Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saintaw on January 22, 2002, 03:25:14 AM
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What do you think the US govt will do?
With the non-conventional fighters/terrorist being held in cages(well, so they say on the News...). We're hearing a lot about this on the News, and also Europe's big dissagrement on the matter. (They want them to be under the "prisoner of war" conditions).
Don't get me wrong, I'd personaly have em chained by the balls, but..ahem, back on subject :)
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thats main diffrent betweeb Euro and US goverments...
"few" euro people are scared about possibility failure of rational way of thinking in US gov.
US polits seems to be able do whatever to be "obey boy"
if you will break basic axiom`s of culture, many people will be disappointed
axiom`s of culture ? ... dont be same as something what we call foolishness
but this coming from history ... but who cares about it when somebody kick our arse
fool with the tool is still fool
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I think Dubya will treat them as badly as domestic public opinion will allow. I don't think this will be a whole lot worse than POW treatment, except that they will all be going to trial and facing execution.
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Well... If those liberal dolps would only bother to find out what is a POW and who Geneva convention applies to... But hey - they throw themselves under lorries transporting animals. Now they have humanoids to "protect". And it's vaguely anti-American which is good, right? Or is it left? ;)
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Isnt it wondeful to be Europe these days, when you have absolutely no real burden of responsibilty and you know the big old USA will come save your sorry soft socialist leasure class bellybutton should anything "really" bad happend.
Its then oh so very easy to criticize the USA who feed its Al Qeadea guests culturally approprite meals, provide religious services, and shock of all otherworldly horrors actually handcuff the poor little innocents.............
diddly off Europe, we got this!
And Im originally from Europe too so can it.
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Keep them in the cages, its ok for me. They dont deserve anything, they are not soldiers, they are bloody terrorists and butchers.
However, dont give any chance to Red Cross, Amnesty International, Human Rights or other international organization to say that USA is behaving to them badly (against international treaties I mean) . European newspapers are full of nasty comments about the different/better way USA are treating their american-taliban.
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Al-Qaeda members are not POW's, however according to the international red cross, members of the Taliban taken under arms are.
The concern is that members of the Taliban are being held unlawfully.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Isnt it wondeful to be Europe these days, when you have absolutely no real burden of responsibilty and you know the big old USA will come save your sorry soft socialist leasure class bellybutton should anything "really" bad happend.
Yeah that has to be the best argument I ever heard for ingoring human rights. Well America may not be ignoring the human rights of these people, but what they are doing aint right either.
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After reading this....
Im glad I living in Europe
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Yes - held them in the cages or cut their hands off or burn them or just stone them to death.
Then you also are a perfect barbarian like they seem to be.
The question is not if these prisoners are monsters - the question is if a civilized nation which also claims to fight for human rights and democracy has the right to treat them in this way.
Another question is, how this pictures could be taken to public so easily - considering that they were taken in an isolated military base on communistic Cuba.
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Originally posted by gatt
they are not soldiers
so how did they declare war to them when they arent soldiers ?
war can be declared on country, not person
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however according to the international red cross, members of the Taliban taken under arms are.
How can they be POWs? During the WW2 only memebers of the armed forced wearing uniform etc were treated as such. Anyone else caught with arms could have been simply shot on sight with no rights as a spy? Geez - the liberalism gone isane will be the end of us:(.
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You Euros are a pretty pathetic spineless lot these days, if it wasnt for America guarding us in second half of the century wed all be speaking russian eating borsch praising Marx and Stalin and loving it. Any you know it.
What human rights are violated here? What could it possibly be? Is it the chains and handcuffs? Or the decent food? Or the ear muffs given to them while in the planes to protect them from the noise? Or the masks for TB?
The fact is you Euros are gutless lot nowadays, Churchill is spinning over in his grave. God rest his and Europe's soul.
Its shameful!
What happend to the strong proud Europe of the past? You are so afraid of past that you just castrate youselves. Europe needs to get tough again and fast or youll just end up as one useless identiy less mass consumersist leisure class socialst sissies. Youll be the laughing stock of the world.
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Keez since yousr astute on this enlighten us all as to how we should treat these wondeful people so nobody in nevernever euroland will get upset?
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Originally posted by Eaglecz
so how did they declare war to them when they arent soldiers ? war can be declared on country, not person
First, this is not a war between Afghanistan and the USA. This is a war between the USA (togheter with other nations) against the butchers who owned Afghanistan and used it like a terrorist training camp.
Then look, I'm european but I do believe that you cannot consider and treat them like normal prisoners in a normal jail. Do you want them to receive parents or write home or do jogging or work like normal prisoners? They can kill, they dont give a damn about their lives, they are kamikaze. Its easy to speak when you are not there and looking at all this mess from your armchair.
Ypu should read Machiavelli.
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bring ALL of the scum to Cuba, then have a prison "riot" which, very sorry to report, kills ALL of them. End of story and my tax dollars supporting their worthless murdering asses.
heard if/when they go to trial a US Army doc produced in 98 (hmm - during Willies adim) will be used against US gov as it states one person's terrorist is another person's "freedom fighter".
Kill them all b4 we overload COurt TV with this toejame.
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Originally posted by -lynx-
How can they be POWs? During the WW2 only memebers of the armed forced wearing uniform etc were treated as such. Anyone else caught with arms could have been simply shot on sight with no rights as a spy? Geez - the liberalism gone isane will be the end of us:(.
WTF are you talking about? Uniform makes one a member of armed forces. Some of the finnish soldiers in Winter war didn't have uniforms... you know why? Because there weren't enough uniforms for all and not enough money to buy them. Yet they were very much members of armed forces -- though if you'd been commanding the Red Army you'd apparently had all of the finnish POWs who didn't have an uniform shot and left to rot.
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Any of you guys ever been to that part of the Carribean?
The "outdoor" confinement they have is probably much more comfortable than an "indoor" cinder block cell of the same dimensions. At least this way they get whatever breeze there is available.
They're getting AT LEAST the comforts they had when they were fighting. I suspect they are actually MORE comfortable than they were in the caves.
They aren't being mistreated. They're confined outdoors in a climate where that is probably a better deal than they had in Afgahnistan.
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Hmmmm We saw how the Somali's treated our POW on TV. Sadam beat the POW's he had on a daily basis. Hanoi, how many hostages over the years? How many dead hostages have we had over the past 30 years? What kind of quarter do you think these guys would have shown any of us? Have we already forgoten Masar-I-Sharif? These are some of the same people who were at that place, some of whom have reportedly said that they will kill an American before they leave Cuba. They should thank God almighty that they are prisoners of the USA. The picture shown in Europe, from what I've seen, is a picture that was taken when they first got to Camp X-ray and were being proccessed into their cells. :mad: :mad: Freaking press is trying to make something out of nothing trying to start toejame.
Bill O'Riley had an A-10 pilot verteran of the Gulf War on his show last night. He got shot down towards the end of the war and spent about 3 weeks as a POW. According to him and the they beat him and the other POW's on a daily basis. Where they hell were all these human rights people then? Ruwanda? How many Iraqi civilians are dead because of Sadam? oh wait I forgot that's the USA"s fault too, silly sanctions. Anybody else smell the hipocracy here? On the History Channel they had the Blackhawk Down story on. They showed the images of the dead and dismembered UN soldiers as well as the American soldier being dragged through the streets. The Pakastani soliers got the worst end of that, you couldn't tell that what was being dragged used to be human.
The fact is that these rechid creatures are lucky to even still be alive at this point. They are lucky that they were not thrown into a 40 ft deep pit to live. They get medical treatment and all that good stuff even though they don't rate high enough for oxygen intake. LOL to be honest I can't believe these people. Who the diddly do they think the USA is? Hitler? Stalin? Who the hell just spent the better part of the last century sending our soldiers and cash to try and help make the world a better place? Who they hell do they think protected them agains the USSR? Frances modern military? How many missionaries have we lost over the past 20 yrs in 3rd world nations? These people better pray that the USA never turns into the evil monster that 1/2 the world would like the other 1/2 to think we are because there would probobly be no other half.
I hate to sound selfish or arrogant, but Europe should just stay the hell out of this. Maybe when you've had your largest city attacked by savage animals you'll understand. Understand this, Americans understand this war. We know what's at risk here, our very way of life. These prisoners are lucky to be where they are, for the time being anyway. I can only imagine the uproar when we start the executions. Maybe we should give the Briton prisoners back to England, that much I could consede, but if there's a way for any of them to find their way back to the streets I say don't give them back. Hopefuly they will all be in shallow unmarked graves in Cuba before the year is over. I think 9-11-02 would be a great day for mass executions, wow and I'm anti-death penalty too.
This whole "issue" is unbelievable to me. I understand the word incredulous now, even if I can't spell it.
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S!
First of all, those prisoners should be treaten as terrorist and hang, period. I can't understand the statements some european countries has given (including finland). This is so typical how "highly civilized states" nurses criminals and kicks victims. This makes me sig.
And talking about making me sig, there's this case called GRUNHERZ. Well atleast it made me sig until he wrote this: "And Im originally from Europe". That switched my feelings from anger to kind of sympathy. GRUNHERZ has some serious identity issues as he so much wants to be original american, but he ended up as a desperate american wannabe. I feel sorry for you because you have to live with yourself.
Generalizing any subject is dangerous and stupid. You said europeans don't have gut because someone here thinks prisoners rights are violated? Ok, according to all those rapes and murders that happens in USA every day, I could generalize that all american's are rapists and murderers? With your formula, I'm right by saying that. But do I think so? Hell no! I have absolutely nothing against americans, they are just as good as anyone else here in europe, not better, but not worse. However people like you can change many peoples opinion about america and americans, but as we now know, you're just american wannabe...
I don't know the reasons for you to drag communism and socialism in every reply you make but I'd bet it was something dramatic as it left such a huge marks on you.
It's kind of weird that in other forums your posts are ok, but here in O'Club you think you have "permission" to abuse europe and european people (others than americans that is)?
You really should change your psychiarist before it's too late.
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Yea yea whater vector save me your sympathy. Im quite comforable with my identity as an American and as a European. I just dont care for this wishy washy stance by Euro ploticians who now come in at the end of the war and start telling the USA what to do, why didnt they help more during the fighting? Only the USA and a few brave British soldiers fought in the war.
And now the euros are all over this country, lemme take a headcount of all the european guards at the prison camp. Uhmmm it ends at 0, as in none! They just sit in their warm comfy offices and just complain. The prsoners get acces to fucjking showers and hot meals three times a day. The Marines at Kandahar Airport and Rhino have not had a bath in oover 6 weeks, where is diddlying human rights USA hating watch there?
Im sick of all this complaing. If euro poloticans want to influence the prison they should volunteer to guard all of them- I bet they would shut up real quick when little Francois or Goeffrey were tasked with gurding these suiciadal murdering fanatics!
I say, put up or shut up.
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Originally posted by Eaglecz
so how did they declare war to them when they arent soldiers ?
war can be declared on country, not person
war hasn't been declared....
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Grunherz, I totally agree with you, everything you said!
All those european politicians nursing terrorists are so hypocritical. But not all citizens of european countries think same. After all there are reasonable people in europe too.
I just wish you could put it in that way in the first place instead of all that anti-europe thing.
I had no rights to start insult you, I just got little upset there and I apologize that.
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Have any European leaders actually said anything about the prisoners? Or are we up in arms here about the press in EU? Try to keep your heads about this because the propaganda you hear may actually not be the collective opinion of the area.
The press in Europe, especially in England is notoriously more sensationalist than the mainstream press in America.
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Just found this on drudgereport.com take a look at the pictures at the bottom of the article to remember how the taliban treated their women prisoners. Hell we even gave them a sign pointing the direction to meca so they could pray properly.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002031100,00.html
I do think there are some major anti-american forces behind this "human rights row". Hopefuly Europe can see through it.
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Being a good Euroland citizen I choose the Euro Way :
I'm starting a subscription for those poor Taliban's prisonner of those nasty fat hambuger eater ...
Leason learned : stop thinking with "cliché".
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Actually european press is reporting Amnesty International, Red Cross and UK government's concerns.
Again, some press in europe is wondering why the american taliban is not at X-ray camp. There is some irony about it.
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Ain't he still the citizen of USA? By that he prolly has different trial than others.
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Thats the problem Vector. Since he shot against US Army, helped the terrorists ... actually he is a terrorist ... and so on, he should be treated like other X-ray prisoners. If you dont do it, the UK government will claim his citizens back ASAP and the press will say the USA are using double standards.
damned signature ;)
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I say, put up or shut up.
Please do Grun - you're talking out of your arse. Little "Goeffreys" (of Parachute Regiment in this case) are in Afganistan, have been for awhile and will stay for another while too.
though if you'd been commanding the Red Army you'd apparently had all of the finnish POWs who didn't have an uniform shot and left to rot.
Sage - just crawl back under your rock and stay there. K? I don't recall Finns being particularly warmhearted to the Russian POWs but those things obviously didn't feature in your history lessons. They told you you'd almost won the Winter War too, did they not?:rolleyes:
As for who the POW actually is (according to Geneva Convention that is) - my bad on the uniforms, however here's the definition itself:
Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
As far as I can see those from the X-ray camp fall under neither category...
As for British/American muslims caught in Afganistan - I really don't see how a citizen of a country caught fighting against his own country's Armed Forces can be treated as a POW - he/she is a traitor and treason is a capital offence anyway you look at it.
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Hi Grunherz,
i wonder where you are from, i mean your past in europe?!
The more often i read that stuff you publish here, the more i think you don`t know what you are talkin about.
I don`t know any photos or videos from POW camps, but i know that we for sure are not sitting in our offices, spineless as we are, and wait for the Americans to do the job!!
There were several offers by europe politicians to bring european forces in for support, but the US government decided they didn`t need them. That`s ok, but not our fault. So don`t tell us that we are spineless or whatever.
According to the Geneve Conventions one is a soldier the moment he wears a uniform, is enlisted and bears some kind of badge to identify his loyalty. As we all know, the Taliban have nothing like that, so they are no soldiers. That far its simple.
On the other hand there still are some rights u never can take from a human beeing.
Don`t get me wrong here, i do not support some liberal guy who talks about treating them as abgels or whatever, but anyone has to respect the rights they got according to several constitutions of democratic states. At least the governments of these states.
I´m no friend of treating criminals the soft way, I`m no friend of looking to ones past and saying: ok, he had had a bad childhood, that`s why he raped that girl...aso, but whatever one did, he has his human rights nobody can take from him.
Put them into chains, bring them to court and give them their punishment,(if you ask me a hard one please) that`s ok. But as long as that has not be done, respect their rights.
So please stop talking about Europeans as being soft, spineless or things, there might be some that take it personal and don`t deserve it.
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Originally posted by gatt
Thats the problem Vector. Since he shot against US Army, helped the terrorists ... actually he is a terrorist ... and so on, he should be treated like other X-ray prisoners. If you dont do it, the UK government will claim his citizens back ASAP and the press will say the USA are using double standards.
That's true, but if he's citizen of USA, then he could be prosecuted for traitorness (sp?) otherwise than others. Being a traitor in USA may lead to death penalty. IMO keeping him apart from others US signals to allies that this is handled as a internal case.
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Btw, watched just news where new Ambassador of USA in Finland disagrees with finnish Foreign Minister Tuomioja's statements of violating "prisoners" rights, woohoo, wtg!
Tuomioja is full of toejam and known his anti-usa and anti-israel statements. He was the one that compared israeli actions against palestinians to those of nazi's did to jewish :eek:
What a jerk...
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Originally posted by Vector
That's true, but if he's citizen of USA, then he could be prosecuted for traitorness (sp?) otherwise than others. Being a traitor in USA may lead to death penalty. IMO keeping him apart from others US signals to allies that this is handled as a internal case.
They've already said he will face trial here in the states as a citizen. Our constitution set in stone the requirements for a conviction on treason, it's a tough conviction. It requires 2 witnesses to each act or a confession in open court. If the Brits want their citizens back personaly I think we should give them back. They've stood by us in this war and have been like our right hand. Johny walker lind is a lucky son of a squeak, he'll probobly get off with 10-15 yrs in a federal prison, which I guess could be the same thing as a death sentence. Just imagine when the Aryan Nation find him alone in the showers or something. I wonder if he's realised his mistake yet?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You Euros are a pretty pathetic spineless lot these days, if it wasnt for America guarding us in second half of the century wed all be speaking russian eating borsch praising Marx and Stalin and loving it. Any you know it.
Could be better to live under civilized Germans and their servants? Understand who I mean?
GH, your hatred to Russians and other Orthodox nations is patologic.
Now go tell me how you Americans saved USSR in WWII.
Russia "discovered" moslim terrorism 10 years ago. And while we fight, some dumb bellybutton from DC dares to say about "human rights" for terrorists who are caught with weapons in hands, at the same time keeping prisoners (BTW - foreign citizens who obviously didn't commit any crimes against USA) in animal conditions without any chance for justice.
Remember: borsch is a Ukrainian soup. And it is much better then you favourite sandviches with artificial meat. At least you eat it with a spoon, not with your hands, like an animal.
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Man, I'd love a couple weeks open air tropical vacation in cuba, room and board included. Anyone know how to get there without having to kill anyone?
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Originally posted by Fatty
Man, I'd love a couple weeks open air tropical vacation in cuba, room and board included. Anyone know how to get there without having to kill anyone?
For 90 bucks you can take a boat from Montigo Bay Jamaca. My roommate and I almost did it 8 yrs ago, but that whole going to jail if you go to Cuba thing got in our way, that and that sticky ganja that Dr. Feelgood gave us when we bought the pipe :)
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Well the USA did not save the Russians in WW2, thats true. Churchill and the british did. The Russians would have lost if Britain was out of the war by 1940-1941. The British took up so many German resources all over Europe, North africa, and the Mediterranbian circa 1941- not to meantion the direct delays of several to Barbarossa caused by British intervention and support in Greece. Dont belive me Boroda? Did you know the LW had nearly twice used almost twice as many Bf109s in the attack on france as they used in Barbarossa. Whole Panzer Armies were engaded in North africa and the Balkans. Your beloved orthodox well actually godless communist peasants would have lost, it was a damn tight run thing anyway. And Imagine what if there was no US and british bombing of german industry.
Go ahead boroda belive that you all saved the world, they sure did in the 50s 60s and seventies- yep you communist scum thought you were entiled to the place regardless of what the people thought.
Go away drown your pathetic misery in some alcohol and find some some filthy Moscow potato to defile- just get away from here you dirty drunken bum.
I hope ypu like reading this post half as much as I like writing it!
A big to you boroda!
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GH, yep, you "saved" Vietnamese people by bombing them to stone age... You saved Afghani people by setting up a fundamentalist moslim regime there after Soviet forces left. You saved entire population of Dresden from Soviet "occupation". Your "saviour" nation adopted the complete set of nazi propaganda (absolutely, no kidding!) to justify mass murders by "fighting evil commies", who wanted only one thing: a few decades of peace.
I will be sober tomorrow, but you will remain an arrogant nazi.
Your knowledge of history shows that you spent too much time sniffing glue instead of going to school.
Go have a hamburger with a dissolved shoe polish you call "soda" to calm down. Feel free to insert a scanned picture of your american passport instead of a "nice 109 picture". Everybody here understands that you are so 200% American that you even watch baseball on TV.
BTW, I am absolutely sober now, drinking mineral water.
Keep following the Party line, my young friend. People and Party are united! Plans of the Party are the plans of the People!
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Yeah, actually I've been tempted to go a few times on my british passport from a second country. They're actually quite happy to take US dollars and isn't that much of a problem as long as you're not going direct from US.
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Originally posted by Boroda
GH, yep, you "saved" Vietnamese people by bombing them to stone age... You saved Afghani people by setting up a fundamentalist moslim regime there after Soviet forces left. You saved entire population of Dresden from Soviet "occupation". Your "saviour" nation adopted the complete set of nazi propaganda (absolutely, no kidding!) to justify mass murders by "fighting evil commies", who wanted only one thing: a few decades of peace.
I will be sober tomorrow, but you will remain an arrogant nazi.
Your knowledge of history shows that you spent too much time sniffing glue instead of going to school.
Go have a hamburger with a dissolved shoe polish you call "soda" to calm down. Feel free to insert a scanned picture of your american passport instead of a "nice 109 picture". Everybody here understands that you are so 200% American that you even watch baseball on TV.
BTW, I am absolutely sober now, drinking mineral water.
Keep following the Party line, my young friend. People and Party are united! Plans of the Party are the plans of the People!
Oh man LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Boroda,
hehe I'm laughing too hard. S! Comrad. LOL LOL LOL I'm thinking of a Russian propoganda film I saw from durring the Afgan war 20 yrs ago. In the video it showed the Russian troops "building houses and schools for our Afgan friends" I think it's just about the funniest thing ever to hear you talk about propaganda. PRAVDA LOL!!!
BTW, on a serious note, I'm very sorry to hear that the government has shut down most or all the privately owned media outlets. That worries me, we can already see what the USSR's propaganda has done to you and it's been 10 years since then. I never really thought people actually bought into the crap, but you've made me realize how powerful it really is. I worry for your country dude.
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Before people get too self-righteous (and start actually quoting from 'Blackhawk Down'...sheesh), British government inspectors have reported the conditions as being perfectly humane.
In fact, is was a right-wing conservative newspaper, 'The Daily Mail', which got all weepy about those orange-suited guy's plight. But then it's usually full of self-righteous toejame anyway, so nothing really changes.
Frankly, I agree with the RAF Tornado navigator shot down in Iraq and tortured; he reckons we should be whiter than white in these things - we should cling to the moral high ground with all our might. Treat them humanely and be fair-handed.
Besides, are these prisoners Al-Quaida or Taliban? The latter are no more than illiterate peasants.
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Udie, the first paragraph you quoted isn't Soviet propaganda. It's sad truth. BTW, Soviet media never talked about Dresden. I heard about it from my Granny's friend who worked there as ostarbeiter.
Sorry for being so pathetic, but you know, I love Grunherz, he reminds me of my young days. He's absolutely like a young righteous Comsomol activist. Brain-dead.
People really didn't "buy into that crap". The video you saw wasn't believed at all. Everyone saw wounded boys coming back from "behind the river"... I bet I saw much more such film then you did, and I already told you that what we see in the media now is very much like what we saw in 1980-87.
About nazi propaganda adopted by Western world: Udie, it stunned me, but recently I read some books (Western translated books) about nazi regime - and I recognized almost every stereotype that people here use about Russia, as a nazi slogan from 40-s. I have to admit that they were very effective.
You will probably never understand us. Never, if you will try to make conclusions sitting at your sofa watching CNN and reading local newspapers or "popular history"... I had to rethink many things in past 10-12 years. Funny, but 12 years ago I really believed that your way is the best. Hehe, and when I was 10 - I believed in Soviet Socialism ;) Now I am maybe too pessimistic, but I see that both systems have their disadvantages, and are based on heavy brainwashing :( Sorry, three systems: what we have here in Russia now is so weird and complicated even for me to understand. That hype about "free press" is a part of this bedlam: people use your slogans to protect Soviet type of relations. IMNSHO - it's just Putin and his team washing away the remnants of Yeltsin's heritage. Journalists who are called "free" and "democratic" are in fact completely bought by financial groups and olygarchs... I see propaganda cheap tricks both on "free" TV6 channel and "state" TV, and I hate them all. F@#k off from me. Leave me alone. Let me work and don't toejam into my brain.
Back to the topic: I undertand how you feel about that poor moslims, but I find a certain grade of hypocricy when US still has sanctions against Russia for not letting the Jews emigrate (it's called a "human rights violation"), kicks Russia for anti-terrorist operation in Chechnya, and keeps people in dog's cages as if they are animals. Sorry, maybe it's a deep cultural difference, but I find it horrible that some people are kept in dog's cages. It's no glory. No honor to do so. This idea is maybe as alien for me as drinking vodka straight, with raw onions, salo (salted pork fat) and black bread is alien for you.
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Boroda,
The USA is not perfect, and I am more than certain that some of our leadership would have jumped at the chance to pull the wool over our eyes to the extent that the Soviet Union lied to you and your countrymen and women. but-----
There is one glaring difference between our 2 societies. Freedom of the press. They (Our Liars) could never get away with it for long. Nothing you write in your diatribes against us is new to anyone here who cares to read. On the other hand, many Russian citizens had no idea the extent of the propaganda machine used against them over the past 70 years.
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Sorry, I can look cynic, but there is no such thing as a completely free press.
Any journalist and periodical press or media serves certain political and/or financial groups. If someone doesn't - they are useless and usually completely nuts or constantly fighting some imaginary windmills.
Anyway, calling Boris Berezovskiy's "pocket" TV channel "free media" is a silly joke.
To understand how "Russian citizens had no idea the extent of the propaganda machine used against them" - you simply have to live here. Everyone understood it, but it was the rule of the game, of social survival to follow it. It's all too complicated... "And when we'll reach Communism everything be f@#king fine, it will come soon, you only have to wait, everything will be for free, everything will be so nice, probably noone will ever have to die at all!!!" - to quote Yegor Letov's "According to the Plan".... Funny, this song is still actual... "The key to the border is broken in two, and our Grandfather Lenin completely dried out, he decayed into mould and honey, and perestroyka still goes and goes on, and everything goes according to the plan"....
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Originally posted by Boroda
Udie, the first paragraph you quoted isn't Soviet propaganda. It's sad truth. BTW, Soviet media never talked about Dresden. I heard about it from my Granny's friend who worked there as ostarbeiter.
Sorry for being so pathetic, but you know, I love Grunherz, he reminds me of my young days. He's absolutely like a young righteous Comsomol activist. Brain-dead.
People really didn't "buy into that crap". The video you saw wasn't believed at all. Everyone saw wounded boys coming back from "behind the river"... I bet I saw much more such film then you did, and I already told you that what we see in the media now is very much like what we saw in 1980-87.
I'm sure you saw way much more than me, that video was just about the only propaganda I've seen (from USSR) I'm glad to know that you could see through it. It seemed very unbelievable to me, but then I saw the news reports from over here at that time.
About nazi propaganda adopted by Western world: Udie, it stunned me, but recently I read some books (Western translated books) about nazi regime - and I recognized almost every stereotype that people here use about Russia, as a nazi slogan from 40-s. I have to admit that they were very effective.
I think I missed the point of this paragraph.
You will probably never understand us. Never, if you will try to make conclusions sitting at your sofa watching CNN and reading local newspapers or "popular history"... I had to rethink many things in past 10-12 years. Funny, but 12 years ago I really believed that your way is the best. Hehe, and when I was 10 - I believed in Soviet Socialism ;) Now I am maybe too pessimistic, but I see that both systems have their disadvantages, and are based on heavy brainwashing :( Sorry, three systems: what we have here in Russia now is so weird and complicated even for me to understand. That hype about "free press" is a part of this bedlam: people use your slogans to protect Soviet type of relations. IMNSHO - it's just Putin and his team washing away the remnants of Yeltsin's heritage. Journalists who are called "free" and "democratic" are in fact completely bought by financial groups and olygarchs... I see propaganda cheap tricks both on "free" TV6 channel and "state" TV, and I hate them all. F@#k off from me. Leave me alone. Let me work and don't toejam into my brain.
I have to say that this is the most encouraging paragraph I've ever read from you.
Back to the topic: I undertand how you feel about that poor moslims, but I find a certain grade of hypocricy when US still has sanctions against Russia for not letting the Jews emigrate (it's called a "human rights violation"), kicks Russia for anti-terrorist operation in Chechnya, and keeps people in dog's cages as if they are animals. Sorry, maybe it's a deep cultural difference, but I find it horrible that some people are kept in dog's cages. It's no glory. No honor to do so. This idea is maybe as alien for me as drinking vodka straight, with raw onions, salo (salted pork fat) and black bread is alien for you.
Well, the sanctions can be revisited and most Americans haven't got a choice on anything that has to do with foriegn policy. On Chechnya, all we saw on our propaganda er... news was Russian troops shelling neighborhoods and population centers, kind of looked like the same ole USSR to us over here, at least to me. Now after 9-11 I at least am more open to listening to you're views about the Chenyan "terrorist", but you've got to understand that over here for 10 years they've been billed as freedom fighters. And about the POW's in Cuba, they are not in dog cages. Dog cages are about 3 to 4 feet shorter in height than the cages these guys are in. These guys are getting taken care of far better than they deserve.
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I really want to know what is wrong with the treatment they are getting now? How would the Europeans treat theses poor souls differently?
Give them 4 meals a day not 3?
Give them 2 korans not 1?
Let them pray 6 times a day not 5?
Put them in airconditioned comfort zones not cells?
Allow them to write their families every day not weekly?
Excersise them 2 times a day not 1?
Change the color of their jumpsuits from orange to mauve?Increase the size of the cell from 8x8 to 10x10?
(btw my cube at work isnt 8x8 somebody call the UN please)
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Straffo good one :D
PS Nuke Russia!
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"And Imagine what if there was no US and british bombing of german industry."
By the time the bombing had any effect, Germany had already lost on the Eastern Front.
Daff
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Originally posted by Krusher
I really want to know what is wrong with the treatment they are getting now? How would the Europeans treat theses poor souls differently?
They would have guaranteed the basic human rights and not treated as shown on this photo which was in press.
By mistreating these prisoners the USA is loosing the moralic bonus here in Europe.
But to be realistic - there are many people here in Germany who consider the "war against terrorism" a ridiculous phrase.
You cant fight against (taliban or iraqui) terrorism and support (israeli) terrorism at the same time.
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Originally posted by Peer
They would have guaranteed the basic human rights and not treated as shown on this photo which was in press.
By mistreating these prisoners the USA is loosing the moralic bonus here in Europe.
But to be realistic - there are many people here in Germany who consider the "war against terrorism" a ridiculous phrase.
You cant fight against (taliban or iraqui) terrorism and support (israeli) terrorism at the same time.
They are getting better treatment by us than they would get from any other country in history, PERIOD.
Moralic bonus? How about our morality over the last 60 years you ungreatful twit? Remember the Berlin airlifts? You saw first hand how we deal with our defeated enemies. You doubt us now? hehe 1 picture of the guys in a holding cell before being moved to their cells and 1/2 of Europe is in an uproar. Ever think maybe we have then chackled to protect ourselves?
Yeah right, you mean when isreali gunmen go out and shoot at 13 yr old girls at a Bar Mistfa right? Or like today that isreali gunman shot 20 palestinians right? Damn those isreali terrorist, err.. wait I'm sorry these weren't Isrealis they were palestinian.
grrrrrrrrrrrrrr your mentality pisses me off....:mad: :mad: :mad:
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Your arrogance is funny but only that.
You still defend the undeniable terroristic policy of the actual government of Israel under Sharon.
Face the fact that in the occupied palestine territory also the Israelis are acting like terrorists.
So - again my question:
How will you fight terrorism if you are allied with a terroristic regime at the same time?
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Originally posted by Peer
Your arrogance is funny but only that.
You still defend the undeniable terroristic policy of the actual government of Israel under Sharon.
Face the fact that in the occupied palestine territory also the Israelis are acting like terrorists.
So - again my question:
How will you fight terrorism if you are allied with a terroristic regime at the same time?
Simple, Isreal is NOT a terrorist state. Now once the Palestinians get it through their thick skulls to stop murdering inocent Isreali children and citizens they will have a chance at having their own land. I'm not going to even bother listing all the consessions Isreal has made to Arafat. I think you would be too closed minded to believe or understand them and what they would have meant to Isreal had the PLO or PA whatever they call themselves this year had complied with what they said they wanted in the first place. Oh but wait, what they really want is the destruction of Isreal.
Simple question to you. What countries did Sharon and Arafat grow up in?
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You are wrong.
Israel IS a terroristic state.
Israeli troops behave like the SS-troops in the occupied territories. No one stops these hordes in their actions.
They destroy civilian buildings, airports, police departments and call this "fighting terrorism".
The SS had similiar arguments when they killed soviet civilians.
The consequences of such a terroristic policy is logical:
Extreme reations like suicide bombing. People who are willing to sacrifice their own life only to take some other with them.
This is moralicly and ethicly absolutely wrong but the desperation of the palestines is understandable. For decades they were tortured but the world ignored their fate.
When people see no way out - no way to change anything to a better way they fight with extreme fanatism.
Ironicly Israel produced the fanatics who are now fighting them itself.
And so there is no hope for peace in the occupied palestine territory.
What could we do ?
Nothing. Simple - but true.
We just will continue to see how the israeli and palestine terrorists fights each other and cause much pain to the innocents on both sides.
Welcome to reality...
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Originally posted by Peer
You are wrong.
Israel IS a terroristic state.
Israeli troops behave like the SS-troops in the occupied territories. No one stops these hordes in their actions.
They destroy civilian buildings, airports, police departments and call this "fighting terrorism".
The SS had similiar arguments when they killed soviet civilians.
The consequences of such a terroristic policy is logical:
Extreme reations like suicide bombing. People who are willing to sacrifice their own life only to take some other with them.
This is moralicly and ethicly absolutely wrong but the desperation of the palestines is understandable. For decades they were tortured but the world ignored their fate.
When people see no way out - no way to change anything to a better way they fight with extreme fanatism.
Ironicly Israel produced the fanatics who are now fighting them itself.
And so there is no hope for peace in the occupied palestine territory.
What could we do ?
Nothing. Simple - but true.
We just will continue to see how the israeli and palestine terrorists fights each other and cause much pain to the innocents on both sides.
Welcome to reality...
oh well gee, thanks for clearing that up. I guess we can get on with our lives now...
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In the interests of humoring the moral outrage by our more civilized cousins across the lake, what about the picture was inhumane? Giving them earmuffs? The effort to prevent a TB outbreak? Come on, you've got us barbarians right where you want us with the spotlight, out with the list.
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I`m reading the posts here and imagine some very proud people. I can see that almost anybody here knows that mistakes are only done on the other side....that`s cool.
Someone, i think it was my father, once tought me that it`s human to make mistakes....aren`t all of us human in the one or other way? So, don´t we all make mistakes?
Germany has it´s history. A history that always is used to remind the Germans of how bad they are and what their duties right now are.....
Russia has it´s history. Same as above....
Israel has it´s history, perhaps not as much as the other states, but to be real...they are not what i would call nice to the Palestinians, cutting off the water in the desert isn´t any better then shooting people.
Great Britain has a great history. But also with some dark spots.
There is no question about all that. And most people recognise that and take it as what it is, something we all should learn from.
But some people here should perhaps take a look back in the history of their own country and try to find out if there hasn´t been anything that they should learn!
There is no perfect state on this world, and in my opinion there is no important state today that hasn´t got some dark parts in their history.
Btw: I wonder what the second nuclear bomb in WWII has been good for, or if it really has been that important to drop it.
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Yeah I agree the second nuke was a mistake. Maybe it should have been dropped on another Axis nation.
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Can someone please post a link to this picture, as I can't seem to find it.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Yeah I agree the second nuke was a mistake. Maybe it should have been dropped on another Axis nation.
Great idea, drop it on a county that has already surrendered and is occupied. How many allied soldiers would that have killed?
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i caught a sound bite sunday night that had me chuckling,
i didn't catch most of the details but they where discussing the question of treatment of prisoners and and the guy in cuba they where interviewing said "the conditions under which they are being held is in strict adherance to the geneva convention, for the most part"
my opinion is the prissoners should be treated well. IMO it's more about who we are than what they deserve.
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save your breath peer, the pro-israeli programming has stuck pretty well with this crowd.
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Originally posted by Krusher
I really want to know what is wrong with the treatment they are getting now? How would the Europeans treat theses poor souls differently?
[/U.OTE]
I think the UN's,Red Cross etc main concern is their legal status.
For example.
David Hicks is an Australian citizen taken prisoner whiltst fighting for the Taliban, and currently held in detention in Cuba. He has currently no legal status because the US govt won't class him as a POW, which because there has been no proof that he is a member of AL-Qaeda is denying his basic fundamental legal rights.
He is being denied protections under the applications of the geneva conventions BUT also because if he is not a POW, then he is an australian citizen being held by a foreign nation.
Under australian law a citizen charged with a crime overseas is intitled to legal representation either by local authorities, or Australian consular officials.
This has not happened on request of the US govt, and he has been interogated by US , and Australian intelligence officers without legal representation which he should be entitled to.
The Law Council of Australia is of the opinion the US govt is denying taliban prisoners POW status because it allows the removal of inconvient rules like the requirement of only giving name,rank etc ,release after the cease of hostilities unless accused of war crimes, and legal representation in interogations.
There is also the question of the US govt possibly trying aliens in military tribunals on foreign soil, thereby denying the accused the right of appeal to a US court, without the rights of international humanitarian law, or even US constitutional safeguards unlike John Walker Lindh.
According to the US State Department's 2000 report on human rights in Egypt, "the use of military courts to try civilians continued to infringe on a defendant's right to a fair trial before an independent judiciary"
This is probably because it is highly unlikely that David Hicks could be found guilty of any crime under Australian law despite the active service of Australian troops in Afghanistan.
Tronsky
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This is probably because it is highly unlikely that David Hicks could be found guilty of any crime under Australian law despite the active service of Australian troops in Afghanistan.
Huh? Maybe it's time Australian people look closer into what their constitution is made of? In most countries fighting with arms against one's own army is classed as treason plain and simple with quite severe punishment attached.
Funked - I think your irony got lost in translation to Canadian:D
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_____________________________ _______________________
Great idea, drop it on a county that has already surrendered and is occupied. How many allied soldiers would that have killed?
_____________________________ _______________________
Thank you Thrwan...
Funkedup, please take a short review of the WWII´s history, might be better if you want to discuss here...
Do you really think your state never made any mistakes?!
At least we in Germany know what mistakes our grandparents have commited and we try to learn from them.
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Originally posted by Peer
They would have guaranteed the basic human rights and not treated as shown on this photo which was in press.
By mistreating these prisoners the USA is loosing the moralic bonus here in Europe.
But to be realistic - there are many people here in Germany who consider the "war against terrorism" a ridiculous phrase.
You cant fight against (taliban or iraqui) terrorism and support (israeli) terrorism at the same time.
the photo showed them in shackles ,kneeling wearing orange jumpsuits... how horrible !!!!
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The orange jumpsuits are not the bad thing. Hell - when US tourist visit Germany they wear clothes which are much more worse than these suits ;)
No - if the picture shown and the reports in TV are true, we have to face inhuman treatment of prisoners by the USA.
You dont have to beat someone to torture him. You can break him much more effectively with other methods - like the one shown in the picture.
These men, kneeling there, could not see, could not hear and could not speak. They are completely isolated.
After some few days even the mentally strongest of them will break.
The same method is used in countries like Turkey with the Kurd-prisoners or in China.
When these countries do such things especially the US-human-right-organisations cry out in rage and call this barbarism.
And I agree with them.
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Originally posted by Peer
The orange jumpsuits are not the bad thing. Hell - when US tourist visit Germany they wear clothes which are much more worse than these suits ;)
No - if the picture shown and the reports in TV are true, we have to face inhuman treatment of prisoners by the USA.
You dont have to beat someone to torture him. You can break him much more effectively with other methods - like the one shown in the picture.
These men, kneeling there, could not see, could not hear and could not speak. They are completely isolated.
After some few days even the mentally strongest of them will break.
The same method is used in countries like Turkey with the Kurd-prisoners or in China.
When these countries do such things especially the US-human-right-organisations cry out in rage and call this barbarism.
And I agree with them.
They were like that on the plane ride only... The RED CROSS has said no abuse was found and the prisoners were being treated fairly.
And I agree with them.
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Is your own damned fault you US-misguided guys.
It does take a really stupid idjiot to pick up those guys and carry them to the Caribbe...
instead leaving them to receive the Caring, loving, great attention of their "deep friends" in Afghanisthan (northern alliance and other anti-taliban grous), who, I'm sure, would take all kind of cares to satisfice their human-being needs...their post-mortem needs I mean,after they finish with their "love&care" sessions :D.
But YOU!!,o so criminal torturers, how do you DARE to send them to cuba, such an "horrible" place with such an "horrible" climate!...how do you DARE to FEED Them correctly!!!...and what about that of cleaning them and giving them hygiene articles!!!???...one should be really a torturer to do all that and give them all those things!!!!!!!!!
[/sarcastic mode off ;)]
What is me, you could stick a spike, with the nickname "osama" on it, into their sorry prettythanges, as I won't mind.
But I think you should send them back into Afghanistan so their caring brothers of the northern alliance could give them a "fair treatment" ;). I'm sure they would be willing to go thru that experience :D
P.S. I'm quite sure that quite some people in civiliced countries like mine, yours or anyone else's would like to have the chance to live under those conditions...as they live in the streets and have no food to put into their mouth.
those bastards are well feed, well treated, and sleeping in a more or less confortable site. yah, you are torturers :rolleyes:
P.S.2: don't be surprised about this reaction in europe. To be anti-US seems to be the fashion today. Things of being jeallous,I think.
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Originally posted by Eagler
bring ALL of the scum to Cuba, then have a prison "riot" which, very sorry to report, kills ALL of them. End of story and my tax dollars supporting their worthless murdering asses.
Eagler, if that would happen what would be the difference between you/US Goverment and them? Except the 5-year old's comment: "They started it"...and even that is arguable...
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Originally posted by Wmaker
"They started it"...and even that is arguable...
Huhm? really?
enlighten me, for I can't recall how many full of passangers 767s did the US slam against Taliban buildings full of normal people before 11 september :mad:
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Eagler, if that would happen what would be the difference between you/US Goverment and them? Except the 5-year old's comment: "They started it"...and even that is arguable...
The main diference would be that we would be alive and they would be dead.
You know you might want to consider how benificial it is right now to be anti-american. People here are pissed at that attitude after 60 years of helping the world. It would be real easy for us to stop and take care of ourselves. Where would the world be then?
Most people I know here agreed and still do agree 1000% with President Bush when he said "you're either with us or with the terrorist" Get it? Really you get it?
LOL the absurdity of accusing the USA with human rights violations with these terrorist. What a strange wacky world we live in.....
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So peer it seems after all this time that some in Germany still have a lil "something" for their Jewish friends......
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Originally posted by brainless
Btw: I wonder what the second nuclear bomb in WWII has been good for, or if it really has been that important to drop it.
I look at it like this. If you pick a fight with the big guy on the block with the intention of making yourself the big guy on the the block, don't be suprised if you get a kick in the face after getting your butt waxed.
Had a certain event NOT happened on Dec 7th 1941, I really wonder if any nukes would have been used at all.
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Well, not only tabloids , found it in "Le Monde " this morning as well, stating that indeed this was a picture taken on the 1st day...
Man, if we aren't even able to agree on matters/statements we build for ourselves(NATO)... what's it going to be when we get to more pointy matters?
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Originally posted by Peer
The orange jumpsuits are not the bad thing. Hell - when US tourist visit Germany they wear clothes which are much more worse than these suits ;)
No - if the picture shown and the reports in TV are true, we have to face inhuman treatment of prisoners by the USA.
You dont have to beat someone to torture him. You can break him much more effectively with other methods - like the one shown in the picture.
These men, kneeling there, could not see, could not hear and could not speak. They are completely isolated.
After some few days even the mentally strongest of them will break.
The same method is used in countries like Turkey with the Kurd-prisoners or in China.
When these countries do such things especially the US-human-right-organisations cry out in rage and call this barbarism.
And I agree with them.
Good grief peer. Know what your talking about before you make assumptions. The CRIMINALS (not soldiers) in that picture were inprocessing the holding area. It is standard procedure to isolate prisoner's in such a way before they are moved to permanent holding facilities. They are "treated" this way because they are dangerous and have proven (at the cost real lives) that given any opportunity whatsoever they will organize and riot.
Put yourself on the other side for a moment. Lets say you get to guard 5 prisoners who regularly tell you that given the chance they will kill you. What are you going to do...give'em a 5 star hotel room, hot chocolate and a hug so they'll feel better? Give me a break.
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R4M, How many actual Taleban members took part to these attacks? I've understood that the terrorist training camps were organized by Osama Bin Laden not by Taleban regime and that the ones trained there weren't part of the Taleban. Why would USA otherwise negotiate with Taleban about releasing Osama Bin Laden to USA? If the Taleban as a whole was behind the attacks why couldn't they start the bombing campaing right away against the enemy?
Originally posted by Udie at Work
The main diference would be that we would be alive and they would be dead.
According to what I've seen and heard the way Taleban Regime treated Afganistan and its people they are with out a doubt scum of the earth. But I think it's (at least it should be) pretty obvious that if USA is a free, democratic, civilized country something that Eagler suggested isn't an option. Actually I don't even understand why I have to explain this to anyone. At least I've understood no one can be judged without a trial in USA at least that's the way it is in Finland.
Originally posted by Udie at Work
You know you might want to consider how benificial it is right now to be anti-american. People here are pissed at that attitude after 60 years of helping the world. It would be real easy for us to stop and take care of ourselves. Where would the world be then?
Well this is something I don't want to get into. It has been fought in these boards over and over again. With just one sentence I made you say I'm anti-american? And the reason for this was the fact that I like trial-idea more than a lynch-mob one? Interesting.
One thing I don't like and that's this "world savior-attitude" some americans have. I'm grateful for the way World War 2 ended. But I bet that the people who survived the bombing of Dresten for example may not agree with this "helpers of the world-idea". They were europeans too just like the british for example. These things aren't black and white.
(Edited because of grammar and typos.)
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The USA has the world savior attitude because so many of modern Europeans states are gutless sissies that are afraid to act. Even if it happening in the middle of diddlying Europe! diddlying rutabagas cant do anything without US leadership.
Untill I see little sissy boys Francois, Goeffrey or Luigi guarding those scum I suggest that all Europe simply shup up about this.
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Go on GRUNHERZ, you're really helping your case with every word you type. :)
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Grunherz - exactly where did you run away from again? Was it that troublesome little collection of countries containing people unable to get on with each other for 5 whole minutes, without butchering each other?
You readily criticise other nations for not helping to police the world, yet your own nation requires outside help to actually exist as an independant state. People in glasshouses...
Let's get a little more specific here. It is your compatriots who apply for assylum (or actually enter illegally anyway) and are given better accomodation and a LOAD more money than a battered/raped BRITISH woman who seeks to get away from her husband. There's an example from personal experience.
I wouldn't complain too loudly if I were you - Britain has done plenty for your region of the world. As is still doing so.
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One thing I don't like and that's this "world savior-attitude" some americans have. I'm grateful for the way World War 2 ended. But I bet that the people who survived the bombing of Dresten for example may not agree with this "helpers of the world-idea". They were europeans too just like the british for example.These things aren't black and white. [/QUOTE]
Well you see, the people of Dresden at that time were Germans and as such our enemy. Do I agree with carpet bombing of cities? NO but the technology didn't exist yet back then. And actually if you look at it, the USA was already trying to limit the loss of civilian life with all the radar and radio guided bombing they started trying to make the drops more accurate. Also, my statement was not referring to WW2 or WW1, but the 60 years that have passed since ww2. We have been the world's saviors, simply because there was no other country willing or able to do so, so we stepped up to the plate. Most of the time I'm ok with this and happy that we did, I think the world is a better place than it would have been had we not.
We have a constitution which should guide our government in everything it does, but it hasn't for many many many years. I've got a copy of it right here at my desk. I've looked it over and see nothing that tells me that a POW has any right to claim any of the rights in our THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S[/i] constitution. Those rights are ours, we faught and died for them. We give those rights to people who come to our country, but that will always be subject to change. These people declared war on us, not the other way around, and then they attack our largest city. They are lucky that they haven't been tortured or skinned alive or just plain shot in the back of the head at the point of capture.
There's no point in arguing this. We have them and will do with them how we see fit. It will be fair, far far more fair than any rights they afforded any of their civilian targets. That would be women and children. Let's compare the differences in human rights between the Taliban, Al Queda and the USA...
this is how the Taliban feel about the subject... remember the women ware blue...
(http://www.thesun.co.uk/thumbnail/0,,2002030563,00.jpg)
Now here's Al Queda's view on the topic....
(http://www.thesun.co.uk/thumbnail/0,,2002030560,00.jpg)
Ok, this is what Europe is in an uproar about?
(http://www.thesun.co.uk/thumbnail/0,,2002030555,00.jpg)
Anybody who thinks we are abusing their human rights is off of his/her head. So go piss off! We got the ball and know how to run the play......
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So peer it seems after all this time that some in Germany still have a lil "something" for their Jewish friends......
Its not important if anyone is jewish, christian or muslim or whorshipping what god he likes.
The important point is not to close your eyes if someone you call a friend or ally behaves like a terrorist.
But its not only Israel which is a barbaric and terroristic regime.
Just another example of a wothy ally in the front of the anti-terrorist-alliance - LOL:
The muslim Saudi-Arabia is also a terroristic regime.
You blame the Taliban for cutting off hands, hanging people or stone others to death because of their orthodox point of view of the Islam.
That was right - this had to be blamed.
But all these things also happens day by day in Saudi-Arabia, where women even have not the right to drive alone a car.
So - to come back to my starting point - again my question:
How could you fight terrorism effectively if you tolerate terroristic friends and ignore their crimes?
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The "World Savior" view comes not just from being on the winning side of ww2. It comes mainly from the aid and assistance given to most of the countries in Europe after the war and beyond. We are talking about the Berlin Airlift, the Marshall Plan, the almost complete support of the UN and NATO. CARE, Peace Corps, and other humanitarian relief organizations I can't recall off the top of my head. Dresden was bad, many were killed. I would wager that many many more were saved through our good graces after the war than were ever killed in the bombing of a legitimate war target.
The 2nd A-bomb was used because the message needed to be sent that there were more where that came from. We only had 2. There was a real concern that Japan might assume that it took us 4 years to build 1 and our wad was shot.
On a side note, Finland was the 1st and I believe only country to actually repay its war debts to the USA.
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Yea Dowding my country did need help to sort its stuff out. And it only came when the USA became more involved- the Euros made a diddlying mess of it. The war only endeed in 1995 when the USA started bombing Serb positions and urged the RAF to help. The war ended when the USA helped the Croatian military plan the 1995 summer offensive that retook about 35% of of our countrys terrority. Then the USA helped the Croatian military get together with the Bosnian military and stop bickering and then we drove out the invaders from many areas of Bosnia too. And where exactly did the peace talks occur? Remember now where it was? cmon Dowding where now old boy. Dayton Ohio in the USA.
Europe was and is totaly gutless these days- even the USA had to take lead in the Kosovo battle. All the Europeans can do is just "peacekeep"..... Why doesnt Europe take a greatewr role in actual military fighting. Why are your governments such pathetic weakilings? Wht do you always need the USA to hold your hand and defend you? Why are you such patheci cowards who are afraid of battle? Why Dowding? Maybe its because you are so busy prosecuting people selling bannanas in lbs instead of kg.
Pathetic!
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wow my first double post in a year...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The "World Savior" view comes not just from being on the winning side of ww2. It comes mainly from the aid and assistance given to most of the countries in Europe after the war and beyond. We are talking about the Berlin Airlift, the Marshall Plan, the almost complete support of the UN and NATO. CARE, Peace Corps, and other humanitarian relief organizations I can't recall off the top of my head. Dresden was bad, many were killed. I would wager that many many more were saved through our good graces after the war than were ever killed in the bombing of a legitimate war target.
The 2nd A-bomb was used because the message needed to be sent that there were more where that came from. We only had 2. There was a real concern that Japan might assume that it took us 4 years to build 1 and our wad was shot.
On a side note, Finland was the 1st and I believe only country to actually repay its war debts to the USA.
uh oh he screwed up bigtime! He got a conservative and a liberal to agree!! :D Better watch out budy! You're in for it now!!!!!!! :D :eek:
and thanks Finland :) S!
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Let me ask in another way.....
If, and its doubtful because Europe, well except Britain, is irrelevant in real world affairs, Al Qaeda attacks a European city like they did New York. Is there any doubt that the US military will end up doing the real figting. I cant think the popsicle germans and french of today can defend themselves. They rather dress nice and look in the mirror. It will be US boys defending those rutabagas- and you guys know it.
Now break out that mirror and cologne. :rolleyes:
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Yes Grünherz, you are absolutely right.
How could I humble european forget the great US-victories in the past - like the great one in Vietnam or like the great one in Somalia or like the great one in freeing the hostages in Iran without any losses or like the great one in deposing Saddam Hussein and putting him to justice or like the great victories against the superpower-military nations of Panama and Grenada whoi threatened the weak european nations.
Oh - I also forget to mention the great victory against the Taliban.
Also a well equipped and dangerous nation.
Ok - maybe someone would say that it was not such a good idea to train Osama BinLaden by the CIA or to help Saddam during the war against Iran - especially if you consider that these Frankenstein-monsters finally turned against their masters.
But again: You are really a tough nation and we have to praise you and your straight policy day by day.
Just one thing :
KEEP GERMAN PRETZELS AWAY FROM YOUR PRESIDENTS !!!!
Maybe we are not tough any longer but our pretzels are still dangerous :D :D :D
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OK, that far i tried to be nice, but after what you just have written, i´m getting angry. Before you ask, believe me one thing, i´m for sure not anti - American, au contraire mon ami, i used to work with American soldiers for a long time and have many American friends.
But after that trash you are writing here one could say i feel personnally insulted.
Yes i´m German, and i´m proud of it!
What the Federal Republic of Germany did after WWII is great.
Thanks to America to help us to get back on our feet after the war. Btw, they for sure didn´t do it without any reason, Germany would have made a nice battlefield in case of WWIII....
But the moment you talk about Germany´s history, please consider that you are talking about the 3. Reich, not about the Federal Republic of Germany...otherwis some people might ask why all the Indians had to die or had to be dislocated....?!
Listen up Grünherz, if we Eoropeans are that bad, why the hell do you use a German name? The name of a great German pilot of WWII?
Please change it to a name of some American pilot...Buck Rogers perhaps.
Perhaps i should tell you about German rangers sitting in front of Bagdad, (btw just besides their American COMRADES, yes, both sides think that! )guiding American bombs in their targets, or i should tell you about German KSK members hunting Serb officers in the country that obviously seems to be your old place of living.....i could even tell you about German ECR bombers hunting down Serb SAM launchers...but i won´t discribe it further...
But i have a question for you.... how on world can any country help itself if all inhabitants who are able to defend their ideals leave it? I dunno, but i won´t leave my country, even if i was hunted or it layed in ashes...i would fight for my ideals!!
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Originally posted by Udie at Work
Well you see, the people of Dresden at that time were Germans and as such our enemy. Do I agree with carpet bombing of cities? NO but the technology didn't exist yet back then. And actually if you look at it, the USA was already trying to limit the loss of civilian life with all the radar and radio guided bombing they started trying to make the drops more accurate. Also, my statement was not referring to WW2 or WW1, but the 60 years that have passed since ww2. We have been the world's saviors, simply because there was no other country willing or able to do so, so we stepped up to the plate.
Well there was no need to bomb Dresten. It had been largely unbombed before that raid. It had no industrial targets. Dresten was bombed for de-moralisation purposes. Germans indeed needed de-moralisation in february 14th 1945...Ever thought about the fact that Al Queda probably thought the same way about New York as you think about Dresten? For the record I'll state the obvious: I see no justification on 9.11.2001 attacks. The saddest thing apart from loosing the lives of more than 3000 people is the fact that there is a new level of terroristic attack of which terrorists are going to try to top. IMO the world changed that day as a whole to the worse direction :(.
I'm sure USA tries to avoid civilian casualties but honestly if that would be one of its main concerns I doubt it would be using B-52s. I know they aren't just B-17s with jet engines but from the footage I've seen from Afganistan it's easy to understand why bombs have missed their intended targets.
Well, my problem is that some americans think that your country is the only one which has ever done anything good to this world. The war wasn't fought on USA's soil so of course it was more able to help than Europian countries after the war.
Originally posted by Udie at Work
We have a constitution which should guide our government in everything it does, but it hasn't for many many many years. I've got a copy of it right here at my desk. I've looked it over and see nothing that tells me that a POW has any right to claim any of the rights in our THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S[/i] constitution. Those rights are ours, we faught and died for them. We give those rights to people who come to our country, but that will always be subject to change. These people declared war on us, not the other way around, and then they attack our largest city. They are lucky that they haven't been tortured or skinned alive or just plain shot in the back of the head at the point of capture.
There's no point in arguing this. We have them and will do with them how we see fit. It will be fair, far far more fair than any rights they afforded any of their civilian targets. That would be women and children. Let's compare the differences in human rights between the Taliban, Al Queda and the USA...
You speak about PoWs and that they declared war on you. Well AFAIK US Goverment doesn't think that way. I don't quite know the word in english but US has named them "as independent fighters" or something? This way they can be treated differently in court. That's funny because Bush said that 9.11 attacks were acts of war. But now they deny that Taleban prisoners have anything to do with war. You said that your constitution applies US citizens only. That is true but I think USA has signed Geneva convention...maybe that's the reason they aren't rated as PoWs? I hope you notice that I haven't made a single remark that US is treating these prisoners badly. So if you got worked up at me about that there's no reason for it.
My point is this: Do you or do you not agree with Eagler's statement?
If USA would act the way Eagler wanted that Human rights cap between USA and Taleban would be much more narrow.
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Originally posted by brainless
Listen up Grünherz, if we Eoropeans are that bad, why the hell do you use a German name? The name of a great German pilot of WWII?
Please change it to a name of some American pilot...Buck Rogers perhaps.
ROTFL !!!!!!
Gut gebrüllt - Löwe !
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Nothing is black and white in this world Wmaker.
I'm sure USA tries to avoid civilian casualties but honestly if that would be one of its main concerns I doubt it would be using B-52s. I know they aren't just B-17s with jet engines but from the footage I've seen from Afganistan it's easy to understand why bombs have missed their intended targets.
B-52's and B1B's are used in areas like Tora Bora to provide sustained bombing. Targets inside cities are hit with the guided equipment. Saying the use of large bombers proves that the reduction of civilian casualties is not a major concern is just not a tenable stance.
Well, my problem is that some americans think that your country is the only one which has ever done anything good to this world. The war wasn't fought on USA's soil so of course it was more able to help than Europian countries after the war.
We are pretty egotistical, I'll grant you that. But we also think we have good reason to be. Sure the infrastructure of the US was intact after the War. That didn't mean we HAD to help. We CHOSE to help. Sure there were selfish reasons like...."if we help this country they will be our friend". (sinister huh?)
We gave as much to our damaged allies as to vanquished enemies.
Of course we made mistakes, we know them because we are free to know them. Isn't that great?
Still Waving the Flag Left Handed.
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Well there was no need to bomb Dresten. It had been largely unbombed before that raid. It had no industrial targets. Dresten was bombed for de-moralisation purposes. Germans indeed needed de-moralisation in february 14th 1945...Ever thought about the fact that Al Queda probably thought the same way about New York as you think about Dresten? For the record I'll state the obvious: I see no justification on 9.11.2001 attacks. The saddest thing apart from loosing the lives of more than 3000 people is the fact that there is a new level of terroristic attack of which terrorists are going to try to top. IMO the world changed that day as a whole to the worse direction .
I don't know all the facts about the fire bombing of Dresden. I do know that unfortunately demorilizing bombing was an accepted tactic of WW2. I don't agree with it I wish it would not have happened but it is out of my control to change the fact that it happened. All I can do about that is say sorry.
I'm sure USA tries to avoid civilian casualties but honestly if that would be one of its main concerns I doubt it would be using B-52s. I know they aren't just B-17s with jet engines but from the footage I've seen from Afganistan it's easy to understand why bombs have missed their intended targets.
Well bombs are going to miss their target. Too many physical variables when droping a bomb from 30k ft. I do think though that no other country in history has gone to the level the USA has to avoid civilian deaths or injuries.
Well, my problem is that some americans think that your country is the only one which has ever done anything good to this world. The war wasn't fought on USA's soil so of course it was more able to help than Europian countries after the war.
I understand and don't mean to sound that way. Please understand our view point. Our tax dollars for 60 yrs or more have gone to help places in the world. It may seem petty to equate it to money, but it has to be done. I see it every check. I give out $175 to $300 just in taxes not S.S. every 2 weeks Part of that goes to all the foriegn aid my country dolls out. I have never minded doing this it just seems to be forgotten. I don't want to be like this, but these feelings pop up in my head more and more often, worse yet the same thoughts are in the minds of alot of my friends. I think it would be bad for the world should the USA back off from giving aid to the world. I fear that this is a distinct possibility due to the attitudes I"ve been noticing. People here are tired of it. How many billions and trillions of dollars in direct money and aid have we given to Africa in that time period. That freaking continent is no diferent now than it was then, except for South Africa.
You speak about PoWs and that they declared war on you. Well AFAIK US Goverment doesn't think that way. I don't quite know the word in english but US has named them "as independent fighters" or something? This way they can be treated differently in court. That's funny because Bush said that 9.11 attacks were acts of war. But now they deny that Taleban prisoners have anything to do with war. You said that your constitution applies US citizens only. That is true but I think USA has signed Geneva convention...maybe that's the reason they aren't rated as PoWs? I hope you notice that I haven't made a single remark that US is treating these prisoners badly. So if you got worked up at me about that there's no reason for it.
Battle Field Detainees is the word. Which is exactly what they are. I can see the Taliban being called POW's and due the rights of the Geneva Convention, but not Al Queda. That aside, how do you tell them apart? What part of share the terrorist fate didn't they understand? They chose there fait along side Al Queda and now it's time for them to "share it". The reason for the B.F.D. classification, I would think, would be to deny them the rights of the G.C. which I personaly have no problem with. Even with out that classification they will have better treatment than if the N.A. had them (they'd be dead by now)
My point is this: Do you or do you not agree with Eagler's statement?
I don't konw what he said, but I agree with most of what he types here. So there's a good chance that I agree with him here, even though I'm a doper ;)
If USA would act the way Eagler wanted that Human rights cap between USA and Taleban would be much more narrow.
Please scroll up and look at my photographical comparison between USA human rights and Taliban/Al Queda human rights. It speaks to this much better than I ever could.
Here's my question to you...
If Europe is in a row over this, what is going to happen over there once the executions start?
Remember too that I'm anti-death penalty on everything except this. I hope that the European community doesn't expect us to repatriate these people back to there countries so they can regroup. Just imagine the picture of the first row of 12 detainees hanging from the gallows, hopefuly before the year is over...
PS, please believe I'm not trying to come across cold hearted or smart bellybutton in any way. Just venting some bad "feelings" that I've been having. In all actuality I haven't made my mind up what I think should happen to these guys, as if that really matters. All I know for sure is that had I been in charge they'd be dead already, I tend to have knee jerk reactions at first before I truely think something out. So from my view point our Government is giving them more than their due.
back to work....
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RAM :)
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Through me a bone, Grunherz, because currently I believe you to be as ill-informed as you are foul-mouthed. I can only echo the sentiments of my German friends here but...
Check your sources. It was BRITISH forces that lead the NATO forces into Kosovo. The British contingent (some 13,000 troops) was the largest of all the contributors, and that includes the US.
It was BRITISH forces who recently were the liason force in Macedonia, leading to the disarmament of the rebels there. BTW, a BRITISH soldier died during that minor, inconsequential action.
You'll also find it was BRITISH special forces (the SAS) who were recently tracking down Bin Laden and his henchmen.
It is BRITISH troops who are currently flying the international flag in Kabul.
So in summary, you are talking out of your arse, Grunherz. Again.
As a sidenote. You also neglect to take into consideration the size of the US (economically and militarily) compared to your average European democracy. Britain simply doesn't have the military capability to be involved on the world stage in the same way as the US. Ditto the rest of the EU. You also seem to believe the EU is as politically unified as the US - it isn't. It was initially designed as an economic pact to grease the wheels of intra-European trade - only in the last decade has it started to become a political union and it will be another 20 or so years before military union reaches any meaningful extent.
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I said the Brits fight didnt I?
Im just curious where all the others are- and why they all need USA to act first.
And I dont count peakekeepers as soldiers or a military duty- peacekeeping is no different than policework in a bad neighborhood. Only real combat counts. Peacekeepers are just targets.
As for why I use a German name, well its simple I like Bf109s and 190s and JG54 used them a lot. I like that.
And I like Europe, right now Im just angry at the turn my dear old Europe is taking. Its becoming some soft sissy pointless mess with no IDENTITY. I tell you we wont recognize her in a few years, be careful!
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But back to the topic...
Seriously dont you guys feel at all uncomfortable or at least a bit akward accusing the USA of great human rights abuses when all that we are trying to do is to protect our service men and women from what are obviously very dangerous suicidal murders.
Be honest If you have any sense of decency and self respect you must feel a bit akward dont you? Please tell me you do.
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Ok,
i never accused anybody of doing anything, i´m just talking about facts. I do this because i at least sometimes know what i´m talking about...
See, i´m a German soldier. I don´t like it to be called spineless aso. I fight for my country, for my people and for the idea of democracy....
I simply said that noone who considers himself to be a modern thinking democratic human has the right not to grant human rights .
I didn´t accuse anyone to be spineless....
Friends of mine do what you call "REAL COMBAT". And they risk their lifes for people they don´t even know, and why?! For sure not to be called spineless by anybody! They fight because they want to help stopping injustice, they fight out of idealism...something you might not understand.
Know, you can be a friend and tell people what their mistakes are, i think thats what makes a real friend...not always saying : Hey you´re right.
THAT´S spineless!!
If you accuse anybody to be anything, give names,dates and facts, never do it in a way you did.
I feel sorry for anybody who dies in a war.
I feel not unconfortable about the way Germany behaves in this situation, i would say our government was nuts if they decided to put more troops anywhere...because we already run on our limits!!
Sorry for not having as much soldiers or material as the USforces have...we simply don´t have the possibility of projection of power the way your troops have...that´s all.
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Thank you, i respect your soldiers, used to visit sandhurst and meet their general there...ex SAS...hell of a cool guy!
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Ohhh I see where where the problem is and I want to clear up something and appologize where approprite.
Im angry at European political direction or the lack of. I certainly belive that any soldier would fight and fight well only if given the chance to and allowed to act agressivley. Thats why I say peacekeepers arent real soldiers, they arent allowed to be by their leadership.
You see what I mean? You see the point Im trying to make?
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Yes i see the point you´re trying to make.
Do you know the difference between PEACE KEEPING and PEACE ENFORCEMENT?
Did you ever hear the words RULES OF ENGAGEMENT?
Being a soldier is not about being aggressive...not at all.
It´s about protecting! Saving lifes wherever possible.
And still, the EU is just starting to act as a military organisation....Europe consists of that many states with that many armies, still with less people than the US Forces...we simply cannot do anymore.
Just now as i write this post, there are about 25.000 German soldiers on duty in foteign countries, doing what i try to explain, each in his own fashion accoring to his mission, trying to keep the ideals up he´s fighting for.
Another 75000 are just now training for their future missions or are on R&R...trying to forget what they´ve seen. That makes about 100000 soldiers. We only got 245000 right now, take the medics, parts of the Marine, logistics and parts of the Luftwaffe away anf u´ll find only very few that are spare.....
We could not do more, even if the gouvernment decided to do so!
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Battle Field Detainies?? What a roadkill term. The Taliban guys are a prisoners of war. The US was at war with Afghanistan. I don't give a flying fek if it was declared or not.
Use of terms like "Conflict", "Servicing the target", and "Battle Field Detainies", are just BS, spin doctoring crap.
Al Qaeda guys, are either criminal's in the eyes, of the US or POWs. I would probably lean toward criminals. Have them go through your due process of law and be done with them.
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Originally posted by -lynx-
Huh? Maybe it's time Australian people look closer into what their constitution is made of? In most countries fighting with arms against one's own army is classed as treason plain and simple with quite severe punishment attached
Hicks cannot be charged with treason because there has been no declaration of war by Australia against the govt of Afghanistan (ie the Taliban), nor will a retroactive declaration likely be made. Australian SAS troops are in afghanistan as part of the ANZUS treaty activated by the Prime Minister. So he also is unlikely to be charged under the Crimes Act (Foreign Incursions and Recruitment Act) because he did not go to Afghanistan to fight AGAINST the government of Afghanistan. And that he was fighting against the northen alliance before australian soldiers were on duty there, it is unlikely he could be charged with whatever the US govt has charged Walker.
This is a great democratic country with a fine constitution.
Tronsky
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The problem with peacekeeping is that soldiers are not allowed to kill the bad guys.
Maybe the new Bundeswehr (terrible name IMHO Wehrmacht was much better) has a different idea but in my opinion soldiers are used to kill bad people. If you want to babysit maybe we need a babysitting blue hat wering live target corps.
Im sorry for the mocking tone but people with weapons must project the simple truth that they are willing and allowed to use those wepons to kill. I never get that impression from peacekeeping forces. Soldiers' basic mission is to kill people, not to save them. Saving people comes later. The problem with "peacekeeping" is that soldiers are placed into what are basically still active war zones with instructions not to kill people. Then they become useless targets, well not useless they are excellent human shields to sensitive enemy positions like large radar posts.....
I think European political leaders are weak and indecisive because they always knew the USA was there if anything serious were to happend. They need to fight some wars and soon and they need to do it without the USA as big brother.
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Trotski:
You make sick to be proud that this criminal who would like nothing better than to kill you will not be charged with anything.
Sorry for that trotski but thats not democracy its madness!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I think European political leaders are weak and indecisive because they always knew the USA was there if anything serious were to happend. They need to fight some wars and soon and they need to do it without the USA as big brother.
I think the Germans, French, Italians, and British have all fine armed services, and are quite capable. What they lack are numbers and the ability to finance a long conflict The English are a fine example of a military stretched across the Globe from Nth Ireland to the Sth Atlantic.
I also strongely disagree with the notion that EU leaders are weak. Hardly so, but the US is not restricted by the political minefield of German leadership by its troops being stationed outside its national borders, possibly where the German military had occupied in the 40's for example.
Europe is made of many differing cultures and opinions and aren't easily polarised into a single view.
This is not a weakness, this is a strength and they need not fight wars as some type of proof of manhood.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Trotski:
You make sick to be proud that this criminal who would like nothing better than to kill you will not be charged with anything.
Sorry for that trotski but thats not democracy its madness!
"You make sick to be proud that this " I'll assume you meant You make me sick that I'm proud.
ACTUALLY which part did I say I was proud? or even agreed...what I posted was the legal situation of David Hicks a mercenary who aparently found God while fighting for the KLA in Kosovo and went to Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban against the Northen Alliance.
He has a wife and family here, and he was fighting in a foreign county in it's own civil war. So you'll forgive me If I'll feel a little safer and assume that he wasn't out to kill me.
What I am proud of is that right or wrong the laws of this country will be adhered to, and not bent or twisted to satisfy the mob mentality whipped up by the media, condoned by political leadership.
Perhaps you'll think before swallowing whatever garbage Fox News or the like has just shown on TV
Tronsky
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That is certainly your right.
I disagree, laws are not some sort suicide pact, they need to change or be modified to suit specific instances- like this one.
I think than anyone directly involved with Al-Qaeda or Taliban after Sept11 should be punished in some way.
And yes I say after Sept11, make what you want of that, but Sept11 is when this task was put opn us. And Sept11 is when people had to decide which world to belong to, civilization or madness. Those choosing madness should be punished.
But I'm a smelly meat eating barbaric neanderthal or something right? And you are some urbane civilized progressive cultured vegitarian superhuman......
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Personally I don't think they qualify as "Prisoner's of War" since I don't think there was not a formal declaration of war on the nation of Afghanistan as we know it. There was a US led worldwide declaration of war against terrorists and their supporting elements. That makes a huge difference to me.
I would be all for pushing their Taliban/Al-Qaeda arse's right out of the helo doors over shark infested waters with a few nice cuts in really meaty parts of their bodies.
But that is just the hateful side of me talking. Lets really give these beautiful, fun-loving, "we only did it to help the Taliban" people rooms at the Plaza hotel with $1000 spending money a day in NYC.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Have any European leaders actually said anything about the prisoners?
Sure there are toons of hesitation. Mostly between people, only few politics have balls to speak about it.
Im not disenchanted, propaganda in US works great.
Its good to see that few of you still see more then black and white.
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Originally posted by brainless
Hi Grunherz,
i wonder where you are from, i mean your past in europe?!
i guess he is from southern part, because he speak 1st and then he think about it
southern people are mostly like that
:p
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Buck, you´r still not seeing the difference between PEACE KEEPING and PEACE ENFORCEMENT...bad that´s no problem...you never had to learn that.
Believe me that military has learned it´s lesson from the pictures showing UN soldiers chained to bridges, and i think that it´ll not happen again. Try to fight a peace keeper and u´ll find out what will happen. Only because they are not running around with blazing guns doesn´t mean they won´t fight if there´s the need.
THEY ARE BOUND TO TH RULE OF ENGAGEMENT. These rules were set by their leaders and the leaders of the state they are in, and believe me the restrictions normally are given by the last ones.
I´m sorry t hear that you don´t like the name "Bundeswehr". The fact that you prefer the name "Wehrmacht" makes me thinking.... why do you prefer that name, you want some old "landsers" back on the streets?!
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I just dont like the word, dont like the way it sounds- Wehrmacht just sounds, well more military....
Im Croatian and I thank Germany for its friendship and of course being the first state to recogonize our independance.
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Originally posted by Eaglecz
i guess he is from southern part, because he speak 1st and then he think about it
southern people are mostly like that
:p
Then my guess is that you are from the south right mate?
Oh please... :rolleyes: :D
Daniel, aka Cyrano
PS: Stereotyping must be one of the first things we Europeans should get rid of...
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I don't normally post in these topics, but this one hits home for me because of where i've been the last 6 months. I was deployed on a U.S. Navy ship on Sep 11th. I got to learn about the attacks mostly through E-mail, and some taped news stories flown over to us from the CV we were with. I had to watch some of my shipmates learn about thier loved ones dying that day. For the rest of that time i was underway, 100+ days at sea without stepping foot on dry land. How many of you can say you were even There to get first-hand information to even argue the points you are trying to make? Those "Detainees" (And that's what they are) are being treated quite well considering the circumstances they were "detained" under. They'll be treated that way until thier disposition has been determined. Whatever that is, It will be more humane that what happened on Sept 11th and that's for damned sure. If ya don't like the term "Detainee" then go to afghanistan for a while and serve some time. Then maybe you can talk to me about how those "detainees" are being mistreated.
-Hamish
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Read the post again Hamish, nowhere did I say I believed that they're being mistreated...nor do I. I still think "Battle Field Detainee" is still a BS term of convience. Sitting there saying, "No it's not.", doens't suddenly change that.
How many of you can say you were even There to get first-hand information to even argue the points you are trying to make?
For the rest of that time i was underway, 100+ days at sea without stepping foot on dry land.
So tell us, what's it like in Afghanistan. I mean you were there right? In Afghanistan?
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I was Underway in support of Operation "Enduring Freedom"
Enuff said
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Thanks for helping protect me and mine.
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Originally posted by Fatty
In the interests of humoring the moral outrage by our more civilized cousins across the lake, what about the picture was inhumane? Giving them earmuffs? The effort to prevent a TB outbreak? Come on, you've got us barbarians right where you want us with the spotlight, out with the list.
I heard that they were given Hamburger which were NOT fat free !!!
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Damit it's intolerable !!!!
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Hiya
The name Bundeswehr says exactly the same as the name Wehrmacht, only that today Germany is a federation (Bund).
And we took that part Macht (power) out in order not to offend anybody (...that´s at least my opinion).
I don´t know if you know, but there still are states in Europe that would like to see Germany as an agricultural state, best without an army.
So we´ve got to be a bit more careful when using words or choosing names....
We even changed the names of some barracks that had names of old Wehrmacht officers, Rommel for example. And that happened only 2 years ago.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You Euros are a pretty pathetic spineless lot these days, if it wasnt for America guarding us in second half of the century wed all be speaking russian eating borsch praising Marx and Stalin and loving it. Any you know it.
What human rights are violated here? What could it possibly be? Is it the chains and handcuffs? Or the decent food? Or the ear muffs given to them while in the planes to protect them from the noise? Or the masks for TB?
The fact is you Euros are gutless lot nowadays, Churchill is spinning over in his grave. God rest his and Europe's soul.
Its shameful!
What happend to the strong proud Europe of the past? You are so afraid of past that you just castrate youselves. Europe needs to get tough again and fast or youll just end up as one useless identiy less mass consumersist leisure class socialst sissies. Youll be the laughing stock of the world.
Aaaahhh - we could start with bringing Grunherz drugged and blindfolded back to europe and put him on trial for being anti-european and a traitor :-) :D
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lol big uc :)
CC brainless I know the the history of the change but I still think its stupid sounding, I dont like the word Bund- it has always pissed me off.
Another one that really ticks me off in sound is Bundestag instead of Reichstag, I can certainly see why the change was warranted but I dont like that word.
So would somebody in the Heer get in troble if they named their Leopard "Rommel" or "Erwin" or "Guderian" or "Heinz"?
And then theres the anthem, is it true you cant sing any of the parts that might piss of Belgium and Poland? Or any of the other parts not dealing with freedom and unity.... Only the third verse?
Blah so much PC on such a huge scale, I hope you recover and become a normal country, I see even Japan is beggining to come around with the recent official adoption of her flag and anthem and the changes allowing greater military participation abroad. Then we have to get Germany and Japan on the UN Security council as permenant members. Its pathetic and so PC that the second and third most prosperous and powerful and productive nations are not there while a lazy unproductive useless not to mention ungreatful neo-communist wasteland France is.
Lots still to be done! :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH lnot to mention ungreatful neo-communist wasteland France is.BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH
Shit !
I've completly forgotten to renew my card of the Party .... holly toejam I might get killed by the soviet when ggoing back home
Now I live in terror ... how my I face my familly my wife will denounce me to the soviet
HELP ME FOR GOD SAKE !!!
Grow up Grun ... you show lot of ignorance here.... or you forgot to put any smiley ?
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Youre French, what can I say? :)
The France thing is kind of a tounge-in-cheek comment, but the truth is not so distant. :D
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Ya can say I forgot any smiley :)
If ever you cross the lake I will show you why red wine is a good medecine againts comunism ;)
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LOL
The French are OK, they know how to live well and have fun. Thats cool. But im constantly surprised how badly run the country is and how often they have strikes my socialist type unions, and how ineffient things are. Italy is that way too for the modt part.
I read somewhere that the French Navy or a big Shipping Company had to repair one of its ships in a British shipyard because the French shipyard quoted a time schedule and price that were vastly higher than the british one. The Brits did it in four days but the French yard quoted a minimum of 4 weeks for the job.
That kind of stuff frightens me. :(
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL
That kind of stuff frightens me. :(
Me too but i've to live with it ...
During 3 year I've used french railway to got to work ...
I got as many as 19 strike for a total duration of 4 month !!
you can imagine that I was really upset ... since I've changed job it's better I'm not anymore at the mercy of those strike ...
And those strikes are done by some "priviligied" (dunno if it's english) worker who because of their status cannot be fired :(
But it's still a good country were you can live and let grow your childrens ...
Not the best world but I prefer being french than ... Somali or Afghani for exemple
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Im european and i say diddly em
every one of those prisoners should be transported from afghanistan in a diddlying pine box.
Why dont these pansy assed liberals consider how these terrorists would treat us if we were overthrown and captured?
I say as long as they get adequate water and food and they are kept in a sanitary condition they are being treated well enough.
Chains? diddlying right they are chained.Its only a shame we cant put them in a cage with the families of those who died in the twin towers.
Before the twin towers attack I would certainly have considered their treatment a little paranoid on the USAs part but now I couldnt agree more.We must show the future generations that they had a fair trial but we sure as hell dont have to treat them like diddlying guests.
would these liberal types want us to send them all for trial in their own country? by those that they have repressed and brutalised for 20 years?
I think the war on terrorism has to be recognised as a war on FANATICS not dedicated military men.These people are not professional soldiers in the sense of what our armies have become.Our own armies are more of a police force than an instrument of aggression.The taliban and their army was an instrument of oppression.They should be treated as criminals! not afforded the rights of prisoners of war as a professional soldier would be.There should be no physical abuse of course (although i really hope our lads kick the living toejam out of them! really! and i dont like the fact that i feel that way.But after sept 11 my whole outlook on the future of our planet was forever blackened by their act of total depravity.Someone has to pay for what they have done to ours and our childrens minds and dreams)
world peace? with these scum around we cant even pretend to hope for it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I just dont like the word, dont like the way it sounds- Wehrmacht just sounds, well more military....
YYYYESSSS!!! ;)
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Im Croatian and I thank Germany for its friendship and of course being the first state to recogonize our independance. [/B]
You mean in 1941?
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@boroda
Yes - the German Reich and Croatia were allies during WW2.
But I think that Gruenherz ment the following historical event:
The Federal Republic of Germany was the first country which recognized the independance of Croatia in the 90ties. France and UK who hesitated with this decision had to follow after this diplomatic advance of Germany.
@grunherz
gruenherz.... its spelled gruenherz !!!!
;)
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Babek I know that it should be "ue" if you dont use an umlautt over the u.
But guess what I dont like the way the "ue" looks so I dont use it. :)
I was reffering to the German recognition of Croatia in the early 1990s, the other Euros hesitated. Thanks Germany.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Im european and i say diddly em
every one of those prisoners should be transported from afghanistan in a diddlying pine box.
Why dont these pansy assed liberals consider how these terrorists would treat us if we were overthrown and captured?
I say as long as they get adequate water and food and they are kept in a sanitary condition they are being treated well enough.
Chains? diddlying right they are chained.Its only a shame we cant put them in a cage with the families of those who died in the twin towers.
Before the twin towers attack I would certainly have considered their treatment a little paranoid on the USAs part but now I couldnt agree more.We must show the future generations that they had a fair trial but we sure as hell dont have to treat them like diddlying guests.
would these liberal types want us to send them all for trial in their own country? by those that they have repressed and brutalised for 20 years?
I think the war on terrorism has to be recognised as a war on FANATICS not dedicated military men.These people are not professional soldiers in the sense of what our armies have become.Our own armies are more of a police force than an instrument of aggression.The taliban and their army was an instrument of oppression.They should be treated as criminals! not afforded the rights of prisoners of war as a professional soldier would be.There should be no physical abuse of course (although i really hope our lads kick the living toejam out of them! really! and i dont like the fact that i feel that way.But after sept 11 my whole outlook on the future of our planet was forever blackened by their act of total depravity.Someone has to pay for what they have done to ours and our childrens minds and dreams)
world peace? with these scum around we cant even pretend to hope for it.
Thanks Hazed! It's good to know somebody in Europe feels the same way about this mess as I do. I apreciate you posting this...
S!
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Even terrorists who have been captured by a civilized country have basic rights. They have to be treated as prisoners without being tortured in an open or more hidden way.
Its absolutely not important if they are soldiers or not. Every human being has basic human rights. This is also part of the german constitution
Artikel 1
[Menschenwürde; Grundrechtsbindung der staatlichen Gewalt]
(1) Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar. Sie zu achten und zu schützen ist Verpflichtung aller staatlichen Gewalt.
(2) Das Deutsche Volk bekennt sich darum zu unverletzlichen und unveräußerlichen Menschenrechten als Grundlage jeder menschlichen Gemeinschaft, des Friedens und der Gerechtigkeit in der Welt.
(3) Die nachfolgenden Grundrechte binden Gesetzgebung, vollziehende Gewalt und Rechtsprechung als unmittelbar geltendes Recht.
I dont say that these prisoners shouldnt get any special benifits, but they have the right to be treated as human beings with the rights every human being has.
As some other have written in this thread I also agree in the thesis that the true reason of this irrational fanatism lies in the terroristic politic of the country called Israel.
With their brutal oppression the push the palestine people into madness - and mad people make mad actions.
As long as Israels fascistoid politic is tolerated or even only ignored by the civilized world they will produce more and more terrorists.
And one further thing to mention: You really think that Mr. BinLaden is the worst terrorist of the world ?
Some years ago we gave the Red Khmer leader Pol-Pot this title, then he was succeed by the Libyan President Ghaddafi, then the iraqui president Saddam Hussein and now its the former CIA-educated BinLaden.
I am sure that BinLaden is not the last one in this endless row of mad leaders.
Just wait and see what the Israeli terror-politic will produce next for us ...
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Are you seriously implying the people you listed came to power directly as a result of Isreal's actions? Even Bin Laden only recently altered his demands to include Isreal, because it's a popular stance.
His original reason for turning on the US (aside from it generally needing to die because it is a land of infidels) is because Saudi Arabia accepted US assistance instead of Al Queda assistance in getting Iraq out of Kuwait. Isreal somehow caused that too?
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Germany's unilateral recognition of Croatia as a State is the spark that set the Balkans on fire. Suddenly every little country wanted a piece of the action.
Hazed - your average Taliban fighter isn't a fanatic like those that did the WTC in. I'll dig out a link to a reporter's experiences with them - he illegally entered the country and actually talked to some of those on the ground. His report was shown on BBC2.
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OK - Pol-Pot is surely not a result of israeli terrorism.
But people like the lybian president Ghaddafi or the oraqui president Hussein are direct results of the israeli policy.
Without Israel these men couldnt rose to the positions they have today.
Also BinLaden was a product of Israel. You are right that he started his open fight against the USA because of US-presence in Saudi-Arabia. But why are there US-soldiers? Because of the Kuwait-War. And why the Kuwait war?
Because the israeli product Hussein invaded it.
The true masters of terrorism are the actual rulers of Israel.
As long as they are not stopped we have to pay the price because the mad-driven arabs spread out to make their actions in the name of their desperation.
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@ Dowding
Croatia had and has the right to be an independent country.
They are friends of Germany and I fully supported the decision of chancellor Kohl, who stepped forward and helped them to regain their independance.
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Originally posted by babek-
OK - Pol-Pot is surely not a result of israeli terrorism.
But people like the lybian president Ghaddafi or the oraqui president Hussein are direct results of the israeli policy.
Without Israel these men couldnt rose to the positions they have today.
Also BinLaden was a product of Israel. You are right that he started his open fight against the USA because of US-presence in Saudi-Arabia. But why are there US-soldiers? Because of the Kuwait-War. And why the Kuwait war?
Because the israeli product Hussein invaded it.
The true masters of terrorism are the actual rulers of Israel.
As long as they are not stopped we have to pay the price because the mad-driven arabs spread out to make their actions in the name of their desperation.
Please enlighten us to the step by step proccess that Isreal used to bring Sadam to power? I'v read some strange stuff on this board but your's is the strangest in a while. Quadafi? Sadam? Osama? because of Isreal? Jees I guess we should have let Hitler finish the job huh? :rolleyes:
2 questions...
1. What countries did Sharon and Arafat grow up in?
2. Does Isreal have a right to exist?
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Oh man Babek. We newfoundlanders are supposed to be the simplistic dolts next to the deep reasoning of the more educated Europeans.
So, just so I have it straight, any acts committed against anyone by a person that dislikes Israel are the fault of Israel?
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Dowding you are full of toejam, Slovenia was the first one to claim its independance. So stuff it you bastard, I dont know what what you have against Croatia.
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Ok - I write it slowly, so you can follow it easier :D :D
After the 2nd WW great parts of the land of the palestines was taken away and given to a new state called Israel.
No one asked the people who lived there - there was no election - only the decision of some powerful foreign nations who behave like colonial powers.
This construction of this foreign state had catastrophical results for the arab nations there. Since then they tried to fight against the - what they call - invaders.
Their whole inner politic was dominated by this topic. Huge amounts of money were wasted in weapons, wars were fought and the hate grew by every year. Complete generations grew up with this and their hate was fueled by the aggressive and brutal politic of Israel.
Also the arabs saw that the USA always supported Israel and that this great nation was always ignoring the terroristic actions of the Israelis.
The alliance with the most arab states with the cold-war-enemy of the USA, the USSR, heated the whole situation up.
And this was the best ground for radical leaders to grow up.
Political radicals like Mr. Gaddafi, Mr. Assad or Mr. Hussein.
Does anyone really think that such radical leaders could raise under normal circumstances?
Sure - there were also great leaders like the egyptian Sadat or the israeli Rabin - but finally these men were killed by fanatics.
So the monsters - the Gaddafis, Husseins, Assads and Sharons could rose to power and continue their mad game of killing each other.
But the reason of all this developments lies alone in one fact:
Its because after WW2 some non-arab-nations decided like colonial powers of the 19th century to build a state called Israel.
By doing so they doomed generations of people living in this region.
I would not go so far to say that the state Israel has to be eliminated. But its also my opinion that the Palestines have the right to live in their own palestinian country.
Today we see how the armed hordes Sharon systematicly destroy the infrastructure of a future independant palestine state: Airports, Ports, Police departments, Radio and TV-Stations, police vehicles, helicopters and so on.
All these things were built with the help of the European Community.
Its time that someone stop this madness and help to install this independant palestine state.
After this the chances to integrate the state Israel with the neighboring nations would be much better. And with a chance for a better future the radical fanatics loose their support and maybe then the Sadats and Rabins could take their chance and overthrow the Husseins and Sharons.
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Okay, so you are saying anything anyone who dislikes Israel does is the fault of Israel. Just wanted to make sure I understood that right.
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No - I say that these radical arab leaders are logical products which grew in the atmosphere surrounding the birth and the following politic of Israel.
Like that radical monster called Hitler was a logical consequence of the Treaty of Versailles.
Thats the thing which disturbs me so much.
We could kill today 1000 terrorists - but when we dont find fair solutions for the problems which produce these terrorists day by day - we have to face the next terrorist-hordes tomorrow.
Its a shame that in the palestine/israeli region only radical fanatics rule instead of intelligent and moderate politicians.
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We could kill today 1000 terrorists - but when we dont find fair solutions for the problems which produce these terrorists day by day - we have to face the next terrorist-hordes tomorrow.
Trouble is "fair" to whom? Some of these radical groups have demands that are not only unfair they are idiotic. Thats why they are not in the mainstream. duh!
Israel ain't perfect. But it is hard to be altruistic when all of your neighbors want you gone. When steps are taken to work for peace, the terrorists take steps to nullify it. (SADAT!)
Point is....we are treating the detainees just fine.
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Hitler and Versailles is not relevant to the conclusion you are drawing. It might be for the direct conflict between PLO and Israel, but not for that entire section of the world.
A more parallel theory would be to somehow try to associate central american conflicts in the early 20th century to the Treaty of Versailles.
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babek-: Its because after WW2 some non-arab-nations decided like colonial powers of the 19th century to build a state called Israel.
Those rat-bast*rd colonial powers were collectively called the UN.
Here's a list of how they voted:
Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:
In favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.
Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
Abstained: 10
Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ps0)
...and now, a show of hands on three questions please:
1. Since the UN mandated an Independent Jewish State in 1947 (Israel), should UN members abide by this decision? (Yes or No)
2. Israel has fought a few wars to survive as an Independent Jewish State:
1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai Campaign
1967 Six-Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
1982 Operation Peace for Galilee.
Either covertly or overtly the US and/or its populace have supported Israel with money and arms to help them win these wars of National Survival.
Would Israel exist today if the US and/or its populace had NOT helped Israel with money and arms?
3. Should the US be continually excoriated for helping Israel survive?
I don't agree with all the things Israel has done or is doing by a long shot. However, they do have a history of having to struggle mightily just to be allowed to exist.
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Look - I try to tell you my feelings about this topic from another point of view:
Many germans of my generation asked their parents/grandparents why they had ignored the terrorism of the Nazis from 33 to 45.
Many got the answer that they simply havent seen any terrorism and that they were shocked when the truth was revealed after the war.
Today - even with the pro-israeli press in the western countries - we have no problems to get the true informations how the actual israeli government commits terroristic crimes.
And again many people - and this time not only the germans - are ignoring these terrorism for the same reasons like 33/45.
Its not opportune to critizise Israel today.
But why ????
If we continue to ignore these crimes its my opinion that we became like the german generation of WW2 who had the same argumentation.
But I will never forgive or ignore terrorism - I hate terrorism in a general way - and its absolutely not important for me if its arab, israeli, irish, afghan or what else terrorism.
I hate it to see all these victims - the people who died during the WTC-attack, the catholic school-children terrorized in North Ireland, the dead israelis because the next suicide-arab had arrived and the dead arab children shot down by israeli troops and so on.
I just hate the stupid argumentation of their leaders, who mostly are fanatics and fuel the hate every day.
And I have to face the fact that many work is done to bomb terrorist down but no one really search for the reasons to stop the production of the next terrorists.
In contrary - the example Israel shows that terroristic-acts are ignored, because they are done by an ally.
Thats the point which I cant accept.
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Originally posted by Toad
Those rat-bast*rd colonial powers were collectively called the UN.
Here's a list of how they voted:
Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:
In favour: 33
Against: 13
Abstained: 10
Great argumentation.
56 nations after the 2ndWW make a "democratic" vote to decide if the land of one single nation should be taken away and givento someone else.
There are much more than only 56 nations on earth - even after WW2.
The whole UN was dominated by a few powers after WW2 who used it as a moralic argumentation.
But nevertheless this was like the lineal-drawings of the northern africa borders of some colonial powers.
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Yea babek, but if Germany hadnt tried to wipe the Jews out in WW2 there would have been no world sympathy for a Zionist Jewish homeland. The only reason this happend legaly like it did was because of Hitlers little thing about Jews.
Now the only reason Palestenians are homeless is their stupidity. If they had one Gandhi or MLK it would have been a done deal by now and the Jews would be bending over to kiss Arafats ass. The problem with the Palestenians is that they are violent in response to Israel's violence. And I will say this and its a fact the Jews started the mid-east terrorism in the 1930s when they terrorized the British and the Arabs in saeres of attacks and bombings. If the Palestenians just tried the non violent confrontation practiced by Gandhi and MLK, they would have as state.
The Israeli Jews are pretty nasty and enjoy killing but even they would have to stop killing masses of unarmed people doing nin violent resistance. Then they would get tired of it and give a state.
But! Nobody forget what happend in 1947/1948 not all of Palestine was given to the Jews, the arabs decided invade the Jewish areas. Yes I know the Jews attacked and massacerd unarmed arabs.
But its onlt the arbs fault. They have a legitimate cause on their side but they decide to be violent against a superior military force. Thats why they are where they are now!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But! Nobody forget what happend in 1947/1948 not all of Palestine was given to the Jews, the arabs decided invade the Jewish areas. .
I hardly ever see this mentioned. Why aren't they pissed at Egypt or Jordan?
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Beacause most people just cite one side. The jews always point to the post 1967 terrorism AND the Holocaust as their excuse.
The palestenians only menntion the occupation and partion of Palestine.
All of it is true of course but such one sided viewpoints are useless. This is a legitimate dispute between well esentially ethincally THE SAME PEOPLE. You see Jews and Palestenians are ethinically the same- Arfat even looks like Sharon. They are just a family squabble. Semite means both Jew and Palestenian, If you dont know.
There will be no military solotion to this, It must be an an agreed upon settlement.
Basically Israel has to do this:
Give them a state. No occupation.
Stop and remove Settlements in WB/Gaza.
Give them some aouthority in Jerusalrm.
Palestenians must do this:
100% stop terrorism and support structures.
Guarantee Israel security.
Recognize Isreals right to exist.
Both have to do this:
Either both have a capital in Jersusalem or Neither. If one does and other doesnt this is no solution. IMHO it would be best if neither had one in Jerusalem.
This would work, untill then people die.
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100% agree - Grunherz.
If both sides would just be so intelligent to fullfill your peace-suggestion...
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Originally posted by Krusher
I really want to know what is wrong with the treatment they are getting now? How would the Europeans treat theses poor souls differently?
Give them 4 meals a day not 3?
Give them 2 korans not 1?
Let them pray 6 times a day not 5?
Put them in airconditioned comfort zones not cells?
Allow them to write their families every day not weekly?
Excersise them 2 times a day not 1?
Change the color of their jumpsuits from orange to mauve?Increase the size of the cell from 8x8 to 10x10?
(btw my cube at work isnt 8x8 somebody call the UN please)
You has been marked as brainless Genius
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Hi there
We had a German tank companie down in Kosovo that used to give their tanks names from nordish gods (Thor, Odin aso..).
That caused a lot of trouble.... now you perhaps can imagine what would have happened if they called one of their tanks Guderian or Rommel.
Here in Germany, even if only on exercise, it´s forbidden. Tanks are given numbers according to their position in their platoon, the platoons are given characters according o their position in the companie ( f.e.: the platoon leader tank of 2nd platoon would be B1 ).
Btw: It´s a fact that the German army completes it´s missions as well as any other army in the international theatre, but as i just said, with that lack of resources we are not capable of doing more. If you some up all the manpower our Marine can muster, you get as many soldiers as on US aircraftcarriers alone...you see, the US is the only western power (military) that is able to handle large scale operations, that´s why they usually have a leadership role.
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We need to point this thread to a chat room somewhere...
We'd get better use of the text buffer in the Arenas that way.
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Dowding you are full of toejam, Slovenia was the first one to claim its independance. So stuff it you bastard, I dont know what what you have against Croatia.
Err... before you have yet another apoplexy (I'd hate to be the unlucky guy who cut you up on the motorway), I suggest you re-read what I wrote:
Germany's unilateral recognition of Croatia as a State is the spark that set the Balkans on fire. Suddenly every little country wanted a piece of the action.
Did I say Croatia was the first nation to claim independance? No, I didn't. I said they were the first to get it in the form of international recognition.
Really, Grunherz, I expected better from you.
Err... scratch that last comment, that would be a lie.
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Dowding
Thats utter crap, I saw what you wrote but that was all clearly just a clever tactic to get a jab at Croatia and Germany. You blame us for the whole war. Thats BS Dowding and you know it. I dont see how Croatia getting recognized made anyone else break away. The Bosnians didnt do it because of German recognition- they did it for the same reason as us. The wanthed self determination and independence.
And no I dont expect better from a diddlying communist like you.
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Wrong again, my Tourette's afflicted friend. I'm merely stating fact, not supposition. Whether or not history would have taken a different course had the international community presented a unified stance on the issue of independance is the real debate. The truth is that as soon as independance was 'granted', so to speak, the game was on.
And no I dont expect better from a diddlying communist like you.
lol
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Cool down Grunherz.
The only important thing is that Croatia and Germany have always been good friends and respect each other.
So it was absolutely right that Germany helped Croatia to get their independence back.
There are always other european countries who have a different opinion.
When the question came if Germany should be reunited the UK under Thatcher tried to oppose this unification. She wanted that two german states exists in Europe.
But who cared what the british prime minister said?
The german chancellor Kohl get the OK from the super-powers USA and the USSR and after getting their allowance the unification was done.
We in Germany will never forget the help of the president Bush sr. and President Gorbatchov as we also never forget who was trying to hinder us to be reunited after the lost war.
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Dowding wrote:
Germany's unilateral recognition of Croatia as a State is the spark that set the Balkans on fire.
Maybe Britsish english is different than American but this clealy says that you think Germanys action "set the Balkans on fire, this means you think it started the war.
Once again, tourettes syndrome or not: diddly YOU
The war happened because Milosevic is a nutcase who wanthed total control, you know the guy on trial for Genocide.
lol
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Originally posted by babek-
as we also never forget who was trying to hinder us to be reunited after the lost war.
Lol, thats how WW2 got started wasn't it?
Tronsky
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Wow, what a discussion! There are lots of posts here that could be source material for a book called, "How to NOT win friends and influence people". Fascinating reading though, to say the least.
By the way, I will put a plug in here for my German buddies. There are a number of German Air Force stationed here in my unit, and they are the most professional and competant of any nationality here. Saying bad things about the Germans as a whole, or any other European country, simply because of the actions or statements of a few extremists that they happen to be afflicted with, would be no different than if somebody over there read about some crazy statements by Jesse Jackson, Ralph Nader, or Pat Buchanen, and assumed that all Americans were like them or agreed with them. (I hereby submit that last sentence for the run-on sentence of the year award) :)
The bottom line on the prisoners in Cuba, which was the original topic, is that they are dangerous terrorrists. They have forfeited their rights to humane behaviour, but we, as the guys in the white hats, are going to treat them better than they deserve. We will give them food, freedom to practice their religion, and a fair trial. It is very unlikely that many of them, if any, will get the death penalty, no matter how much they may deserve it. Anybody that thinks that these prisoners are being treated inhumanely needs to think again. If they were treated more leniently, and with less caution they might have the opportunity to fulfil their stated desire to kill some of the Americans that are guarding them.
Which is better? (A) we bend over backwards to make sure that the prisoners arent inconvenience in any way, by not handcuffing them during transport, and they attack and kill a guard or two, and start a situation where perhaps some of them get killed as well. OR (B) we take all precautions to make sure that the prisoners are kept under control at all times, thus ensuring the safety of the guards, and ironically actually making it safer for the prisoners as well, by preventing them from starting a riot or something.
These arent permanant accomodations for these prisoners, by any means. Save your sympathy for somebody who actually deserves it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Dowding wrote:
Germany's unilateral recognition of Croatia as a State is the spark that set the Balkans on fire.
Maybe Britsish english is different than American but this clealy says that you think Germanys action "set the Balkans on fire, this means you think it started the war.
Once again, tourettes syndrome or not: diddly YOU
The war happened because Milosevic is a nutcase who wanthed total control, you know the guy on trial for Genocide.
lol
Yet another example of positive mentality.
GH, if there was no people like you - I should have invented them.
Didn't the war start because of some Croatian nutcase who wanted to become a local monarch instead of living in a peaceful federation? What was the reason for war? Genocide of Croatians?
Does anyone still listen to you after you praised nazi military in this very same thread? You are on the way to become my favourite clown.
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"Didn't the war start because of some Croatian nutcase who wanted to become a local monarch instead of living in a peaceful federation?"
Do you have any idea what the country was really like circa 1989-1990?
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Bloodthirsty Serbs were killing Croatian babies?
Anyway - thank you for showing us Soviets how not to handle the collapse of the Union state... Believe me or not - but in early 92 Russian military seriuosly discussed the situatuion of a Russia/Ukraine nuclear conflict :( Poor bastards...
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Well that didnt happend till a bit later.... Vukovar?
But you dont honestly belive the Milosevic dominated yugoslavia was a "peaceful federation"?
You once told me that many Russians including yourself looked at Yugoslavia as a dream case of effective socialism- maybe this admiration of Tito era Yogoslavia has clouded your vision of what it was like after him. It was dead with Tito, who was of course a strongman dictator type but a surprisingly effective and well regarded leader both at home and internationally. Just look at the people who came to his funeral.
Look Boroada I know you Russians share this inferiority complex with the Serbs and that you find a certain kinship with them but please dont let this lead your commentary on this subject. The Serbs werent the big victims in this war as you think.
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Originally posted by babek-
Great argumentation.
56 nations after the 2ndWW make a "democratic" vote to decide if the land of one single nation should be taken away and givento someone else.
There are much more than only 56 nations on earth - even after WW2.
The whole UN was dominated by a few powers after WW2 who used it as a moralic argumentation.
But nevertheless this was like the lineal-drawings of the northern africa borders of some colonial powers.
(Sorry I didn't see this reply till now)
Ah, thanks for explaining then.
Post-WW2 the UN was merely a front for a few powers.
I guess then everyone should have ignored all UN statements, mandates, edicts and resolutions until it became truly representative of the entire world then, right?
When did that occur, by the way?
[/sarcasm]
Obviously, it had to START somewhere. Think about it.
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doesn't it strike you as odd though, toad, that at that u.n. vote in '47 the palestinian appeal for a representative, ethnically integrated democracy to be established in the land administered by the san remo treaty(palestine) was scrapped by the u.n. in favor of a segregated jewish and arab state?
especially since arabs then owned 91% of the land in question and comprised 2/3 of the population?
and in such close proximity to the despicable thanksgiving recess lobbying, threatening and bribing efforts by proponents of israel?
why did the new "representatives of democracy" spit so firmly in the face of a democratic proposal?
the u.n. is the u.s. - it was then and it is now.
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Originally posted by mrfish
the u.n. is the u.s. - it was then and it is now.
Sorry, don't buy it. Not then, not now.
Check the list of those who voted "for" again. The USSR? Lackey of the US in '47? Nope.
Israel got its statehood because of 1939-1945.. I think those years explain the "for" votes.. particularly given the "revelations" of what actually went on in those years that were made public '45-'47.
The US is the UN now? Nah.. look at the recent treatment the US got on the committee selections.
My point is that it has to start somewhere. The Nations of the world either support the UN or its a pointless organization.
Your point is that the US had UN dominance in the post-WW2 era. (Notwithstanding that I don't necessarily agree with your hypothesis anyway. :) Like I said.. I fail to see the Russians as US lackeys in '47) And so? What if it was true. It all still had to start somewhere. Look at the post-war era. Who else could lead?
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For everyone that missed it. They were held that way while they were processed into the camp from the aircraft.
Who cares what they do with them. Once they have all the info they can get from them concerning their recruitment. These guys know who recruited them in thier home countries...dont we want to know that guys? Dont the Euros want to know that?
The biggest idiot in all this is our canadian Prime minister as ususual.
Picture all over the world papers of some talliban being escorted off of a sea stallion by "US" comandos..turns out it was canadian comandos and those talliban where turned over to the US before the our PM spouted off about how we would not turn our prisoners over to the US...
So now to properly interrogate all these terrorists the US will have to fly back and forth between Canada and Cuba to cross reference and coroborate their stories...
How to cripple this critical portion of the war before it is started..
We are dealing with a terror network..dont we see the neccesity of finding out as much as we can about its interantional network while we have these guys disorientated?
My old unit is sending its advance party to Afganistan today. Watch the canadain gov cripple our contibution and waste the effort of our fighting men with stupid weak blather.
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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry, don't buy it. Not then, not now.
Check the list of those who voted "for" again. The USSR? Lackey of the US in '47? Nope.
.. I fail to see the Russians as US lackeys in '47) And so? What if it was true. It all still had to start somewhere.
how does russia's -for- vote indicate their subservience to the u.s.? given russia's attitude toward their jewish population i imagine they had enough of an agenda to vote for a homeland.
one or two countries like russia or china doesnt change the fact that the u.s. runs the show. they have the most allies and decisions are made by vote - its obvious mathematically how this is an advantage.
a -for- vote doesnt indicate compliance with the u.s. but it also doesnt negate the fact that a lot of -for- votes were on the record as -against- votes* before the last minute bribe-o-rama or that a lot of those -for- votes really were u.s. lackeys.
*(i believe the unofficial changed vote number over the break was 18 with some of those changes going from against to abstain rather than switching to for - read why the philipines or haiti or especially liberia changed their mind and i think the crime here is obvious)
it also doesnt explain why we took a stand counter to democracy and in step with segregation and subjugation.
you are right in that the u.s. was the clear choice to take the lead after wwii. unfortunately we let u.s. interests and lobby groups take the lead instead of our guiding principals. not unlike today.
what would have been wrong with establishing a powershare/landshare/ethnically integrated government as proposed? they didnt want that? tough sh*t its what they get. it didnt serve jewish interests and they had a bigger lobby plain and simple.
how much "old arab money" was in the u.s. back then. how did arabs figure into industry and politics in the u.s. back then? how many arabs had senators personal telephone numbers in their secretaries rolodex? any arabs loaning big money in the u.s. back then? any captains of arab industry like textiles or other major goods throwin around big campaign dollars?
sorry, the officially sanitized version doesn't wash like so many other absurd officially acceptable positions. we should have had the orbs to stand up against the pressure and do right by the people who were displaced by this disaster in the first place. we could have avoidex years of bloodshed.
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Originally posted by mrfish
the u.n. is the u.s. - it was then and it is now.
Then you agree it took far more than the US alone to create the Jewish state? Other countries... normally or nominally opposed to the US... had an interest in it as well?
before the last minute bribe-o-rama or that a lot of those -for- votes really were u.s. lackeys.
Details and corroboration please. I've read some about this and undoubtedly there was "arm twisting" as there is in ANY country's political voting process to get it done. No argument there. Let's see the details on the "crime" aspect? Do you have any refrences that show this was something other than "hardball politics"?
The point I'm making is that EVERY political process if filled with such wrangling and arm twisting. Show me the criminal aspect please. I've yet to see proof positive.
Further, assume you are correct. Assume something illegal occured. What do we do now... nearly 55 years later. "Whoops... do over!" No, I believe one would have to admit the horse is out of the barn here. We're going to have to deal with Israel as a state from now on.
it also doesnt explain why we took a stand counter to democracy and in step with segregation and subjugation.
Come on Fish; you are not going to represent 1947 USA as a paragon of integration and human rights are you? Particularly our political apparatus at the time? Separate rest rooms, "back of the bus", Tuskeegee airmen? We've come a long way since then.. but let's admit that the journey most likely really started in the '60's with King.
you are right in that the u.s. was the clear choice to take the lead after wwii. unfortunately we let u.s. interests and lobby groups take the lead instead of our guiding principals. not unlike today.
... Don't tell me this suprises you. National interests generally define a nation's foreign policy. Any nation; even the totallly altruistic ones (if there even is one :) ) are altruistic in their own interest if you get my drift. Special interests? Was it EVER any different? Will it EVER BE any different? In ANY nation? Politicians draw lobbyists the way dung draws flies.. in every country in the world.
Beyond that, once again, it obivously wasn't JUST in the national interests of the US. The other nations were serving their interests as well. Could it be possible the other nations felt it was in their BEST interest and at the same time it was in the WORLD'S BEST interest to set it up this way?
You're going to say "no" because you are self-admittedly very anti-Israel.
But it is tough to totally rule out the possibility that the "for" voters really DID think they were doing a good thing, isn't it?
the people who were displaced by this disaster in the first place. we could have avoidex years of bloodshed.
You ARE talking about the Diaspora in 720 BC here, right?
Not mocking here... it just sorta depends on how far back you want to go, doesn't it?
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"- read why the philipines or haiti or especially liberia changed their mind and i think the crime here is obvious"
ah, there we go - back safe and sound in the context it was stated in! shame on you for making such a long silly argument over my figurative use of the word crime ;)
i'll be sure to use 'injustice' next time so you dont go looking for case law. did you really think i meant a broken staute crime or is this another toad "war of attrition" argument where you lock on to some syntactic issue rather than substance?
well...if you want to see that as literal maybe we could introduce the fact that president rojas of the philipines was lobbied on behalf of jewish interests by two u.s. supreme court justices (isreal and the arabs isbn 1-57500-184-5), there's surely some crime in there somewhere or maybe not - it is to me and at any rate i'll leave my original statement in the sense it was intended.
if you get swindled out of your money legally, it feels just like getting it stolen from you. the takee is still a thief and the taken is still the victim, you call it what you want.
whether some other countries like russia would have voted for or not doesnt change the fact that u.s. lobbying efforts and threats changed SOME votes of SOME nations, therefore changing the fate of the palestinians, therefore negating the ability of the u.n. to work in an unbiased way reflecting the true will of its member nations and making it an instrument for u.s. will worldwide.
"hey haiti why dont you vote this way or we will take away that loan package"
"oh yowsa bossa whatever you says..."
that is not the spirit of the u.n. and us strong-arming nations disrespects them and makes them subjects.
having a bunch of lackeys that will always vote as their told makes the voting process useless in the first place.
plain and simple, we were aksed this question; should we:
A: push the people who are in palestine out of the way and install a bunch of foreigners against their will where their homes used to be?
or
B: take the palestinians offer to let them come live there under a shared democracy and on shared land.
well who could pick anything other than A right? i mean it worked on the injuns and if any pesky 'terrorists' like geronimo pop up we'll just give them money to kill 'em.
what's the solution?
two states or one democratic shared state - period. the current bully-system must end.
although i have to admit my personal favorite solution is to cut aid off completely and let the chips fall where they may -
i know that will never slide though. i mean we have closed bases and put americans out of work to stay in budget but we have never decreased our aid to israel. we even give them money to then give to other countries as their foreign aid budget - can you imagine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we also give them money for weapons r & d AND we back the loans of their lenders up to 2 billion dollars!!! whose cock are they on to get all these favors??? our rotten lawmakers thats who.
thats a 'crime' too.
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Originally posted by mrfish
over my figurative use of the word crime ;)
Sorry. I didn't see the [figurative]...[/figurative]. My fault I guess.
I haven't read why "read why the philipines or haiti or especially liberia changed their mind " so, indeed I thought you might be referring to some illegal activity.
Or perhaps you could help me and tell me when you mean what you write.... or when you are just being "figurative".
by two u.s. supreme court justices
And so? Is it in fact illegal or morally reprehensible for officers of our government to lobby the government's position to other governments? Isn't that what Colin Powell is out doing lately? That's what government officials do, isn't it?
whether some other countries like russia would have voted for or not doesnt change the fact that u.s. lobbying efforts and threats changed SOME votes of SOME nations,
Jeez, come on Fish. EVERY government does that, even in the UN. I mean simply debating or discussing is a "lobbying effort".
Let me ask you this: Were the "nay" voters, particularly the Arab nay voters running around lobbying other nations to vote no.. and making threats... say like threatening to attack any Israeli state as soon as it was declared?
therefore negating the ability of the u.n. to work in an unbiased way reflecting the true will of its member nations and making it an instrument for u.s. will worldwide.
Please. The UN working in an unbiased way? Hey, I've been called the eternal optimist and even Pollyanna.. but is there ANYONE out there who believes this will happen? The US is the sole bad actor in the UN drama? Nah. The "brotherhood of man" has yet to arrive as far as I know.. and I'm thinking it'll be a while.
having a bunch of lackeys that will always vote as their told makes the voting process useless in the first place.
Show me something that documents these threats you mention. Give me a link to the implied retribution you mention.
A: push the people who are in palestine out of the way and install a bunch of foreigners against their will where their homes used to be?
I ask again, Fish. You are familiar with the first major Diaspora of 720 BC, not to mention the ones that followed? Want to talk about "driven off their land"? Where do you want to start? I'd say 1947 is way too late, eh?
two states or one democratic shared state - period. the current bully-system must end.
It's going to be 2 separate states. And it's going to be that MEAN OLE USA that is going to push that thru the UN. Bush already said it's on the table and it will progress from their. We'll be sponsoring it thru the UN.. and twisting some arms, I'll wager.. oh, wait.. NO, that would be evil. ;)
although i have to admit my personal favorite solution is to cut aid off completely and let the chips fall where they may -
Your solution would result in a nuclear war, with more dead Arabs in many states than dead Israelis. Even if it was conventional, that would be true. I don't think the Arabs want to make the Israelis show the competency of the Israeli military yet again.. I hope.
we also give them money for weapons r & d AND we back the loans of their lenders up to 2 billion dollars!!! whose cock are they on to get all these favors??? our rotten lawmakers thats who.
I'm not as "pro-Israel" as you appear to think. I'm bothered by the deals and excess consideration they get. OTOH, I'm not Israel-o-phobic either.
It's a mess. It's always been a mess. Blaming it on the US is laughable. The problem predates us by nearly 1000 years. If there's any chance of getting the two separate states, we're very close to the time. I'm not sure that will solve it, however.
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Originally posted by straffo
Being a good Euroland citizen I choose the Euro Way :
I'm starting a subscription for those poor Taliban's prisonner of those nasty fat hambuger eater ...
Leason learned : stop thinking with "cliché".
ROFL
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Originally posted by Udie at Work
Boroda,
hehe I'm laughing too hard. S! Comrad. LOL LOL LOL I'm thinking of a Russian propoganda film I saw from durring the Afgan war 20 yrs ago. In the video it showed the Russian troops "building houses and schools for our Afgan friends" I think it's just about the funniest thing ever to hear you talk about propaganda. PRAVDA LOL!!!
hehe we still watching them in TV, because people forgoten very fast.... But what is even more funny is fact, that most of western habbits are exatcly same but in difrent colours