Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Habu on January 22, 2002, 01:01:23 PM
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I have read here in some threads that the general opinion among many of you is that the Fighter Ace flight model is not realistic.
If you were to visit our forum and read some of the exchanges between the game developers and real pilots (8000+ hours including stick time in a p-51) you would see that the model is being tweaked to be very realistic.
Those of you who think it is "arcade"ish are either in the wrong room or do not know how a real plane performs.
Check out the thread at
newsgroup: vr1.fa3.public
thread : VR1..........Aerodynamic model with flaps
This is a really interesting read as "Aerobatic" one of the flight model programmers responds to a very experienced real pilot on the topic of wing tip washout and the effect of flaps.
I am not trying to start a war between AH or FA. I was a beta player in AH and in IL-2 and in FA-3. All the games feel different. I like the fact that FA is trying to model a plane to feel like a real plane. In the arcade room they do not fly like that but in the real area they are getting there.
If you have decided not to check out FA because it is not "real" enough you are being mislead. FA 3 is nothing like that which has come before. If you do try the latest version out keep in mind that some things like the damage model and gun physics are still being tweaked.
Also keep in mind that FA is a padlock game. As such it does not need the wide field of view that AH does. If you are going to be successful in FA you need to get used to padlock.
Also we do not have a zoom feature on the gunsite.
I play IL-2 and FA and would play AH if it were not for the bishop rook thing. Every feature you put in a game or leave out will cause some people to hate it. We are all biased based on which game we started with. If you decide to try out any game a open mind is required.
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Why all this advertising for FA lately? We are happy here...go away.
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I have found out about every game out there from the message boards I read. It is quite common to discuss WW2OL and AH and every other game on the FA board.
In fact many of the original players of AH came from FA after reading about the original beta for in in the FA newsgroup.
You may not care and your opinion is noted.
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"I like the fact that FA is trying to model a plane to feel like a real plane"
And I want it to FLY like the real thing. Which is why I subscribe to AH.
Westy
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Thanks for the update Habu.
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Fighter Ace has "Da Rocket Avenger"...'nuff said :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Habu
If you were to visit our forum and read some of the exchanges between the game developers and real pilots (8000+ hours including stick time in a p-51) you would see that the model is being tweaked to be very realistic.
Not to sound petty, but this is actually relevent. Do the programmers of FA have any actual stick time?
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/dalep51.gif)
"Recently, Dale fulfilled a lifelong dream when he took a ride in the P-51 "Mad Max" with noted aviation author Robert Shaw, flying alongside in the P-51 "Crazy Horse". Dale won the ride last year as a prize for taking top place in an eight man dogfighting tournament with Fighter Pilots USA. Bob Shaw took this picture during a formation loop."
We've got military pilots, old ww2 vets, private pilots ad nasium, but we have a "creator" who has had this as his passion for well before any of us met him. This goes without even mentioning the other 5 talented people (6 now :) ) HT's code has been the industry leader for 6+ years now with no sign of changing, I'd be willing to bet after the beta in august that wb3 is still 80% HT's code. The last 2 online sims of the year were coded by HT. that is to say that fully 1/2 to 2/3 of the games in this genre were coded by HT.
I don't think anybody will change over, could be wrong, but I think I'm right. ;)
We would like to invite you to try the two week free trial though :) we're always looking for new sticks.
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I got someone downloading it and putting it on cd for me . At 250 mb + a little big to download at 2.7 lol .
I try out all flight sims , found AH by doing the same thing . So far none have come up to AH level .
My hope it the grafics are better than before with that monster download :D
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It's true that there is pleanty of discussion about various games. That's one of the reasons for this forum (as is my understanding anyhow). But the forum is here for AH players to have these discussions. When some joker shows up and, essentially, spams the board with a big advertisement, it goes against my understanding of the board.
As far as the FA FM goes, (And here's an opinion that matters, an AH player, not a cheerleader/recruiter/focus group leader) So long as there are "wrong rooms" to go to, I wouldn't be happy with the sim. I could be totally off base here, but so long as people have the option to go to the dumbed down arcade game, that's what they will do. All the RR jocks from the demise of AW can go to FA and pull 9 gs all day long. Your vet tested and approved rooms will likely have a faithfull few fans, but otherwise gather dust. Thanks but no thanks.
We have our own problems just trying to get people into the CT here, and that's using the same FM as the MA. Anyhow, I hope the clowns over at FA are paying you. Otherwise, put your skirt back down, and leave the pom poms on the floor.
-Sikboy
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A few comments:
One, I'll be happy to take a look at FA3 when it is DONE and I'm looking at what I'll actually be playing IF there's something like a "two week free trial" that another on-line ACM game will allow you to do.
Two, Padlock? I'll admit I'm starting out with a WAY NEGATIVE bias when I hear this. If the view system isn't good enough to look around quickly while keeping a good idea of the bandit's location... like I said, initially a very negative aspect for me.
Three, No zoom but padlock, eh? Another negative. I am one of those that has flown extensively in RL. I have significant time in several different WW2 aircraft, primarily trainers, not fighters. I feel that I have a "real good idea" of what other aircraft look like at various ranges. Zoom is a compensation for a field of view consideration that artificially reduces the size and detail of the other aircraft on the computer screen. So, maybe FA doesn't need zoom.. but the aircraft had better be decently sized and detailed if it doesn't.
I'll take a look....... during a free trial and AFTER the bugs are ironed out.
Oh, yeah. I'd be a "full realism" FM kind of guy. The last time I played FA of any release the FR rooms were deserted. I mean like EMPTY deserted. That would have to change as well. ;)
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umm. Fighter Ace has a flight model?
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A couple of more comments in relpy to what was posted here.
Personally I like arcade rooms as they are where the kids tend to hang out. I started in arcade myself long ago and I think that if someone goes straight into a full real room they probably will not like the game. Arcade is necessary to give you a taste of what the game is all about. When you master arcade then if you are looking for a new challange you migrate to full real.
Regarding the lack of players in Full Real. I agree in the Microsoft days the rooms were pretty empty. However if you did go there you found the 10 or so people hanging out were quite talented usually. If you could hang there you had something to be proud about. The lack of players in Full Real is why most of my squad is playing Aces High these days. I am in AoA you probably know them. Some are quite good in AH I hear.
I can only hope under VR-1 control the full real area grows and becomes more crowded. One of the biggest problems the game had in the old days is the lack of flexibilty under Microsoft control. Now it should be much more dynamic like Aces High as the programers are not constrained anymore.
Regarding the guy with the cheerleading comment. Grow up dude. Get a life.
I am about a far from a cheerleader as you can get. I only made my post here to set the record straight regarding flight model. I do not expect AH to lose any happy players to FA anymore than I would expect FA to lose any happy players to AH. But it is nice to know what is going on regardless what game you play.
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that game allows superman view right? ill never play any game when i know my opponent is flying aroud like superman.
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Regarding the guy with the cheerleading comment. Grow up dude. Get a life.
Lol, I'm a kid, and I have no life because I called you a cheerleader? Ok pally, whatever.
I am about a far from a cheerleader as you can get. I only made my post here to set the record straight regarding flight model
If you weren't a Cheerleader, you wouldn't even be here. You'd be on the FA board where you belong. Thanks for trying to address my actual points, but "Hopefully things will be different" doesn't really hold much water. Hopefully Wishes are horses, and hopefully pigs have wings Then we'll worship the gods of FA, who promise those beautiful things (With apologies to Rudyard Kipling).
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Does FA still have the magic padlock view that finds the nearest enemy for you?
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Well looks like it's time to delete my AH account for FA3.
Bye-Bye!! :)
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You could give the game the benefit of a doubt.
I tried it at full realism and it wasn't all THAT bad. I'm sure people will have loads of fun with it too, but I don't see it as a threat to AH.
The basic approach of the game (FM defaults to arcade and switches it back to arcade after each change) shows that in the end it's directed towards the beginner shoot-em-up flightsim crowd. When they learn a little, hear news about AH, then compare it to FA empty full realism arena, where do you think they'll send thier $ to? I have a pretty good guess ;)
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"it's directed towards the beginner shoot-em-up flightsim crowd."
Exactly. It's when some come here and try to tell us cifferently is when folks here can get agitated and response unkindly.
Westy
(padlock... ! how about auto-maneuvering, computer operated firing control and power ups too? ;) )
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We have padlock in AH too :)
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Originally posted by mrsid2
We have padlock in AH too :)
Well, yes and no. Yes, it padlocks the icon above the A/C, but it breaks lock when that icon/aircraft passes through any part of your canopy frame. In other words, for those used to FA padlock, its useless.
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Originally posted by Zigrat
that game allows superman view right? ill never play any game when i know my opponent is flying aroud like superman.
This view is not an option in full realism.
Originally posted by Montezuma
Does FA still have the magic padlock view that finds the nearest enemy for you?
No. They have fixed it. It will even break padlock if the target goes through the clouds.
FWIW, I don't fly FA. I have a friend at work that has been into it for years. He's quite knowledgeable of the planes and the capabilities. He chooses FA as a matter of taste. We don't fly the same sim, but we can speak the same lanquage. Also... he mentioned that he thought posting FA news on an AH board by an non-AH flyer was in bad taste.
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Hey Sikboy, just because Habu registered or perhaps reregistered recently and has three posts you assume he knows nothing about AH but is just here to spam for FA?
Could it be that he is just a flight sim/game enthusiast who is just passing imformation to other flight sim/game enthusiasts?
I have on occasion mentioned AH on the IL2 forum and others and IL2 on this one and others, I forgot to check with you first though, guess I need a bashing.
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Udie,
That argument that HT has flown an real P51 really sux...
How come we had the pre 1.03 flight model FOR SO LONG TIME until they discovered it was wrong? hey HT has flown an real P51 so he should have noticed something was wrong from the beggining
I will say it for you, gameplay concession. or rather caving in for the massess...
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When FA3 is finished, I’ll probably give it a try just to see what’s changed. I started in FA2.5 so sure, I’m interested in what they did to 3. The preponderance of the fliers to frequent the RR rooms I imagine has not, and will not change. The advanced room I imagine may give some good feedback, but like now it will be hardly used.
When I was there the most I ever saw in the advanced room were 10-15 people. I doubt that will change with FA3. So the “superman” view comment is valid. As well as the 9g turns, not to mention an absolute stall in a vertical to near 0 MPH with no problems in control.
Saying a new flyer should use FA because it is easier doesn’t really hold with me. All it does is teach them bad habits. If a new flyer started out with the most difficult setting in realism I really don’t think it would take them any longer to figure it out then it does RR; especially if everyone else is coping with the same model.
FA will stay in business because of its arcade options and will draw people who want that kind of setup. To me it’s like saying “Hey, all you BMW lovers out there. Did you hear? The Gremlin is back and better than ever!” Hell, everyone would have to check out the new Gremlin, but I’m not sure there will be many buyers.
Zippatuh
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Hey now Sunchaser,
I never said that Habu didn't know anything about AH. I had the impression (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Habu) that he was not an AH player. Yes this was based on his recent appearence on the boards, and his first shot out of the gate being an endorsement of FA. I don't think that my assumtion is at all unfair.
I have on occasion mentioned AH on the IL2 forum and others and IL2 on this one and others, I forgot to check with you first though, guess I need a bashing.
Why would you check with me? I don't play IL2, so I don't post on their forums. See the connection there?
:rolleyes:
-Sikboy
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Maniac, it was acknowledged there was a bug with the 1.03 energy retention.
I notice you fly WB too, did they cave into the masses? Guess not, HT wrote that flight model too- about 8 years ago.
-SW
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Maniac, it was acknowledged there was a bug with the 1.03 energy retention.
Yes thats exactly what im talking about, How come HT didnt notice it before then? afterall he did fly an real p51 once
Are you trying to teach ME about the history of Warbirds and who did what? boy you better vise up...
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Are you trying to get smart with me? Boy, you best not.
-SW
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Thanks for update, Habu.
I have to caution you and everyone else about the validity of experience of the "real stick time" in P-51
I bet that P-51 had the same engine in top condition but no pilot armor, armament and ammunition installed.
Try to guess how much all that stuff weights and how it translates into wingloading, maximum speed, critical AOA and stall characteristics.
I am sure that empty demilitarised P-51 would outturn a Zero.
As for the people who flew real P-51s in combat, the opinions run the whole scale from "most nimble angle fighter" to "unwieldy squeak".
Modelling physics is the only way to reproduce the correct flight model.
Whether the absolutely accurate flight model is essential to enjoying the sim is a different matter altogether.
AH in it's 1.03 version with excessive energy loss was actually more enjoyable for many - more like a "chess in the sky" then "yank the stick" feel.
miko
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"Try to guess how much all that stuff weights and how it translates into wingloading, maximum speed, critical AOA and stall characteristics."
Of course the flight dynamics change but not as much as some of you who say a modern day P-51 bears little (re: flight chracteristics) resemblance to a 1944-45 P-51. I've heard that line of reasoning many times over the past couple of years and just because some there's been removal of combat gear doesn't mean the P-51's still flying handle like docile Cessna's. Especially when you consider some of that weight is gained back having two poeple and also any modern gear being installed for FAA and/or safety regs in it.
Just the same, having "flown" the plane once or even twice does not an expert make. But I'd respect the opinion of those who've been behind the actual stick and in flight than one who's only handled thge stick bolted to the desk and sitting next to a bookcase of manuals, pubs and stories.
As for 1.03 - 1.04 change? It was HTC that found problem(s?) after several learned and well spoken people persistantly posted about what they felt were FM errors. Given the very fast evolution of AH at the time it was no surprise to me that something could be accidently missed. Especially something that wasn't glaringly obvious to find and as Pyro stated the search for any possible FM errors set them back an development period. But it was the AH community that hyped the AH fm. I don't think it's fair to even insinuate that HTC did that nor make it appear that they ended up swallowing those words with 1.04.
Westy
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As someone said in this thread, yes I am a sim enthusiast who tries almost every new one that comes out.
I am going to give AH a try again in the future. I tend to check it out every 6 months or so. Right now I am totally immersed in FA with the Beta test going on.
I also intend to fly IL2 again. I loved that sim but I do not have time to fly more than one at a time. I wish it was a MMOG, to me that is the biggest flaw along with concerns that it can be hacked easier than a MMOG can.
I also am trying to find some time to fly in WWIIOL as they currently have a free welcome back promotion going on. I have yet to really play that game as it is only in the last version that it has become stable and developed enough for me to give it a fair chance.
My reasons for wanting to play each sim vary. Most of my squad are in AH so that is why I want to check it out. I do not like Bishop Rooks etc as I want to see country dedicated planes. I think padlock is better than a wide angle view and hat switches, just a personal opinion after trying both fairly extensively. I know that issue is pointless to argue so just take that comment as my own opinion. I have heard all the pros and cons a million times. AH is also more expensive. Some people think that is great as it keeps kids away. I know some adults who are more immature than any kid I have ever met. For me the cost is not as big a factor as the graphics and frame rate and resistance to hacking of a game.
Regarding posting on another sims boards. I post on WWIIOL and IL-2 and FA as well as this one.
I read them all, some more faithfully than others, and only post if an issue comes up that catches my interest. I find most of the forums are the same. Most people are polite and interested in other peoples opinions, a few are not.
As far as posting on FA in an AH forum all I can say is that I have learned about every other sim I play from forums that were dedicated to a different game. Every game has its fan boys who take offense to any reference that might be construed as disloyalty. They are the ones who will play it to the bitter end regardless of whether it is seriously flawed or not. I like to think that it is the rest of us that keep the game developers busy trying to make the games better and more real.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Udie,
That argument that HT has flown an real P51 really sux...
How come we had the pre 1.03 flight model FOR SO LONG TIME until they discovered it was wrong? hey HT has flown an real P51 so he should have noticed something was wrong from the beggining
I will say it for you, gameplay concession. or rather caving in for the massess...
ahhh come on man he didn't know that!!! I was tryint to use a picture to make a smart arsed statement :D It still applies too :p as the AH flight model is the best online MMP flight model out there (ok ok ok IL2 is really good but still needs some fine tuning like the engines heating up too fast)
And for contradicting me?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad:
:p :p :p
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Hi udie :D
I dont argue that AH might be the most realistic flight sim out there, but "flaming" (lack of better word) other creators for trying to make their flight sims or games rather more realistic with such comments as HT has flown an real p51 :rolleyes:
I surely liked the 1.03 flight model, it provided an great challenge in flying the AC. And no one in the AH community found that it was anything wrong with it...
Its an fact that when the WB guys came here on the boards telling us all about this E-retention problem and taht the AC´s seemed to "mushy" they got flamed BADLY!!! the reply from this community was 'dont let the door hit you on your bellybutton on the way out' djust because they critizised the FM!!!
I djust hate it when an developer gets the status of an holy grale wich you cant critizise. Keep an open mind, i think its great that more games out there strive for being more realistic!
The change from 1.03 to 1.04 was not minor :), in fact if we would go back to the 1.03 FM djust for an day people would be in chock!!
:cool:
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As far as posting on FA in an AH forum all I can say is that I have learned about every other sim I play from forums that were dedicated to a different game. Every game has its fan boys who take offense to any reference that might be construed as disloyalty. They are the ones who will play it to the bitter end regardless of whether it is seriously flawed or not. I like to think that it is the rest of us that keep the game developers busy trying to make the games better and more real.
Im not sure about anyone else, but this has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about. I give up. No mas
-Sikboy
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Just re: the earlier comment about what stick time FA programmers have, the lead developer is a guy called Alex Starykh.
He is a national aerobatics champion in the SU several times over during the 80s. He has flown a wide range of planes, but mainly Yaks 52 and 55. He also has a PhD in aerodynamics. He is a flight instructor, historian, university professor and also an astoundingly talented computer programmer.
Additionally, he is a former national trampoline master champion but the image of him in a leotard scares me so I try not think about that.
He works so hard on FA, his children call him "Who?".
We also have a large number of real-life pilots in the game in everything from aerobatic playthings to cessnas to commercial 747s.
(Someone did ask, so I answered...I'll just wander off to my own interlopers thread now...)
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But HT has flown an real P51 Golly-geeIT!!!!!
:D
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FA has/had its place in my flight sim fun
Started in WB, really stunk in there and the few months I tried it, I was dishing out over $100 a month,
then I found FA 1.0. $24.95 unlimited, could hit something other than the ground, joined a squad or two, stayed in FR room majority of time.. had great fun, not to mention the free hats and t shirts with the 6 month subs. Then when they lowered it to 9.95 it was all the better, thought I'd died and gone to heaven when connection was bumped up to beta cable modem tester for TW RR..
when they switch to Fa 2.0, didn't like it as much. After seeing it in a mag (PC Gamer I think), stumbled across AH, after a huge learning curve, the rest is history..
FA has its place, not to mention it probably saved my marriage if not my life :)
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What FA squads were you in?
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Originally posted by Habu
What FA squads were you in?
the first one was called the Lufts, if I remember right
then The Musketeer Escadrille
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i just DL'd FA3(took an hour and a half with a cable modem)
lets just put it this way....i dont thing HTC will be losing ANY customers to this one. at least not anybody with any significance. i took a hellcat up and was doing loops right off the runway pulling 5+ G's the whole time. didnt even come close to stalling. except when pulling negative G's. it stalled when i pulled -1.5G's.
wierd...
i deffinitely wont be leaving AH for this one.
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I suggest you wait till the game goes gold and then try the real room.
You could set the physics yourself if you understood how but to just jump in a plane and take off is not going to get you the FM that you are expecting.
I flew online full real today and the planes stall and snap roll and no you would not be able to loop just after takeoff like that.
Not knocking your opinion I am just trying to enlighten you.
Actually since most of the neat stuff is not available offline I suggest if you want to check it out apply for the next beta (they are going to let a whole load more people in next upgrade) or wait for the gold as I said.
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HiTech won first place in an eight man flying competition?How come he can't fly worth a toejame in the MA?:D :D :D
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I started flying in FA just as 1.5 was kicking in. Flew there, started a squad there and liked both the arcade and real rooms. Had fun in both.
2.0 came along, crowd changed, ppl like who Westy mentioned ruined any fun I did have. Along with the fact that VR wasn't interested in making changes that would update it from an arcade game to an actual sim/game.
Hearing the loud cries that the game remain pretty much the same as before with prettier graphics turned me off to 3.0. From what I've seen in this monster download doesn't tell me any different. Just a little window dressing.
AH is much better in many area's as far as i'm concerned and more akin to what I want.
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Habu, no disrespect intended, but it is more than a little bemusing that we've had some FA guys come over here and explain in great detail why this product is superior or at least very good and when discrepancies are foud, the standard answer is "you gotta wait for it to go Gold".
My suggestion to you would be: come here when it's gone gold. I downloaded the demo - and I pay per downloaded megabyte. I learned the hard way what you're saying - that the demo basically cannot give me any of the information I was looking for.
In software terms, I am not entirely sure I'd call it a real Beta version. It seems like an Alpha gone public, which is a very inaccurate use of the term 'Alpha'.
Am sure lots of FA'ers will be incredibly satisified with this product. Am equally sure that you're all excited about the development iterations that's happening.
But I feel conned when I hear "this is the toejam, try it" and when errors are pointed out the answer is "well, you gotta wait for the gold version".
Am beginning to grow a wee bit tired of the hyping of a product, on false grounds (i.e try it - wait til gone gold), and of a product that isn't even a real product yet - it's an intermediary result.
If I run over my quota by 270 mb this month, that download will put me back $8. That's enough for a pizza and some beer. Annoying.
I'd very much appreciate if the FA'ers kept their posts to updates, rather than sales speeches. And you're very welcome back when there's a product we can compare with our current one. Until then, I've heard enough for now.
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you took the words outa my mouth mr.clause
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I am not saying that the game is not great right now what I am saying is better wait until you get into the beta before passing judgement. You can set up a room with full advanced physics if you know how to in the offline mode I believe. Better to fly in the online mode and set up a room there and get people to come in and fly against you. To do that you need to get into the beta. Go to VR1.com and register to get into the beta. When they open it up more you will get a chance to play for free.
If you are on dial up or pay for your bandwidth you can get a free disk by going to http://news://gamenews.vr1.com/ and looking for the post by Shad on getting a disk mailed to you for free.
I have dsl and can download the game in less than an hour. I also have a burner and would be happy to send a couple of disks out for free if you email me your address if the size of the download is really that big of a concern. Send your request to TD_ChesterField@Yahoo.com.
All I ask in return is a couple of hours private lessons in AH when the beta is over and I get some time to come and play this game for a while.
The main reason I like FA more than AH and WWIIOL is the community. I know almost everyone in the game and know how they fly and who is good and who is not.
I expect that is the main reason people here like AH. It is nice to try the different games but as my original post stated if the Flight Model is your main reason for not trying FA then you should give it another look. Just wait till you can get into the online game.
If you can loop just after takeoff and do not have to keep you hand on the stick at all times you are not experiencing full real.
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"I expect that is the main reason people here like AH."
Most everyone "here" came from somewhere else. But existing attachments to a community of players is a large reason many AW, FA and WB's players do not venture beyond what they've become confortable with. Which is silly imo.
My reasons for not being interested in FAIII is from HAVING tried the demo, not liking the view system, not liking the FM as well as the graphics, hating the huge download (AH is a tenth and offers so much more) and knowing that when the doors are thrown open to the public that no matter what occured in beta or what the few of you think FAIII arenas will be filled with it will be folks wanting the arcade play that will dominate it.
Westy
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Damnit Westy, stop arguing and take your "enlightenment" like a man.
-Sikboy :cool:
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:) Sikboy.
Not arguing. I'm discussing
does that enlightenment come in a 6-pack??
;)
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Originally posted by pimpjoe
i just DL'd FA3(took an hour and a half with a cable modem)
lets just put it this way....i dont thing HTC will be losing ANY customers to this one. at least not anybody with any significance. i took a hellcat up and was doing loops right off the runway pulling 5+ G's the whole time. didnt even come close to stalling. except when pulling negative G's. it stalled when i pulled -1.5G's.
wierd...
i deffinitely wont be leaving AH for this one.
The default offline settings for FA are relaxed realism. If you want the full real FM, you have to set it up.