Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Shane on January 22, 2002, 03:54:12 PM
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it's becoming way more prevalent. i think HT needs to crank up the do not move your controls so rapidly routine - and before people whine about sensitive sticks/spiking, let me remind them there's a nice feature called scaling and deadband/dampers that if tweaked enough will eliminate the message.
stick stirring, whether deliberate or out of ignorance/laziness is becoming too prevalent.
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yup
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Agreeed 110%. Nowadays you get all these hot shots floping around, causing you to overshoot, then they get the kill. Unfortunalty, most of the people who fish flop are the people who are rank 500 and under, so they know what they are doing is wrong, but contuine to do it.
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Having to set deadbands and dampening to high ruins fine control for shooting.
DES
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Yup, I totally agree.
In fact I started a thread on this last week.
DES, if you have to set your deadband and dampening so high that it ruins your fine control there is something wrong with your joystick.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Yup, I totally agree.
In fact I started a thread on this last week.
DES, if you have to set your deadband and dampening so high that it ruins your fine control there is something wrong with your joystick.
...and I started one the week before. Yep, getting very prevalent.
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Sometimes what others see as "Stick Stirring" or as Shane describes it, "Fish Flopping", sometimes is as simple of the other pilot just making a mistake and going into a spin.
I've been having troubles with the flaps on my P-38 auto-retracting and causing me to spin out. I'm sure to the guy on my six, it looks like I intentionally "fish flopped" but that just isn't the case on my part. I watched some films and realized why I was spinning out when flaps would auto-retract and now make a special note when using my flaps not to pull excessive G's. BadBoy described it as being "ham fisted" with the controls and he's right, it's one of the unfortunate by-products of flying RR AW for 8 years and not an intentional attempt at "stick stirring". Every since I've been careful about pulling excessive G's with flaps deployed, I haven't gone into a spin when my flaps have auto-retracted.
I have seen others do it intentionally and those that do are no better than the old "FW Spin Dweebs" and may their sheep get V.D.
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"DES, if you have to set your deadband and dampening so high that it ruins your fine control there is something wrong with your joystick."
My stick is fine, I'm just trying to point out that it's not as simple as cranking up the "don't move your stick so fast" routine. I'm sure that HTC is trying to balance gameplay with peoples hardware. Many people can't afford to go out and buy a new stick because the software was altered on a wim. The lousy connects and warping that's going on lately are a much larger problem IMHO and probably the cause of a lot of this supposed "stick stirring".
DES
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What stick stirring are you all refering too? I have in my entire time playing since the beta only seen a few isolated cases of floppy fish. Almost all were fw190's and caused by the huge roll rate -vs- the server refresh rate. I think that what many people are calling stick stiring is them getting out flown and/or having slow connects themselves. I find the microwarps in heavy dogfights much more bothersome.
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Originally posted by 2Late4U
What stick stirring are you all refering too? I have in my entire time playing since the beta only seen a few isolated cases of floppy fish. Almost all were fw190's and caused by the huge roll rate -vs- the server refresh rate. I think that what many people are calling stick stiring is them getting out flown and/or having slow connects themselves. I find the microwarps in heavy dogfights much more bothersome.
Been here since beta as well. Definite increase in stick stirring. It's an attempt to cause an overshoot. Cutting throttle and flopping around like a landed carp. Lots of F6F's doing it lastnight at 41.
Not getting outflown my friend, plus I'm on cable with minimal latency. Just throttle back with nose up attitude is how I've been beating it but it's a dweeby move nonetheless.
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Originally posted by Apache
Been here since beta as well. Definite increase in stick stirring. It's an attempt to cause an overshoot. Cutting throttle and flopping around like a landed carp. Lots of F6F's doing it lastnight at 41.
Not getting outflown my friend, plus I'm on cable with minimal latency. Just throttle back with nose up attitude is how I've been beating it but it's a dweeby move nonetheless.
Yeah, I saw that too. Mostly confined to one F6F, who was there the day before too, doing exactly the same nonsense. The difference last night was that this turkey couldn't hide in the acks like he did the night before.
Now that I think of it, where the hell did everyone go to last night? I found myself alone flying low over 41, one ack remaining and about a dozen Knights trying to get behind me. I was flying the A6M and things got a wee bit hectic, to say the least. I managed to chase all of them out of that punchbowl that 41 is located in, and generally keep them out. But, fuel was running low and I had lost the use of my flaps, left landing gear (main mount) and one elevator from hits taken from snap shooters during the 15 minutes I was alone. I think I had brought down one Knight and sent a couple of them wobbling off trailing smoke.
Finally, almost out of fuel (I had taken off with only 50%), a big Lanc decides to buzz the field! So, what the hell, I went after him, killing the Lanc with the last of my ammo, but was shot up bad enough to force me to bail out.
I sure could have used some help. I suppose someone offered to buy the beer and I never got the word...... BTW, I was having a blast, now that I had all of the Knights to myself. ;)
My regards.
Widewing
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Determining whether it is stick stirring or bad connections is very easy.
With stick stirring you see the enemy plane nose pointing everywhere, but there are no real displacements in the enemy's course.
With bad cnx, you'll see real displacements, warps.
And I agree, lately there are a lot of people using this dweeb "tactic" as a desperate and last hope of survival.
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Im getting really pissed off with all this 190 is the culprit toejam.
Yes the 190s roll fast but so do many other planes.
190 roll rate is reduced from RL in AH FFS!
Ive seen spits la7s p51s typhoons and almost every other aircraft pull warp moves.......
LIKE ITS BEEN SAID ABOUT SKILL ALSO APPLIES TO CHEATS.......
ITS NOT THE PLANE ITS THE PILOT....
NOW STOP RAGGING ON THE Fw190. sheesh its a new diddlying witch hunt every week.getting sick of this pansy assed BB lately.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Im getting really pissed off with all this 190 is the culprit toejam.
Yes the 190s roll fast but so do many other planes.
190 roll rate is reduced from RL in AH FFS!
Ive seen spits la7s p51s typhoons and almost every other aircraft pull warp moves.......
LIKE ITS BEEN SAID ABOUT SKILL ALSO APPLIES TO CHEATS.......
ITS NOT THE PLANE ITS THE PILOT....
NOW STOP RAGGING ON THE Fw190. sheesh its a new diddlying witch hunt every week.getting sick of this pansy assed BB lately.
hazed, did you even read the freakin posts?! F6F's lastnight dude. Man!
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Ive gotten that "dont move controls so rapidly" message probably 3 times since i started playing AH.. All times it was intentional, like checking out stick settings, or when i tried it with a mouse. Anyone who is doing it is deffinately intentional.
Last night some dweeb in la7, low below me was the king of stiring.. although he was not in the top 500 pilots. I dove down tried like hell to get a aiming solution, he is jumping all over infront of me, nearly impossible to get a solution. Im eager so i stick to him trying to get a shot, give up, pull up and recover. a few second later i get a message in channel one "You got out flown f4u".. this was histarical.
He then gave me another laugh saying "we are about even on kills on each other".. i was a dork and checked it out, again he was wrong, which i was quick to point out, and got no response.. :cool:
***Edit*** forgot to mention that i think that this is a horrid offense and should be "punishable" in some way as above mentioned.
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only one person mentioned fw's. i'm seeign it across a variety of plane types.
it's a simple matter of desperation in conjunction with cluelessness on stick scaling and damping. which is why i say the "do not move" routine needs ot be ratched up a notch or 2.
case in point: i tried a new stick setting last nite, and while off line tried an actual stick stir and got the message, then, while leaving the scaling in place (almost 100% all the way across as opposed to my former graduated scaling) i futzed with dampers to the point where trying the same manuver did not result in the message. however, i'm unsure whether it'd still be perceived as fish flopping on line, since i'm below the current "thresh-hold."
fwiw i really rack around in my p51 stangfire and upon repeated queries have never been said to appear fish-floppy. i hope that holds with my new scaling, and frankly, i'm quite sure it will as i have my dampers up more to avoid the rubberband nose bounce effect for better gunnery than just enough to avoid the do not message.
there is a big difference between warps, snaprolls, spins, slight flopping in wind layers, and fish-flopping manuvering in desperation.
i sure as hell have never seen anyone fishflop on *my* 6.
anyway, crank up the routine!! or tweak the coding.
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heres a situation Verm may recall..........
I was climbing out afk at about 16k I return to my desk see a 109 with 3k alt we dance around a bit hes smart keeping above using his superior climb. We danced for a good 3-5min. I was able to avoid his passses but was locked with no real chance to reverse.
A co-alt p51 shows up and they are working together to keep me on the defensive. I spot a co-alt la7 ib 4k out cutting my ability to run for my squaddies. Again I hold them off 4 a couple of minutes.
I spot a lo p51 and made a dive toward him which would allow me to get some speed and circle back toward a squaddie that was ib.
As am Iam doing this I spot a higher f4u to to hi 12 of the 51 whose 6 I am coming in on. The lo 51 breaks left and Im no dumb bellybutton I dont follow and continue a lo g right turn away from the f4u whos is circling around.
He gets to d700 or so Im not worried I am much faster and as I pull away i get the customary d700 and beyond spray and pray all the way out to d900 my fe. Again np with my speed and lo g turn he cant track me to get any good line on me.
At this point the 109 and 51 were coming faster hi my 6. The 109 looks like compression caught him because he about augered but pulled up in a direction away from me.
The 51 though is hauling arse. He gets to d550 my fe so and I roll left abit and to do a quick break turn and as I do my left aileron gets nailed but the 51 is too fast he cant follow.
I look over my right shoulder as I begin a barrel roll back to the right using very little rudder to keep speed. the 51 is right where i want him. Hes fast but as i roll to his 6 I will have a snap shot at about d350 and extending.
At this point the f4u is all over me so instead of trying to get to the 51 I add more right ailern and more rudder taking myself out of plane with the f4u.
I put my nose str8 down at the water. Now if this guys a n00b he will auger and I may have a chance to escape.
I am watching over my shoulder as the f4 manages to follow me down. He had to bleed some e and i saw him "wobble" abit as if he was fighting a stall or spin.
He gets "clean" and as I add a bit of right aileron to keep out of plane I pull up using elevator trim. I see the f4u actually disappear into the terrain. I had thought he augered but i then see him pop back up at d200 or so. I've seen this before prob a difference in my fe and his. He seeing he just made it and my seeing him a bit lower.
Now its all over I cant escape the f4 has me and kills me quick.
I type "lol you flew right through the water"
a few minutes later I get on private channel
"Nice stick stirring back there :-)"
Now I've seen this guy post on the board about stick stirring so I am not sure if hes telling me I am a cheater or what so I ask him not to private message me but to use channel 1.
I mention his d900 spray and pray but it just feeds him. So I ask him to not type to me which is to no avail.
Finally I squelch umm.
The whole thing wa less then 2 min and I my whole flight on my end was smooth with no more then 4 "manuvres".
Its quite possible whatever he was seeing on his fe was different and if this is the case a lot of the current "stick stir" hysteria is pure bs.
I know stick stirrin happens but not everything you "see" is stick stirrin.
Now on my fe I saw that guy go through the water. Does he use a terrain cheat? or is it lag? Or maybe my "stick stirrin" got me dizzy and I disdn't really see it :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Shane
it's becoming way more prevalent. i think HT needs to crank up the do not move your controls so rapidly routine - and before people whine about sensitive sticks/spiking, let me remind them there's a nice feature called scaling and deadband/dampers that if tweaked enough will eliminate the message.
stick stirring, whether deliberate or out of ignorance/laziness is becoming too prevalent.
bull toejam...not everyone that gets that message is stirring. And before you give me some roadkill about dead bands and dampening let me point out that that dosnt always work.
the damn thing needs to be turned off completly. If you can hit whats in front of you break off and find somthing you can hit.
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I understand what you're saying wotan, however, I've been doing this "hobby" a long time. I know an intentional "stick stir" when I see it. It is a move of desperation by someone who doesn't know what to do in a given situation or has gotten used to "gaming the game". I think alot of us fly these vistual aircraft in a way we "think" they were intended. Some don't.
I think it's time to fire up another web site. I've got plenty of films from the past several weeks, (especially from lastnight) but have no media to share them. A searchable, public, films database is in order I think. Looks like I got work to do.
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you're aware that you need to click "ok" *and* "apply" for new stick settings to take effect.
it's either a) deliberate b) cluelessness or c) refresh coding, i.e. fw rollrates.
show me a floppy-fish "stick" that *can't* be suffciently calibrated and tweaked to avoid the floppiness, and if you peel off a flopper, he'll just rev on you and get back on you and shoot you down w/o flopping on your 6, or tie you up until someone arrives to save his ass.
don't confuse flopping with the rubberband nose bounce, i still experience some of that, but have never been claimed to appear fish-floppy.
i've played enough to be able to distingush the various degrees of floppiness from a variety of causes, thank you, and for the most part a lot could simply be reduced by proper *scaling* or dampers or a combo of the two.
for the most part, i'd say it's just general cluelessness in conjunction with laziness/wtfgas-ness.
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I agree with you apache and I've been in ah over 2 years and see it too.
But what happens when every other guy rushes to the bbs everyday with "stick stirring" its gonna feed a lot guys who simply cant shoot or who will not know the difference between intentional stick stirrin and lag.
Hype feeds a lot of stuff that happens here.
I am not sure what anyone else sees but when I was told i was stick stirrin I never made any "hard" manuvre except to use trim to pull out of a lo alt dive.
I fly 190s when ever I out manuvre some one I will get bombarded with "you stick stirrer"
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Good points wotan.
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It's just a problem with network connections most times. I almost never see this. I think folks are seeing it more lately because of the big load on the AH servers and some of the connection problems we have been seeing because of it. We all know that HTC is working hard to improve the connections, so I expect this will improve things.
I used to get accused of "stick stirring" all the time by a couple of folks in particular. My "stick stirring" was simply guns defense, short fast rolls with short hard pulls to jink and try and keep from getting shot. It's not stick stirring to try to avoid getting shot, but if their are network problems somewhere in the you-host-him circuit, it may appear that way. This is basic guns defense, not stick stirring in any way, so becareful who you accuse.
In addition... stick stirring doesn't work very well. A real stick stirrer will simply flop around from side to side, but won't really change his direction of motion. By simply staying behind him you can simply gun him to death with little trouble. Now if he's warping with some displacement, and changing flight path in big jumps, it's simply warps. Yep, warping makes it hard to shoot somebody, but that doesn't mean the guy is "stick stirring".
If you are seeing everybody "stick stirring" with regularity, I'd bet you are seeing warps. If you see lots of warps, that would point to a connection problem in your route to HTC. Everybody is subject to Internet problems from time to time, and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you are connected with a 28.8 modem or a T1 line, problems still occur. If you are seeing lots of warping like that, don't accuse others... dig out ping plotter (http://www.pingplotter.com) and do some diagnoses to figure out what the problem is.
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You cant really blame them for calling you a stick stir'r wotan, im not accusing of such things. but as previously noted the 190 rolls fast than the netcode can keep up with it apears. Ive been acused of it several times in a p47, ecspecialy at high speeds when it really has the rolling edge over most AC.
also been acused of "floppy fish" buy a good pilot, which i still have no idea what the hell is.. All i done was panic and pull up to and to the right hard and went into a very fast stall spin, thats all i can think of.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
It's just a problem with network connections most times. I almost never see this. I think folks are seeing it more lately because of the big load on the AH servers and some of the connection problems we have been seeing because of it. We all know that HTC is working hard to improve the connections, so I expect this will improve things.
I used to get accused of "stick stirring" all the time by a couple of folks in particular. My "stick stirring" was simply guns defense, short fast rolls with short hard pulls to jink and try and keep from getting shot. It's not stick stirring to try to avoid getting shot, but if their are network problems somewhere in the you-host-him circuit, it may appear that way. This is basic guns defense, not stick stirring in any way, so becareful who you accuse.
In addition... stick stirring doesn't work very well. A real stick stirrer will simply flop around from side to side, but won't really change his direction of motion. By simply staying behind him you can simply gun him to death with little trouble. Now if he's warping with some displacement, and changing flight path in big jumps, it's simply warps. Yep, warping makes it hard to shoot somebody, but that doesn't mean the guy is "stick stirring".
If you are seeing everybody "stick stirring" with regularity, I'd bet you are seeing warps. If you see lots of warps, that would point to a connection problem in your route to HTC. Everybody is subject to Internet problems from time to time, and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you are connected with a 28.8 modem or a T1 line, problems still occur. If you are seeing lots of warping like that, don't accuse others... dig out ping plotter (http://www.pingplotter.com) and do some diagnoses to figure out what the problem is.
I'm a network engineer by profession now. I know all the tricks. This is "stick stirring". Not wanting to be argumentative, but want to make it clear that it (stick stirring, not warping. No attitude change) is happening.
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Dunno if its maybe a thing with certain kinds of sticks or what but I don't recall ever getting the stick stir message. Really. I'm running a CH F-16 Fighterstick with a Pro Throttle and TM pedals. All are analog.
Drano
Originally posted by Shane
it's becoming way more prevalent. i think HT needs to crank up the do not move your controls so rapidly routine - and before people whine about sensitive sticks/spiking, let me remind them there's a nice feature called scaling and deadband/dampers that if tweaked enough will eliminate the message.
stick stirring, whether deliberate or out of ignorance/laziness is becoming too prevalent.
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Originally posted by Apache
I'm a network engineer by profession now. I know all the tricks. This is "stick stirring". Not wanting to be argumentative, but want to make it clear that it (stick stirring, not warping. No attitude change) is happening.
I know that YOU understand Apache, but I wasn't replying to you directly. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the time when folks start throwing around these terms, they confuse regular old warps with "stick stirring". I'm just pointing out what other things can appear like "stick stirring" but are not, for the benefit of folks reading this thread that may not understand the difference. Certainly most of the calls of "stick stirring" I've heard over the years online were really warps, and not stick stirring at all.
And to a certain extent, it will always happen. We simply have planes that can roll very fast or spin and roll faster than the net code can keep up with. I rarely see what I would call a real "stick stir" happen... I've almost never seen it. Now granted I don't get nearly as much time to fly as many of you folks do, but I've been around a little while. ;) I accept that some of you are seeing real stick-stirring though. My point is that real stick-stirring is mostly useless as a guns defense since your plane of motion doesn't change much if at all, so I don't really see the problem if a few folks do it until they learn better. :) The danger here is that you can both reduce the effectiveness of planes that rely on fast roll and make it more difficult for those with cheap controllers to play the game. HTC has to be very careful not to harm newbies with cheap joysticks in an effort to stop a behaviour that isn't really a big problem anyway.
What should you do (and I mean everybody here, not speaking to you directly Apache) if you see somebody stick-stirring? Smile and kill them. After a while they'll learn that it's not an effective guns defense. If what you see IS an effective guns defense, then it's not really stick stirring at all, it's a warp, and that's an entirely different issue.
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I only get the 'don't move controls so fast' message when I'm correcting my aim attacking. In my 3 weeks in AH I've never gotten it during evasives. My stick doesn't spike and is properly calibrated. I don't consider adding damping a solution. Mushy controls are less 'real' then responsive controls. There's a lot to like in AH but not being able to aggressively maneuver for a shot is ludicrous.
Gamers who count their kills before they get them will always whine about something whether it's stick stirring, warping, ramming, aircraft choices, or simply using good tactics. 470 people online last night and every warp is a cheat? Air to air gunnery is supposed to be difficult. God forbid we ever get wake turbulence. The anti-stick stirring code is a compromise that reduces flight realism to offset the effects of net lag. Net lag can't be eliminated but flight realism can certainly be reduced further, I just don't think it's a good idea. I think the code should be turned down not up.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Edit: Your right, its not worth it
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Originally posted by Lephturn
I know that YOU understand Apache, but I wasn't replying to you directly. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the time when folks start throwing around these terms, they confuse regular old warps with "stick stirring". I'm just pointing out what other things can appear like "stick stirring" but are not, for the benefit of folks reading this thread that may not understand the difference. Certainly most of the calls of "stick stirring" I've heard over the years online were really warps, and not stick stirring at all.
And to a certain extent, it will always happen. We simply have planes that can roll very fast or spin and roll faster than the net code can keep up with. I rarely see what I would call a real "stick stir" happen... I've almost never seen it. Now granted I don't get nearly as much time to fly as many of you folks do, but I've been around a little while. ;) I accept that some of you are seeing real stick-stirring though. My point is that real stick-stirring is mostly useless as a guns defense since your plane of motion doesn't change much if at all, so I don't really see the problem if a few folks do it until they learn better. :) The danger here is that you can both reduce the effectiveness of planes that rely on fast roll and make it more difficult for those with cheap controllers to play the game. HTC has to be very careful not to harm newbies with cheap joysticks in an effort to stop a behaviour that isn't really a big problem anyway.
What should you do (and I mean everybody here, not speaking to you directly Apache) if you see somebody stick-stirring? Smile and kill them. After a while they'll learn that it's not an effective guns defense. If what you see IS an effective guns defense, then it's not really stick stirring at all, it's a warp, and that's an entirely different issue.
Understood Leph. :) Thanks
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nm not worth it
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Originally posted by hazed-
Im getting really pissed off with all this 190 is the culprit toejam.
Yes the 190s roll fast but so do many other planes.
190 roll rate is reduced from RL in AH FFS!
Ive seen spits la7s p51s typhoons and almost every other aircraft pull warp moves.......
LIKE ITS BEEN SAID ABOUT SKILL ALSO APPLIES TO CHEATS.......
ITS NOT THE PLANE ITS THE PILOT....
NOW STOP RAGGING ON THE Fw190. sheesh its a new diddlying witch hunt every week.getting sick of this pansy assed BB lately.
Someone's got the serious case of the paranoids. Only one post that I recall mentioned 190's...
ack-ack
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This seems to me that old AH aces are pissed of because some newbies are learning things and getting better.:D
Someone accused me for stick stirring once in MA and I was sure I dont use that technique. Later I noticed that my stick has weird problem and it was getting worse all the time. It became too sensitive and finally it was impossible to fly with it. After reboot it came back normal.
Yesterday I shot down stick stirring 109 but I think that was even easier to kill because target stayed in direct flight path. But it looked funny..
;)
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I agree also. When I read the thread on this topic last week I hadn't seen it, or knew enough about it to recognize it. But, over the past several days I see it for what it is. It usually occurs when an nme is in dire straits with an nme close on him. Instead of using typical evasion tactics they will wobble, flop and do crazy unusual turns, which I take as a stall. They may drop suddenly out of control for a few thousand feet then recover below and behind.
I don't know if this is simply because they are new and don't know how to use evasive tactics or, are doing it purposely. I can say now though that it does happen a lot more now.
I don't agree with JoeCrips estimation that it usually happens according to ...ahem...rank in the arena (under 500 ranking), thats ridiculous and not a little bit snobbish :) Human nature being what it is, would include those types who would do anything to win at all costs, regardless of ....ahem...rank ;)
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just cuz.
:mad: