Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Beeking on February 01, 2001, 02:18:00 AM
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I met a F4u flying lower than me and in a HO position. I dived (109g10 with gondolas and around 3/4 main fuel) about 350mph, made a fast pass and imediately started a vertical zoom up. He made a fast flat right turn and started zooming behind me. He gained distance and about 400yards he started firing and blow me up.
Come on...
Ok i was with gondolas and 3/4 main fuel. But i had much more energy than him when i started climbing. Must be alienigen technology...
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Been there, done that... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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This ability to turn 180 degrees after HO and still catch you (going level around 300mph wep on) is not only a f4u feature..
I dont dare to say which other planes are known to do it.. It's an endless subject to my whine on the arenas however. I just can't understand how its possible.. A flat HARD turn 180 around should burn a huge amount of energy and speed, unless the plane is mounted on steel rails (even then it would slow down more than it does in AH atm.)
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Pirado,
What you need to do is to fly past the merge for a second longer. By delaying that extra second you force the merging enemy to reverse their direction hard, bleeding a lot of energy in the process. At that point you go up, forcing them to make yet another vector change, this time with gravity having the greatest effect. From this point hammerhead them, because they will not last.
The key is to force the enemy into 2 vector changes to your one.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 02-01-2001).]
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Got film? I would like to see it..there are alot of factors that could equate into this situation...also, I believe Pyro made a statement about high alt E states in the F4U...I'll see if I can find that statement..
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The F4U isn't the one to worry about. I've got alot of stick time in the -1C and some in the -1D and the only way I've never reversed and caught up to someone like I had a JATO unit on the kite. If they do something dumb and do a hard pull up into the vert thier arse is mine, but that's thier fault for misjudging my E. Dinnae always assume that a turn was as hard as you think it was.
The N1K is the real monster in this situation. Leonid using that tactic against an N1K will get your bellybutton filled with 20mm shells as you start to kick the rudder. There's not a kite in the current inventory that could pull that off on an N1K with a decent pilot in the 'pit
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Was it Torque that got you??
He is the best at hiding his E-state. He waits for people to make a run at him and then follows them upstairs. He has done it to me many times. My advice is not to go hard vertical. Do a low G pull, if you go straight up you are making it very easy to get in gun range.
FYI, it is very hard to tell the difference between 300MPH and 400MPH bogie in an HO. But it makes a huge difference when you are trying to go ballistic.
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Yep, Leo
Sometimes i use to do a 45 degreese soft turn on the merge before pass and after a not too soft pull (4Gs) to zoom vertical up.
But this time i didnt a horizontal separation.
Used to do hammerheads with my 109 in WB, but here this 109 wont make it well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Can someone explain how to do a hammerhead with the 109g10 (real hammerhead, not a strange stall on the top, like happens very often).
I dont remember if it was Torque flying the F4U.
Also, a strange thing happened to me flying the F4U offline. I started zooming up until it stalls and when it happened, the plane didnt come nose down. Just kept the tail down and came until hit the ground like a helicopter. I tryed all the commands i know to make this plane err.. i mean, this... this.. ahhhh. Nothing worked. A nice stall bug?
Next time im gonna make a film.
ah! I was checking my score of 2weeks trial and look that:
*killed by F4U1C - 23
N1K2 - 12
Panzer- 22 lol
now
*Kills of F4U1C - 19
F4U1D - 11
N1K2 - 21
P51D - 17
(the other planes have very low results thats why i did not post)
This 4 last listed planes r not the UBER ones??????
Thats why people flies it more often...
damn.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
This is a game, all planes must have a little diference to make things more uniform. Nodoby will win a war with the best plane. We dont need few best planes and lots of lemme say.. normal ones. We need all normals.
This is my honest opinion...
forgive my english and dont shoot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pirado
[This message has been edited by Beeking (edited 02-01-2001).]
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Ripsnort,
I have film of you and that one horned sheep at A1 in a very compromising posistion!
Should I post it?
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS.
Definately fly well past the F4U after the merge. Play it safe.
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Ok… I may be tipping my hand, but you are describing a situation I love to be in. This works best for me in the N1K, but I have done it in the 4U.
Situation: You are level with me or just above and taking the HO.
In either situation I’ll go nose down just a little to draw you down and bring your E up. At the same time I’ll be cutting my throttle as to try and stabilize my E. At about 600 to 900 yards, I cut throttle even more and go vertical, setting up an Immelman (spelling may be wrong, still know what it is). Most pilots will jerk the stick back to try and lead a shot on me. Oops, too much E, cant pull it up as tight, and by the time you do, I’m reversed, level, full throttle with WEP, and spitting lead behind you!
If the opponent extends with out pulling up immediately, I’m then waiving goodbye as the mark speeds off. Maybe next time, hehe. The flat turn you mentioned may be using some of the same ideas; however, I personally haven't done it.
Zippatuh
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Caveman,Actually, what I'm talking about is in response to planes like the niki, that can hold e-states well since 1.04. It works very well against nikis, and I have hammered many a niki this tour doing what I described in my previous post. We're talking 1st merge, even. There are no real hard maneuvers in what I am talking about, except at the top when I hammerhead. The key is that they have to follow. And the pilot has nothing to do with it, except if he's smart, sees where the zoom is taking him, and abruptly breaks down.
Pirado, to hammerhead well in a La-5FN, or Yak-9U you need to keep the throttle & rpm up. Don't idle the engine, or it'll mush out. Keep throttle up, let speed drop to around 150ias, then kick respective rudder. It'll turn over fairly quickly. I'm sure it'll work for the 109 too.
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Thanks Leo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pir
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Been there, cursed that too. Still do.
I refuse to believe ANY plane can do a real hard 360 degree turn to avoid my 500 mph dive and still have E to not only climb AFTER my 45 degree zooming up P-38 (which has one of the best zoom climbs) but also catches up QUITE quickly..as if that turn had done nothing to its E, or if the climb did not affect it.
Last night Bug322 and I were in 50% fuel low ammo P-38s and attacked a N1k that was 8k below us. Both P-38's were not only followed repeatedly in the vertical zoom climb by the N1k (which had turned a LOT to avoid TWO planes bouncing it), but the N1k also cought up with one of them and shot it down, and then kept turning and zooming up after the other P-38 (mine) and shot it down too.
BS. Smeared & putrid BS.
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Beeking, part of the problem is that the maneuver you made after the merge is so predictable. Many 109 drivers pull up vertically and hang on their prop before dropping down - my experience shows approx 90% of the time. By performing a lead turn before the merge, I can gain angles in a moderate turn then convert to the vertical with a low G pullup to preserve E. It is then fairly easy to close the distance with the 109 hanging there nose up and slowing. The key for me is to appear slow with a low E state by not pulling up at the merge immediately - the 109 will often extend his climb allowing time to get my nose on his airplane. Basicly, he stayed fast as you slowed down. The most difficult 109's to catch are ones that reverse beyond my turning circle then pull the nose back down before they slow significantly. A second neutral head-on merge is the likely result in this case. Bleed his E before you expend all of yours.
MiG
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hog dosent bleed e nearly enough adn handles like it weighs like a zeke. dont get me started on torque and hex editors
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It's very easy to get shot down in the vertical by those two planes if you only manuver in one direction in the vertical. Even if only 1.5G's, keep trying to manuver, even if a stall is unavoidable, because that's often enough (with a lil' rudder, lil roll) to keep the F4U pulling too, to the point where it flicks out in that nasty little tail spin it's capable of. The N1K2 is going to have to work alot harder to land hits as well. But if you stall going near straight up, or remain in the climb as he follows you up, all these two planes have to do is add a bit of rudder and steady the nose for a kill blow.
If possible, a zoom climb faked into a vertical eight will pop the boogers every time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
There is no escaping Murphy's Law!
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/tiger.gif)
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Originally posted by -towd_:
hog dosent bleed e nearly enough adn handles like it weighs like a zeke. dont get me started on torque and hex editors
Nonsense. In my mind, the Hog is one of the easier planes to kill in AH. It's not particularly fast, and it doesn't turn particularly well except for the initial turn. It does roll nicely (great for scissors), and the F4U-1C packs a real punch, but that's about it.
They're fodder for Typhoons IMO.
-- Todd/DMF
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Hmmm... Im a bit higher, diving over the enemy, getting alot of energy and pulling up.
Hes basicaly at low E level flight, lower, pull up and catch me.
eh...
Its not about how to do the merge. Its about that the ONLY PLANES THIS DAMN THING HAPPENS IS THE DAMNED F4U AND THE N1K2!? AAAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I tryed F4u and N1K2 AND ITS JUST A JOKE!! VERY EASY, ANY BABY CAN FLY IT AND GET LOTS OF KILLS...
It cant be right. C A N T.
oh my God... i need some time away from games.. its driving me crazy...
bah!
ok ok Pirado, calm down... relax... easy easy... take a deep breath, close ur eyes...
Listen... u r not a programmer, u dont understand anything about it, u r just a poor addicted, u need help.
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Stop the easy meat non sense show off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
The corsair is pretty fast, it outruns my P47 at low alt. It's like any plane, if flown the way it's supposed to be flown, it's a killer.
Check KBman stats who flies Chog only. He comes in, make passes aiming for the snap shots thx to the powerfull guns, turnfight a little if "it looks safe", then run when it starts to get nasty, grab and come back. That may be frustrating, but that's the way to fly a Chog and he is doing great in it.
What make u think it's easy meat is the horde of dweebs who fly it because they can get "instant reward" thank to those few ping deaths but have very little clue of ACM stuff.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy:
Stop the easy meat non sense show off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
The Hog IS easy meat relative to most of the planes in AH, at least in a 1v1, co-alt, co-E situation.
And you'll know if I'm showing off; I wasn't.
The corsair is pretty fast, it outruns my P47 at low alt. It's like any plane, if flown the way it's supposed to be flown, it's a killer. [/b]
I think that goes without saying. However, I was responding to Towd's assertion that the Hog turns like a Zeke and exhibits otherwise extraterrestrial properties. That's not true, and someone who flies it that way is asking for a spanking.
Check KBman stats who flies Chog only. He comes in, make passes aiming for the snap shots thx to the powerfull guns, turnfight a little if "it looks safe", then run when it starts to get nasty, grab and come back. That may be frustrating, but that's the way to fly a Chog and he is doing great in it.[/b]
Such a technique works well in just about any plane. It works particularly well in the cannon Hog because all you need is one hit to remove a wing.
What make u think it's easy meat is the horde of dweebs who fly it because they can get "instant reward" thank to those few ping deaths but have very little clue of ACM stuff.[/b]
Hm. Nope, though these hordes of dweebs surely do give the cannon Hog a bad name. However, I stand by my statement that Towd is incorrect about the flight characteristics of the Hog insofar as dogfighting goes. Except for the great guns, it's a mediocre dogfighter that does its best work in the first turn or two. I'd rank it right near the Typhoon in dogfighting ability... a bit poorer in sustained turnrate, but a lot better in roll rate.
-- Todd/DMF
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Another victim of vertical lead turns...
Hint: he's not flying faster than you, he's just traveling along a shorter distance.
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I've whined a lot in the past about it. Now I've learned to live with it. The biggest problem is to judge the C-Hog's E state and attitude. If the Hog is fast sometimes 2-3K of alt advantage are not enuff to keep his 20mm shells away from you. Same thing when you attack ... you have always to be aware that he can pull up his nose and spray you with cannons. Now I know it and I've developed a special Situational Awareness for those kites, and Nikis as well. Fast Spitfire IXs and Typhoons can do also amazing things. Just be aware of it.
The biggest part of C-Hog drivers are green, especially those vulching fields from CV groups. They are not a big threat.
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I've yet to see one single film of a Hog or N1k2 doing anything "uber".
Ever notice that it's only "uber" to the guys that get shot down by it? You would think that at least ONE of these guys would be able to take that same plane offline and duplicate that feat and film it. Strange, I've never seen that.
I know it's tough to accept guys, but the truth is there is nothing uber about either the George or the Hog. All the hard evidence points to the FM's being correct, and I have not seen one shred of hard evidence that these planes have anything major wrong. In all of these "analogies" the protagonist just got his bellybutton handed to him by a better pilot and it's easier to scream "UBER" than it is to admit he blew it and died. I know, I've done the same thing myself, I'll admit it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's that whole ego thing, and we all have the same instinctive reaction, at least at first. Every time I've had that reaction, I've taken the plane in question and done a bit of testing in the TA in it. My conclusion is always that the planes are just fine, and that I flat got beat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The best thing to do is suck it up and ask the other fellow what your mistake was. If you are lucky he'll tell you and you might learn something. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Thanks for help gents
Looks like i need to expend more time in Training Arena.
Pirado
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It's my understanding that ht has stated that the niks numbers are not quite right when it comes to e retention and that they would work on it. Until its fixed I never rerverse from the vertical until I actually seen the niks nose drop. If it doesn't drop or appears to be gaining I drop my nose and run fer seperation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Crash,
What you REALLY have to watch out for is the smart pilots out there that will FAKE that move. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Cit did this to me last week in his P-38. I had been working a lower P-38, and after a few passes I went vertical in my Jug, he rolled back onto my tail and zoomed with me. At this point I am drooling, since it is a classic rope-a-dope and when he stalls below me he is going to die fast. I see his nose drop! I pull down for the kill and... the bastard turned around and killed me! D'oh. He had faked the stall and sucked me in.
A good N1k2 driver will fake the stall as well, and use his fantastic acceleration to gain E while he does it. A short 0 G dive looks very much like a stall if you are watching from above.
Even at the start of a fight, it is not that difficult to disguise your E. If I did not disguise my E in the Jug, I would get far fewer kills. I just use my flight path and altitude to conceal my E state. The most elementary form of this is to dive before entering icon range with the bogey and put your E into speed instead of alt. Then you try not to head directly at the bandit, but use lag pursuit to minimize closure. If you are lower and not closing at too great a rate, the enemy will normally mis-judge your energy state. This works well in any of the better high-speed handling planes like the Jug, the Hellcat, the Pony, and the FW that tend to retain energy well at high speed. Since your E state is normally judged mostly by altitude, you can disguise your true E state by using speed instead.
That, IMHO, is the root source of almost all of the reports like the ones outlined above. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Judging a bogey's energy state is one of the most difficult things to do in air combat. Add to that the fact that any veteran flight sim pilot will do his best to hide his true energy state, and you will find that you frequently mis-judge the energy state of the other guy.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-02-2001).]
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This thread should be <punt>ed back to the top! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Another good "fake" that I have used lately and it works surprisingly well is to do a lazy barrel roll when chasing a fleeing bogy who is just out of range of a good. lethal shot (1K-2K) but not too far gone in getting away. In thier view the range counter suddenly changes dramaticaly while they watch you in thier '"six" view and most pilots think you've reversed and given up. When in actuality nothing of the sort happened. Most times these folks think they are now able to turn the tables on you and become the attacker. Well, when they move, up left, right - whatever, they blow their distance cushion rather quick as they turn back at you. Usually it's too late that they discover their error.
Well.... It's a new trick to me anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Good one Westy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Although, as a Jug pilot, I'm normally the chasee not the chaser. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anybody esle with some good "fake" moves or ways to hide your true energy state?
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Thanks Lephturn. I'ld like to add, so it doesn't appear to be pure "gaming the game" via cashing in on the unreality of the icon, that the bogy also sees your nose change direction in the roll and that is what I think puts the nail in the coffin, so to speak. But you I cannot lie and say that this is not using the icon unrealistically. If there was no icon, this move probably would not work most of the time.
-Westy
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I like rudder/roll combos when in the P-47, 1D, P-51, P-38, and FW's, using them to fake out the G pullers like the Spit and N1K2. As they blow that energy to get a snap shot, my E stat stays relatively the same, so when they flounder out I'm ready to capitalize (hehe Creamo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Moo! to fanatics, Neigh! to everyone else.
-- Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
Dirty Turd Poop Group www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Wel, it was your guncam movies that you made back in AW, a couple of years ago, Jigster that helped me learn to fly the P-47 there. And "there" provide me a good stepping off point for here.
-Westy
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Beeking i know how you feel about this sort of thing but i have to say i dont think the F4u is very(if at all) overmodelled ,its just we have a very late plane that was one of the last of the prop planes and was truelly a monster.I think in this fight you described those gondalas would make a difference (20-30kph reduction in speed i believe?) plus drag and as stated before you may have been fighting a good pilot and just got plain complacent, I know i do sometimes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).When you have 3 or 4 easy fights with a certain plane you begin to ignore them as a threat,this is usually the time you meet an excellent pilot who shows you some new tricks!.
I just feel the f4c is too powerfull to be so readily available.
now im going to be honest here!
I think its an easy plane to fly.It has a few tricky querks but easily avoided once flown a few times.Its guns are (and feel) far more potent than most other planes with similar performance(not loadout).I fly 190a8 and never really use 4x20mm but when i have they do feel as powerfull but they are harder to hit with i think(bullet drop?) and the performance of the 190 is terrible with 4x20's.It is in effect the perfect choice for jabo purely on its ord loadout and you can hit planes with those guns at greater ranges with less effort than it takes in a plane with a similar gun loadout.
Im not saying the F4c wasnt like this,it probably was but because of the ease you can run up kills in it,it has become far too common in the MA.
I dont think there is a solution to this problem though.Perks may work and im willing to try it to find out and as a gesture to show you all im not just out to get the f4c id agree to perking my favourite ride the 190a8 if they go ahead and perk the f4c.I cant say fairer than that.
We need to try new stuff and see what the MA runs like THEN decide whether its working.
roll on perking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hazed
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Well with the AW Jug, the only way you were going to get the jump on anything was leaving the pitch axis alone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Same basic principle from that old Jug stuff, along with the Vader stuff... while the other guy is doing that barrel role thingy, you stay within "the barrel" doing an airshow style aileron roll. It gives the appearence that your outturning them, and I've seen a few guys go into tantrums after getting whacked that way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've only seen a few other people use something simular, Frenchy, Drex, and Nath being the few I can think of offhand.
It's just funny to be -- say in a P-47, lock horns with a N1K2, let him whittle away his energy that way, then suddenly pull straight up, rudder over, and pop him as his nose drops (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm getting in the awful habit of doing that in the TBM now, and it has some wonderful result (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Bess