Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jaus on January 17, 2002, 08:30:32 AM
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I've been thinking about upgrading my system from w98 to XP home and wanted to get some opinions from you guys who have done the same.
What do you think about XP and...
gaming support...
installing over W98 (problems, caveats, etc)...
stability/incompatibility issues...
Is it worth it in general?
Thanks,
jaus.
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I run win2k at home and am very happy. Anything released for an os I wait a year till I upgrade so they can get all of the bugs out.
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I've been running XP for a couple months now and have never been happier. I've done both an upgrade from WinME and a clean full install and never have had a problem with hardware compatibility.
PIV 1.7g
256mg RDRam
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I dont use it but many people are seem to be happy with it.
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As a simple user, there's nothing to choose from win 98 to XP. Indeed, XP is a bit heavier to run.
However, once you get past the simple user aspects, XP has a lot of very cool features which make it a worthwhile upgrade with regards to system/network administration and maintenance. XP offers control - a lot of it.
Ignore Win 2000. Drivers are a bastard to find, spotty DirectX support and seeing as XP has more drivers than 2000 already, I think it's safe to say that MS them selves see it as a dead end.
In short; if you're the type that never "tinkers" with the PC it's self, stick to Win98.
If you do like to tinker, go straight to XP.
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IMO windows XP is a security problem with all the open ports.
I'm the IS Manager for our Town and there is no way I will allow XP on our machines.
I can't say how it works with AH but the possibilities of hacking, virus and/or worse keep me away from it.
I agree with waiting a year or more on newly released software. There are just too many bugs otherwise.
hehe.. spitler youth :)
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
IMO windows XP is a security problem with all the open ports.
I'm the IS Manager for our Town and there is no way I will allow XP on our machines.
I can't say how it works with AH but the possibilities of hacking, virus and/or worse keep me away from it.
I agree with waiting a year or more on newly released software. There are just too many bugs otherwise.
hehe.. spitler youth :)
All MS operating system's have run with open ports thats why microsoft has so many security updates and service packs for there OSs. If you want closed ports and better security use linux Solaris or unix.
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I been running it for awhile now. I even run the Siatek joystick X36 with the drivers from the Siatek help website. No problems and if you have more then one machine get PRO. I also run the base drivers from the WinXP for my Geforce card.
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Spend the $100 on some new hardware.
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S!
If you have atleast 800MHz cpu and 256MB RAM, I'd suggest you to go for Windows 2000 Professional. Absolutely superb OS. Applications may crash, but win2k just announce that it'll be closed and everything continues as normal. I've never been happier, actually I'm the happiest...
I have 933MHz cpu with 512MB RAM and win2k is really fast. I think more memory is better than faster cpu. If you want stability, there aren't more stable OS than Win2k, period.
Seeker, what do you mean by drivers? I was really surprised when I first plugged my HP Deskjet 890C printer, Win2k didn't even bother to inform that new printer was installed. I thought there's something wrong and started to search the net to find drivers. Couldn't find, that got me really worried until I happened to look to printers folder; there it was, installed automatically and everything worked perfectly, hehe. Even GF2 detonator drivers for Win2k comes as fast as for other OS's. DirectX problems? Never had any. Jaus, don't listen to him, he don't know what he's talking about and more over, he don't know what he's missing...
;)
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XP rocks. Best OS I've ever worked with. Stable, great performance, simple to work with.
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Originally posted by Vector
S!
If you have atleast 800MHz cpu and 256MB RAM, I'd suggest you to go for Windows 2000 Professional.
;)
I have a 266 with 256 mb ram and it run beutifully. Cant do AH on that box but it runs the os just fine and other apps.
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Whatever you do, do not buy XP home.
It's the worst OS m$ ever made security wise. XP home comes with IIS installed by default - and thats loophole nr.1 for hackers.
It also lacks a huge amount of functions found in the pro.. basically its a mutilated version of the pro and there's no sensible reason why anyone should buy it.
So if you must get Xp, get XP professional. Or W2k Professional..
I've been running W2k for almost a year now and I'm very pleased with the performance.
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w2k pro is the stuff.
xp.. I'll never , ever run it.
as for the open ports on all MS stuff.. bull.
xp is the ONLY os shipped with all ports open.
not that MS is great , I hate it.
but.. can't afford Unix here :)
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Wlfgng thats why that crazy finn developed linux. Anyone can afford it.
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mayhem just how are you running aces high under these platforms ???
I have attempted to use a win95 emulator on a solaris 7.1 machine but could not get the emulator to recognize the 3d card driver
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riiiiight. Unix never gets hacked does it?
Just because the Unix virii and worms don't make it to the news print doesn't mean its more secure. When the Red Code Virus was hitting MS machines nobody mentioned that there was just as much traffic being generated by the Lion virus on Linux based systems.
XP is nice and stable. All the admin help options can be turned off, plus it has a built in firewall (basic, but it helps).
Originally posted by Mayhem
All MS operating system's have run with open ports thats why microsoft has so many security updates and service packs for there OSs. If you want closed ports and better security use linux Solaris or unix.
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Q: how does AH run under XP ?
Q: how about CH gear ?
Thx, need to know if I can upgrade home too.
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true.. linux, unix, mac .. etc etc.. all get hacked.
but not with the frequency of MS products.
if Mac, say, were to become the leading OS they would be the prime target.
being number 1 means you always get shots taken at you.
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...and how many copies of Linux, Mac and other non-Microsoft OS's are out there? Windows dominates and thus, its a bigger target for hackers, etc. If Linux had 90% market share, I think it would be just as big a target as Mirosoft currently is.
Redhat has bugs galore, Im on the support email that updates when problems are found...I'm getting an email a day or more. Point is, they all have headaches. Microsoft's just always land on Page 1 whilest the other OS's woes are generally harder to find to the layman.
ANYWAYS...
Here at work, just upgraded my Windows 98SE machine (Athlon 700. 128mb ram) to Windows XP Professional. Few impressions as I play with the new OS now...
1) Liked that it wanted to search the net during install for latest drivers.
2) Hate the default "pre-schooler" style bright colors and icons after install. An why wont these bastids leave my folder options to "Show all files" and "Details" toggled on!
3) Lost all Internet settings and sharing configurations. Wasn't hard to fix but the sharing setup was a lot clunker to work with than Win2k
4) No driver hiccups. From CD in to CD out, it was just over an hour and everything is working. I was able to change the look and feel back to the Windows 98 look, and when I add another 128mb to this machine, it should fly nicely!
5) Expensive! And already registered. Sigh. Would love to play with at home....oh well.
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Those of you stating that you'll never ever run XP better hope that 2000 is gonna be the last OS you need. Cause you ain't getting another 2000.
FWIW, I've been using Windows on various machines since BEFORE Windows 3.0. XP Pro is far and away the best version of Windows yet. All the features that 2000 users have been touting (ie. "when my programs crash I can close them without taking down Windows") are in XP also. Everything runs MUCH faster (than 2000, I've found in-game FR to be about equal to 98SE). No more security holes than any other version of Windows has started with.
And seriously, how many of you home users have EVER had anyone try to get into your system? Nobody wants the porn you've got stashed in that hidden subdirectory. If you're running broadband without a router or a firewall, you got so little computer knowledge that making judgements on OS's probably isn't your strong point. ;)
Some of the ways virii can sneak in could stand to be fixed but if you're opening e-mail attachments or unknown programs, you probably deserve what you get. ;) And hey, get some anti-virus software.
D
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have anti virus software...
have firewall..
have email attachment stripping...
have packet filters...
I get approximately 30-40 attempts each day to 'look' at my home machine.
True, they aren't interested in anything I have on my hard drive but.. In my experience, it doesnt' matter. Most hackers, script-kiddies, etc. only want to cause mischief/destruction... delete files, etc.
As for the OS's, I'm not talking about gaming per se.. but the security each OS provides.
Daily I check for 'leaks', hackers, etc and find that Win2000 is very secure (for a Microsoft product).
Yes, I know MS would like us all to migrate to XP and they are dropping 2000.. it's mostly to make money and dominate the internet.
We'll see if they get 'rid' of 2000 or not. Many IT professionals like myself are in MS's ear about it.
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Doberman pretty much summed it up. XP has all the features everyone thinks are so great about 2000 without the headaches of 2000, and it performs better. Hackers messing up your home computer? I think your pr0n is safe enough. Just because your firewall (lemme guess, ZA or BlackIce?) tells you your computer is being probed doesn't mean someone is trying to steal your collection of Pamela and videos.
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...until Microsoft does something about registration (i.e. individual codes) friendlier to gov't operations, I seriously doubt any of the entities will migrate. Imagine managing several hundred computers, each with their own CD key to track. Need a format? Nope, can't just grab that corporate license version and go- gotta have that key.
Anyone I have spoken to in the biz says XP is a no-go for gov't; I don't know how MS fairs without that market. Some of you other guys that currently work for the gov't may hear differently...
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Originally posted by Vulcan
riiiiight. Unix never gets hacked does it?
Just because the Unix virii and worms don't make it to the news print doesn't mean its more secure. When the Red Code Virus was hitting MS machines nobody mentioned that there was just as much traffic being generated by the Lion virus on Linux based systems.
XP is nice and stable. All the admin help options can be turned off, plus it has a built in firewall (basic, but it helps).
roadkill Code Red was caused by an IIS flaw. There was no immediate fix and the first m/s fix made it worse. Even worse, lots of folks running IIS were completely in the dark.
Lion relied on a broken remote print services. With the right root kit, you could grab root and install lion. Prevention of lion didn't require intervention by ANYONE. You simply used ipchains to deny access to a particular port.
There is a world of difference between the two situations.
XP appears to be a really nice os SO LONG AS YOU DON'T CONNECT TO THE INTERNET. The list of security problems with XP is long and more are on the horizon. Concerning Microsoft's firewall, why in the world would anyone expect their firewall to be better than the rest of the crap they sell?
Doesn't Microsoft own hotmail (or something like that?) Wonder why they don't use win2k or XP server to run it? Wonder why they use Unix for their server? Isn't that odd? lol
curly
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Good and good.
I use a FS Pro, Throttle, and Pro Pedals on an analog joystick port.
Oh and Curly, do you know what contradicting yourself is? Read these two sentences:
"Prevention of lion didn't require intervention by ANYONE. You simply used ipchains to deny access to a particular port."
At the end of the day I was getting more lion hits on my firewall than Red Code hits. And I did say the firewall was 'basic'. XP is basically Win 2K "facelift model", its a much better option than Win 95/95/Me. Linux/Unix is nice, but it is by no means perfect and by no means a good "off the shelf" solution for Joe Public.
Kieran there is a "key-free" version of XP, its the Corporate Edition. (also the version posted into the Warez newsgroups :D )
The only warning I have about XP is in relation to Creative products. It seems that Creative have no interest in writing good stable drivers for the SB Lives, Videocards, and Webcams they do.
Originally posted by Saintaw
Q: how does AH run under XP ?
Q: how about CH gear ?
Thx, need to know if I can upgrade home too.
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Using 98SE and will stay with Win98SE and here's why.
Win98SE does very well on my system, it ain't broke so I'm not fixing it.
WinXP doesn't recognize a cable Modem attatched to the USB Port. I have one so XP out of the question.
I have Speed Keys. Any of you that have a CH Pro Throttle know what I'm talking about. One can't use speed keys to program a joystick and throttle if you're running XP. XP simply ignores it.
let me see.....3 statements above why I'm running 98. Besides, I never was much of following a trend and being "en vogue" just for the sake of being "en vogue" :D
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Don't mind Curly.
He's just part of the OS Taliban. He'd like to roll back the progress of Western Civilization 30 years or so. If he'd have his way, we'd all be submitting out ACM maneuvers on stacks of punch cards to a PDP-11. We would then come back in a hour or so to pick up our print-outs to see if we got a kill or not. :D :D :D
Jus kidding.
Wab
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software firewall ??? NOT.
linux hardware firewall :)
as for the features.. I don't need them.
I need stability and security.
for software firewalls (home) I'd suggest Tiny Personal Firewall recommended by Gibson Research.
http://grc.com/default.htm
as for Government staying away from XP.. you're right.
I'm the IT manager for the city government here.
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FYI.. here's the problem with Windows XP and it's serious security flaws...:
http://rr.sans.org/win/sockets.php
I'd suggest you XP users really look hard at this.
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Yawn....
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Originally posted by Vector
S!
If you have atleast 800MHz cpu and 256MB RAM, I'd suggest you to go for Windows 2000 Professional. Absolutely superb OS. Applications may crash, but win2k just announce that it'll be closed and everything continues as normal. I've never been happier, actually I'm the happiest...
I have 933MHz cpu with 512MB RAM and win2k is really fast. I think more memory is better than faster cpu. If you want stability, there aren't more stable OS than Win2k, period.
You very obviously have never tried XP. W2K is good, don't get me wrong but XP provides all this guy needs and much more, without the driver headaches. I ran W2K for a long time....but for someone moving from Win98, XP is a much more headache free OS.
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
software firewall ??? NOT.
linux hardware firewall :)
as for the features.. I don't need them.
I need stability and security.
for software firewalls (home) I'd suggest Tiny Personal Firewall recommended by Gibson Research.
http://grc.com/default.htm
as for Government staying away from XP.. you're right.
I'm the IT manager for the city government here.
The Government is ALWAYS light years behind, whats new? Has there not been a patch for the security issue your referring to?
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I've been running XP for a month now and its great. AH wise its even better than the previous o/s. Before with win2k/98se I would remove my CH usb sticks from thier plugs then when I reconnected them I would have to reset my stick settings everytime, with XP all my stick settings are the same each time I remove a device, maybe thats due to the new CH manager but still XP is stable and framerates have a slight increase.
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My Saitek and Voodoo are not very well supported by XP. Not too many of my games do well on it either. I tried installing some games on my friend's computer and only one installed and ran right, and even it had some bugs.
I'll wait until XP stabilizes to the level of Win98SE or until something better comes along if that's even possible given the M$ monopoly.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Good and good.
Oh and Curly, do you know what contradicting yourself is? Read these two sentences:
"Prevention of lion didn't require intervention by ANYONE. You simply used ipchains to deny access to a particular port."
Not really, Vulcan --- perhaps poorly worded :) I meant that I didn't have to wait for a company to send me a patch, rather I used the existing capabilities of a existing piece of software.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question: "Why does Microsoft use BSD for HotMail rather than Win2k or XP server?"
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I have been using XP pro for several months now and I've been very happy with it.
I get better FPS in almost all my games and the only lockups I've had were in AH during the senario. But that was because I just installed RW and a new Geforce 3 card.
If you are going to go with XP you have to get the Pro version.
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My Answer (http://stuff.sidesconsulting.com)
And that's all I have to say about that.
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Originally posted by rickod
mayhem just how are you running aces high under these platforms ???
I have attempted to use a win95 emulator on a solaris 7.1 machine but could not get the emulator to recognize the 3d card driver
you can't run it under those OS's to my knowledge. as I said before all MS OS's run with open ports thats why there the easiest to break into.
However if your really worried about security run a firewall like zone alarm, set up a linux box for a server/firewall/gateway and or get a linksys router (if you have a cable or DSL modem). in other words if you really want to be save hide yourself behind tougher gear.
As far as MS OSs go I recomend the one that runs every thing you want to run. win96se is the best for drivers and games. 2k pro is the most stable but has some driver issues. XP has alot of driver issues (My modem and scanner do not have drivers for them and Mustek and creative labs most likely will not produce drivers for them) so before you upgrade make sure all your hardware have XP supported drivers or XP native drivers. Also never upgrade your OS. Back every thing up and fdisk/format your hard drive and make a fresh install. you can do this with an upgrade it will ask for Old OS Disk to qualify you for the upgrade. If your going to use XP I have to recomend XP pro on NTFS partisions. Look for an OEM full version if you can (no product activation). avoid rented software (Ive already seen alot of shareware go rental like roger wilco) If people don't buy this rented crap the industry will stop pushing this crap on us.
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For those who claim hackers are not interested in getting the pr0n out of my machine (why would they, I already run Morpheus ;)) I'd say that you're right.
They're much more interested in having my online-banking account information and my creditcard numbers..
I know a real life case where a 'friend' from irc gave a girl a small program. This program while working as a simple game installed a backdoor to this girls computer. He then intruded her box *G* and stole creditcard information (made online shopping with that) and stole some very private scanned photographs of her. They were later spreaded through his friends. Unfortunately I wasn't able to obtain any of them *cough* :)
So yes, I think everyone should be a little concerned with computer security.
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Got Pentijum 4 1,8G + 768MB RAM. Before the upgrade i was runing Win98SE. After the upgrade im runing XP only and Im pretty satisfied with performance and stability. So shortly: XP do work for me just fine.
Intel Winipeg Motherboard
P4 1,8GHz
768MB RAM
GeForce 3 Ti500
SB Live!
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I have XP 3 moths with only 1 system crash (after playing AH 5 hours). XP need a good PC, but it's the first good S.O. of M$soft, after the crap of Win 95, 98 is the worst of all)(, 98 SE and Me.
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Funny me too, I had the ports blocked on my firewall software. So your point is? On Windows I used another app to fix it, you did the same. Doesn't negate the fact a virus like the red code virus but for linux systems was ignored by the press does it.
Unix/Linux is excellent for dedicated server hardware. NT is a bloated pig for stuff like mail and webservers where you don't need a sound card/vid card/gui etc. NT is nice if you want to run multiple apps, do other frilly stuff, or run some of the software out there thats not available on other platforms.
XP is fine, just turn off the MS-by-default-enabled crap and your away.
Hell, open MS ports are the least of your worries. A good morphed-Sub-7 will rip any MS O/S open.
Originally posted by AKcurly
Not really, Vulcan --- perhaps poorly worded :) I meant that I didn't have to wait for a company to send me a patch, rather I used the existing capabilities of a existing piece of software.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question: "Why does Microsoft use BSD for HotMail rather than Win2k or XP server?"
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Actually Win 2K Pro only needs a 486 with 64Mb of RAM.
And, interestingly, a 486 with 64Mb of RAM runs better with W2K than with Win 95 or 98.
XP is basically W2K "facelift" model. If you like W2K you'll like XP. Plus XP is getting all the drivers for the 'home' stuff (webcams, joysticks, capture cards, etc).
Originally posted by Vector
S!
If you have atleast 800MHz cpu and 256MB RAM, I'd suggest you to go for Windows 2000 Professional. Absolutely superb OS. Applications may crash, but win2k just announce that it'll be closed and everything continues as normal. I've never been happier, actually I'm the happiest...
I have 933MHz cpu with 512MB RAM and win2k is really fast. I think more memory is better than faster cpu. If you want stability, there aren't more stable OS than Win2k, period.
Seeker, what do you mean by drivers? I was really surprised when I first plugged my HP Deskjet 890C printer, Win2k didn't even bother to inform that new printer was installed. I thought there's something wrong and started to search the net to find drivers. Couldn't find, that got me really worried until I happened to look to printers folder; there it was, installed automatically and everything worked perfectly, hehe. Even GF2 detonator drivers for Win2k comes as fast as for other OS's. DirectX problems? Never had any. Jaus, don't listen to him, he don't know what he's talking about and more over, he don't know what he's missing...
;)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
XP is basically W2K "facelift" model. If you like W2K you'll like XP. Plus XP is getting all the drivers for the 'home' stuff (webcams, joysticks, capture cards, etc).
Thats basicaly right. But I must say that Im runing XP with all those 'facelift' options turned off. Well the new XP design looks nice but only for about 1 day or so... Then It started to annoy me to the limit so I switched the look and feel back to more conservative Win2k style + classic start menu. After that not only system became even faster and even more responsive... In general I dont really like Micro$oft but must admit that XP is the first OS that is quite usable by general public (DOS was OK too but we all know that DOS was a stolen OS anyway so no credit to M$ for it) :D and yes for my living I repair Apple hardware and do user support and training for Apple users in DTP, Pre-Press and DV areas :) so technicaly Im on the other side of the barricade :p
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Tumor
hehe true enough.
The only difference with my municipality is that we're a ski resort town and have to stay a bit more current than the average government office :)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Actually Win 2K Pro only needs a 486 with 64Mb of RAM.
Well, I must admit you're right. One of my friend is working in a architecture design company which uses Win2k Pro in their server. Regardless their server hardware (286 cpu, 2MB RAM, 3.5" floppy) he thinks their autocad runs acceptable. However as in these days everyone's looking for more speed and efficiency, they've decided to upgrade their server with a 42MB hardisk.
:)
All people has different thoughts of how fast is fast, but I have 800MHz PIII 128MB RAM in my work and IMO it's awful slow compared to what I have in my home. 800MHz PIII isn't that much slower than 933MHz PIII, so I think the memory is very important with win2k and with all windows.
If I have to name one flaw in win2k, it's lack of DOS or good DOS emulator. I even had to dump my CH Throttle (not pro), because it lost its programmability after updating to win2k from 98SE. But that ain't good reason enough to go back to 98SE. Anyway, just waiting impatiently for my X45 to come.
Tumor, you're right, in both cases :)
If jaus is choosing just between 98 and XP, I'd go for XP, no doubt. From win2k MS OS's has taken huge step on stability (in home pc's).
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The stick programmability was lost because MS removed the ability of programs to directly address the keyboard functions. As a security reason.
Now we only need some private coder to code a patch to remove the block (the stick manufacturers won't do it because it would create a conflict with MS)
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Thx for the info mrsid2. I've tried to find a patch or emulator of what ever to get my throttle work again, but now I don't care anymore, getting soon X45, WOOOHOOOO!! Goodbye numpad views!! I hated you so much!! :D
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Funny me too, I had the ports blocked on my firewall software. So your point is? On Windows I used another app to fix it, you did the same. Doesn't negate the fact a virus like the red code virus but for linux systems was ignored by the press does it.
Unix/Linux is excellent for dedicated server hardware. NT is a bloated pig for stuff like mail and webservers where you don't need a sound card/vid card/gui etc. NT is nice if you want to run multiple apps, do other frilly stuff, or run some of the software out there thats not available on other platforms.
XP is fine, just turn off the MS-by-default-enabled crap and your away.
Hell, open MS ports are the least of your worries. A good morphed-Sub-7 will rip any MS O/S open.
Well, code red wasn't ignored by me. My point was that MS products are notorious security risks. They are so notorious that even Microsoft doesn't use them at HotMail. It's such an obvious publicity coup for Unix folks (that MS doesn't use NT or win2k server), I find it difficult to believe efficiency is the reason MS uses BSD Unix. Didn't I read the other day that NT performed at (or exceeded) Linux for many web type applications?
Vulcan, security is the reason MS uses BSD UNIX, not efficiency. Nice try though :D
As you know, all OSs pose security risks, although the NSA version of Linux sounds very formidable. Security will always be a question of degree, and to some extent, the ability of the network guy to respond to new attacks. To a large extent, MS ties the hands of the guys who are in the position of defending (from remote attacks) MS server types while
the UNIX community takes the opposite approach.
Since every single OS produced by MS has had major security problems, why use any MS product as a 24/7 point of presence? You're asking for trouble if you do unless of course you make your living resolving issues for customers who are foolish enough to take your advice and install MS server products in the first place. But then, we're talking about ethics, not efficacy.
curly
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Curly you are right on the mark.
couldn't have said it better myself.
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Ever since I started to work in computer support team, I started to like MS. Not because it's good but because it ensures me a job now and in the future.. :)
We had one office connected to a milling plant which produced all kinds of electric disturbance to the electric grid.. Before I came to work there, they didn't even have UPS and with the current changing all the time, the systems were broken constantly. From 40 computers, about 2 malfunctioned every week.. :)
Of course after I purchased and installed the UPS system the level of malfunctions droped radically and they gave me the boot LOL. They thought they won't need me anymore. Great thanks for ya.
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oh get real. Just go to astalavista.box.sk and search for Linux and Unix exploits. You know as well as I do there are plenty. MS just gets bad publicity a) cos their pockets are so richly lined b) everyone likes to take a shot at them.
I'm no MS cheerleader but I no penguin-ass kisser either.
Yes MS products are bloated.
NO MS products have no more security issues than other software solutions. And lets not forget IIS in my view is an app, not a core part of the O/S. There are other webservers available for NT just as there are other Mailservers. MS could quite happily have put NT solutions in and used 3rd part server apps. Nice try curly, no cigar :) .
And code red wasn't ignored by me either. I pointed out an exploit on Unix, you said it was fixed without user intervention (and then contradicted yourself in the next sentence). I think the point is while MS got hammered in the press the Unix community quietly swept Lion under the carpet :) while making a song and dance about red code.
If anyone came onto the market with an O/S that was perfect, I'd call them a liar.
Finally, in a well designed network, edge product is secured by other means that the O/S, whether that O/S be MS, Linux, Unix, Mac etc. The use of a good firewall and IDS is critical on all these systems.
BTW, my $$$ come from the networks, not the edge gear. So I sit on the sidelines and watch the Unix vs MS crowd fight it out. I must say the Unix guys tend to be more zealots, and often become very one eyed. Whereas the MS people are just a) arrogant b) greedy c) in a state of constant denial.
Originally posted by AKcurly
Well, code red wasn't ignored by me. My point was that MS products are notorious security risks. They are so notorious that even Microsoft doesn't use them at HotMail. It's such an obvious publicity coup for Unix folks (that MS doesn't use NT or win2k server), I find it difficult to believe efficiency is the reason MS uses BSD Unix. Didn't I read the other day that NT performed at (or exceeded) Linux for many web type applications?
Vulcan, security is the reason MS uses BSD UNIX, not efficiency. Nice try though :D
As you know, all OSs pose security risks, although the NSA version of Linux sounds very formidable. Security will always be a question of degree, and to some extent, the ability of the network guy to respond to new attacks. To a large extent, MS ties the hands of the guys who are in the position of defending (from remote attacks) MS server types while
the UNIX community takes the opposite approach.
Since every single OS produced by MS has had major security problems, why use any MS product as a 24/7 point of presence? You're asking for trouble if you do unless of course you make your living resolving issues for customers who are foolish enough to take your advice and install MS server products in the first place. But then, we're talking about ethics, not efficacy.
curly
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Vulcan, I certainly don't deny that new buffer overflows are frequently found. However, as they are found, they are announced on the security websites/mailing lists and you either block access to the port or replace the problematic software with patched software. With MS apps, there's one source of patches, and their track record hasn't been good. Even worse, many of the problems aren't "security problems" as such. Rather they involve scripts taking control of a client machine's mail client and hosing the freaking network (because of the sheer number of clients involved.) It interfers with my ability to play warp free Aces High. :D
You said NO MS products have no more security issues than other software solutions.
What can I say? Either you've been asleep for the past five years or you sell MS software. It's the only explanation. :)
you said it was fixed without user intervention (and then contradicted yourself in the next sentence).
No I didn't. I simply said that my fix didn't require a patch from a software vendor. Instead, I used ipchains. Admittedly, I didn't say it clearly the first time, but I did so the second time. Now I've said it clearly a third time. :)
Vulcan, no security minded soul uses a MS OS as an important server. Hell, even Microsoft is that smart, right? :) They use BSD!
curly
Originally posted by Vulcan
oh get real. Just go to astalavista.box.sk and search for Linux and Unix exploits. You know as well as I do there are plenty. MS just gets bad publicity a) cos their pockets are so richly lined b) everyone likes to take a shot at them.
I'm no MS cheerleader but I no penguin-ass kisser either.
Yes MS products are bloated.
NO MS products have no more security issues than other software solutions. And lets not forget IIS in my view is an app, not a core part of the O/S. There are other webservers available for NT just as there are other Mailservers. MS could quite happily have put NT solutions in and used 3rd part server apps. Nice try curly, no cigar :) .
And code red wasn't ignored by me either. I pointed out an exploit on Unix, you said it was fixed without user intervention (and then contradicted yourself in the next sentence). I think the point is while MS got hammered in the press the Unix community quietly swept Lion under the carpet :) while making a song and dance about red code.
If anyone came onto the market with an O/S that was perfect, I'd call them a liar.
Finally, in a well designed network, edge product is secured by other means that the O/S, whether that O/S be MS, Linux, Unix, Mac etc. The use of a good firewall and IDS is critical on all these systems.
BTW, my $$$ come from the networks, not the edge gear. So I sit on the sidelines and watch the Unix vs MS crowd fight it out. I must say the Unix guys tend to be more zealots, and often become very one eyed. Whereas the MS people are just a) arrogant b) greedy c) in a state of constant denial.
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after recent hardware update,i have no choice and must upgrade to Win XP becose Win ME was unable to handle the new box
now is it stable no lock ups sometime i overhull the win kernel and crashing
other side many old componets refuse work with WinXP all my Ch gear are out from use
only remark it take soooo looong to boot up with usb devices atached
why a hell ?
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Q: how does AH run under XP ?
Q: how about CH gear ?
Thx, need to know if I can upgrade home too.
I am reliably informed (I hope) that gameport CH hardware works fine but speedkeys doesn't. The USB kit comes with another button programmer that does.
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Wlfgng
IMO windows XP is a security problem with all the open ports.
As farr as i know XP got fully integrated firewall.. easy to configure and use ! not so easy to pass oput !
But u got to turn it on 1-st !
So plizz 1st know the product, then u can judge them !
Asmo
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I recently went through a XP / W2k server course at a microsoft certified education center.. The trainer was the first one to warn about XP home and it's joke of a firewall utility. He said that under no circumstances let anyone in the company to install XP home for home or work usage.
If a MS certified trainer says that, I'd start to listen :eek:
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Just so you all know,Aces also runs well on MS .NET Advanced Server :)
I have been using XP for about 3 months and love it,i've come through the 3.1/95/98/me/2k route and i really think this is MS's best effort yet,it does have some probs,but i think overall it is worth using,
Le Paul
2) Hate the default "pre-schooler" style bright colors and icons after install. An why wont these bastids leave my folder options to "Show all files" and "Details" toggled on!
Goto tools folder options in explorer,view,apply to all folders (when u get one set how u want it)
:)
Just a test,can u read this before replying?
[hide]
Testing Hide :)
[/hide]
:)
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Steely the point is that the majority of users have no clue that they can enable these for starters, yet alone know where to find them.
The 'hide file extensions' crap has enabled many viruses to spread because users see only the fake extensions instead of the real ones.
It's useless cosmetics that causes more harm than it does good.
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Totally agree MrSid,i think it really is only for the kinda advanced user.....unless set up to be used by someone,for someone else,locking it down to whatever kind of machine it is supposed to be :).
PS I'm actually wrong about Aces running on .Net server,having a bit o trouble making it work....but,"i think i can..i think i can"
Steely
"Mmmmmm i wonder what would happen if i......."
:)
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windows xp (and windows 2000 Sp2 from what I hear) have the keyboard port closed so that the old Ch gear (fighter stick pro throt exc) can no longer be programed. Ch products will not have xp drivers for gameport gear till this summer. the problem remains however you still will not be able to program them in the OS. The work around for this is to program from win 9x (including ME) in either a multiboot enviroment or from another machine (running win9x).
There however would be a great option Iam sure should be workable. Make an adapapter that can accept a ps2 keyboard and 2 midi/gameport jacks and convert them to a USB line. there are some out there but none that will truely work with the programing fetures of the ch line. So what Ch products needs to do is make a anolog to usb adapter and a new ch speed keys or ch control manager that works with the new device. on a plus side it should fix the problem with the toe brakes on the pro pedals.
I don't see why Ch products couldn't produce the above device and software in a timely manor for about 25 to 75 bucks. It would save alot of us 400 bucks to upgrade to the new USB versions of the gear we already have. I can only see two reasons why the wouldn't Price vs. profit if there aren't enough people with the old gear specially the pro throttle or they feal they could make more money forcing ch users to upgrade.
If you are a ch products user and you use the old gameport gear I recomend you send Ch products an email message letter or phone call and voice your opinion on this matter. If theres enough intrest in this mabey we can get the product we need if CH products feels its worth it.
CH Products
970 Park Center Dr.
Vista CA, 92083
760-598-2518
760-598-2524 FAX
760-598-7833 Tech Sup.
Brenda hayes - VP Retail Division - brenda@chproducts.com
Debby Seymour - Director of sales and marketing - debby@chproducts.com
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Let me quote you : "Lion relied on a broken remote print services. With the right root kit, you could grab root and install lion. Prevention of lion didn't require intervention by ANYONE. You simply used ipchains to deny access to a particular port. "
Thats what you said. First, you say "didn't require intevention by ANYONE". Then proceed to contradict that.
Same goes with MS Apps, as security holes are found they are published on websites. My point here is you blocked lion with ip chains, I blocked red code with a firewall (already in use). Not much difference in the solution is there?
The problem perceived here is that because so many of the Apps come from MS that MS has more problems. If you lumped all the Unix app problems together you'd have as much if not more.
Curly, no security minded soul relies on the server to be the first line of defence :)
Now tell me Curly, what O/S did the first Worm on the Internet hit?
Originally posted by AKcurly
Vulcan, I certainly don't deny that new buffer overflows are frequently found. However, as they are found, they are announced on the security websites/mailing lists and you either block access to the port or replace the problematic software with patched software. With MS apps, there's one source of patches, and their track record hasn't been good. Even worse, many of the problems aren't "security problems" as such. Rather they involve scripts taking control of a client machine's mail client and hosing the freaking network (because of the sheer number of clients involved.) It interfers with my ability to play warp free Aces High. :D
You said NO MS products have no more security issues than other software solutions.
What can I say? Either you've been asleep for the past five years or you sell MS software. It's the only explanation. :)
you said it was fixed without user intervention (and then contradicted yourself in the next sentence).
No I didn't. I simply said that my fix didn't require a patch from a software vendor. Instead, I used ipchains. Admittedly, I didn't say it clearly the first time, but I did so the second time. Now I've said it clearly a third time. :)
Vulcan, no security minded soul uses a MS OS as an important server. Hell, even Microsoft is that smart, right? :) They use BSD!
curly
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Vulcan, perhaps I am incorrect, but I thought we were talking about security on servers (and the lack of it.)
I thought it was interesting that Microsoft, purveyor of all that's good and great doesn't use a Microsoft OS at HotMail.
I tried to get you to respond to this fact, but instead, you mumbled something about efficiency of NT and completely ignored the statement in all subsequent responses. Microsoft claims NT is fair more efficient than Linux.
Now, someone (Vulcan or Microsoft) is having trouble with the facts. Who is it? Either Microsoft is right (NT is efficient) when compared to Linux or
you're right and NT is a bloated pig (to paraphrase your words.)
If Microsoft is correct, then evidently they don't use NT as a Hotmail server because of Security issues. Instead, they use a UNIX variant (BSD.)
If you're correct, then all the test data which supports the fact that NT isn't a bloated pig is in fact wrong. Now, that would be interesting. :) Vulcan against the world! :)
Concerning your other remarks, you are re-hasing statements which I have agreed to. There are occasional buffer overflow issues with linux. I have agreed with this statement, ok? :)
The public nature of Linux makes work like
this http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/index.html possible. The closed nature of all Microsoft OSs fediddleing guarantees that work like the above will never happen with a Microsoft OS as the base. Instead, we have dear old Bill mouthing platitudes about security. Man, talk about giving someone a break. :)
curly
Originally posted by Vulcan
Let me quote you : "Lion relied on a broken remote print services. With the right root kit, you could grab root and install lion. Prevention of lion didn't require intervention by ANYONE. You simply used ipchains to deny access to a particular port. "
Thats what you said. First, you say "didn't require intevention by ANYONE". Then proceed to contradict that.
Same goes with MS Apps, as security holes are found they are published on websites. My point here is you blocked lion with ip chains, I blocked red code with a firewall (already in use). Not much difference in the solution is there?
The problem perceived here is that because so many of the Apps come from MS that MS has more problems. If you lumped all the Unix app problems together you'd have as much if not more.
Curly, no security minded soul relies on the server to be the first line of defence :)
Now tell me Curly, what O/S did the first Worm on the Internet hit?
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No, we were talking about Windows XP.
However you started babbling about MS using Unix as a server solution for hotmail and this made XP bad as a desktop solution.
So tell me, a Unix/Linux server, such as say the Cobalt product. With the GUI, requirements for a video card, sound card, etc all stripped out of it, how could that be LESS effecient than an NT box with its overheads of a gui? A lot of rack mount mail/web server solutions are based around products like these because an O/S without a GUI like these is extremely effecient, and extremely secure (and its a cheaper box to build). They are also easy to cluster and manage.
I never said MS don't roadkill :) I'm not a MS Zealot. So quote MS as much as you like.
And I didn't rehash statements, I quoted you word for word.
You didn't answer my question - which O/S did the first Internet Worm hit?
BTW, heres an "occasional buffer overflow" for you:
"January 17, 2002: There is a security hole in sudo(8) that can be exploited when the Postfix sendmail replacement is installed that may allow an attacker on the local host to gain root privileges."
6 of one, half dozen of the other. Each has its strengths, each has its weaknesses. Curly you are just another one-eyed Unix zealot jealous that Bill Gates is rolling in our $$$$$$$. Get over it.
p.s. I don't make my money on O/S's, I make it on the networking hardware.
Originally posted by AKcurly
Vulcan, perhaps I am incorrect, but I thought we were talking about security on servers (and the lack of it.)
I thought it was interesting that Microsoft, purveyor of all that's good and great doesn't use a Microsoft OS at HotMail.
I tried to get you to respond to this fact, but instead, you mumbled something about efficiency of NT and completely ignored the statement in all subsequent responses. Microsoft claims NT is fair more efficient than Linux.
Now, someone (Vulcan or Microsoft) is having trouble with the facts. Who is it? Either Microsoft is right (NT is efficient) when compared to Linux or
you're right and NT is a bloated pig (to paraphrase your words.)
If Microsoft is correct, then evidently they don't use NT as a Hotmail server because of Security issues. Instead, they use a UNIX variant (BSD.)
If you're correct, then all the test data which supports the fact that NT isn't a bloated pig is in fact wrong. Now, that would be interesting. :) Vulcan against the world! :)
Concerning your other remarks, you are re-hasing statements which I have agreed to. There are occasional buffer overflow issues with linux. I have agreed with this statement, ok? :)
The public nature of Linux makes work like
this http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/index.html possible. The closed nature of all Microsoft OSs fediddleing guarantees that work like the above will never happen with a Microsoft OS as the base. Instead, we have dear old Bill mouthing platitudes about security. Man, talk about giving someone a break. :)
curly
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No reason to become abusive, Vulcan. :) I wasn't babbling -- thought I was ministering to the ill. You sounded in need of treatment. :)
And you still haven't answered my question: Why is Microsoft using BSD at Hotmail?
Tell me why Microsoft is doing such a strange thing and I'll confess to anything. :)
curly
Originally posted by Vulcan
No, we were talking about Windows XP.
However you started babbling about MS using Unix as a server solution for hotmail and this made XP bad as a desktop solution.
So tell me, a Unix/Linux server, such as say the Cobalt product. With the GUI, requirements for a video card, sound card, etc all stripped out of it, how could that be LESS effecient than an NT box with its overheads of a gui? A lot of rack mount mail/web server solutions are based around products like these because an O/S without a GUI like these is extremely effecient, and extremely secure (and its a cheaper box to build). They are also easy to cluster and manage.
I never said MS don't roadkill :) I'm not a MS Zealot. So quote MS as much as you like.
And I didn't rehash statements, I quoted you word for word.
You didn't answer my question - which O/S did the first Internet Worm hit?
BTW, heres an "occasional buffer overflow" for you:
"January 17, 2002: There is a security hole in sudo(8) that can be exploited when the Postfix sendmail replacement is installed that may allow an attacker on the local host to gain root privileges."
6 of one, half dozen of the other. Each has its strengths, each has its weaknesses. Curly you are just another one-eyed Unix zealot jealous that Bill Gates is rolling in our $$$$$$$. Get over it.
p.s. I don't make my money on O/S's, I make it on the networking hardware.
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I have a question about XP- how does one ghost it in the current registration key environment? Does the corporate license allow for ghosting?
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
I get approximately 30-40 attempts each day to 'look' at my home machine.
A great deal of the probes are actually security checks by your ISP. I average about 15 probes a day and of those, 12 of them are usually from Cox.net.
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Im happy with Win98se.
Theres nothing scarier than to install/upgrade to newer windows :D
Besides, as long as they require me to contact somewhere to get the thing to work, im not gonna buy it.
What says I do have connection to do that or phone handy, when I need to get them MS to open the XP?
If its bad time of the day and can't connect to internet.. well, so much for using XP for next few hours or days in worst situation.
Theres all the drivers for win98se already and working good..
Win98 is working and running good.
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I agree with you today, Fishu. XP is good, but 98SE seems to work for me as well. Trouble is, 2 or 3 years down the road we may not have much of a choice.
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Originally posted by akak
A great deal of the probes are actually security checks by your ISP. I average about 15 probes a day and of those, 12 of them are usually from Cox.net.
AKAK you mean people within your own ISP are trying to hack your box. They probe your ip range to see if any sucker left ports open :)
I had an instance like that also, which I reported to my ISP and they gave the end-user in question a warning. Soon after that they also posted a similar warning to the message board, stating that port scans and / or flooding will result in losing the internet account.
Most likely the probes you get from cox are users infected with some trojan, sending their little fingerprints about the net.
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Asmodan, you obviously didn't read my links posted earlier.
yeah xp has a software firewall .. it sux.
mrsic, akak is right. They do send 'harmless' probes.
however.. not all are harmless or from the ISP.
It's easy to look in the log and see who originates them.
We also have a 'honey pot' at work and it's the most revealing of all.. I love catching hackers and reporting them :)
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Dunno Curly, I don't work for MS nor am I an MS Zealot with some sort of twisted story to tell.
But my reasoning, if it was me, would be this:
A unix based solution is less hardware intensive. Especially in the area of web and mail services. Where the box has no GUI and is managed via HTML and other database hook ins. Boxes I've used like that in the past are also easy to cluster and manage as a cluster.
For example, the Cobalt rack products are excellent solutions for scaleable web serving, with clustering capabilities and redundancy. And as a rack solution much easier to manage. Especially when the application being provide is fixed and there are not more advanced user services being provided (ie RAS, print and file sharing, scheduling etc).
Maybe it boils down to this Curly. There are people in MS who are not fanatical enough to cut off their nose to spite their face? Maybe those people can sit back and say, well, here is a better solution, its not ours, but this is what we should use. Isn't it interesting that they can admit the advantages of the competitive product in this situation without being complete zealots of their own?
BTW, you still haven't answered my question about the first O/S hit by an Internet worm :) is that one eyed zealotry blinding you perhaps?
Originally posted by AKcurly
No reason to become abusive, Vulcan. :) I wasn't babbling -- thought I was ministering to the ill. You sounded in need of treatment. :)
And you still haven't answered my question: Why is Microsoft using BSD at Hotmail?
Tell me why Microsoft is doing such a strange thing and I'll confess to anything. :)
curly
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Just something for you guys to think about...
Windows 2000 is "Windows NT Version 5.0"
Windows XP is "Windows NT Version 5.1"
...according to Microsoft.
Incase anyone was thinking there was that much of a difference between the two. I have not seen any device drivers for XP that didn't work for Win2k.
-Ryan
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Oh, and just for giggles. The BSD/Hotmail thing...
When Microsoft bought Hotmail it was already running on BSD, and MS had the good sense to leave it alone. (for a little while)
The front end load balancers for hotmail were custom BSD kernel'ed boxes which were handling over 30,000 connections/sec at peak times. You must remember this was a few years ago so the hardware was no so buff as today, those numbers were unheard of. If MS wanted to replace those 2 boxes it would have taken them 5 RACKS of NT servers of equivalent stature. It was not something they were capable of doing at the time.
But... that didn't stop them from trying. Instead they decided to keep those machines for now, and concentrate on just moving the webservers onto NT. I had a friend who was a contractor to Hotmail when they first 'attempted' to move the webservers over to NT/IIS from BSD/Apache. It was a disaster, try as they might... they were incapable of getting the IIS boxes to run fast enough and they were running out of Colo space because it was taking them 2-3 NT servers to handle the connection load of each of the BSD servers they decommissioned. Now keep in mind this was NT4.0 with it's 16-bit non-multithreaded TCP stack against custom written hand-optimized BSD kernel'ed boxes so it isn't really a fair comparison.
That project ended in pathetic failure, but that was a few years ago. I believe they have since migrated all their front end webservers to Win2k but their backend might still be BSD... not sure.
Anyway, makes for an interesting story... I know the BSD stuff was very heavily entrenched in Hotmail... but most/all of it might be gone by now.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Dunno Curly, I don't work for MS nor am I an MS Zealot with some sort of twisted story to tell.
But my reasoning, if it was me, would be this:
A unix based solution is less hardware intensive. Especially in the area of web and mail services. Where the box has no GUI and is managed via HTML and other database hook ins. Boxes I've used like that in the past are also easy to cluster and manage as a cluster.
For example, the Cobalt rack products are excellent solutions for scaleable web serving, with clustering capabilities and redundancy. And as a rack solution much easier to manage. Especially when the application being provide is fixed and there are not more advanced user services being provided (ie RAS, print and file sharing, scheduling etc).
Maybe it boils down to this Curly. There are people in MS who are not fanatical enough to cut off their nose to spite their face? Maybe those people can sit back and say, well, here is a better solution, its not ours, but this is what we should use. Isn't it interesting that they can admit the advantages of the competitive product in this situation without being complete zealots of their own?
BTW, you still haven't answered my question about the first O/S hit by an Internet worm :) is that one eyed zealotry blinding you perhaps?
Concerning the BSD server at Hotmail, perhaps your response is correct. I don't think it's likely though. I think the folks who admininster Hotmail are aware of the potential for disaster with a NT server. If you are running no services but e-mail and page service, it's possible to screw a BSD box down to the point that it's inpenetrable.
Concerning the first OS hit by an worm ... heh, that's an easy one. First of all, MS didn't have a network aware OS at the time of the worm. Didn't that worm precede win3.1 and winsock.dll? :)
You're talking about the one the grad student on the East coast turned loose, right? As I recall, he took advantage of a broken rule set in sendmail and managed to get all of the sendmail servers from Chicago East swapping spit. :) I'm sure the OS was UNIX.
curly
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OK Curly, so now what we're saying is yes, Unix is a far more effecient solution in this scenario (especially given other postings above). And Unix was the first O/S hit by an Internet worm.
And finally, Unix was years ahead of MS products, and they still haven't got it watertight and all the bugs ironed out of it :)
p.s FWIW I upgraded a friends Pentium MMX 166 in the weekend to XP Pro, ran it just sweet.
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Windows XP home edition: Hackers tool of choice ?
Interesting article although it goes a bit far
http://grc.com/dos/winxp.htm
the same ol, same ol...
Bottom line is know your software and it's vulnerabilities and FIX THEM.
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grc.com is known for fanning fires for self-promotion, some of the stuff they've done in the past has been 'interesting'.
This is not about a vunerability with XP, its about XP being more flexible with its tcp stack and thus becoming closer to linux it its hacking abilities. However, raw mode drivers and other tools are plentiful for other versions of Windows, so a quick browse through astalavista would get most script-kiddies up and running.
Originally posted by Wlfgng
Windows XP home edition: Hackers tool of choice ?
Interesting article although it goes a bit far
http://grc.com/dos/winxp.htm
the same ol, same ol...
Bottom line is know your software and it's vulnerabilities and FIX THEM.
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Heh, I didn't say anything about efficiency - I said BSD could be made extremely secure (implying that NT cannot.)
Concerning "all the bugs ironed out:" That is goofy and you know it. :) Do you think anyone will ever get all the bugs ironed out of any complex computer program? Not likely. :)
Concerning the XP install. Did you friend pay the license fee? :)
curly
Originally posted by Vulcan
OK Curly, so now what we're saying is yes, Unix is a far more effecient solution in this scenario (especially given other postings above). And Unix was the first O/S hit by an Internet worm.
And finally, Unix was years ahead of MS products, and they still haven't got it watertight and all the bugs ironed out of it :)
p.s FWIW I upgraded a friends Pentium MMX 166 in the weekend to XP Pro, ran it just sweet.