Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on January 18, 2002, 10:26:59 AM
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Have you seen a resurgence of Stick Stirrers?
The reason I ask, is that from my point of view (and some other people I talk too on RW/AHVoice) its becoming very common again.
For those of you that say "What is stick stirring??" Its a defensive manuever that takes advantage of lag and the net prediction code, to make an aircraft either miniwarp, or become very unpredictable in its flightpath. Its typically accomplished by moving your joystick rapidly in a circular motion similar to the way you stir a bowl of soup, and usually is accompanied by rapid rudder movements side to side. In real life, it would do nothing to the aircrafts flight path and be a nonfactor.
A good way to spot it, is to watch the aircraft at low speed as he manuevers defensively. If you see his tail wag back and forth like a fish swimming, and the plane tends to flop left and right rapidly, its a good bet the guy is "stirring" his stick. Alot of guys call the manuever the "floppy fish" cause it looks like a fish flopping around on the river bank.
Some planes do it better, some worse, and the opponents connect quality is also a factor. The worse the guy's connect is, the more effective this "game the game" flight manuever is. And no I'm not picking on Luftwobbles ;) The aircraft that brought this to mind was a P47, which I killed and I landed safely.
Yes, a while back HiTech introduced his anti-stick stirring routine into AH (which helped immensely when it was introduced), but its my understanding that this was "tuned" back when certain types of joysticks habitually spiked, invoking the routine.
So am I just encountering a few deviant "gamers" in the arena, or is this becoming a problem for the arena as a whole again?
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Its only effective when the servers suck, which they do. When HTC gets the servers *fixed* again, then its my belief that the stick stirring will be a non-factor once again.
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Ive noticed it alot this past month but I dont think its so stirring the stick as much as its the problematic connection HTC has had since trying to increase its bandwidth.
Sucks...Id rather have half the game and twice the playability then what weve had recently.
Hope the problem gets corrected soon.
Y
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Yeager, stick stirring is clearly noticeable and very different from poor connection because there is no warp effect.
You see the other one doing nonsense very quick nose moves, not scissoring, not barreling, not skyding, just chaotic nose moves that leads to nowhere. The effect is that the enemy doesn't suffer displacements, and what you see is his nose pointing everywhere.
Lately I've seen a lot of P51/47/38 doing that. Never saw that effect in the "supposed" newbie rides: Spits, N1KJ, La7 ...
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Alright, let me try this approach:
I havent seek any more of the classic stick stirring than is usual (not much).
What I have seen is the more manoeverable rides
doing their usual business but with these rediculous connects they are painting themselves all over the place. I mean entire seconds missing out of the data stream. Some might think that stick stirring is the cause of this (or as some have suggested, hacks) but Im stating that more than likely its the sh*tty conx which are responsible for the "more that usual" incidence of suspected stick stirring.
The Z&B planes arent suffering nearly as bad as the T&B planes but hell, Ive seen PNZRs and M3s warp back and fourth hundreds of yards at a time this past month at a much higher than usual rate. My connect has been pretty much nominal.
No unusual change.
I think that says it all for me.
Y
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I have seen this occuring at a more frequent rate.I'm a relative newby to AH,and as such I, don't feel that my input is as important as some of you older hands.I was fighting a Pony 1vs1,in a P38.I gained the advantage,and was about to dispatch the foe,when he went into some of the wildest moves I ever seen in my several years of online simming.I managed to stay close to him all the way to the deck,but shooting would been a waste of ammo.He of course eventually left me in the dust,end of fight.
I have often wondered why people resort to such tactics.Surely they realise that using cheats,only solidifies the fact that they are inept in their abilities.I guess it takes all kinds,and you will always have a few different ones.Ten percenter's is what called them in the USMC.
I enjoy AH a lot,and I won't let a few chislers ruin my fun.They are the ones that have to look in the mirror.
Dobe
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"So am I just encountering a few deviant "gamers" in the arena."
There are more people in the arena and more newbies. This behaviour has some effectiveness and it is easy to discover by accident without necessarily realizing that you are causing microwarps, so probably more of it is being seen just because there are more people around.
As far as the "deviant" part.... I can hardly imagine any MOL guy commenting on encountering deviant gamers. Your RW channel is filled with them, and this cannot come as a surprise. If you wouldn't fly in proximity to your squaddies then the problem would no doubt be greatly reduced. In particular I would recommend avoiding LLB.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Hooligan
As far as the "deviant" part.... I can hardly imagine any MOL guy commenting on encountering deviant gamers. Your RW channel is filled with them, and this cannot come as a surprise. If you wouldn't fly in proximity to your squaddies then the problem would no doubt be greatly reduced. In particular I would recommend avoiding LLB.
Hooligan
I think some clairification is in order...or at least a smiley face.
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>>>If you see his tail wag back and forth like a fish swimming, and the plane tends to flop left and right rapidly, <<<<
....Then blow his dweebish arse to the nether regions of AH with your guns:D
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>>>but Im stating that more than likely its the sh*tty conx which are responsible for the "more that usual" incidence of suspected stick stirring. <<<<
Because I came over here from AW, I find it easy to recognize erratic flight from anything else. The servers over at AW were awful, and I saw all kinds of warps and lag. The servers we currently have in AH are becoming as bad as they were at AW.
Dumps were commonplace and warping, blanks and disappearing aircraft were too.
Good news is, HT and Pyro were once AW pilits and have first hand experiences with this kind of thing also.
I'm betting my money they won't let this continue for much longer.
Note: for those who get hives at the mere mention of AIRWARRIOR, :D I only brought it up for a comparison.
Please forgive the momentary lapse ;)
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>>>I enjoy AH a lot,and I won't let a few chislers ruin my fun.They are the ones that have to look in the mirror. <<<
Chances are they will have rigged their mirrors too :D
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You guys should read Pyros post. The servers at tpl are going to be moved back here once the new pipes are in. They are ordered and we are working as fast as we can to get them up.
I beleive this will cure most connect issues, as we seem to have had good luck before HTC had to move to tpl.
Just hang in there, it will get better. If it doesn't, then you can drag me out into the yard, ...tar and feather me, and feed me to the FDB's :)
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"I think some clairification is in order...or at least a smiley face.
__________________
Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure"
wow.. A touchy "Minion Of Lucifer".... things have really gone downhill since they put ol popeye in the home...
lazs
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"As far as the "deviant" part.... I can hardly imagine any MOL guy commenting on encountering deviant gamers."
LLB is not a gamer.
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Hey Skuzzy !
While I definitely won't say that connect quality has been down lately, I honestly don't think what I'm seeing is soley an issue of bad connects.
These connects are moderately smooth, but the con's are showing the distinct "fingerprints" of stick stirring. Once you learn to spot it, its quite distinctive.
Of course the bad connects just make the issue even worse. ;)
A "deviant" MOL ? Hell... Deviancy is requirement #1 to even be considered for our squad :p
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Put Popeye in a "home"? I believe the term is "Political re-education." At last report Dago had him on a diet of rotting fish heads and set him to work digging a canal from Minneapolis St. Paul to Lake Michigan. No doubt Popeye will not be the first nor last MOL to lose a few fingers and toes to frostbite in the pursuit of political reliablity. OTOH it must be admitted that MOL makes an excellent training ground for future aces (those that get over the wire anyway). IMHO xmab is quite a good stick; its a wonder what you can do with modern prosthetics.
Hooligan
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"LLB is not a gamer."
Sorry pop :(. When I said "deviant gamers" I meant "gamey deviants".
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Don
>>>I enjoy AH a lot,and I won't let a few chislers ruin my fun.They are the ones that have to look in the mirror. <<<
Chances are they will have rigged their mirrors too :D
'Fraid some people regard even 'serious' flight sims like AH as just a game where anything goes as long as you win. And some, of course, don't know (and wouldn't care if they did) that stick stirring like that in RL would:
1. Be impossible at high speed because of the physical effort required to move the controls .
2. Result in tearing the wings off or blacking yourself out at lower speeds.
3. If neither of the above apply, would result in rapid loss of airspeed and giving the fight to the oponent.
It would be nice if AH could pick up such inputs and penalise the player appropriately but that's asking a bit much, I guess.
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"Deviancy is requirement #1 to even be considered for our squad "
Absolutely :)
Westy
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Aye, Xmab, we knew him well. When last we saw him he was coloring in "areas" on a map, and mumbling something about a "bloody blue coffin".
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Whaaaaaaaat?
Originally posted by Vermillion
Its typically accomplished by moving your joystick rapidly in a circular motion similar to the way you stir a bowl of soup, and usually is accompanied by rapid rudder movements side to side. In real life, it would do nothing to the aircrafts flight path and be a nonfactor
I can guarantee you that if you stick stirr or stirr stick or whatever in a real aircraft you're going to know it and it could even kill you e.g. there is a strong suspicion that erratic pilot input caused the crash of AA587 Now, getting back to real life every account of evasive maneuvers by fighter pilots involves crazy bellybutton maneuvers like you describe e.g. Hartman used a cross controlled technique to point the aircraft noce in one direction while letting the aircraft fly in another. Just the other night I heard Don Blakelee P51 Ace describe evading 109s by doing snap rolls (full down elevator, full left or right stick movement and opposite rudder all done "fast". Really a shame that if one does what one would do in real life the damn net is going to show it as an attempt at cheating. I'm getting rapidly discouraged here.
Beeg
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Originally posted by Hooligan
Sorry pop :(. When I said "deviant gamers" I meant "gamey deviants".
Hooligan
Thanks Hooligan, just was wonderin'
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Um Sorry Beeg, but we're discussing totally different things.
With a computer joystick, you have no stick forces to deal with and can move the control surfaces instantaneously, plus even the AT-6 Texan I flew had considerable inertia (imagine how much more a loaded P51 or P47 would weigh) compared to what we fly.
When I tried to "stickstir" in it, it barely made the plane wobble.
Actually cross control manuevers are very effective in AH, and are realistic. In fact a "bunt" the Hartmann manuever your discussing is one of my favorites.
But we're discussing totally different things.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
You guys should read Pyros post. The servers at tpl are going to be moved back here once the new pipes are in. They are ordered and we are working as fast as we can to get them up.
I beleive this will cure most connect issues, as we seem to have had good luck before HTC had to move to tpl.
Just hang in there, it will get better. If it doesn't, then you can drag me out into the yard, ...tar and feather me, and feed me to the FDB's :)
mmmmmm, skuuuuzzyyyy wiiiinnngggsss
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Jeeze... why we tip-toeing around this issue??
Stick stirring is BACK, enhanced by server troubles (WHEN is this gonna be fixed???) and now we got a whole buncha folks here from 'other places' where stick stirring was defensive manuver numbah fediddlein ONE. Whelp, now they are here in droves... and so is stick stirring.
:mad:
Dweebery.. gone ramapant!
HTC, PLEASE, restore the anti-stick stir code!
thanks..
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I never saw that message before the last patch, now I see it two or three times a night.
I AM NOT ! stirring my stick.
I have asked about this on the board and been told its a Gameport problem and there are four possible solutions.
Stick adjustment in deadbands and dampeners... tried it .. didnt work
New sound card.. havnt tried that yet.
New dedicated game port.. havnt tried that yet.
or a USB joystick.. I have one otw.
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Only stick stirring I've ever done caused my eyesight to wane and this is why the enemy is mostly on my 6 :D
Beeg
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Ive seen some sinister warps out there but what every one discribes as stick stirring seems to be a spitfire stall tactict to blow your shots and force an overshoot. Didn't know it was a cheat seemed to be just part of a dweeb ride. the only planes ive seen do it are dweebmobiles biult on turning and mostly by dedicated dweebfire pilots. then again I only fly in the HTH arena's till we get good CT arena's (ETO/PTO) with a better plane set and the MA perk system dies.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Just hang in there, it will get better. If it doesn't, then you can drag me out into the yard, ...tar and feather me, and feed me to the FDB's :)
....careful bud. Bring the FDB's to this BBQ and your more likely to get raped than eaten, or at least raped first. :D
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Originally posted by Beegerite
Whaaaaaaaat?
I can guarantee you that if you stick stirr or stirr stick or whatever in a real aircraft you're going to know it and it could even kill you e.g. there is a strong suspicion that erratic pilot input caused the crash of AA587 Now, getting back to real life every account of evasive maneuvers by fighter pilots involves crazy bellybutton maneuvers like you describe e.g. Hartman used a cross controlled technique to point the aircraft noce in one direction while letting the aircraft fly in another. Just the other night I heard Don Blakelee P51 Ace describe evading 109s by doing snap rolls (full down elevator, full left or right stick movement and opposite rudder all done "fast". Really a shame that if one does what one would do in real life the damn net is going to show it as an attempt at cheating. I'm getting rapidly discouraged here.
Beeg
There's a big difference between "wild" but controlled manuever and joslting your joystick all over the place knowing it will make you look like a complete moron in the game ...errr....knowing it will produce an effect that is not consistent with fair gameplay.
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Stick stirring huh? Well, I guess that's what I ran into last night on a 109... wondered what he was doing, and my bad connect didn't help much either. He did almost force the overshoot though, so maybe I misread what he was doing... something for the anti stick stirring folks to think about there. I have been known to hit the flaps and go into a climbing barrel roll to lose some speed, hoping for the overshoot, and this prolly looks pretty erratic sometimes. But hey, it works often enough to keep me doing it! So, call that cheesy manoever whatever you want, but I'll still keep doing it :p ! Oh, btw... from what you describe as stirring... not only do I try not to do that (stay smooth or die, hehe), if I did try it, my stick would spike and auger me :mad: yup, usb stick otw here too...
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I've got the stick stirring message only twice since I became a paying customer.. Both times I was gunning in a lancaster. I was using rudder to make evasive moves and trying to track the enemy at the same time - that seemed to be enough to trigger the thing.
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Yup stick stirring is happening a lot more. I think its more the newbies than the connects.
Some of the newbie stick stirring is hilarious, from the 190s roll as fast as the can along the z axis without actually deviating from their path to the LA7s that do the slick kick everything til they roll into the ground move.
Honestly, the number of times I've just sat behind them, not fired, and waited for them to kiss a tree or plough a field and come away with a kill has increased 10 fold.
to the stickstirring newbies, keep it up, its doing wonders for my k/d ratio :D
p.s I noticed the ohmygodi'vecompressed "does the xxxx have dive breaks" crowd has increased in the same proportion :)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Honestly, the number of times I've just sat behind them, not fired, and waited for them to kiss a tree or plough a field and come away with a kill has increased 10 fold.
Now that's a useful tip. Except that if they'r in a faster plane they can still run away while doing this stupid stuff.
And as the originator (sort of) of this thread, thanks for all the helpful replies.