Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pongo on February 01, 2001, 07:06:00 PM
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Just got
VIII Fighter Command At War
"Long Reach"
The official training document compiled from the experiances of the fighter escorts of the "Mighty Eighth"
Its an Osprey Aircraft of the Aces Special.
Accounts written in wartime by serving pilots to prepare trainees for combat...
Well
In order of the things that I thought AH had trouble with...
Even from dead 6 violently manuvering planes are VERY difficult to hit.
This is recounted several times just in a quick reading.....Always bugged me but there is definate consensus in this book.
Poor control of diving german planes. I always felt this was over done in AH. Only because it doenst seem to make scence to make an E fighter that handles poorly in a dive....
They were sure that all three US planes could countrol better in a dive then the german planes,they counted on being able to maintain control in a dive much better then the germans.
The HO....
Not one of my pet peeves but I have seen time again on this board and on channel 1 people stating that HOs are non historical...
Well these guys were all HO dweebs. Bounced...HO Gerry doent have the balls for it. HO HO HO...everywhere. the Jug pilots lived for it. I have allready seen this mentioned in Canadian spitfire accounts. They went for the HO as a matter of course...
...Live with it.
Ranges of fire..
The majority seem to hold true to the Whites of their eyes kind of thing. But they are talking about opening up on bombers and twin engine planes at 7-800 yards...
They dont seem to be sure if they can out turn the germans or vis versa..the particular E state of the planes at the time seems to be what they say to watch when determing turning ability.
I really enjoy this book. It certainly is a ringing endorsment for AH as an imitation of WW2 NWE late war air combat.
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Also, the 109G/K is a 1939 airframe modified by adding plenty of armour, and a big 1944 engine.
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Yep, you see a heck of a lot of HOs mentioned in the accounts of WWII fighter pilots.
And regarding another thing that people get their panties in a bunch about, there are a heck of a lot of accusations of "chute shooting" by the other side, too.
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I'll have to check that book out.
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Agreed Torgo, especially about the chute shooting. Every country did it. And every country says they only did it because the other side did it to them first. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Funked,
Well, according to the LW, US chute-shooting of LW really ramped up after the Battle of the Bulge..
The SS Malmedy massacre really had a powerful impact on the US....a lot of people were out for revenge.....
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In Tom Blackburn's book about the history of VF-17 he quite unashamedly talks about 'chute-shooting' as a matter of course.
And in 'The First and the Last', by Adolf Galland, he recounts a conversation with Goering in which he regarded chute shooting as murder, and something he would not condone from his pilots.
Interestingly, he also talks about the Me-262 pilots being regularly 'chute-shooted' by US pilots.
Maybe chute shooting is a US disease, and that's why you see it advocated so much on these forums (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It certainly is a ringing endorsment for AH as an imitation of WW2 NWE late war air combat.
Yup it sure is. Many a real life WW2 pilot was thankful that he couldn't be bounced because the enemy hard large red neon signs floating in space above his aircraft.
Get real. The ONLY similarity between AH and WW2 air combat is the names of the aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Utter roadkill.
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"Killer" Caldwell got his nickname for shooting chutes.
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I dont recall who, but I read in this forum some days ago that one US pilot crashed while straffing chutes.
The F*cking idjot got what he deserved.
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Yes, the book is a very good reading. About HO's ... I understand that breaking into the bandits was the first maneuver to do. But I'm not sure that they pressed the attack to the very end ... more likely the germans broke away when they saw HOing Jugs. They (US pilots) broke into attacking bandits even when they were low and bounced, just to disrupt enemy formations.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Originally posted by Pongo:
...The HO....
Not one of my pet peeves but I have seen time again on this board and on channel 1 people stating that HOs are non historical...
Well these guys were all HO dweebs. Bounced...HO Gerry doent have the balls for it. HO HO HO...everywhere. the Jug pilots lived for it. I have allready seen this mentioned in Canadian spitfire accounts. They went for the HO as a matter of course...
...Live with it...
I'm going to get it. Sounds great. I read Boyingtons Baa Baa Black Sheep. He talks about HO'ing a Zero. He noted that the .50's didn't drop as much as the Zero's 20mm's. The 20mm's dropped under his plane. He got the HO. It didn't sound uncommon from his story. I have also read that it wasn't something any pilot liked to do. The risk of collision was greater. I think AH matches this fairly close. You can HO for sure but you are taking a greater risk when doing it generally.
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Galland was shot down like 11 times . Think of how many lives would've been saved if he'd have been shot while in his parachute harness the first time .
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Using that logic, Suave, Hitler was right.
Man in a chute(in real life, not this game) is a non-combatant.
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yes HOs were in RL, but far less deadly then they are here.
Originally posted by Torgo:
Yep, you see a heck of a lot of HOs mentioned in the accounts of WWII fighter pilots.
And regarding another thing that people get their panties in a bunch about, there are a heck of a lot of accusations of "chute shooting" by the other side, too.
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Bah. Not one definitive source of information exists that will ever prove whether a country practiced this as policy or didn't. I think we can all be reasonably certain that, with air services the size of all participants' in WWII, there were bound to be pilots that attacked chutes in the heat of the moment. Think of it as 40's "road-rage". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
Using that logic, Suave, Hitler was right.
Man in a chute(in real life, not this game) is a non-combatant.
You can bomb/strafe enemy soldiers when they cannot fight back.
You can shoot them down while they are in a transport plane or ship when they cannot fight back.
You cannot shoot a guy who just fought you and will be sure to fight you again before the day is over...? What the heck?
It is unacceptable to kill an enemy who surrendered. If he is unable to surrender - tough luck.
Swift destruction of the enemy fighting ability by any means necessary is the surest way to minimize losses on both sides of a conflict - military and civilian.
And what is that about Hitler? Did he ever ventured an opinion on shooting chutes?
miko
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Goering brought up the firing on parachutes deal with Galland. He got the answer he expected (no way in hell) and then said something like "Thank you Galland, this gives me some backing should the subject ever come up". Odds are this little line was a slight aknowledgement that Hitler was seriously or off-handedly considering issuing an order to fire on Allied pilots hanging in 'chutes.
The Russians claim the Luftwaffe fired on their chutes first, the Luftwaffe claimed the reverse. The same goes for the Allies; they say "they shot at us first!" and the Luftwaffe said the exact opposite. Since two sides claimed the same thing, the Luftwaffe was obviously shooting men in chutes! Personally, I think it all got started when some snot-nosed kid in a P-47 got pissed when an Experten nailed his CO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/headbanger.gif)
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Of course the US pilots shot chutes, if they didn’t, they knew they would have to face the guy again. He was still a target and they had a very good reason to kill them. On the other hand, the Germans didn't have that reason. When they saw a guy bail they knew he was going to a POW camp. But on the Eastern front, like the Pac war, they (all sides) had a good reason to kill everybody they could get a shot at.
I mean if some guy is trying to kill you today and there he is floating to the ground and he’s just going to get in another plane and try again tomorrow, I’d waste them and sleep better that night.
But in this game I just do it cause it makes me laugh.
That and it adds to the FDB’s squad score (they’re real point potatos)
PC
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
Using that logic, Suave, Hitler was right.
Man in a chute(in real life, not this game) is a non-combatant.
No . What made Hitler so much more evil than your average tyrant was that he murdered prisoners . Galland never surrendered , he was NOT a noncombatant . As a matter of fact when he did surrender and become a prisoner of war we made him one of our own . He flew as a fighter pilot for quite awhile for West Germany . Shooting a pilot in a parachute who is over occupied land is stupid , POWs are worth more than corpses . Shooting a pilot that is in a parachute over enemy held territory , well that is just protecting your countrymen . It's nothing personal, Galland is alive today and I'm sure that he would agree with this . In retrospect we, (allied forces of WWII), weren't out to destroy Germany, we were saving it from Hitler's fascism . Now so many years later I am proud that the good people of Germany are united in peace and are our friends and allies . Hitler was defeated, Germany is victorious .
[This message has been edited by Suave1 (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Suave1,
If I recall correctly, Galland died in 1996.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, I didn't know that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) . I have seen him on tv and in interviews , he seemed like a very amicable fellow, not too different from many of us who share this past time .
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Originally posted by funked:
Agreed Torgo, especially about the chute shooting. Every country did it. And every country says they only did it because the other side did it to them first. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nope, funked...finns never did it...even though russians did it to the finns...
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The Allied forces goal was to destroy germany`s ability to wage war.No saving germans from Hitler,none of that nice guy stuff.Pilots were ordered to shoot bailed enemy on their chutes ,preventing them from fighting another day.Planes destroyed on the ground were counted as any other victory in the air for the USAAF pilots.They were ordered to starfe livestock on the fields ,and lit up cropfields ,shoot at civilians that work on the fields.
As one US bombercrew member said on TV `If all a woman did ,was make a sandwich for he`s husband ,before he went to the ammo-factory ,than he wanted to kill her ,to prevent her from doing it ,and help the war effort.`
War is dirty buisniess ,and pilots were just as active part of it as anybody else.
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Originally posted by Wmaker:
Nope, funked...finns never did it...even though russians did it to the finns...
First, that is completely opposite to what I was taught in Russia. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Second, Finland did not really fight in the war other then the original offensive when russian airforce was knocked out. They most likely had a secret agreement with russians.
Russians were able to remove practically all the forces from the area where finns were besiedging Leningrad.
Not only did finns declined to advance against nonexisting resistance to put an end to the siedge, they did not let germans into the area despite several demands - read german generals' memoirs.
Russians serving there recall that they actually communicated with finns and received some supplies from them!
There was a joke then that there were only two armies at peace in Europe - the Sweden and the Soviet 6th army - the one opposing the finns at Leningrad.
No wonder they did not want to shoot each other - in chutes or out.
Also no wonder that Finland was let alone after the war.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Not one of my pet peeves but I have seen time again on this board and on channel 1 people stating that HOs are non historical...
First time Chuck Yeager was shot down in his P51, it was in a HO. The difference in the MA and real life is that u needed balls to HO someone bellybutton u could die big time.
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Firing at aircrew in their chutes is officially against U.S. Rules of engagement. Firing at airborne soldiers in their chutes is acceptable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Was this the case during wwii....not sure. Anyone got an old copy of the rules of engagement?
CRASH
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HO DWEEB!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Flakbait... not only that, I recall reading a story of a German fighter escorting an injured British plane (don't recall if it was a fighter or a bomber) across the English channel back home and left him unmolested.
War is hell and pilots are just as human as the rest of us.
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and i suppose the massive amount of bombs dropped by all sides on cities like dresden, tokyo and london were designed to kill combatants only?
- everyone was fighting a "total war" -
[This message has been edited by mrfish (edited 02-02-2001).]
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In war, a soldier is just another resource, whether he's a pilot or an infantryman, and often times they were treated as such by their opponents. Is a murderer a murderer without a gun in his hand?
SKurj
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Originally posted by miko2d:
First, that is completely opposite to what I was taught in Russia. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Of course it is...Russian propaganda said all kinds of things what finns will do if they catch russian soldier alive. That's why many russian soldiers killed them selves when it was obvious they were going to end up captured. For example one russian fighter pilot bailed out over Finnish territory shot himself in the head to avoid capturing (I know, I know why bother to pull the ripcord anyway, but this is a true story...come to think of it it's not nice to watch ground closing at 200 km/h...much easier to shoot half of the head off). And when russian archives opened for inspection it was found that russians had claimed more air to air victories against finns in Winter War than
Finnish Air Force had planes, LOL! Our
main fighter during Winter War,Fokker D.XXI had kill to death ratio of 18 to 1. Too many kills in the archives come basically out of the fact that russian fighter pilots
made claims of planes they never shot down. That is why I really don't give any gredibility what so ever to them claiming that finns shot russians in chutes. It is said russians were ordered to do so. And if you think of it it really is logical tactic fighting against small country with small number of kick-ass pilots.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Second, Finland did not really fight in the war other then the original offensive when russian airforce was knocked out. They most likely had a secret agreement with russians.
If my grandfather were still alive I think he would SLIGHTLY disagree on this!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) I give you change to take this one back...believe me finns were in war against the russians EVERY DAY during Continuation War!!! War is war even if the front stays the same for a long time!!! Claiming anything else is a discrace to all the veterans and young men who gave their lives during Continuation War!!! Even if big attacks weren't made on daily bases...men surely died/wounded every day. If that's not war...tell what is it then?
Originally posted by miko2d:
Not only did finns declined to advance against nonexisting resistance to put an end to the siedge, they did not let germans into the area despite several demands - read german generals' memoirs.
Finns' goal in Continuation War was to take back areas which were lost in the Winter War. Finns went over the old boarder because of couple of reasons...finns' personal reason was to gain land for stalling russian counter attack which would surely follow sooner or later. This was one of the big factors in saving our independence. IF finns had gone to Leningrad then what would have happened to all the population still alive in Leningrad?? Finns didn't have the resources to deal with problems like this. How we were supposed to be able to leave city as big as Leningrad behind our lines???
Should we have just shot all these people???
We didn't have any food to give them either, you know. And above all we had already reached our military goal: to take which rightfully belongs to us.
1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."
J. Stalin 1948
[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Originally posted by mrfish:
and i suppose the massive amount of bombs dropped by all sides on cities like dresden, tokyo and london were designed to kill combatants only?
- everyone was fighting a "total war" -
Finns bombed military targets only.
1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
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Wmaker ,let Miko alone. A stupid that says that we spanish should thank Hitler for putting Franco in the seat of power in Spain for 40 years is nothing short of an useless dork.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Btw, there are only two zero deflection shots in ACM...
That means all of those pilots who couldn't do deflection shooting only had two certain shots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Moo! to fanatics, Neigh! to everyone else.
-- Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
Dirty Turd Poop Group www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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Originally posted by RAM:
Wmaker ,let Miko alone. A stupid that says that we spanish should thank Hitler for putting Franco in the seat of power in Spain for 40 years is nothing short of an useless dork.
I see, RAM - everyone who does not agree with you is a useless dork.
So all the spaniards who supported Franko and won him a victory and kept him in power for all those years are useless dorks too! Well. Then I agree I am one and proud of it too.
With my experience of living in communist country, if I had a chance of going back in time and participating in the Spanish Civil war, I would not be in the International Brigade.
As for the Finland, I base my opinions on the memoirs of the german generals and western historians.
Wmaker,
I have the highest respect for Finland and it's people, especialy Mannerheim. I just do not believe that they are supermen. It is a wise pollicy of Mannerheim who prepared the defences and army for decades and was as ready as he could for the Soviet invasion, that saved Finland (with a lot of good luck, of course).
I do believe that he betrayed Hitler, but who would blame him for that - why would he care about Hitler's success as long as Stalin guaranteed Finland's indepencence after WWII.
I remember what Hitler did to jews and I know what Mannerheim said to Hitler about jews in his army.
Hitler and Stalin were equally bad, so it was not in Finland's interests to have a "real war" just for Hitler's sake after it's own objectives were accomplished.
Mannerheim saved his country from communists and kept if from WWII (or at least kept WWII from Finland) even though he had to cooperate with Hitler.
Franko saved his country from communists and kept if from WWII even though he had to cooperate with Hitler.
Pinochet saved his country from communists.
I respect them all. RAM would disagree and call me a dork - much easier then reading a few books or respecting someone else's opinion.
I cannot really condemn him, though - at his age I was as ignorant as him and brainwashed to boot, living in the great Soviet Union and ready to give up my life to bring communism to the people of Afganistan.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-08-2001).]
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I read an account about a Russian Pilot(forot who but I'm sure someone will chime in) that shot down a German, He then landed in a field and a couple of Russian soldiers were holding the guy captive. The Pilot then ran up to the German and strangled him to death. Can we get this in AH? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!
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Whew... a hard turn down a totally different road... I hate it when someone else is driving! Back to the subject of HOs and chute shooting.. (and these are PURELY my unsolicited opinions)..
1)HOs were obviously used, and in my mind it sort of makes sense. I would always prefer to use ACM to get an advantageous shot at my opponent, but at the same time, I am not going to risk turning my 6 to him just to try to get a more "honorable" angle. I would rather be shooting at the end of his a/c that doesn't have guns pointing at me, but if I have a better chance of getting a shot without taking the chance of losing my 6 to him, I will. HOs are a gamble, and in AH, as I am sure it was in real life, some times you win, some times you lose.. except that in RL you are likely to only lose once.
2)Chute shooting... I have to simply LOL over this one. There is NO comparison between RL and AH when it comes to this topic. Think about it. In real life, as "dishonorable" as it is (and I do agree it is), it makes perfect sense militarily... one less enemy to try to kill you or your comrades. In AH, it makes NO sense at all. You shoot a guy when he's doing the silk dance, and he gets back up to fight you even QUICKER than if you had left him alone. On the rare occasion that I bail and pull the cord too soon, I HOPE that someone shoots my chute, so I can more quickly re-plane and come back to nail the cheap bastahhhd. I feel chute shooting is lame, and a waste of precious ammo, so I don't do it... but more importantly, why would I want to return my enemy to the fight even quicker? Makes no sense. The only thing I think should be changed is I don't believe chute shooting should award any points to the shooter. In AH there is absolutely no militaristic benefit to doing it (except maybe that the chutist can still communicate with his mates and act as a spotter), so the shooter should have to settle for the cheap satisfaction of shooting a harmless target. That is, of course, unless HT and the crew decide to give chutists a sidearm to take potshots at the other guys with! But I am afraid that will remain with rifle ports on the c47 (which there were in RL) on the list of things never modeled due to the low priority compared to all the other great stuff they are always working on. Just my two well circulated pennies' worth....
Just read your post LLB.. I LIKE IT, I LIKE IT!!! Another on the list of small additions I'd like to see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Skorpyon
~900th Bloody Jaguars~
"Feel the Sting......"
[This message has been edited by Skorpyon (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Chute strafing started 1st September 1939. Luftwaffe can never go on record with "they did it first".
Luftwaffe was the first chute strafing Airforce of the war.
End of the conversation.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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I've seen a video (Target Berlin from Discovery Channel, excellent video with interviews from both sides; Yeager, Anderson, Rall) where Pete Peterson of the 357th FG admits to shooting a LW pilot in his chute.
Peterson had seen the LW pilot shooting bomber crews as they were in their chutes. So Peterson engaged the German and when he bailed, Peterson made a wide turn and killed him.
40+ years later you can still see the anger in the man's face as he tells the story.
It happened. And it happened on all sides. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
[This message has been edited by Dune (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Yo, guys, time for a reality ck. Don't know how many of you have ever been in a real "shoot-em-up" war situation, but I have.
1. HO: Get yer sites on the enemy as quick as possible at whatever angle is available.
2. Chute shooting:
A: The silk rider probably killed some of your friends.
B: If you let him live he'll be back to kill you or your countrymen.
"Honor" exists in war only until the lead starts flying. Then it's kill or be killed.
My .02 worth
GronK
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quote from Crash
"Firing at aircrew in their chutes is officially against U.S. Rules of engagement."
Ahh. Yesss. The good old "Rules of Engagement". As in, when detecting a perimeter probe shout "Halt" two times, fire over their heads, then only return fire if they open fire. RIIIIIIIGHHT! Like honor, sounds good 'til yer arse is on the line.
GronK
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Yeager made a statement in his first book that goes kinda like this. War is emoral and when war is declared it is total. All fighter pilots where ordered to strafe targets on the ground. At 30K it is a contest of skill and strength but on the deck it was all togther differant. when your orders tell you to scan the country side for targets they mean any target i.e. A truck convoy with troops, Traines, a single jeep running down a road even a pottato farmer plowing a feild becaude he is feeding troops.
Yeager told Anderson (quote) Man if where gonna do things like this we better be on the winning side.
enough said
RU
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Yes,,I am a chute shooter ,,, good to know its politically correct now .
[This message has been edited by paintmaw (edited 02-08-2001).]