Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: K West on January 15, 2002, 11:05:56 AM
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No limit on choices. Please pick what you think would help AH become a
more realistic flight/aircombat "sim."
I did not bring up anything on ICONS or RADAR as those horses are so
dead they've fossilized. HTC does not appear to be inclined to change
or improve them anyway. I also left out flight and engine management
as they are seperate high- realism topics and warrant thier own polls
- if anyone ever wanted to do one that is. Same with the collisions as
well as friendly fire/kill shooter subjects.
So here are several realism requests that I recall being made time and
again. Not only by myself but after a quick search and peruse of the
GAMEPLAY forumn it seems also by many other subscribers also.
* Remove the ability to use any auto-trim while experiencing the wounded
pilot effect.
* Remove the ability to use any auto-trim while in a red/black-out.
* Remove the auto-retracting flaps from all aircraft
* Remove ability to use the AH radio (text anbd vox) while in a parachute
* Remove the ammo counters on planes that did not have them. However
allow the user a choice to have the last 50 rounds be tracers or ammo.
* Remove the ability to go straight from a 7 o'clock view to a 5 o'clock
view by way of the six o'clock position.
* Remove excessive "moonlight glare" inside cockpits (see cockpit night-
lighting addition below)
* Add night lighting in aircraft. Manually controlled (on/off/intensity)
by the "pilot"
* Addition of random gun freezing feature for aircraft flying over 25k.
100% over 30k if the pilot does not test fire them every x minutes.
* Addition of a pilot stamina/fatigue model from repetative and
excessive G's and loss of strenght due to rolling/diving/blacking/
reding out, etc etc .
* Addition of metric guages for aircraft that had them
* Addition of seperate firing control for 20/30mm cannon on 190's
* Add a permanent squelch feature. Not realism related but I stuck this one
in anyway! :)
* Add folding wings and a visual landing gear hook on naval aircraft that
had them.
* Change clouds so enemy cons and dots cannot be seen when flying inside
them. I can with a Diamond Viper TNT2 Ultra. The whole sky turns gray
but I can see all icons plainly still.
* Change the "wind" feature to be more realistic.
* Change (add to?) the FM so that there is a realistic limitation on
sustained inverted flight due to a lack of engine lubrication.
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Obviously the poll only allowed me 10 items to ask about when I had far more. Well. It's a start :)
Westy
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missing "all of the above" .
ALL OF THE ABOVE.
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My 'bad.' I just edited my post to bring up to the top of it that ALL choices are enabled to be voted on. Choose as many, or as few, as one wants. That way if a voter did not feel it was an appropriate addition for realism then they could pass it by. This would in effect really be a nay vote for any feature.
As it is only 15 out of 53 viewers of this poll even voted. IMO that say more to me about any desire (or lack of) for any future realistic features additions than the choices made by the minority who did vote. Since none of these are ultra-realism features, like icons, engine management, radar, It is a bit disheartening to think that more folks would want to keep the status quo as regards features in AH than not.
Will have to see how it goes over the next several days.
Westy
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You left one out.....engine damage resulting in immediate reduced engine output.
You get my vote on a lot of the others. :)
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Westy,
I agree with the 6 view looking, but if you do that, you also have to remove the 'snap view' (similar to AW) feature that many guys like to use.
Maybe it's not snap view, but I know there is one for instant view switching.
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You left out
"None of this stuff really bothers me much. I just let HTC do their thing."
Or maybe that's what the guys who view but don't vote are saying?
;)
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You are right Toad, none of it really bothers me much. However, I would like to see most all of the above features added.
If, as paying customers, we want something and it is resonable, why not let the creators know?
My thinking is that HT and crew do plan to build in some more interesting "realism" items, when time allows and its appropriate.
F.
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I agree Midnight. Past implementations elsewhere worked ok, problem was disagreements on the speed a pilots neck, head and upper torso could move at.
Thanks EddieK! I though of that of that also but l figured it could wait untill someone did a poll on damge model or engine management. As it is I wasn't able to add in a bunch as the limit is 10 items to vote on.
And thank you too Toad ;) I'd figured in for that response under the "status quo" part of my post. As well others such as 'Oh. It's that idjit Westy again" "I don't like polls so I won't click on anything!" "I don't care for the selection he listed at all" "Cheesuz I hate this UBB. Accidental stop on this topic. Don't mind if I just drive on thru!" as well as folks who though this was a dating post for people of Polish extraction. :D
I'm honestly not bothered, nor much, by the absence of these things. Otherwise, well, I'd have left much like Jekyl had to use one real person example. However seeing how HTC does consistantly react to community input it behooves us as users, players and subscribers to offer our two cents worth and ideas does it not?
I'm not saying AH would not be a great place for some real fun virtual aircombat if they had not. They're a fantastic team of people with a great product. and I think they "know" what to do and where they are going. However many, MANY features that have been added over the past couple of years are directly attibutable to player input and requests. I figure a poll is a very easy way to guage how others feel about these things without asking for them to reply via a full blown post explaining (and sometimes defending) thier thoughts for thier choices. All votes are anonymous after all.
How did you vote btw? :)
Westy
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Well, I'm all for the customers speaking their minds. We agree there.
So, undoubtedly you agree that there should be a "choice" that says to HTC "Don't sweat it. You're doing real well from my point of view. Keep on working on whatever you feel is the highest priority at the present time before you worry about the small stuff like these other choices in this poll."
Because we both want everyone to be heard, right? All the points of view, all HTC's little children. :)
So, indeed, let's poll for stuff like this... and give those of us who think it's going pretty well under HTC's direction a voice as well, eh?
(BTW, I voted for the permanent squelch. But I'd have also voted for "All is well" had it been in there. :D)
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"So, indeed, let's poll for stuff like this... and give those of us who think it's going pretty well under HTC's direction a voice as well, eh?"
That's a seperate poll. Don't hijack mine!!! I simply asked for folks to please pick what (they) think would help AH become a more realistic flight/aircombat "sim."
Feel free of course to try a poll. Maybe sSomething along the lines of ??...
Please vote for one:
*HTC, polls these are expressions of player wishes for changes and/or additions to AH so please consider them
*All is hunky dory imo. HTC would do just fine without any outside suggestions so no further input needed nor warranted on my (our) part.
:)
Westy
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So, undoubtedly you agree that there should be a "choice" that says to HTC "Don't sweat it. You're doing real well from my point of view. Keep on working on whatever you feel is the highest priority at the present time before you worry about the small stuff like these other choices in this poll."
Exactly. Unless, of course, some of the struff on this poll are high on HT's priority list.:D
F.
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Westy, Theres only one thing left (HTC fixed most of them)that REALLY bothers me in AH. That would be the lighting. IMO, water should reflect the sun MORE so than land. IMO, I feel it's always a foggy day and not really sunny. I would like to see the lighting turned up a few notches, I'm not talking resetting my monitor.
I have a desk calender with what i am talking about
(http://www.graphixone.net/images/l.jpg)
NUTTZ
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"I have a desk calender with what i am talking about"
I know what you mean and you're right. There's not much of a reflection from the sun at all when looking down or across the water.
Added to THE LIST :) !
Westy
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I want a faster 51D...not for everyone, just me:)
BTW....me thinks this polling thingie is fun...has great potential:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg )
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Westy,
a question and a comment...
on pilot stamina/fatigue model - how is this modelled? Gamers' stamina might be enough :D This game takes a lot of concentration and lord knows if ya had a bad day at work and your concentration is hosed, ya don't fly well...
on ability of using radio in a chute - people using RW will have an advantage over this one.
Just thoughts...
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I would select x)All Of the Above....
except this one thing: "* Addition of a pilot stamina/fatigue model from repetative and
excessive G's and loss of strenght due to rolling/diving/blacking/
reding out, etc etc . "
That's just not realistic. We've had pilots (RL) that have told us they go through acrobatics in the air and still don't get very tired.
-SW
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Are they doing barrel rolls in 9,000 pound plus aircraft flying at 250mph?
I undertstand how acrobat could do loops, rolls, twisting stalls etc etc without tiring. owever those planes are lightly powered, fly much less than and weight a fraction of what a WWII aircraft did. I've read several accounts of how pilots were dog tired and drendhing in a sweat (from the fear and adrenalyne rush also I'm sure) after dogfighting. I'll try and find them to post.
But the suggestion (this is where I get to answer you two with one post :) ) has been more about fatigue and stamina in relation to constant blacking/redding out. AW modelled this pretty well. The more you blacked out, for example, the longer the black out lasted and the quicker it's onset when someone was constalty blakcing out very qucikcly and consequtively. Constant blacking out and emmediatley recovering, over and over very quicklyy, isn't normal.
"FD" as for RW you're quite right. But it's a lot better than everyone being able to get reports from a bailer. Right now I shoot them if they are at a base I'm defending. If they did not have the means to use AHvoice or the text radio then I'd save my ammo and also folks would hear a lot less gripes about chute shooting. :)
Westy
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I'm not gonna name names, because I don't remember. I think it was Toad though who said it. Might not be correct tho.
-SW
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I voted for most of the stuff, but I think that no radio while in a chute one is a bad idea. Not that it would affect me at all;), but I like talking to and insulting my squaddies while flying...that's part of what this game is about.
SOB
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Well blacking out itself is simply losing vision while retaining control. You'd have to have a strong heart and be very fit to keep on doing it, but since the airforces of the world require you to be fit and in shape (Helmutt Lipfert required his pilots to do pushups/situps/workout every day and once before a mission) then the effect that we would experience would be 10fold over what a pilot experiences. Especially if he does it 3 times a flight, for 1,000+ missions (German pilots lets say), there body would be adapted to it and would adjust blood level/pressure accordingly. The heart would also strengthen to send more blood to the brain/eyes.
It isn't normal, but the human body can do a lot of things that aren't "normal".
-SW
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"Especially if he does it 3 times a flight, for 1,000+ missions "
I mean in one engagment; dive, pull up sharp , twist, roll down hard flat turn hard left slit S, pull up hard again nose over but pull up hard break right and down fast pull up hard ... etc etc.
All those maneuvers and the redouts/blackouts within seconds of each other would have take a fantastic physical toll on any pilot. But in AH you can do all that and more.
SOB, I actually though of the FDB's (who doesn;t when the topic of shooting and chutes comes up! :) ) and I figured you all would quickly find a way around that short term obstacle ;)
Westy
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AW modelled this pretty well.
Oh that! Actually, I see this already modelled in AH. The longer duration you black out, the longer it takes to recover. Although, they are not the same and on AH it is not as penalizing as it was on AW.
Right now I shoot them (chutes)
Westy shoots chutes? ;)
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The onset of a blackout/greyout might be a millisecond faster, but you aren't just gonna suddenly give out, fly straight and let the other guy shoot you down.
When your life is on the line, the adrenaline will pump you beyond super-human and you'll not be tired until after-the-fact. See where I'm going? I think that creating a stamina/fatigue model for the pilot is just an artificial way of forcing guys to fly more your way than flying to the best of their abilities... especially since in RL you fight until you are dead or the other guy is- either way you aren't going to be tired until well after-the-fact..
-SW
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IMO we aren't modeling pilots here.. we're modeling planes.
The pilot is YOU.. if you're tired, you fly tired
etc etc...
the back/red out and head shake are the only viable alternatives IMO.
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Originally posted by Stain
The onset of a blackout/greyout might be a millisecond faster, but you aren't just gonna suddenly give out, fly straight and let the other guy shoot you down.
When your life is on the line, the adrenaline will pump you beyond super-human and you'll not be tired until after-the-fact.
This is true even when your life isn't on the line. :) I've done some Fighter Pilots USA stuff and fought HT in one of their tournaments. We had an EARLY morning (like 9:00 AM - maybe even earlier) sortie after a late late night of drinking with the pilots & Bob Shaw. We were all pretty bleary eyed and tired to begin with, but as soon as the fight's on the adreniline kicks in so hard that all fatigue is gone.
Despite some heavy maneuvering and alot of time pulling serious G's (I blacked out after an extended time at 5.5 - 6 G's with no suit. My pilot said he was very surprised that I was able to remain concious as long as I had. :) Practicing my anti-G exercises certainly helped.) neither of us had any lack of energy while in the air.
Of course, after we got back down and the adreniline rush subsuded I passed out on a couch for a coupla hours. :)
FWIW, HT won our 2 outta 3 engagements. Both times by me hitting the hard deck before him. Niether of us got more than a snap shot on the other and the fights all basically ended up as vertical circles with us both looking out the top of our cockpits at each other in 4+ G turns. (HT said his neck hurt for weeks afterwards. :) ) Our circles worked lower & lower and both times I got to the hard deck first. :( This was in 1998, and HT went on to win the competition without much of a battle after I was out. I told 'em they shoulda held the best matchup in the middle of the day when the crowds were there. :)
D
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SW and Doberman I understand where you're coming from. But rest assured there's no hidden agenda to make anyone fly "my" way. This is a feature many folks feel is something missing and have asked for several times. I simply concur as it is somehting I've read in several pilot anecdotes - re: their aircombat experience. Perhaps it is something that did not happen much and in reality doesn't warrant modelling in a sim. I'm still going to try and find those anecdotes :)
Wolfgang. If HTC simply models only aircraft then why not ask then to toss out the head bobbing, the pilot wounded effect as well as the red and black outs? I just believe if you're going to have it then really do it and do it well.
Westy
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Originally posted by K West
I mean in one engagment; dive, pull up sharp , twist, roll down hard flat turn hard left slit S, pull up hard again nose over but pull up hard break right and down fast pull up hard ... etc etc.
All those maneuvers and the redouts/blackouts within seconds of each other would have take a fantastic physical toll on any pilot. But in AH you can do all that and more.
Westy
Westy, not picking at you but have you ever read any WW2 Fighter Pilot memoirs that described a fight like that?
I've read a bunch, and I've never seen a fight described that was anything like that.
My take is that we can do things that just couldn't really be done in a WW2 cockpit OR for various reasons just WEREN'T done (not that they couldn't be done.. but weren't.) I don't think fatigue was the reason though.
As to the other thing, considering all these polls...
Let me ask a question.....
How many of the poll-takers that are listing all these things that need to be improved immediately have taken the time to either call the HTC offices and/or E-Mail them and say "Thanks... this is a truly great game" ?
Catching them in the arena and saying "WTG" is not what I'm talking about.
They get PLENTY of criticism, some of it quite heated... and we all know that.
How many of yas have taken the time to make them feel truly appreicated?
That's why I'd like to see that last option/pick I mentioned. Balance. Let them know that not everyone is hopping up and down on one foot waiting for these "gotta have" items.
:)
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Toad, I think this poll ended up meandering down a side ally it never had been intended to go to. This was not any kind of poll created by me to express any displeasure nor an indication of being disgruntled.
I thought the polls were a nice new feature that would allow us customers one means of indicating to HTC our feelings on many different things.
My next was going to be "Ginger or Mary-Ann" I bet it would have recieved a far higgher response from viewers than the %15 percent this poll and many other averaged. :)
So take the 85% who did not respond for whatever reason as being the majority who say, things are fine; they don't care or they do not want any of these realism features.
Just don't take it for more than it was worth please. It was ever meant to be disparaging to HTC.
I can't speak for anyone else about passing on Kudos, Thanks or other words of appreciation to HTC for thier work AH. But I do it quite often and never miss a chance to. Be it a new feature, an old one I'm still impressed with, new aircraft and new art.
I just haven't sent any "graft" yet as I'm not sure how to hide such a thing from the wifey. ;)
Westy
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I want windsocks at the airfields....:)
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What?!!!
You don't like AH just as it is?
What the hell is wrong with you??
And who do you think you are suggesting anything??
;)
BTW, the poll would indicate that of the respondants three items stick out like a sore thumb.
* Remove the auto-retracting flaps.
* Change the way the clouds permit you to still see icons thousands of feet away while buried in them.
* Remove "moonlight glare" inside cockpits & add nighlighting
and
* Add a permanent squelch feature.
Westy
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Originally posted by Toad
Westy, not picking at you but have you ever read any WW2 Fighter Pilot memoirs that described a fight like that?
I've read a bunch, and I've never seen a fight described that was anything like that.
if im not mistaken hes not describing a actual WWII conflict, but a dogfight in AH.
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Thank you Amon :) I was. But in relation to that I was thinking of one particular WWII dogfight, out of several I remember reading about, between a P-51 driver against a good 109 flyer. It was a touhg fight and the planes were whipped all over the sky. I cannot find the account and for some reason I keep thinking it was Gentile or Godfrey. But the pilot expressed how exhausted he was emotionally and physically when it was over. And I've seen that several times from acoutns of swirling dogfights in WWII.
Still looking. If only to share the story if nothing else.
Westy
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Westy:
I only responded to one of the items in your poll; the others I don't see as issues, nor have I experienced any of them.
I admit to a little disappointed in that, the things I think need adjustment, you didn't list. Hehe, but that the way of polls;)
As to pilot fatigue, I think thats a bit over the top; this is really just a game after all. If I'm fatigued I just log off and go to sleep or do something else :)
I'm more interested in things that will make the game more comfortable for me such as; improvement of the inflight map so I can read it; make the sector coordinates and field numbers more readable. I have never noticed the issue with the 6 view, nor the clouds allowing one to see through them. I can attest to that because I got bounced a month or two ago by a guy and I didnt see him at all; and I was looking. I complimented him afterward and he said..."thanks, the clouds helped a lot"
One final thought because I read about "realism" so often in here and in another sim I flew once upon a time:
if this (AH) is to be so real, and so many clamor about realism, whats the deal with the giant squid in just about every map in the game? Hmmm?:D
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Westy, is that the one where the pilot is a back-up escort for a larger formation? If this is the one, it's in the Aces Over Europe manual.
EDIT: and he was sweating profusely because his cockpit radiator was still on as the fight descended.
-SW
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Tired, sure. Adrenaline letdown, sure. Sweaty, absolutely.
I personally have just never read any account that featured the continual maneuvering and blackout/grayout/redout g-effects as Westy described them.
As I said, I think AH allows us to do things that either were probably not or could not be done in WW2 fighters.
That's all I'm saying.
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Strider, I was only able to list 10 items out of the big bunch even I'd come up with. Items such as GPS maps, 109 slats and a few others I'd not thought of or read about till after but wouldn;t be able to add them either.
As for changes to the GUI and in game interfaces. Those are not what I would have considered candidates for the category I'd given this poll. But imo they would have definately deserved a poll all of thier own. FWIW it took a long time to even get ajustable colors for the icons and things. But imo that was a direct result of players constantly asking HiTech for that feature over the past couple of years. So don't give up on the map issues. BTW, the map on your clipboard is a bmp I beleive and the numbers are just text layed onto it. There is no grid overlay on top of the arena map so perhaps a different font and color by HTC would help. Maybe not. Beware asking for changes though ;) (j/k)
As for the clouds? Maybe it's a graphics bug for only some GFX cards. But I do know that many other people can enter the cloud bank, get an all encompassing gray sky and still see the icons of other planes as plain as day. This occurs mostly in the overcast cloud formations anbd I beleive I've seen it in the white billowy ones also. I've just run into the overcast clouds more than the other type over the past few months. So his comment may have alluded to something else altogether other than what you took it for ;) But I fail to see how adding metric guages, moon glare, wind, firing buttons, removing auto-flaps, ammo counters etc etc are things that would make AH too painfully realistic. Pilot fatigue and the 7-to-5-via-6 view thing are two items that could be argued as being so.
SW, that wasn't the reference but thanks. I think I have it saved on a CD rom at home. I got a bug up my butt to find it now.
Toad, that' partially my whole my point. RL pilots did feel the effects from a bout of rigourous aircombat and without doing the crazy action I described above. Yet we can endlessly just about with no ill effect what so ever. And I see what I wrote of all the time online. However, for the sake of peace and tranquility I'll strike that item from my poll (well I would if I could so just imagine it's gone) :)
Westy
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Yeah, they felt the effects... usually well after the engagement I think. That's the adrenal letdown part.
Rare (if not non-existent) to read an account that says "I was engaged for X minutes and finally reached a point of exhaustion. I could no longer maneuver."
Also rare to read an account where anyone engaged almost continuously for an extended period as we commonly do in the game.
Just another example of why this IS NOT a simulator.
You just can't simulate the actual conditions under which these aircraft were used....there's no actual war going on with missions that must be flown and there's no penalty for or fear of death.
Heck of a great game, though. :D
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they got thanked with the electronic withdrawl every month toad. imo it is more the business' responsibility to thank its customers, not the other way around.
as for complaining, i think its necessary. unless you point out problems, they never get fixed. and htc staff really dont play the game enough anymore to know where the problems lie. hence the need for critisism.
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Zig,
I've been called "on the carpet" by lots of folks. Some guys can criticize you in such a way that you leave thanking them for their leadership and guidance. Other guys don't have that technique and you leave wanting to kick their prettythang or wanting to choke the living short out of them.
It's all in the way you do it.
Which kind of guy would you rather be?
I'd rather be the the one that gets thanked. ;)
I'll close with this observation: Nobody likes getting b*tched at all the time and everyone likes a little recognition of their efforts now and then. This BBS is pretty long on one and short on the other. I'll leave you to figure out which is which. Don't see where including an "attaboy" choice in this poll would have hurt it at all, do you?
YMMV.
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btw just for kicks i thought i would mention where i lie.
i think htcs view of a simulator is great. i have only relatively minor problems with modeling of aircraft etcera (gvs are a different story)
i think his gameplay vision is lacking. it really is only evolutionary from the revolutionary concept that the creators of air warrior had years ago.
in terms of vision, i really have to admire the guys at cornered rat. their vision was much more grand and they had much loftier ambitions. unfortunately, their ability to execute was lacking.
imo htc really needs a visionary, because while hitech and crew seem to be competant coders and certainly have the ability to execute, they lack a leader with a revolutionary gameplay concept. same old field capture model via parachutes is kiiiiiinda dated.
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Uhm, you know why the CRS model failed?
Because of this "vision"- their "vision" involved doing everything all at once rather than building it up to the point that it was their vision.. only realised.
Their failure was their vision, if they began it like HT, the wouldn't be in the state they are in now.
I notice one thing when I look back at what HTC had, and then I look at what HT&Pyro put into interviews of what they WANT to have.
The only difference seperating CRS and HTC is that HTC has a working product that will be leaps and bounds beyond where CRS will be when their currect product is finally working.
You start small and end with a big bang, don't start big because you just go out with a snap crackle pop.
-SW
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Hell Westy:
It was a good poll, and generated some informative discussion. I just get a wee bit confused, first; by so many polls, second; by what individuals see as important and unreal; and third; what about that damned Squid! :)
LOL! The first time I ran into it, I felt sure there was an nme lurking on dar in a particular sector. I wasted a lot of time searching for it, only to find the dang thing in some out of the way pond! :D
Every time I see it now, I suck my teeth and am tempted to blast it out of the water for fooling me. It is a constant reminder of having gotten fooled by a quirky aspect of the game :D
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Well. I have to admit failure for not finding what I thought would be irrefutable anecdotes that aircombat is fatiguing on the spot and not just a physical let down later and after the fact. In any of the aircombat stories I found online did I see where anyone wrote, or even wanted to admit ( :) ) that during combat their arms grew weary and the aircombat stress and physical requirements were causing them to slowly lose the ability to fly thier planes as hard as they had in the beginning of a fight.
So I'll just leave these two reports as a finale' to the topic and poll.
""...Gentile still managed to keep one jump ahead of the German, but his desperation mounted. The Hun was lathered and remorseless, having seen the American clobber the two 190 pilots, his acquaintances and perhaps his friends. He knew by now that the American with the "Donnie Boy" insignia was a superlative pilot; this was a chance to blast an American ace out of the sky without risk. He kept firing, but the American always climbed or banked just inside his line of fire. Gentile felt like giving up; he was going to be shot down anyway; it would be better to get some altitude and bail out. But he had some last words: "Horseback, Horseback! If I don't get back, tell 'em I got two 190s!"
The two fighters were flat-out on the deck, down by the railroad track, the German on the American's tail firing. The German began to close the gap. Gentile suddenly honked his ship up and stood it on his prop until it quivered and was ready to stall out. For the first time Gentile had gotten above the Hun and could have swooped down on him for a kill had his ammunition not been exhausted. Gentile had preserved himself. He had made the Hun fire all his ammunition without hitting him. The German suddenly peeled off and sulked home, his two FW comrades unavenged.
Gentile bounced down the runway at Debden. He didn't bother to gun the motor before switching it off. He was spent and worn, his very fingers heavy with weariness. The intelligence officer jumped on the wing of his plane to interrogate him. Gentile didn't
answer, just sitting in the cockpit rolling his eyes and panting."
http://www.westnet.com/~ssherman/usaaf_gentile.html
"There's one point I really want to stress- "G" forces; they're a unique experience :-) As I was midway through my third straight "rolling scissors", on the verge of losing my eyesight yet again,and realizing that I'll have to bleed off some airspeed before it will return and I can attempt to resume tracking the other aircraft, that I finally realized -holy s__t - this is _really_ _hard_ _work_! By the time we landed I was exhausted, sore, dehydrated, and my flight suit drenched with sweat. I had sore neck, back and arm muscles for the next two days. Total time aloft? Roughly50 minutes, of which maybe 10 were actually spent dogfighting.
http://www.ccnet.com/~craner/acusa.html
Westy
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Back in WBīs i liked the fact that when you inverted certain ACīs the engine would cut out, (think it was on the early war ACīs).
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What I find amusing is the fact that most of the guys asking for more complex and difficult realism aren't worth a damn even with what we got.
lazs
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Originally posted by K West
Well. I have to admit failure for not finding what I thought would be irrefutable anecdotes that aircombat is fatiguing on the spot and not just a physical let down later and after the fact.
If memory serves, Sakai's account of his fight with the Hellcats over Iwo Jima mentions that his arm was getting tired and he was worried that, for that reason, he soon wouldn't be able to roll out of the Hellcats' way.
Caiden's "Black Thursday" (worthless for many reasons, but not this one) and Ambrose's recent book on George McGovern both mention how tiring it was to fly (respectively) B-17s and B-24s, particularly in formation.
I imagine that it was simply quite rare for a fighter pilot to be involved in a continuous dogfight for as long as Sakai was, and that's why you don't have more examples like this.
- oldman
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"What I find amusing is the fact that most of the guys asking for more complex and difficult realism aren't worth a damn even with what we got."
So just what is your point?
Thanks Oldman :) That's one account I'd forgotten about as it has been a long time since I'd read his book.
Rgr that Maniac! I hope it's modelled in those early war planes that experienced that problem.
Westy
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Have you ever noticed that most people ask for changes that they think would benefit them more than the average sim pilot in here? For example, in real life I am a navigator, so personally I would like to see the moving map icon taken away, and everybody forced to actually navigate! It would be easy for me, but I imagine that many would find it frustrating. This is how it goes with many of these things. People that trim manually, often suggest that autotrim be done away with, a move that wouldnt affect them, but would cause the people that currently dont use manual trim to have problems for a little while, at least until they learned how.
Nevertheless, while I understand the point of those that like some crutches for gameplay purposes (ID tags, moving map, autotrim, etc.) I am a realism freak and I wholeheartedly support any features that increase the realism level. People will complain about how hard it is for a little while, but then they will adapt and soon they fly just fine with manual trim or whatever. Bring on the realism features!
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(ugghh.....irresistible....for ce causing me to... ahrghh! ...post reply..... AHHHHH!)
Hey Durr, did it ever occur to you that some of the things you consider "crutches" are actually added to make some things limited by the computer venue or the programming "more realistic"?
For example, if you'll check in the Help Forum, you'll find a GREAT explanation by Andy Bush on why the manual trimming in AH is.. well... unrealistic. Combat Trim was added as an attempt to partially fix this.
ID Tags? Ever occur to you that a 2D monitor offers you less visual information than your Mark I eyeball does when looking out of an aircraft canopy? Once again, an attempt to compensate for inherent limitations that make this venue "less realistic". Check a thread called "Visual Realism Test" in the Gameplay Forum. (I think that's where it is.)
Now, you may not like the implementations of certain attempts to "add realism"...
(argghh.. must.... stop... typing............HAH!).
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I like the game just fine the way it is. I was just saying that if there is a vote about realism, mark me down on the side of realism. However, I think AH has an awesome balance of realism and gameplay as it stands now. I still think that people like to see changes in things that they think help them at the expense of other players though. Its just human nature. That was the real point of the post, not to complain about id tags or auto trim.
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Anyone ever see a movie about acrobat pilots who flew competition? I believe the Kung Fu Caradine was in it. This guy had this superduper unreal manuever that was gauronteeed to win him the competion, if he lived through it. I don't remember how it ended, but during the film these guys were gruntin and groanin, nose bleeding etc. Anyone remember the name? Its been decades since I've seen it and don't really remember how it ends...
I would attend to Ginger first, then Maryanne. Then I would go back and see Ginger when she had recovered somewhat.:D
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Combat Trim was added as an attempt to partially fix this.
Pfft! and here i tought they added Combat Trim instead for an Easy Mode! its funny how history in AH revrites itself every now and then :rolleyes:
Oh almost forgot! if Combat Trim is an attempt to try to fix the unrealistic "manual trim" how come we still got manual trim in AH?
Yes Andy Bush, hes the one who thinks Padlock is realistic too.
Frankly i dont care about realism anymore, this is an game and it will never be realistic, all i want is the HARDEST game to do good in.
Any feature that makes this game harder is welcome imho.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Pfft! and here i tought they added Combat Trim instead for an Easy Mode! its funny how history in AH revrites itself every now and then :rolleyes:
Please show me any sort of support for the statement that Combat Trim was intended as an Easy Mode (other than from players that really have nothing but their own opinion to go on).
Why don't you give HT a call and see what he says about it?
Oh almost forgot! if Combat Trim is an attempt to try to fix the unrealistic "manual trim" how come we still got manual trim in AH?
My guess is because that way the cut out most of the whining and wailing and gnashing of teeth from folks that think one "dit" of trim, one tiny spin of the trim wheel, one "keyboard click" of elevator trim actually WOULD put your WW2 aircraft in a 1500 FPM ROC. :D
Yes Andy Bush, hes the one who thinks Padlock is realistic too.
Don't know... don't remember reading his opinion on Padlock. Got a link?
I'll say this.. Andy has FAR, FAR more experience in flying and teaching ACTUAL air combat than 99% of the people that post here.
Frankly i dont care about realism anymore, this is an game and it will never be realistic,
Ah, you seem here to understand the limitations of the PC flight sim!
all i want is the HARDEST game to do good in.
May I suggest trying winning at the everyday game of life? ;)
Any feature that makes this game harder is welcome imho.
Judging by the nitely attendance in the CT, those that hold an opinion similar to yours make up somewhere around 8% of the player base.
Not a good or bad thing... just an apparent truism. I'm glad there is a CT as a choice for folks that want to artificially make things harder.
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"I'm glad there is a CT as a choice for folks that want to artificially make things harder."
Not that I'm a proponant of adding or changing anything to make things harder just for the sake of it. Being that it is ALL artificial. I'm basically and simply anti-easy for the sake of the slowest common denomiator ;)
Westy
(GPS maps was on my list btw :) nothing as small, restrictive and unrealistric as what WW2O uses. Pilots had larger maps after all. But I'd welcome some challenge to navigating online)
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Well Westy seems like you have an new item to put on your poll :
Remove Manual Trim
Regards.
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Westy,
Easy/Hard and Realistic/Unrealistic are not linked arguments.
(Something that is Easy is not necessarily Unrealistic. Similarly, something that is Hard is not necessarily Realistic.)
That being said, sometimes the situations DO intersect.
The argument that "Easy = Unrealistic" & "Hard = Realistic" isn't valid as a generalization about any particular feature. Much more goes into it than that as many have discussed..... but some folks just can't/won't accept the invalidity for whatever reasons. Maybe the simplicity of the mantra is appealing. ;)
That's all I'm saying.
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trimmng a realplane is easy and intuitive... "automatic" using "manual trim" in AH is gamey.
lazs
"maniac"? oh, I get it.... sorta like calling a really tall guy "shorty"?
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"maniac"? oh, I get it.... sorta like calling a really tall guy "shorty"?
Uh? well i dont get it... can you please explain this sentence further so i can give an response...
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I dunno... I just expect my "maniac's" to be a little less fussy.. A little less interested in anal details.
lazs
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Yes i will stand inline with you others from now on, pretending that everything that HT implements in the game is for the sake of realism :rolleyes:
Lazs you elitist.
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"trimming a realplane is easy and intuitive... "
Does this apply to a typical "day one" flight student? Or does realplane trimming become easy and intuitive to them over time just like just anything else?
I ask because AH manual trim is now easy and intuitive to me but I have to admit it took a while for that to happen. I'm asking as I wonder if I'm just a "slow" learner or what?
Westy
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One thing that seems to be missed...
Auto co-ordination. I'd like to be able to turn that off.
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What "auto-coordination"? As in AW's rudder set-up?
Westy
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CC. AH doesn't seem much different than AW in that regard.
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AH sure is. There is no auto-coordination in AH. Not sure why you think there is unless this is one of those BW grown misconception passed off as fact.
Folks from AW who have twisty sticks find this out the most when they struggle with the "nose bounce" or "wobble." They're not used to the rudder not being "handled" for them and they need to adjust dampeners and the deadbands quite often.
Westy
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I'm a former AW with a twisty stick and I don't recognise what you're saying.
Are you sure that AH doesn't auto co-ordinate the turn? I rarely, if ever use rudder in a flat turn; which I most certainly do when flying a glider or a micro-light (I know it's not a warbird, but it's as close as I'll ever come).
That's not to say I don't use rudder; as I do in a host of other situations. But rudder use in AH doesn't mirror my (admittedly limited) RL experience.
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westy... I am saying that trim in real planes is intuitive. it is easily "learned". not so much learned as "feel". Computer trim is nothing like real trim in any way. If it is in there then it is in there only to add a feature that is unrealistic. It is useful (manual trim) for doing some realistic things like trimming out of compression but.... to use it to actually keep the plane in trim is so far removed from the real thing that it is more realistic to simply leave it out or, make it automatic. in other words.... it would be automatic for normal flying...second nature but it is nice to have the ability to manualy trim out of situations like compression. It seems about right just the way it is.
This may all change of course when we all have force feedback sticks that work realisticaly and more true to life takeoffs.
oh... learning to "trim" in AH is not a flight or "sim" skill but a game skill. much the same as learning to fly through ai ack is a game skill.. it is a skill that should not be highlighted IMO.
lazs
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"But rudder use in AH doesn't mirror my (admittedly limited) RL experience."
Well you may not have experienced but I recall many others that have. Two examples, Grizzly and Mosca, come right to mind.
While it was common knowlege that the AW developers thought that the average AW player needed coordinated rudders and other "helpers" in order to "play," for HiTech to do such a thing would take the bottom out right of his "hi-fidelity FM.' It would certainly change many perceptions on what he means when he says he'll never compromise his FM toor. IMO just because AH aircraft do not turn like what you've experienced in a glider or ultra-lite doens't mean HTC has borrowed a lame feature from AW. And there's certainly not any evidence otherwise to go around making it sound factual. Why dont' you ask them?
I understand what your saying there Lazs. Trim is just one of those features, or factors, that takes time to learn. Much like using a stall or slip in combat, "knowing" when to use flaps or learning to "ride the edge" of the flight envelope. There are no physical sensations that one would get in RL. Still, most "online pilots" earn the "feel" of the planes limits just the same. If they don't, they stick to bombers or drive a tank.
I do think the solution is between CT and MT because AH's manual trim has too much authority and imo is needed to be attended to more than was done in many planes in RL. Heck. Most did not have the P-51's complete in-flight trimming ability which they ALL do in AH
- Westy
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Remove ability to use any auto-trim while wounded
Ok, but remove the red screen and allow wounded people to see. If you are wounded so bad that you are passed out then you are simply ded. People that made it back that were wounded were allmost to the point of passing out or dying when they landed
Remove ability to use any auto-trim while in red/black-out.
Again... people didn't red or black out that often. They greyed. In AH we are simply blind. I don't trim out of black or redouts anyway but don't see how it is a big deal.
Remove the auto-retracting flaps
Ok.. no big deal but flaps need to be made a lot more realistic in other ways. too.
Remove ability to go straight from a 7 o'clock view to a 5 o'clock via 6 view
well.... even with the ability to do that we have about 5 times worse ability to see our computer world than we do in real life. fix it so that we have realistic vision first. we are still way worse off than we should be. We don't see anything as we flash from one view to another we need to keep bouncing around cause we can't pan or have peipheral vision.
Addition of a pilot stamina/fatigue model
Fine... but keep in mind that I am a lot tougher than you so should have a much higher tolerance.
Change clouds so icons and dots cannot be seen when flying inside
No real opinion. I didn't think you really could see the con when they got inot a dense cloud in AH. I think in "RL" cloud density varied. sometimes you could see and sometimes not.
Remove ability to use the radio (text and AHVoice) while in a parachute
I guess but... no big deal.
Remove ammo counters on planes that did not have them.
Hmm... if WWII pilots had to fight like we do, short bursts at multiple cons in quick order, then most likely everyonme would have put on simple little ammo counters. Still... I would say ok but.... at the same time that we do away with ammo counters we need top be given more tracer options. The ability to load multiple or different colored tracers when the ammo load is down to say 50 rounds per gun or whatever or... no tracers at all till we get down to 50 (or whatever amount we choose) rounds.
Remove "moonlight glare" inside cockpits, add nighlighting Add a permanent squelch feature. Not realism related but it's needed
Fine, no big deal tho.
lazs
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"keep in mind that I am a lot tougher than you so should have a much higher tolerance."
We'll see some day ;) I heard you were a wine spritzer type.
None of those questions were a 'big deal' and I simply wanted to get input from the readers here as to what they though could be added, removed or changed in the name of making many different aspects of AH more realistic. I thank you for adding your opinion and thoughts on those items (honestly). I agree with several of your suggestions. But I'm admitedly burned out with discussing gameplay changes as there's no comments from HTC (on this topic or other ones in this forumn as well as in "gameplay") to continue the discussion with. And I know they're busy.
Westy
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Originally posted by lazs2
westy... I am saying that trim in real planes is intuitive. it is easily "learned". not so much learned as "feel". Computer trim is nothing like real trim in any way. If it is in there then it is in there only to add a feature that is unrealistic. It is useful (manual trim) for doing some realistic things like trimming out of compression but.... to use it to actually keep the plane in trim is so far removed from the real thing that it is more realistic to simply leave it out or, make it automatic. in other words.... it would be automatic for normal flying...second nature but it is nice to have the ability to manualy trim out of situations like compression. It seems about right just the way it is.
Can you explain in what ways manual trimming in AH is markedly different than in a real plane?
Curious how many real planes you've flown that have needed trimming. I've flown a number and in my experience AH has it right in principle.
D
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doberman.. I really haven't flown that many real planes. A ti pacer, Mooney, a smattering of 150's and a 172 or two I'm not even licenced to fly currently. Even with my slim experiance, trimming was easy, intuitive and by "feel". AH may have the effect right except for the fact that trim seems to make bigger changes in AH but... There certainly is no "feel". It's not a big deal but it seems that automatic trim is workable for 90% of situations.
lazs
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The difference is that trim in an actual aircraft is NOT a primary flight control.
It's not how you trim, it's what happens when you do.
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Good Poll Westy
Like the nightlights which did exist in fighters for cockpit lighting
also like getting rid of auto combat flaps, learn to fly :eek:
also self retracting flaps should be eliminated
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I've been able to recreate rather realistic blackout model a few times while playing AH. They usually occur when the empty shells of beer cans don't fit on the table. The stamina factor gets really realistic as after a few times crawling back to the bench to grab the stick after a hard turning battle, where blackouts are quite frequent ,is really getting on your stamina.
So if you see my 190 plummeting towards earth without no evident damage to the plane you know that the blackout got me for good that time...
:D :D :D
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Thanks Hajo
!:)
And that made me lol here Charge. Thank you too :)
Westy
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None of the above.
This is a GAME, people, it's not real life. Many of the "unrealistic" things this poll mentions are there simply to try to overcome some of the limits imposed by the computer interface that don't affect real life pilots. IOW, in many ways it's already harder to do stuff in AH than in real life, so the game has to have some "unrealistic" features to make playing it possible.