that crap in 1.03fm theyd just stall and spin into the ground, remember when AH had spins???
Spits and Nikis do the same thing except is a tight turn and sideways shuffle, hard to explain I guess but they do it.
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The E retention was fuxx0rd in 1.03, they got it closer to matching real world numbers with 1.04. Why do I get this feeling that despite the claims for historical accuracy, all some people want is their version of history?
And Apache, you are talking about warp rolling, aren't you?
This isn't limited to 190s by a long shot, F4Us, 109s, virtually of the planes can do it.... but 190s tend to be the best at it.
-SW
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my self im not talking about simply rolling, im talking about rolling constantly while also manuevering horizontaly, thus pulling G's. It creates horrible warps.
Using the roll-rate to proform ACM is awesome, that is respectable but this is not what im talking about.
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Yeah. Talking about "warp rolling". This guy had it down to a science.
Like Am0n, when I see someone doin' this, I just pass em on.
Toad, I guess I was applying laymans understanding of g forces of what I saw to real world consequences. The speed at which these rolls occurred was outrageously fast, however, net lag as I understand it has a role here. Maybe instead of G forces, I shoulda said, RI forces (regurgitation initiation forces).
Sox62. Not complaining at all about the roll rate. The better 190 drivers use it perfectly.
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First of all, please note that I typed "(and other planes aswell)" in my post. We're not whining about the roll rate of the 190's at all, the 190 is the plane I fly most and if, HTC will ever reduce roll rate with a single degree per second, I will quite flying AH right away. The 190 i suposed to have the roll rate, it's its main defencive manuver, as it was in R/L and there was really no plane in the world that could match it. The Dora, although slower roll rate then the A versions, still aheva very good roll rate, P51 matches it pretty good though.
No, what I am complaining about (Kratzer) is that people are "gaming the game".
IMO You SHOULD use all strenghts of a plane, like you said, to win BUT, note the BUT :D you should NOT use the plane to cause warp rolls etc, this is quite easy to do in the 190 because of its very high rate of roll, and it is MOSTLY doen by new people who don't know better. For you new people, I know some, maybe many of you know better so no offence ment with "new people", there are veterans who do it too and they should all be banned for 10 minutes!
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I fly 190's about 98% of my sorties. I try very hard to survive in it without using the internet as part of the flight envelope. Other than the standard whines, I don't believe I have ever been accused of the "floppy fish" or "warp roll".
That being said, I don't see enemy 190's very often, but have seen the "floppy fish" from them on occasion. Lately, in my observations, the biggest culprit of these types of manuevers have been the P-51d's and LA7’s. Especially the LA7’s. (And the stupid thing is it keeps them in range, hehehe)
So, I think there is a hidden agenda in titling of this thread. A bit of easy slander. This behavour is ignored when other non-LW aircraft are doing as much if not more.
F.
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aileron rolls shouldnt cause much g......
F6f pilots are some of the worst "stich stirrirs" imho
they do some kinda of flop that causes them to lose 3k alt I used to think it was attributed to the right wing stall but after the fix they still do it. All planes to some degree or another are "gamed" but I dont see how an aileron roll, dive, reverse would be gaming. Warp rolls happen its the net nothin you can do but artificially pork the roll rates. I'm with Wilbuz on this should that happen I would walk to.
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The internet causes some funny stuff to happen. Last night I had a Stang coming up my 6 fast as hell. I chopped throttle and did a big looping barrel roll and he overshot me. I get "Nice stick-stirring" on ch1. I'm not sure what he saw on his FE, but I was certainly not "stirring the stick" on my end.
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Guilty.
Guilty of using rolling as a defense. P51 or F4U, if I have some alt and I get a con glued to my 6, hell yeah 90 degree nose down, wep, and roll baby roll baby roll. They usually break off or lawn dart at the deck. This approach is not lost on Apache.
I don’t think they’re bagging on the roll in any maneuver it’s purposely using it to get warps. Fortunately I have never run into one of these opponents. The “don’t move controls so rapidly” doesn’t play in here?
Zippatuh
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Once again, I'll excuse myself by saying I don't think I really "get" whatever point is being made here. If a guys just rolling.. it's in the aircraft capability. So be it. If a guy has found a way to INDUCE warp... different story.
I will say, however, that rolling an aircraft at a high rate of roll ... rolling alone now... doesn't produce "g-effect". Pulling g's produces g-effect. Most of the rolls as I read them described here are pretty much unloaded or low-g rolls.
As for "regurgitation effect" I do remember doing consecutive aileron rolls in the T-38. IIRC, the roll rate was said to be around 720 degrees per second using max stick deflection. I don't EVER remember getting sick after doing these... and we did them a lot because they were great fun when you were heading back to the field or in other "slack" times. I seem to remember that you could make yourself a bit dizzy though if you just kept the stick over for an extended period.
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Perk, better remove all FW'S from the game there only good for cheating any way. They Cheat only on nonLW-Pilots in fact.
On the other hand, if there gone I can't die in them so much :D.
The Warprolling Legend goes on :(.
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Originally posted by Toad
Once again, I'll excuse myself by saying I don't think I really "get" whatever point is being made here. If a guys just rolling.. it's in the aircraft capability. So be it. If a guy has found a way to INDUCE warp... different story.
It appears you can induce warp by simply banging the stick around the corners of the cockpit and going from full left rudder to full right at random. Certainly I've seen planes going through some extraordinarily violent and implausible manoeuvres trying to evade. The odd thing is they don't seem to loose energy while doing it. And don't take hits either.
I can't bring myself to use that technique myself 'cos I flew for real - many years ago. But lots of people on AH are ex arcade gamers who consider anything possible to be legitimate. And its hard to argue with that. What would be nice if the host filtered out such overcontrolling to limit the gyrations to what the plane and pilot would have been capable of.
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I will say, however, that rolling an aircraft at a high rate of roll ... rolling alone now... doesn't produce "g-effect". Pulling g's produces g-effect. Most of the rolls as I read them described here are pretty much unloaded or low-g rolls.
Toad, there's always a "g-effect". How much is dependent upon how far the pilot is off the roll axis. Since the pilot is only a 2 or 3 feet off the roll axis in most WWII fighter, and closer on modern jets, the effect is not especially pronounced, but it's always present. Also, there are several different forces in play. That felt laterally during the beginning of a roll is caused by acceleration from rest and the centripital force felt tugging on one's helmet is a function of the radius (distance from roll axis) and velocity. (V^/R). Of course, we cannot forget that gravity is part of the equation as well.
My regards,
Widewing
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What??? Rolling causes warps???
Geez, I am guilty of this as well. First time I heard of this.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
What??? Rolling causes warps???
Geez, I am guilty of this as well. First time I heard of this.
hmmm could be :rolleyes: ;)
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The warprolling/floppy fish maneuvers used to irritate me until the latest "TOTAL STALL" maneuver came into effect. I've seen it with P-51s and 190s quite a bit. I doubt its always intentional, but believe that occasionally it is. It really puts the old flop and extend maneuver to shame.
AKDejaVu
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Guys,
have you considered this? Just another wild thought. Let's define "warp" here.
I am thinking a "warp" is related to network delays and an issue of network connectivity.
Rather, I think I am getting descriptions here that seems to point to the priority of signals and the way AH FrontEnd processes updates.
For example, I see all the time warps of all planes around me when I get to 3000yrds out... always. It seems to me that AH prioritizes signals on planes closer than 3000yrds.
Couldn't this be for this rolling/warp thing? The position of the plane gets priority and the orientation of the plane comes next. The FrontEnd probably has a feature to extrapolate or guess what the next position and orientation are and updates these when the signals reach our terminal. The net result is that the plane seems to be doing wild manuvers when pilot is not really doing that.
Just a thought... Is it really intentionally induced?
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No, some planes are capable of traversing their controls faster than data can be transmitted. These are definitely warps. We are not mistaken. :)
-SW
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I think the answer to that is probably 'sometimes'.
Most people would never intentionally attempt to cause a warp, unfortunately, a few people would.
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Aircraft doin warp rolls are a part of the 'game' in here.. no biggie in and of itself.. I'm sure there's plenty of AH film laying around on hard drives here in this community to illustrate the manuver.
What sucks about it is that when you compared an AH film of these manuvers to any real gun camera footage you'll not find any comparison to what you see on your computer screen vs what you see on the real life film... and I suspect that THAT is what Apache is refering to.
It's bogus gaming, and the manuver in and of itself would not save the guy trying it.. he's lost any advantage, is in a dire situation, and the normal acm part of the fight is long since over. All the guy is doing is desperately attempting to delay the inevetible via internet lag and warps, in some a/c helped along the way by it's superior roll rates.
The really annoying part of the manuver is the delay.. the guy is hoping the other guy stalls and augers or help arrives or he runs outta ammo.. *sigh* I don't think much of the manuver.. and when I do kill the dickhead thats doin it, or worse; get picked off his tail by a pal that had all the time in the world to come rescue the toejamhead, I reflect that at those moments that I don't much like that kind of gamey gay panzie assed gambit, or the pilots that use it and consider the game that much worse for having not corrected the conditions that excaberate it.. like 400+ folks on an overloaded server set making the whole damn situtation an all too freakin common occurance thus makin the game as of late a frustrating unenjoyable pain in my ass.
At which point I log and start punting the cat again.
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Was wondering why my FW slaughtered a whole slue of FDB's last night attacking our base before reset. Was never aware of this warp, I prefer scissors in my Dora anyway. It beats paper hands down thats for sure. BUt it does turn like a rock. SO I take it a Split S is now considered gaming? Stick stirring whatever they all die just some take longer. Have yet to see a warpy FW except for lag. Wondering if people are serious or they just whining again?
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SO I take it a Split S is now considered gaming?
Aside from just plain makin toejam up as yah go along to help fan the flames Sachs, why not re-read the thread.
Nobodys squeaking about a split s.
What we're squeaking about is the diddlyin fishy-floppy gamey bellybutton stick yanking and warp flogging being perpetrated by dwezils and idiots. It's not just FW's.. its all planes that do this, but it so happens that the 190's high roll rate make propogation of this panzie assed gamey manuver even easier. Whats even more interesting is the commentary from quality pilots that prefer LW rides that have noted it, and deplore its use just like I do.
However, if you choose to jerk and twich and flog and yank and tromp and twirl till somebody else comes to save yer worthless hide, hey go right the diddly ahead. I'm sure you'll have earned the respect you so rightiously deserve from your adversary in the process.
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there is no such thing as a 'warp roll'. there is no warp as in net delay stuff. the problem is entirely at your end and it is entirely in your power to fix it.
ah has a strange phenomenon where its frame rates look smooth as glass in all situations until you get in close on the nme's ass. then the stutter starts, but just enough that it's not really noticeable as such unless you really look closely for it. it happens even with relatively 'calm' planes and makes it appear that you can't keep your sights on target, even tho it still looks smooth. if the plane is manuevering violently, such as a rolling fw, however, the stutter becomes more noticeable and dweebs mistake it for 'warps'.
i believe the root cause of this close-in frame rate problem is that at 200-300 yards, just when most people are about to shoot, some level of increased detail becomes visible on planes. so you get an fps hit there you don't see otherwise.
the way to fix this problem is to change your video settings. tone things down a bit. guess what? no more 'warp' rolls and also easier tracking shots on other targets. so quit whining about planes and pilots and either tweak your settings or get a more macho computer.
note: in the so-called fw 'warp roll', there is no stick-stirring involved. you just hold the stick to 1 side and slightly forward so you do 0 or -1 g barrel roll. this confuses your apparent direction of travel, causing nme to use improper lead (hopefully) if they have solved their fps problems. the idea is to gain separation and speed while being hard to hit. fws can pull away from non-shooting dweebs in spits this way, with a bit of luck.
to those who continue to whine about 'warps' and 'stick stirring', when it's their own damn fault for not curing their fps problems, i say 'bite me' :D
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I really didn't intend to start a flame fest. As someone pointed out, the title is in error. It certainly isn't just LW however, the 190 is the 1 that is most prominent to me.
Hangtime said what I tried to say. Intentional flip flop, twisty BS to induce warp.
I'll repeat myself. I have fought against many LW that are excellent. Hazed, Urchin, StSanta, Grun to name just a few. I have never, ever seen them do what I'm talking about and I em.
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Originally posted by Bullethead
there is no such thing as a 'warp roll'. there is no warp as in net delay stuff. the problem is entirely at your end and it is entirely in your power to fix it.
ah has a strange phenomenon where its frame rates look smooth as glass in all situations until you get in close on the nme's ass. then the stutter starts, but just enough that it's not really noticeable as such unless you really look closely for it. it happens even with relatively 'calm' planes and makes it appear that you can't keep your sights on target, even tho it still looks smooth. if the plane is manuevering violently, such as a rolling fw, however, the stutter becomes more noticeable and dweebs mistake it for 'warps'.
i believe the root cause of this close-in frame rate problem is that at 200-300 yards, just when most people are about to shoot, some level of increased detail becomes visible on planes. so you get an fps hit there you don't see otherwise.
the way to fix this problem is to change your video settings. tone things down a bit. guess what? no more 'warp' rolls and also easier tracking shots on other targets. so quit whining about planes and pilots and either tweak your settings or get a more macho computer.
Disagree emphatically. We had warp rolls in WB. In 2d where video settings really didn't mean squat. Was 190's mostly as well.
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Originally posted by Apache
Disagree emphatically. We had warp rolls in WB. In 2d where video settings really didn't mean squat. Was 190's mostly as well.
wb was totally different animal. that game had severe fe problem with drawing changes in nme attitude. would show planes moving belly first while spinning like pinwheel around a wingtip. would also show planes making quick 90^ roll as rolling 180^ and then back 90^, by which time they might have rolled the other way again in real life and fe got very confused.
again, no warping involved. but in wb was exploitation of fe problem. in ah, it's your own damn fault.
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Said it before and will say it again. The anti stick stirring code needs to be tighter. Let the fukin idiots piss and moan.
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I am getting the feeling the two different sides are talking about something different here. As for me, I don't understand what 'warp roll' is, never seen it, and considering it isn't often I engage 190s that isn't surprising.
So, what exactly is a warp roll?
From what I understand by posts above, it seems it is one of these two things:
a) the defender wildly shakes his stick left and right, almost near the verge of getting that "don't move your stick so rapidly", so on the attacker's FE, something goes wrong concerning net lag and it looks like the target is performing weird moves..
b) the defender does fast series of rolls counter to the direction the attacker is moving, so that the attacker rarely ever gets a chance to fire a good shot.
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Originally posted by Bullethead
wb was totally different animal. that game had severe fe problem with drawing changes in nme attitude. would show planes moving belly first while spinning like pinwheel around a wingtip. would also show planes making quick 90^ roll as rolling 180^ and then back 90^, by which time they might have rolled the other way again in real life and fe got very confused.
again, no warping involved. but in wb was exploitation of fe problem. in ah, it's your own damn fault.
I can't seem to locate the "reduce high roll rate aircraft" video settings button. I assume there must be one since these A/C are the only ones that warp on my FE in the matter of which I speak.
Then again, it could be your hypothosis is illogical?
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Originally posted by Apache
I can't seem to locate the "reduce high roll rate aircraft" video settings button. I assume there must be one since these A/C are the only ones that warp on my FE in the matter of which I speak.
Then again, it could be your hypothosis is illogical?
i just love it when dweebs are so set in their misconceptions. they refuse to question themselves and thus never see their mistakes. hence, more kills for me :cool:
look. i'll try and make this simple.... warps come from the internet, somewhere between you and the host and the other players. but the internet doesn't give a rip what the nme plane is doing. to the internet, it's all just a stream of data to be moved along, regardless of whether the nme is flying level or maneuvering. and all the data does is ride along. it contains no commands that tell some random part of the internet carefully and sneakily to introduce warps in the data dealing with only the particular nme plane you're after.
in sum, warps are totally independent of what planes do (barring old aw2 cheats like hitting ctrl-alt-del and then canceling that window). if there was an in-game control that allowed warp on command, you'd see level buffs doing it. and if you were getting real warps, you'd be seeing beacon flashes and other planes warping in the distance.
now, in the particular case of rolling fws... this cannot be a real warp for the above reasons. there is no setting in fws to make them appear 'warpy'. hence, the problem is in your fe, specifically it's drawing of the fw as it does a simple barrel roll that is neither shanken nor stirred. problems with the smoothness of high speed objects, or objects changing aspect rapidly, are frame rate problems. and this particular frame rate problem only occurs at short range, when more details of the target appear and these details take up a relatively large part of the screen, so they require more pixel changes.
so instead of looking for a 'roll rate limiter', i suggest you lower your resolution, switch to 16-bit, and/or disable palletized textures. limit frame rate to 45 if you've got a p4. those video options really do exist. also make sure you've got the latest video drivers and use cacheman. those last 2 things cured all fps problems for me and allowed me to go back to 1600x1200x32bit with none of the so-called 'warp rolls'.
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Stick stirring is a way that some pilots have found to be the perfect defensive.
Kweassa: Its the 1st effect in your list. the second one is a perfectly sound ACM manouver.
"a) the defender wildly shakes his stick left and right, almost near the verge of getting that "don't move your stick so rapidly", so on the attacker's FE, something goes wrong concerning net lag and it looks like the target is performing weird moves.."
Yes, those weird moves I oftenly see as the plane flying in midair with sudden loss of speed, spinning wildly on its own axis while flying in the OPPOSITE direction of its roll. Hitting that spinning plane is useless since its just a ghost, the real plane has moved either left or right, above or below you.. and you lose that engagement very quickly.
I dont believe its FPS hit that causes it, the stick stir effect can be seen from far and from extreme close range, if it was fps it'd happen constantly at a predictable range. And its not lag either, lag behaves instantly in a ZIP, it doesnt leave planes doing fluid, odd manouvers. Even a plane that discoes does not behave like a stick stirrer.
I also believe that the pilot should also be modeled into the game. I really dont think a pilot can pull 6'gs and strain himself pulling/pushing a ww2 controls in his fighter and not get exhausted... or be able to snap his neck 360 in the middle of a 7g rolling loop.
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Widewing, there's no "g-effect" as it is generally understood here on the BBS and in the AH game. That is, no grayouts/blackouts/redouts.
Yeah, I'll agree there's some minimal g in an aileron roll... but I'll still maintain that it wouldn't be enough to bother programming into this context.
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Well, I've certainly seen masters of the "floppy fish". Not every one does it though and usually, when you do eventually shoot them down, it's a name you've seen before doing the same maneuvers.
Using Bulletheads explanation though, wouldn't I see almost everyone do it when I get close?
However, I'm openminded enough that I'm certainly going to try Bullet's suggestions and see if I notice a difference.
Bullet, for those of us not so technologically advanced, how about a simple explanation of what cacheman is going to do for us in AH and what else it might effect outside of AH? Thx.
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Originally posted by Bullethead
i just love it when dweebs are so set in their misconceptions. they refuse to question themselves and thus never see their mistakes. hence, more kills for me :cool:
look. i'll try and make this simple.... warps come from the internet, somewhere between you and the host and the other players. but the internet doesn't give a rip what the nme plane is doing. to the internet, it's all just a stream of data to be moved along, regardless of whether the nme is flying level or maneuvering. and all the data does is ride along. it contains no commands that tell some random part of the internet carefully and sneakily to introduce warps in the data dealing with only the particular nme plane you're after.
in sum, warps are totally independent of what planes do (barring old aw2 cheats like hitting ctrl-alt-del and then canceling that window). if there was an in-game control that allowed warp on command, you'd see level buffs doing it. and if you were getting real warps, you'd be seeing beacon flashes and other planes warping in the distance.
now, in the particular case of rolling fws... this cannot be a real warp for the above reasons. there is no setting in fws to make them appear 'warpy'. hence, the problem is in your fe, specifically it's drawing of the fw as it does a simple barrel roll that is neither shanken nor stirred. problems with the smoothness of high speed objects, or objects changing aspect rapidly, are frame rate problems. and this particular frame rate problem only occurs at short range, when more details of the target appear and these details take up a relatively large part of the screen, so they require more pixel changes.
so instead of looking for a 'roll rate limiter', i suggest you lower your resolution, switch to 16-bit, and/or disable palletized textures. limit frame rate to 45 if you've got a p4. those video options really do exist. also make sure you've got the latest video drivers and use cacheman. those last 2 things cured all fps problems for me and allowed me to go back to 1600x1200x32bit with none of the so-called 'warp rolls'.
By all means, come kill me, lol.
Yeah, I'm familiar with all that net stuff. I kinda have to be. You see, I'm a network engineer so's they learned me that thar net lingo stuff.
You're right Toad. BH's explanation would affect "ALL" a/c, not just the high roll rate aircraft. As I stated before, not all a/c warp on my FE. His theory holds no water.
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Bulltethead.. you are totally off base.
Find out how fast an aircraft's roll rate is. Find out how often aircraft position is updated. Find out exactly what is sent pertaining to position (x,y,z coord.. heading... acceleration... control surface positions... speed... orientation... what else?). Now think about how someone rapidly moving his controls would cause jumpy motion in a rendered aircraft .
Then, and only then, will you be able to get a clue.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Aside from just plain makin toejam up as yah go along to help fan the flames Sachs, why not re-read the thread.
Nobodys squeaking about a split s.
LOL you honestly are a little strung right now. If that is stirring the thread then you guys have thin skin.
What we're squeaking about is the diddlyin fishy-floppy gamey bellybutton stick yanking and warp flogging being perpetrated by dwezils and idiots. It's not just FW's.. its all planes that do this, but it so happens that the 190's high roll rate make propogation of this panzie assed gamey manuver even easier. Whats even more interesting is the commentary from quality pilots that prefer LW rides that have noted it, and deplore its use just like I do.
Have yet to see a flopping 190 but I have seen it in other planes, and some by these so called "Quality pilots". Its a game if you can't kill them when they do it thats your problem.
However, if you choose to jerk and twich and flog and yank and tromp and twirl till somebody else comes to save yer worthless hide, hey go right the diddly ahead. I'm sure you'll have earned the respect you so rightiously deserve from your adversary in the process.
Your right my hide is worthless, didn't know human skin was selling above 2 dollars these days. I fly 190's and I fly well lets see all LW aircraft. I don't use this stick stirring phenom, and where in my post did I say I used it? Keep using those big swear words (I hear people like that now).
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I've seen it occasionally, probably even done it once or twice. Still not sure exactly how people do it, I couldn't do it intentionally if I wanted to. I think you have to have a bad connection to do it right, I'm not sure. It is a pretty gamey tactic to use, that is for sure. Anyway, I've nothing worthwhile to contribute to the conversation, carry on.
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you are fediddleing worthless sachs just fly level and let umm shoot ya down.
when 190d9 arent runnin were floppin..............
This is pretty a much a bs thread. Every plane in here gets gamed. 190s roll well buts its only ok if ya dont roll too much cause your fe cant handle?
How the fek do warp roll?
The stall flop warp is 50 times worse then that. F6fs live off of that as well as p47d11s. Spit fires that just pull their stick into there belly should suffer from gs more then a rolin fw but I aint see ya post about it..........
Whine of the month here
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LOL, that cant be treu.
people thinking simple rolls would cause microwarps?
The funniest thing is, i have killed many many FW lately, A or D, and they all used roll to defend, but NOONE of em ever warped while rolling. I could always follow them, guess were they would be and kill them when the just straightened out a bit.
But stick stirring i have seen too lately, P38, P51, Tiffies and Spits just microwarping like mad cows. And those guys did impressive things this way. A tiffie with a 180 degree roll in one forth of a sec. a P38 reversing in the horizontal under a half sec. those were things to squeak about, not the freaking roll rate of the FW.
The best thing is, those stirrers seem never to get a "dont move your controls..." message, but me while zooming up and wackeling my wings a bit (really a bit) to give no stable target, get it. That is BS.
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Anyone have a good film showing someone warp rolling? I've seen a few different kinds of microwarps while on someone's 6 and I'm not quite sure what constitutes real "warp rolling" or stick stirring.
One situation is when i see a guy with his nose pointing left and obliquely up, frozen in midair, then half a second later he is some distance to the right with his plane frozen again, pointing in a completely different direction. Is this what is referred as "floppy fish"? At least its damn hard to hit.
Another thing I saw once while following a p51 ( a good pilot with a familiar name i just can't come remember for some reason) was that the pony would reverse his turn insanely fast in a horizontal scissors. I put that one down to him probably using the snap roll at the stall effectively, but how is it generally viewed?
A third type of microwarp I often see on tight turning planes where they sorta "flop" a bit and then continue the original turn. That I always thought was the plane stalling a bit but recovering quickly.
Please, if anyone recognizes those situations, tell me are they considered stick stirring or just legitimate moves that look different through the internet? The only one I personally had problems with was the first example, but can that be also a result of bad connects and slow computers?
Lapa
PS. If anyone has seen me warprolling/stickstirring, tell me when and what was I flying, I have never been sure whether my evasives (well those few that work anyway) are actually good ACM or just blind luck.
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Seems the LostWaffles have a bit of a problem grasping reality right now.
Or atleast taking the time to understand that some of us actually do know what we are talking about. Some of us that have been following HiTech around for years and understand about the supplementary code built into AH and WB that guesstimates the aircraft's next position based on control inputs, speed, heading, etc.
Now here's the deal, information can only go so fast. When you have several people on the screen you are getting multiple lines of data for several different people on your screen. 1 on 1 with no one around, well the floppy fish and limpwristed shuffle aren't as apparent. But I'll be damned if it doesn't exist when there's 30+ people around you furballing or attacking a nearby field.
When you traverse your joystick, rudder and kick your throttle forward and backward as fast as possible without achieving the "you are moving your controls too fast", I guarantee you a box of donuts to other people your aircraft appears to be moving in specific direction but is rotating around the center of the aircraft doing all sorts of funky things.
If you take your joystick, and are in a 190, and rapidly roll from one direction to the other without completing a 360 degree roll, your 190 is only updating 1/4 of the turn each time to the other guy's FE. So instead of a smooth roll you are going from level wings, to side ways, to level, to inverted and back again. Not in a smooth motion, but like you are watching it through a slide show. This is not frame rate related either BulletHead, I don't know where you got that idea from. This is entirely network related since there is not a constant data stream from your end to every one elses there is a huge amount of updates that simply do not exist because the internet and your DSL, cable or other fast connection would not be able to handle it. You would need a T1 to get updates on every player in the game in a constant data stream to negate the need for a netcode algorithm to guesstimate an aircraft's position.
Yes, many planes do it. 109s do it. F4Us do it. No one is denying that. But the fact that 190s are typically the biggest example of it, because they did it in WB and they do it here, then those are the ones that catch people's eyes. I fly 190s, and I've seen it happen. I've even done it because I was stalling and correcting myself very quickly. It ain't exactly a mythical occurance, like finding a leprechaun and a pot of gold. It's very real, and it happens with 190s the most because they have the fastest roll rate.
-SW
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well some people seem to be always right :rolleyes:
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Stain, i too fly the 190 most of the time.
But from my experiences, noone has a prob to follow my rolls. I seem not be warpy/laggy/or what u wanna call it at all.
And also from my experience fighting 190s i really never saw one rolling "unsmooth", even when the did a real quick left-right 180 roll, i could see it.
Flip floping i saw with other planes, not on all, but most of the time on the more popular ones, were the guy flying it seems to know that when movin his stick so and so, on my FE he will just jump from left to right.
And i still wonder why AH uses a 4 times a sec or whatever refresh rate.
I played FA for 15 month, and the game never had any problems related to fast movements. There warps were warps, so a plane did i.e. a jump of 400 yrds or was constantly jumping.
FA uses a kind of constant refresh technic, that really makes the game smooth.
The term flip-flopper i 1st ran into when starting AH, in FA there simply werent such incidents.
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Maik you think we're wrong? Hey, fine. Don't believe me, you know EXACTLY who you CAN get his information from. Go right on ahead and email HiTech himself. Or Pyro. Or, well anyone that knows the AH code at HTC. I think you'll be surprised.
Naudet, not _ALL_ 190s do it. That's the point, some people do it and some don't. It ain't exactly rocket science to figure this one out. We aren't talking about refresh rates either, we're talking about data transfer. It can't keep up with the roll rate.
If you roll to the right, 180 degrees, then reverse to the left without quickly reversing to the right again, then you will not have so much of a pronounced warp between one angle of the wings to the other. If you roll 90 degress left, then go right for 90degrees then go back left as fast as you can, your vector is not updated fast enough and thus you can use this to your advantage.
And to say that you don't see it on 190s but you see it on other planes, well it's quite obvious where you are coming from. I see it on all planes, but 190s *CAN* do it the best. And if a person wants to use it to his advantage, he can and will.
-SW
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Maik!!! Ya still following this thread???? I gave up already!!! :rolleyes:
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These types of "warps" are not caused buy netlag.. they are created buy the server "reading ahead" (which it constantly does) of what you are doing so that it decreases the packet size and makes it run "smoother".. It certainly cannot tell the future so it is making educated guesses where you should be at a given time.
Now when the server thinks you should be at point B and your actualy at point A you warp to point A from point B (where you were until the server refreshed).
When the LuftWeiny uses this exploit this is exactly what happens. It cannont keep up with these chaotic movements and reads ahead putting him the wrong posistion, then putting him back where he should be, rinse and repeat. All decent rolling AC are capable of this im sure, but one that rolls the fastest is naturaly the best at it.
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Naudet, SW, I think there is some smoothing code in place to show an estimate of the planes movement between the updates which happen at x (no idea how many) times per second. If there was nothing, all maneuvering would be warpy with those sharp transitions from one state to another. The warps we see happen when the smoothing code's guess is wrong at the next update. At that point if the plane's current state does not match the prediction of the smoothing algorithm, the position is simply changed on your FE => a small warp happens.
The above is my guess anyway, what the code really does may be more simple or more complex, no one knows except the guys who wrote it.
Lapa
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My apologies Sachs fer hoppin on yeah with the hobnailed boots.
Seems like folks immediately polarize themseleves to either the LW side or opportunist side.. whelp;this issue belongs to all of us, equally. Yes, 190's can propagate the warp roll evasive faster and easier than SOME planes, but they by no means have an exclusive on this gamey tactic.
Denial ain't just an Egyptian creek.
It happens, it exists, HTC knows of it, all that I'd like to see is the damn thing fixed.
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Lapa, you got it. That was what I was looking for, there's a smoothing code algorithm that is there to reduce the warping between aircraft updates. It can be gamed, much like other things in this game, if you know how it works and have a plane with very fast control responses.
-SW
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Ppls, Ppls, Ppls. Break it up! No fiting here!.
I will not hafe my ppls fiting each other meanlike.
NOW, having said those ones, I will also say this too, The ME190 is not a warp plane like you other ones say. NO, it is not. Plainly NO. Now, brake it up, before i Must take action against your ones.
!
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Look... it happens. When a FW is moving violently he is not where your FE says he is. I imagine that it is as Amon says and has to do with the smoothing code.
It would appear that in AH, just like in WB it is the roll rate of the FW that is "just over" the limit. Not saying the rate is right or wrong, just that it is "just" high enough to defeat the code. Others can do it if there is some problem with framerate or lag but the FW does it inherently.. The FW is capable of defeating the code itself.
The fact that this happens is not lost on anyone. It is annoying and it is even more annoying when LW guys come on and say it can't or doesn't happen. It is no fun to waste E or bullets on a warpy FW. Anyone who claims it is not happening is either a liar or unable to grasp what he sees or... Has a very crappy computer and thinks "everyone does it".
I believe that the warps are just a way to let people in the arenas hate LW planes. The denial on the BB is a way to let literate people hate LW planes and .....I believe that HTC should make LW planes smell bad so that blind people could hate em too.
lazs
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Originally posted by air_reaper
Said it before and will say it again. The anti stick stirring code needs to be tighter. Let the fukin idiots piss and moan.
here here :) and apache i got real worried that my moves, whilst being normal my end, might through net lag/warp be percieved as you described when i read this.My first thought was 'oh no dont say im only doing well because of this'.When you mentioned my name and said you'd never seen it I was relieved to say the least.
Ive only just recently got the roll/pull evasive manouver down to a reasonable art ;), the forced overshoot is sometimes the 190s only option.But after looking at my film of times when i use it, it isnt really that fast manouver.Mine is more of a barrel roll which,whilst reducing airspeed increases and decreases in size as i adjust my path around the enemies flightpath, whos on my 6.
Please remember anyone who posts in this sort of thread that most LW flyers are competitors and not cheats.If we were to discover that the only reason our chosen aircraft was working for us was some unfair advantage/net flaw we wouldnt fly them as im sure most other LW pilots would agree.
I see this fish flopping, and also the tumbleing/spinning followed by warp move which ive seen a 205,p47,la7 and others use and I just dont understand why anyone would even want to win this way.They learn nothing about their aircraft,theres no sense of 'winning' when theres no skill or thinking involved is there?
Im just glad that its not something i encounter all the time.
Whether the increase in its use is due to the huge influx or the new servers I dont know and so I reserve judgement until the new servers come online.
I appeal to all players who use it and they KNOW they are doing it to just try different aircraft manouvers and learn about these planes.If you find youre not interested in the real planes and how they flew then honestly, what are you flying a WW2 sim for? theres a million fantasy games out there for you!
spaceship fighter games where warping is part of the game lol :)
all fair and good sports, the warp/stick stirrers :D
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Originally posted by hazed-
here here :) and apache i got real worried that my moves, whilst being normal my end, might through net lag/warp be percieved as you described when i read this.My first thought was 'oh no dont say im only doing well because of this'.When you mentioned my name and said you'd never seen it I was relieved to say the least.
Ive only just recently got the roll/pull evasive manouver down to a reasonable art ;), the forced overshoot is sometimes the 190s only option.But after looking at my film of times when i use it, it isnt really that fast manouver.Mine is more of a barrel roll which,whilst reducing airspeed increases and decreases in size as i adjust my path around the enemies flightpath, whos on my 6.
Please remember anyone who posts in this sort of thread that most LW flyers are competitors and not cheats.If we were to discover that the only reason our chosen aircraft was working for us was some unfair advantage/net flaw we wouldnt fly them as im sure most other LW pilots would agree.
I see this fish flopping, and also the tumbleing/spinning followed by warp move which ive seen a 205,p47,la7 and others use and I just dont understand why anyone would even want to win this way.They learn nothing about their aircraft,theres no sense of 'winning' when theres no skill or thinking involved is there?
Im just glad that its not something i encounter all the time.
Whether the increase in its use is due to the huge influx or the new servers I dont know and so I reserve judgement until the new servers come online.
I appeal to all players who use it and they KNOW they are doing it to just try different aircraft manouvers and learn about these planes.If you find youre not interested in the real planes and how they flew then honestly, what are you flying a WW2 sim for? theres a million fantasy games out there for you!
spaceship fighter games where warping is part of the game lol :)
all fair and good sports, the warp/stick stirrers :D
hazed. Yeah, I singled you out because you've kicked my arse fair & square. That move you made on me the other night was beautiful. You flew the plane. You didn't game the game. Nice post on your part also.
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Group Hug!
:p
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(http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/contrib/edoom/theyareontome.gif)
-SW
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I just reread my last post here......
i dont deny it happens but "how do ya do it"
simple aileron rolls and quick reversals?
I like haze use a barrel roll to cause an overshot (depends on speed of the attacker)
I've have seen micro warps but usually I cut throttle and kill um.
Anyway I guess we could have control delays like wbs.....
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rofl SW. Exactly what I was thinking. Just wait til Lazs (http://media01.devnull.com/up-men-00287.jpg) finds this thread. He's gonna bust Apache upside the noggin for 'sociating with Luftwaffles. Apache's gonna be walkin funny after Lazs (http://media01.devnull.com/up-men-00287.jpg) gets aholt uh him.
:)
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Originally posted by hblair
rofl SW. Exactly what I was thinking. Just wait til Lazs (http://media01.devnull.com/up-men-00287.jpg) finds this thread. He's gonna bust Apache upside the noggin for 'sociating with Luftwaffles. Apache's gonna be walkin funny after Lazs (http://media01.devnull.com/up-men-00287.jpg) gets aholt uh him.
:)
Lol, that sawed off, bald headed little feller? I ain't a skeert a him ah tells ya! I ain't!!
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No more easy kills for Apache, I bet Lazs won't drag for him after this! :)
-SW
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They are all cheaters and HTC needs to make FW's smell bad so that blind people can hate em too.
lazs