Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Rude on January 21, 2002, 09:14:36 AM
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Well, the 13th TAS's P-38 experiment went well.
IMHO, this is a great ride. To my suprise, it requires more patience to fly than does the Mustang, that is if you want to live.:)
I enjoyed great success in it until the Mindanao Terrain...then I died repeatedly. With the elevated fields and constant stream of higher enemy, I found that I made better food than foe. I just did not have the patience to bug when enemy were inbound and climb back up above those elevated fields...thus I got ganged alot.
As far as it's flight characteristics, I found them excellent...it turns well and holds it E nicely. It climbs much harder than the Mustang and dives out as well. Visibility was an adjustment from driving the Pony full time, but it did not take long to get used to it. The guns were the best suprise, as we were not used to such potent firepower...cannons make me smile:)
All in all, I would recommend this plane highly to anyone who wants a challenge...with some practice, it is highly lethal if flown correctly and handles both the fighter and fighter bomber roles exceptionally well.
All I have to say other than the above is....I'm so glad to be back in the Mustang:D
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Rude,
Ya mean I went around killing Mustangs hoping 1 would be you, and you were flying Lightings?????? WTF Man?? :)
Swag
PS. I for one am not glad to see you back in a Mustang!!
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It pains me to do so, but I agree with you :D
Lately my rides have all been JABO, I've been rotating between the P-38 (2 1ks and rockets), the Mossie (2x 500 + rockets) and the P47D-30 (2x 1k 1x 500 8 rocket).
The P38 has much better visibility than the Mossie, but up high, once you've shed the ordinance, the P38 can really kick some bellybutton *IF* you have the alt advantage. Its similar to the P-51 in that it can generally keep its speed up.
However, down low, the Mossie is simply incredible. It eats fellow Spitfires up nicely.
As for the P47. Well, she likes gas A LOT and once at alt, all that ordinance is awesome for softening a city. The 8 50 cals are sweet. The armor is quite something too. I've found this P47 to be a lot of fun clearing out GVs. Without ordinance and up to alt, its a fun dogfighter too. You just have to get beyond its barely-faster-than-a-Lancaster climb rate :)
But I kept finding myself back in either the P38 or P51 in JABO roles last night. The P51 can really handle a nice dive bomb mission (I think I sunk that fleet off P7 6 times with it! Survived almost every attack!) P-38 is a it trickier with its compression and such, even with dive flaps out.
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did you guys fly the 38 more than one day? If you did I missed it. I would understand tho if you were "avoiding" my low, uber -1a.
lazs
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A P-51 pilot's observations of a P-38 (from the P-51)
Lower = choice 2 in easy kill targets
Higher = make them commit to a dive, get them to compress, pull up and leave them low. (See Lower)
Co-E = go nose-to-nose, roll around the axis near the merge to avoid face full of .50s and 20mm. High banking turn, roll into them, dive under them, high banking turn. Repeat as necessary until they are lower. (See Lower)
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I ran into the 13th during their P-38 test. The P-38 is not able to contend with a P-51.
Fatz and I were flying around 17K or so when 4x P-38s engaged us from our high 6. Fatz was AFK, so he was lost.
I started fighting in long high speed passes, but was unable to saddle up for a kill shot due to the 13th wingman skills. On several occasions, I was put into a disadvantaged position, but the P-51s superior speed and manuverability got me clear.
The P-38, like the P-51 needs a good wingman to score kills in a high threat environment. If it uses its E to turn with a target, it becomes an easy target. Without speed, it's dead meat.
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The 38 is a 51 killer... if the 51 playes the 38's game. I'd say its more of a pilot thingy though over all. I'm sure quite a few 51 jockies love see a 38 as much as I do a 51. :)
xBAT
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I ran into the 13th during their P-38 test. The P-38 is not able to contend with a P-51.
Midnight....
You should by no means judge the 38 based on an encounter with a group of guys flying a plane which we had never flown before. Half of this tour we used to try things in that plane which we had no idea whether or not they would work. Within our squad, we deemed this tour as a goof off tour for a different kind of fun:)
Trust me, there are guys who can kill a Mustang easily in the 38. Now if the Mustang does not commit to the fight, well that's another story.
Btw, I checked the stats after posting this and found that we had no real problem dealing with the 412th in our 38's....perhaps the training arena might be a good place for you guys to sharpen your skills against the 38?:p
Lazs....
We flew it until the 16th I believe...I just couldn't stand it any longer and ran back to the Mustang. as far as your 1a is concerned, you will have to fight in a sector which is reachable by Bishops in order for you and me to dance...frankly, me thinks your sceeerd:D
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Midnight...
I was in that one with you and Fatz. One of us is having selective recall if you think we started out above you.
I'll just say I bet it's pretty rare ANYONE in AH starts out above you. :)
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rude.... I admit it... i'm skeerd but if anyone else asks it is because I get nosebleeds easily.
I also think that flying any plane other than a ee 51 and running into midnight above you more often will help you with that "perspective" thing.
lazs
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Ya know, this thread started out well but took a turn for the worse somewhere down the line....now all I want to know is:
Who's dick is bigger? Lasz's, Midnight's or Rude's? :)
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dingy... cant speak for the other two but... I believe this would be a good time to tell you that I am straight.
oh.... can i still keep the flowers and candy?
lazs
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Heyas Lazs!
Truthfully, the 13th is under 8k 99% of the time....tried to find ya a couple of times and I couldn't. Don't even see f4u's in the arena hardly.
Tell ya what, the next time you're up, let me know where you're dancin at and we'll join ya for some of this fun your always talkin about:)
I got a feelin that when we do hook up, you will be lookin for every advantage you can find...we may be more alike than you're aware of.
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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rude... maybe but.... you are skirting the real issue here stubby... I bet you didn't get any candy or flowers did ya?
lazs
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I found the 38 to be an exceptionally fun ride. I hated the 38 when it first arrived in AH but I suspect it has been "matured" in the FM department since Beta. It drives very nicely throughout the envelope. Compression still seems overbaked but it makes the ride a real challenge until one gets used to maintaining good speed top to bottom.
I love the 51 for its speed but the 38 packs a hell of a punch and works better in tight spots down low where the 51 strains to remain stable. Still, if all the cards are on the table and the stakes are high, its the P51 that will get me through a sortie with a high degree of probability.
For the last tour I had 87 kills in the P38L with 5 of those kills being P51Ds and was killed 1 time by P51Ds.
Y
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Originally posted by Toad
Midnight...
I was in that one with you and Fatz. One of us is having selective recall if you think we started out above you.
I'll just say I bet it's pretty rare ANYONE in AH starts out above you. :)
Are you ok, Toad?
Fatz was AFK the entire time. If we were above you when the fight started, please tell me how ygsMilo was able to zoom in from behind us, over shoot Fatz and have enough energy to go around again and kill him, all while I was still 3k below and 2.5k or so behind?
So the answer is, that I am NOT the one with selective recall.
Rude...
I was complimenting the 13th's teamwork skills to highlight why none of your 38s got shot down by me in that fight. However, film would show that I was able to get bullets into at least 2 of your 38s.
The stats show 5 - 2 in 13th favor for TOD 24, and 0 - 1 for the 412th in TOD 23. Subtract the Fatz AFK kill and that's only 4 - 3.
Anyhow, if you would like to dance, how about a 412th vs. 13th mosh pit event :D Dueling arena, 8 - vs- 8.
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On a 1-1 co alt the P38 has the advantage over the pony. Better climb, better accel below 200mph, better turn radius.
On 1-1 with 51 higher, the 38 still holds a nominal advantage. If the 38 lets the p51 bounce him 2 or 3 times the p51 will usually either break off and get away or commit to some type of turning fight..where it loses. I kill more p51's that bounce me than when I bounce P-51s or than when im co-alt with them.
On 1-1 with 51 lower, the 38 is more at a disadvantage than at an advantage. It makes the 38 get lower to do a high speed attack on the p51, which can easily turn to evade, dive to 500mph, leave the 38 behind and at d5.0 it can zoom up , get higher than the 38 (which has bled from 500ish on his attack dive to around 300'ish because of its poor E-retention before the pony gets beyond d3.0) and proceed to do the typical dive to 500, spray from d600 on the low nose HO pass (making 38 lose more alt meeting or evading the HO), zoom past the merge at 500mph, get to d5.0), repeat... theres almost no defense against this except to meet and win the HO or disengage to the deck
The 38 MUST try to make the pony commit into turning and NOT dive with the p51, and do a power climb the moment the p-51 dives away.... Thats all the trick theres to beating a pony.
"Lower = choice 2 in easy kill targets"
Not on a 1-1 in my experience. You may have an easy time bouncing 38's that are being swarmed by everything else out there (read:spits).
We all know, in a sector with 50 fighters; 25 spits, 10 la7's, 8 niks, 2 109's, 3 190's, 1 205, 1 yak , 1 goon and 1 P-38... and all the possible red icons, including the red goon, dive to kill the P-38 :D :D :D
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Ponies are tasty. I like mine medium rare :D
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I don't base my observations on the one encounter with your guys Rude.
Tour 15: Midnight has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 16: Midnight has 6 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 17: Midnight has 10 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 18: Midnight has 5 kills and has been killed 3 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 19: Midnight has 8 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 20: Midnight has 11 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 21: Midnight has 4 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 22: Midnight has 11 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 23: Midnight has 22 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 24: Midnight has 13 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Originally posted by Tac
The 38 MUST try to make the pony commit into turning and NOT dive with the p51, and do a power climb the moment the p-51 dives away.... Thats all the trick theres to beating a pony.
"Lower = choice 2 in easy kill targets"
Not on a 1-1 in my experience. You may have an easy time bouncing 38's that are being swarmed by everything else out there (read:spits).
Tac, I have to disagree with your observations. I'll post a film when I get home.
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hehehhe.. enjoyed this thread immensely.
I've seen just about every possible combination of peee38 v p51d encounter possible... and I gotta say... results inconclusive.
I tend to get bounced alot.. and i also do a lotta bouncing. I find the p51 tends to bounce 1.7 times and tumble on impact, whereas the pee38 tends to lawndart with no bounce at all.
In those circumstances where I find myself actually turning with one.. I can kill it pretty easy. If on the other hand the guy whips his nose up and acts like a G10 in trouble, I tend to start sweating. thats where i found out that p51's bounce 1.7 times on average..
;)
lazs, not to worry. F4u's bounce about the same as ponys.
:D
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Im tending to agree with Hangtime about the bouncing bit.
1.7 bounces sounds just about right for 51s whereas 38s simply stick to the terrain as with velcro.
Y
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T24:
Tac has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-38L against the P-51B.
Tac has 9 kills and has been killed 5 times in the P-38L against the P-51D.
T23:
Tac has 26 kills and has been killed 13 times in the P-38L against the P-51D.
Tac has 5 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-38L against the P-51B.
T22:
Tac has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the P-38L against the P-51B.
Tac has 20 kills and has been killed 9 times in the P-38L against the P-51D.
T21:
Tac has 12 kills and has been killed 7 times in the P-38L against the P-51D
Tac has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-38L against the P-51B.
T20:
Tac has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-38L against the P-51B.
Tac has 22 kills and has been killed 13 times in the P-38L against the P-51D.
T19:
Tac has 44 kills and has been killed 18 times in the P-38L against the P-51D.
Tac has 3 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-38L against the P-51B.
T18:
Tac has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the P-38L against the P-51B.
Tac has 11 kills and has been killed 5 times in the P-38L against the P-51D.
And please, bear in mind that the 38 was a singleping o' deathtrap until this version came along (T23 or 22? $@# memory), and that P-51 is far more survivable than the 38 in the MA gangbanging thanks to its capability to r... err.. "extend".
Pony's only tend to be able to get me when im engaged with some other fighter or tangled with a mess of cons. Only very few pony pilots (rude! $#@$@# :D ) make me wish I had taken more aspirin on the morning. ;)
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Film as promised.
It's good to be one of the few :D
Watch as Midnight single handedly gives Tac and LAZER a silk elevator ride.
No furball, no other engaged cons, just Midnight, Tac and LAZER.
(http://www.brauncomustangs.org/JPEGs/P51-P38.jpg)
http://www.brauncomustangs.org/ZIPs/2xP38kills.zip
I watched it again from another angle. FulzGold made one pass at Tac as he was stalling in a rope-a-dope.
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I think what it all boils down to.. Is who is the 51 driver and how does he fly his aircraft. And who is the 38 driver and how does he fly his aircraft..
To be good in any aircraft in AH or real life for that matter.
You have to live, sleep ,eat that aircraft till it is apart of you.. A good 38 driver will know how to handle his aircaft. But a great 38 will know all its secrets and weaknesses.
And this this holds true to all aircraft.. A good 51 driver will beat a
avreage 38 driver.. But a good 38 driver will beat a good 51 driver. Also a great 51 driver will beat any aircraft and pilot he flys aganist.
Because he knows the sercets and weaknesses of his aircraft. And also the sercets and weaknesses of every other aircraft in the areana. and exploits the weaknesses and surpresses the strenths of the enemy aircraft he is fighting aganist. And win!
As I said earlier it is who is flying the 51 and who is flying the 38
CW
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True CW, very true.
The P-51 is an incredible plane, but it doesnt measure up to the 38 in anything except top speed and e-retention.
I'd venture to say its just a 38 with a jalapeņo up its bellybutton ;) :D
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tour 20
ammo has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times in the P-47D-11 against the P-38L
tour 21
ammo has 4 kills and has been killed 1 time in the P-47-D30 against the P-38L.
tour 22
ammo has 8 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-47-D25 against the P-38L
ammo has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-47-D30 against the P-38L
tour 23
ammo has 3 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-47-D30 against the P-38L.
tour 24
ammo has 4 kills and has been killed 3 times in the P-47-D30 against the P-38L
P38s make me hungry.
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Both the p-38 and the P-51 suck blue turds.
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Nice movie Midnight. That's from Tour 20 though, singlepingodeath stab and 1 ping death engines a 38 specialty :)
Lemme see juggies.. T24 - 12 kills of p47d30 , 0 deaths by p47d30 .. T23 .. 11 kills , 6 deaths... t22...6 kills 3 deaths.. t21...5 Kills 2 Dth ...t20..8 kills 7 deaths.
I knew it, they just bombs with a prop up in front ;) . Methinks the jalapeņo on this plane gives juggies a gag reflex *G* :D :D
*shakes fist*
and u just wait till we get them dive flaps installed!! *evil grin*
(HT's goon bringing in the dive flap conversions got shot down!) ;) :D :D
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Tour 24 Hangtime has 11 kills and has been killed 5 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 23 Hangtime has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 22 Hangtime has 14 kills and has been killed 4 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 21 Hangtime has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
Tour 20 Hangtime has 3 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the P-38L.
*yawn*
So what? All this proves is that I kill low ones, run from high ones screamin like a lil girl, and don't trip over my dress as often as I used to.
Since us allies have nothin better to do now that the LW has capitulated I suggest that the only TRUE test of these mighty dorks.. err... ahhh... swords would be to have a rumble.
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Put a newbee in a spit an let em kill everyone:)
Sax
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touche~
Tour 24
The P-47D-11 has 44 kills and has been killed 31 times against the P-38L
The P-47-D25 has 75 kills and has been killed 62 times against the P-38L.
The P-47-D30 has 248 kills and has been killed 224 times against the P-38L.
what does this prove? Absolutely nothin;)
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dunno if hang or sax take the trophy for the most disgusting picture placed on my mind when I read that.
Ugh :eek:
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What.. u gay 2 engine AMC PACER drivin dork wavin snack bar campers don't wanna rumble?
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Damn Hang you must hate the 38! What happen when you 1st started AH every 38 you kilt you with 5 sec. of merge :).. anyway
you hate the 38 the way I hate spits. :)
CW
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Its all about who's driving the plane. This sort of dick stroking is seen all the time and its always...pilot.
xBAT
P.S. Fun to watch..and I'm past my bed time. Nighty night.
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i failed to mention in my earlier post that this holds true to all aircraft.
Know the sercets and weaknesses of your aicraft. Know the sercets and weanesses of the aircraft your flying and aganist.
Exploit the weaknesses while surpressing the strengths. Do this and u will win every fight! Versus any plane and most pilots..
But this doesn't hold true to the MA as much to the CT.
The MA is like one big furball going on all at once. You can't really engage just one fighter. Thats probaly why I suck so bad. Cause in AW i never really was any good in a furball. I was good at 1v1 fights.. Now there's a sport.. A 1v1 fight in a 38 is the best thing a 38 driver can dream about. Because it just you and him.. and no one else... That is why I call it a sport..
oh and
P-38 RULES!!! As fester likes to put it :)
CW
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Damn I need to rea thru the thread before I post stuff :)..
HANG I WILL RUMBLE WITH U ANYDAY PAL!!!!
CW
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Hang's trying to hit on Midnight CW. Dont get in the way ;) *G*
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EEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKK! Midnight, that was from long time ago ;). My first tour to be exact. Maybe, that same senario will come about again, with different outcome ;). Tac will still die, but i will be rtb'in ;)
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what? hate the peeee38? me? Nah. the red peee38's are merely an annoyance. The green ones be can nice to have around... everybody jumps on em like crab legs at a chinese buffet. Nice to have the horde shoot at something besides my pony.
190's and 109's... THOSE I hate.
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51's v 38's....2k alt...guns cold on the merge....cannot get out of icon range of the herd....no runnin:)
Whatta ya think Hang?:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Oh, hell I'm so bored I'd even duel a freakin niki.
Whatever the gay 2 engine AMC PACER drivin dork wavin snack bar campers wanna put on their headstones is fine by me.
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Not that it really matters Midnight, but we climbed to engage you when I killed fulz, and yes I missed him on the first pass because I am not very good at this GAME.
(edit--to much wine mixing with testostrone----- my apology)
The funny thing was in the P38 I had the best K/D I have had (which isn't very good) I found that you had to think much more before engaging with the 38 because you cant run, you have to fight. TAC knows how to really kill in the 38, but he know that ACM stuff.
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Here's my k/d record against P-51D's from my first three tours (currently in middle of tour #3).
Tour 22: 6 Kills of P-51D and 6 Deaths by P-51D
Tour 23: 32 kills of P-51D and 24 Deaths by P-51D
Tour 24: 16 Kills of P-51D and 7 Deaths by P-51D
Hmm..always seem to shoot down them down more than they shoot me down.
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My experience has been that the P38 owns the P51D, ALL things being equal. 2 pilots, each comfortable in their plane, fighting it out ... co-alt, co-E ... I'd rather be the P38.
ALl of you people posting stats - they are absolutely irrelevant. I have killed 2 262's in a 202, and never been killed. So does that mean the 202 is better? Well hell no. So many variables enter into the equation here. Many P51 pilots that have posted on this board, and I said many because there are certainly exceptions, are strict BnZ E fighters that wont get down and mix it up with a P38. Mix it up with my 38 and I'll own ya :D
Nim
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Not that it really matters Midnight, but we climbed to engage you when I killed fulz, and yes I missed him on the first pass because I am not very good at this GAME.
Just to set records straight then...
It was Fatz, not FulzGold that you shot down.
Trust me when I say you guys dove in from our high six to attack us. There is no other way you would have been able to do it.
Fatz was AFK on full power auto-climb with 75% fuel load at takeoff. You guys jumped us at about 17K. If we were already over you, there is no way that your P-38s would be able to climb up to us to attack. If you were under us, I would have attacked you first and prevented you from climbing up to kill my AFK wingman.
And yes, I understand this is a game. But I play to win, just like any other game I play, on the computer or on the court, either way, I want to win.
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we like hot air nimitz.
It makes the FDB's touchy-feely ;)
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Sorry, Midnight, that simply isn't the way it happened.
You guys were above us to the South and coming North. We were lower headed East, flight of four, two elements. Sax and I were the lower Southern element I think and Rude and Milo were the Northern higher element.
Sax and I saw you first and advised the other element. Milo and Rude went level for speed and Milo simply did a slow climbing turn to the N onto the AFK -51's six. I remember watching him slowly climb and close to firing position.
That's the way it happened.
ALL of us were below you guys.
The only time we got higher than you was when you dove on me and followed me down as I drug you under my squaddies. You did ping the oil on the right engine and I landed at 4. You were too busy extending away from the other 38's to finish me.
BTW, I _think_ that was the FIRST night we flew -38's. We all had about 20 minutes of "stick time" in them. I believe we're all a little better in the -38 now. ;)
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Nope, sorry
The P-38L doesn't have enough climb advantage and not near enough speed to catch a P-51B (What Fatz was in) at full power above 15K. Just won't happen.
Therefore, the conclusion is that the P-38s had an altitude advantage on the P-51s at the start of the engagement. Yes, it did appear to be greater an advantage to me, because I was in a P-51D and Fatz was pulling away and was higher than me at the time.
If I had the advantage, there is no way I would have left Milo to hang off of Fatz's six and get a free kill as you are describing.
Anyway, that whole point is not why I responded to this thread in the first place. I said I could kill the P-38L in my P-51D.
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LOL.
Yeah, right.
Milo doesn't know what he did, the rest of us didn't watch him do it and see it happen just as he described it.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/p38lclimb.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/p51bclimb.gif)
Let's see now.. presumably heavy P-51B (since you guys probably always take enough fuel to get to the stratosphere) and a KNOWN light P-38 because we were heading to 4 to refuel.... P-51B climbing w/o WEPS since he was reportedly AFK and P-38 using a lead turn climb in WEP to close to guns.
...and you're going to say it's impossible? Good, keep thinking like that please. :D
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Cmon Midnight!
Quit tellin stories...you know we own you guys!
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Toad, did you look at that data or just post it?
I told you Fatz was 75% fuel load at takeoff. At 17K, that is at least 5 minutes into the flight (it was more, but it takes about 5 minutes to get to 17K from 0K) which means his AUX tank was empty and his wing tanks were about 87%.
At 17K, which we were, the P-38L holds about a 100'/min climb advantage (WEP On) on the P-51B (WEP Off). This is no where near the advantage needed to climb up to the six of a P-51B, if you were starting out lower, as you claim. Even if you guys had only 25% fuel left, your climb advantage would be maybe 500'/min.
And once again, you seem to neglect that I was right there. If I was above you, you would never have made it to Fatz in the first place. I would have used my E advantage to dive in on Milo's six as he
Originally posted by Toad
I remember watching him slowly climb and close to firing position.
That's the way it happened.
ALL of us were below you guys.
Sorry, but you don't slowly climb up to firing position on any of my wingman if I have an altitude advantage on you.
Own what, Rude? maybe some lead I threw your way from my 6 .50s. Other than that, you own nothing of the 412th's
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oh, fer crissakes, lets stop waving the rubber dorks around, chose up sides, and rumble.
;)
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Already working on it Hangtime.
Rude already agreed to it.
412th and 13th deathmatch 8 -vs- 8.
We just need to set the time, date and ROE.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Toad, did you look at that data or just post it?
Yeah, I read it. Did you?
What I'm seeing is a no-WEP -51B climbing at 2700-2800 fpm @ 17k and a -38 climbing at 3300-3400 fpm at the same altitude.
I also sorta doubt Milo's kill was that high. As I recall, it was maybe 15k which would give Milo another couple of hundred fpm advantage.
Also, there's that dang geometry thingie. Non-evasive target climbing steadily North, Eastbound interceptor well aware of his path before the dot is even in view turns NNE to intercept, climbing all the time. Intercept occurs at a point in space well ahead of N bound target when target is first sighted. Interceptor has much shorter distance to travel/climb.
Also, as I recall it, you were lagging the lead target quite a bit... and lower than him as well but still above us. Basically, there was NOTHING you could do to save him.
But surely, all four of us can't remember it correctly... even the guy that did the shooting.. but you have it exact to the foot. :D
Post the film of that, will ya? :D
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Originally posted by Toad
What I'm seeing is a no-WEP -51B climbing at 2700-2800 fpm @ 17k and a -38 climbing at 3300-3400 fpm at the same altitude.
Look again, Toad. P-51B at 17k no wep is at it's peak climb rate of about 3200 fpm. P-38L is dropping off to 3300-3400 as you say.
Originally posted by Toad
Also, as I recall it, you were lagging the lead target quite a bit... and lower than him as well but still above us. Basically, there was NOTHING you could do to save him.
:rolleyes: Ok, let me see. I was below and behind Fatz (about 3k or so less altitude and about 2.5k yards back. You guys were even further away, and claim to have been lower than me, (say 1000 feet for your benefit) meaning you were at least 4K below Fatz.
Climbing (giving you advantage again) 500 fpm more than Fatz, it would take two minutes to catch up to him at his current altitude. If we started as low as you say (15K) and Fatz was climbing at 2800 fpm, that would mean that in the two minutes Milo was "slowly climbing to firing position" Fatz would have climbed an additional 5000 feet (about), making his altitude 20K by the time Milo would be there to fire.
Now during this 2 minute period, if I was above you, what do you suggest I was doing if ALL of you were lower than me?
Now, if we use the numbers I come up with (which are the numbers on the chart) the P-51B would have been climbing closer to 3200 fpm giving Milo only 200 fpm better climb than Fatz, meaning his time to match is closer to 5 minutes, meaning he wouldn't have been in firing position until they were closer to 24K, which we all know, they never got that high.
Originally posted by Toad
Also, there's that dang geometry thingie. Non-evasive target climbing steadily North, Eastbound interceptor well aware of his path before the dot is even in view turns NNE to intercept, climbing all the time. Intercept occurs at a point in space well ahead of N bound target when target is first sighted. Interceptor has much shorter distance to travel/climb.
Oh yeah, geometry. If Milo had to turn NNE to make the interception, that means he had to travel the longer distance, not shorter to close the gap (that's the way a right triangle works)
Your explaination of the events do not work mathmatically Toad. Therefore, it is not possible to have happened the way you describe.
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Well I had better solve this discussion.
I take back my kill,,,
The Fatz is still climbing out AFK, I am no longer climbing to kill him waiting for his wingman to come kill me because he has seen me and broken down and to the right and it is taking forever to get in guns range at this slow rate of closure. The other Pony will have to get in position before I can get a shot off.
Problem solved.
Moving on-----
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Well you guys all seem to know youir stuff so maybe one of ya all could explain to me which nikie was called "the twin engined devil" ? None of my books show it.
lazs
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even though i havn't been in th MA for a while Personally i think the p51 will totally destroy a p38 in 1 v 1 engagement below 25k
reasons are simple, energy retention and high speed climb ability.
High speen climb
275 ias or more at 2k/min mustang... (my 4 mg model is even better)
250 ias or more at 2k/min p38
note these are approx figures but fairly close .....
this advantage is huge..
Luftwaffle pilots use the g-10's power in a similiar manner but the mustang is not far off in the high speed climb department.
g-10 used to do 300mph or more at 3k / min for 10 mins wep which is silly.
Using energy tactics you can bleed the p38 (be patient its not like your going to run out of fuel)
you will finally get the head to head attack or headon and my personal favorite was the double immelamn either hard or soft**
**(hard if the enemy goes soft and vice versa; if im speaking in tougues do some more air to air reading.)
note good p38's pilots wont bite at first but just keep the pressure on stay fast and try to gain any angles you can to get a gun solution. They will crack or run out of fuel or get low. Either of those and the 38 is toast.
beware the 38's low speed stall if you decide to rope and play the air violin.
Visibility is superior in the p51 for the intangables
add ++ for fuel...
If you have flown the mustang in this manner youll see how effective it really is, near untouchable in a 1 vs 1...
Im shure hangtime will vouge for this hes a long time p51 vet...
by no means is this a 38 bash but IMO the p51 just gives you more options in a duel. (g10 even more tricks up its sleeve but thats another story.
IMO the 38 is a killing machine but with equal pilots the p51 is superior energy fighter. And im biased to good energy fighting.
my 2 cents
DoctorYo
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in a co-e p51 vrs p38 encounter, i'll go with the p47.. ;)
Rude's sucha HO dweeb.. who cares what hes flying :rolleyes:
**cough**
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Know thine enemy lazs. Dont tell me you're whining because one of the strat-minded pilots you cry so much about suddenly takes a furballing plane and has some fun with it. Did he shoot you down? You get a booboo from him? Awwww.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p
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Heyas Doc...long time:)
It's the pilot in my opinion. What Doc states is fact....now whether most can accomplish what the 51 is capable of, well , that's a different story.
Some folks think stats are worthless...well, they do give an indication over multiple tours of whether someone can consistently handle themselves against specific foes.
The Mustang is one of the finest aircraft ever built and flown correctly can kill anything. Now, thats my little o' pinion, but hey, would I lead ya astray?:)
When ya comin back Doc?
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Originally posted by Midnight
Look again, Toad. P-51B at 17k no wep is at it's peak climb rate of about 3200 fpm. P-38L is dropping off to 3300-3400 as you say.
No matter how long I look, it looks like you're still wrong. :D
Looks to me this way: (and I add the 15 and 20k references because they are CLEARLY marked on the chart.
P-51B No WEP:
20k ~ 2750 FPM
17k ~ 2850 - and that's a bit generous
15k ~ 3200
P-38 WEP
20k ~ 2950 FPM
17k ~ 3250
15k ~ 3350
Like Bill O'Reilly... let's let the readers decide. ;)
Originally posted by Midnight
Oh yeah, geometry. If Milo had to turn NNE to make the interception, that means he had to travel the longer distance, not shorter to close the gap (that's the way a right triangle works)
Your explaination of the events do not work mathmatically Toad. Therefore, it is not possible to have happened the way you describe.
Waal, I ain't one o' them thar Math-eee-matrickal geeneeuses...
but wouldn't that ONLY be true if Milo and the target started on the same E-W line.. call it the "base" of the right triangle or sumptin', raht?
Now, iffin MILO were WELL North of the targets original position when he was advised of the target by RW.. and iffin MILO were purty dang close to the target's undeviating, straight-line path to th' North... an iffin MILO started to climb and turn THEN....
waal.. that wouldn't be one o' them thar right triangaleees laak yur talkin' 'bout now wood it?
Post that film, Mid. We all want to watch!
Or... you tell this story any ole way that let's you sleep at night. :D
'cuz those of us TAS that were there KNOW how it went down.
See ya at the rumble if I'm not at work.
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Hmm, long time since I posted here-
But all things being equal, if you were in a Mustang co-e with Citabria in a P-38 who would win? be honest now....
:)
I am sure someone can dredge up his scores from back when the thing was nuetered to prove my point :)
P-38 rocks, and my point is simply that all you need is to know the sercret knack to make it work .
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Originally posted by Toad
Sax and I saw you first and advised the other element. Milo and Rude went level for speed and Milo simply did a slow climbing turn to the N onto the AFK -51's six. I remember watching him slowly climb and close to firing position.
That's the way it happened.
ALL of us were below you guys.
So which was it, Toad? Milo either went level for speed or used his incredible climbing advantage to get up onto Fatz's six.
Couldn't have done both.
And once again, you neglect to put any stock into where I was this whole time. If I had this theorectical altitude advantage, then where was I? Why would I not have gone nose low to increase my speed and intercept Milo?
Why? Because I had no altitude advantage to use. No way I could go nose low to catch up and dive onto Milo's six.
The simple fact is, Milo, at the very least had an altitude advantage that he used to close the gap on Fatz.
And you are obviously having a hard time reading chart data, so here are the P-51B and P-38L charts overlayed.
(http://www.brauncomustangs.org/JPEGs/P51vsP38chart.jpg)
This chart does not show WEP, but looking at your chart, the WEP advantage for the P38 is about 300 fpm.
I think you also said that the engagement was not quite at 15K either, right? Hmm, the P-38 has less climb rate than the B under that alt until below 9K. I think we can all agree that we were not below 9K, as we were about 20 miles north of our takeoff field. (P-51B at max power gets to about 16K in 20 miles)
The math just don't work for you Toad.
And why do you keep telling me to post a film? I don't have one for this encounter. I already posted my film for the engagement with Tac.
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Charts? They're right here in the thread for anyone that cares to examine them.
Geometry? Try this. Draw a N/S line say 15 miles long. Put the target at the very S end. Put a dot 11 miles N and 2 E of the target dot.. that would be Milo, the attacker.
Assume the higher AFK target climbs N along the line at climb speed ~ 180 kts.
Know that the attacker has been radioed course and altitude on the target. Can he close the N/S line and climb up a few thousand feet to the target?
I think the math works. BTW, this is just a "math example" I don't have the EXACT locations. So relax and unclench your nose hair. ;)
Which was it?
Both. :D
Sax and I were South, Milo and Rude almost or maybe even out of icon range to N.
Told them about the hi 51; told them there was no way Sax and I could get up that high. They leveled, got some speed, Milo did a climbing, turning intercept.
Hard to understand?
It wasn't a quick engagement.
IIRC, I looked up and saw the lead target LONG before I saw you trailing and had the target in ICON range long before I saw your icon.
I think you were just WAY out of position, too far in trail to do anything at all but dive on us once you got there.
...but like I said, remember it any way you like as it obviously upsets you to read it the way the four guys on the other side remember it. :p
Sleep well tonite!
:D
I'm /\/\/\/\/\/\-hopping-/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/---------> outta here!
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz.....
bowser
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Originally posted by aknimitz
I have killed 2 262's in a 202, and never been killed.
Nim, you are an utter badass. You know that? Could you show me how to kill a 262 in a 202?
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fly in front of it and get sucked into the intakes?
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RAMMING SPEED!
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Man i expected a nice smart assed remark about my HO dweeb comment.. your slipping rude! :)