Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 2Late4U on January 23, 2002, 12:14:31 PM
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OK, with the talking about stick stiring of late, many of the conversations have turned to accusations of players doing it to cause an overshoot. My big concern is the idea that what many seem to be calling a dweeb move seems to bear a striking resemblance to a legitimate combat maneuver.
If Im flying along at 10k 300knots and I see an enemy gaining on me from behind, and possibly above. Just when did it become a dweeb maneuver to cut the throttle, nose up slightly and preform several barrel rolls? This is exactly the type of move many seem to be whinning about, and it is a legitimate tactical move. When there is someone behind me at a higher speed, he has the E advantage, so Im sure as heck not going to let them use that advantage, Im going to use his energy state against him. If they are good, they'll go around and and conserve their E while I waste all mine doing the barrel rolls.
The term stick stirring refers to moving the stick in sevearl different directions rappidly. It does NOT refer to doing barrel rolls which is just what it looks like people are saying.
flop around in an attempt to get me to overshoot
Ummm...yea....thats the idea, make the guy with the advantage overshoot.
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What you just described is called a displacement roll...it is a valid tactic. As a matter of fact, I wish I was better at than I am:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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what rude said:)
i havent even looked at that thread. people whining about how somebody defends them self has some serious issues with their ACM's that they need to work out. i say if it works an over shoot...use it:)
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cc 2late4u. However if YOUR plane rolls to the left and dispaces to the right and then your nose yaws up and down at the same time, then your plane all the sudden instantly dives or climbs without any visible way of it being able to do that (aka, plane's nose is pointing up but the plane dives), THAT is stick stirring.
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i'm fairly good about forcing overshoots with barrel rolls, and i've yet to be labeld "fish-floppy" when performing them.
probably because i've taken the time to futz with my scaling and dampers and don't jerk the stick all over when performing this manuver. i ahte seeing it, so i'd be hypocritical if i did the same.
it can be done WITHOUT having to appear fish-floppy.
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Agreed Tac.
I'm well aware of what a displacement roll or a barrel roll is.
My ACM is just fine. I'm not getting killed by this "manuver".
I'm not some newbie who just wandered into to this thing with mouse in hand.
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Just curious, is AH using knots or mph?, i know AH do not use km/h.
Potkaiskaa niitä perseeseen!!
pjk
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Hmm, I'd have to disagree with ya on that one, as a matter of fact this very manuever has been mentioned in several books written by wwii aces as to their response to suddenly seeing tracers fly by their cockpits...stick left, mash right rudder....totally uncoordinated. Japanese seemed to think we couldnt fly because we would get the plane lookin like it was gonna swap ends when they suprised the americans :)
As for stick stirring, it was my understanding that if you stick stirred you would lose flight control for several seconds and get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message. Happens to me on the runway every so often when I start to roll and realize I haven't moved my usb controls yet leaving them uncalibrated and generally sending me off the runway, so ofcourse I move'em real fast to get'em calibrated and consequently lose all control and generally slam into an ammo dump or some such obstruction, so seems to me that the anti-stick stirring code works fine.
CRASH
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Crash: I Think you are talking about what i learned to be called a "Snap roll" which, while i could do one in WB, i've never been able to get it to work in AH.
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Originally posted by Rude
What you just described is called a displacement roll...it is a valid tactic. As a matter of fact, I wish I was better at than I am:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
heheh one of these days when yer divin on my pony I'll be happy to demonstrate a displacement roll, followed by my .50s shredding yer pony.
:D
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About a week ago I watched a show on History Chanel about the P51. I was thrilled when one of the Aces (Don Blakeslee I think) described this exact maneuver and called it a "snap roll". I immediately went into AH and in offline mode I filmed myself flying straight and level and at a predetermined point I jammed the stick full forward to the left while at the same time jamming in full right rudder. The result was extremely interesting specially when looked at from trailing view with tracks. Anyone up close and personal on your six would surely be disoriented by the sudden move. Try it.
Beeg
Originally posted by CRASH
Hmm, I'd have to disagree with ya on that one, as a matter of fact this very manuever has been mentioned in several books written by wwii aces as to their response to suddenly seeing tracers fly by their cockpits...stick left, mash right rudder....totally uncoordinated. Japanese seemed to think we couldnt fly because we would get the plane lookin like it was gonna swap ends when they suprised the americans :)
As for stick stirring, it was my understanding that if you stick stirred you would lose flight control for several seconds and get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message. Happens to me on the runway every so often when I start to roll and realize I haven't moved my usb controls yet leaving them uncalibrated and generally sending me off the runway, so ofcourse I move'em real fast to get'em calibrated and consequently lose all control and generally slam into an ammo dump or some such obstruction, so seems to me that the anti-stick stirring code works fine.
CRASH
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Hamish a snap roll, also called a flick roll, is usually initiated by pitching up sharply. One wing stalls first and the lift from the other wing rolls the aircraft. Rudder input can alter the direction or speed of the snap roll. Aileron input is not required but opposite aileron can be used to stop the roll at a specific point.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Unfortunately, we must ad the LAG factor into this manuever which means it really goes both ways. Performing the manuever is completely valid. Performing the manuever while playing to the net lag makes it dweebish as hell.
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Okay:
Snap roll is basically inducing a spin in level flight. It works better in WB than AH (I mean, in DOA I could snap roll with precision to fake a split-ess), but some planes do it better than others. The "stop moving your stick so rapidly" doesn't really work against stick stirring. It usually catches me when I'm in a buff and switching positions. But here's how stick-stirring works:
Contrary to popular opinion, it's all about small control movements. Your position and velocity is updated every half second, so if you do an ailer roll and rudder kick (yes, Andy, a kick) in one direction, then reverse within a half second, the FE will send a roll and yaw speed in one direction, and the pursuer will see you move in that first direction. Then you'll have reversed, and the opponent's FE will have to update a movement 2-4 times what you actually did. That's stick stirring.
Often it occurs by pilots who haven't studied much BFM, but who find tha this works. They have little idea what it looks like on the other side.
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Originally posted by Dinger
Contrary to popular opinion, it's all about small control movements. Your position and velocity is updated every half second, so if you do an ailer roll and rudder kick (yes, Andy, a kick) in one direction, then reverse within a half second, the FE will send a roll and yaw speed in one direction, and the pursuer will see you move in that first direction. Then you'll have reversed, and the opponent's FE will have to update a movement 2-4 times what you actually did. That's stick stirring.
Often it occurs by pilots who haven't studied much BFM, but who find tha this works. They have little idea what it looks like on the other side.
Every 500ms? Is the lag that bad?
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whots a dweeb move?
is it a move that some fighter jock who thinks he's ace of the day cant seem to figure out how to avoid gettin killed by?
lag is an advantage....use it.
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Originally posted by -pjk--
Just curious, is AH using knots or mph?, i know AH do not use km/h.
Potkaiskaa niitä perseeseen!!
pjk
Hehhee! Aika paha PJK!
Aces High käyttää ainoastaan mph nopeutta vaikka Ryssät ja Sakut käytti km/h. Nopeus mittarin valkoinen viisari ilmaisee ilmanopeutta (IAS) ja punainen viisari maanopeutta eli tosi nopeutta (TAS).
Korkeus ilmaistaan jalkoina ja ikonin laser etäisyysmittari on jaardeina (n 1m).
Rooksit potkii kaikkia persiiseen!
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About a week ago I watched a show on History Chanel about the P51. I was thrilled when one of the Aces (Don Blakeslee I think) described this exact maneuver and called it a "snap roll". I immediately went into AH and in offline mode I filmed myself flying straight and level and at a predetermined point I jammed the stick full forward to the left while at the same time jamming in full right rudder. The result was extremely interesting specially when looked at from trailing view with tracks. Anyone up close and personal on your six would surely be disoriented by the sudden move. Try it.
Beeg
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Isn't this the move called 'Skid'?
The plane banking into one direction, but goes 'mushy' and the indication of the plane's pitch is totally off from the flight path, thus, confusing the attacker and forces an overshoot??
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pjk mph
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Its hillarious someone complaining that someone had pulled off an evasive manouver on them. What do we do, sit there to be shot down?
It reminds me of a story my old man told me (Spit IX's, Italian Theatre 1944). They were beating up HMS Ajax in Salonika harbour for practice and Ajax AA called up "hey you Spits, could you come in a bit higher, we can't bring our guns to bear" :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by FOGOLD
Its hillarious someone complaining that someone had pulled off an evasive manouver on them. What do we do, sit there to be shot down?
what part of this is it that you fail to understand?
Originally posted by Shane
i'm fairly good about forcing overshoots with barrel rolls, and i've yet to be labeld "fish-floppy" when performing them.
probably because i've taken the time to futz with my scaling and dampers and don't jerk the stick all over when performing this manuver. i hate seeing it, so i'd be hypocritical if i did the same.
it can be done WITHOUT having to appear fish-floppy.
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All this would matter except for one thing, it doesnt matter where the stick stirring bandit actually is, all that matters is where it is on your fe, if he's pullin right and u hit him on your fe, he's dead, he could be going in the opposite direction according to the server or his fe, doesnt matter, you hit him on your fe, he's dead.
CRASH
Originally posted by Dinger
Okay:
Snap roll is basically inducing a spin in level flight. It works better in WB than AH (I mean, in DOA I could snap roll with precision to fake a split-ess), but some planes do it better than others. The "stop moving your stick so rapidly" doesn't really work against stick stirring. It usually catches me when I'm in a buff and switching positions. But here's how stick-stirring works:
Contrary to popular opinion, it's all about small control movements. Your position and velocity is updated every half second, so if you do an ailer roll and rudder kick (yes, Andy, a kick) in one direction, then reverse within a half second, the FE will send a roll and yaw speed in one direction, and the pursuer will see you move in that first direction. Then you'll have reversed, and the opponent's FE will have to update a movement 2-4 times what you actually did. That's stick stirring.
Often it occurs by pilots who haven't studied much BFM, but who find tha this works. They have little idea what it looks like on the other side.
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Exactly crash, but if he can do gentle, energy-retaining maneuvers that make him appear to be flopping wildly on the following bogey's FE, obliging him to burn E to stay in the saddle, then he's getting an advantage off of the net code.
500ms is not a question of "Lag" per se. The code has to be able to accommodate 32 or so planes at a high level of detail (precise location, weapons status, gear, flaps, etc). That means getting an update every half second and "connecting the dots". It works pretty well most of the time.
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Originally posted by Dinger
Exactly crash, but if he can do gentle, energy-retaining maneuvers that make him appear to be flopping wildly on the following bogey's FE, obliging him to burn E to stay in the saddle, then he's getting an advantage off of the net code.
The attacker will not have to burn E to stay in the saddle. He doesn't suddenly stop in mid air, he keeps going with the same speed and direction or pretty damn close when a guy stick stirs, he just spins around a bit un-naturally in terms of attitude. All the attacker has to do is hold it steady and gun him down... easy. If you see a guy spinning wildly and slowing dramatically so that you have to dump E to avoid overshooting, chances are he has spun his aircraft, either intentionally or by accident.
Originally posted by Dinger
500ms is not a question of "Lag" per se. The code has to be able to accommodate 32 or so planes at a high level of detail (precise location, weapons status, gear, flaps, etc). That means getting an update every half second and "connecting the dots". It works pretty well most of the time.
And you are correct, that 500 ms is not the latency, it's the interval. Twice per second (roughly) positional data on the planes around you get sent from the host to your client. Latency is how long it takes that data to get from the other guy's client, to the host, and then to you. That latency is actually amazingly low all things considered, and is really only a big issue when high closure rates are involved. A couple of things to add to this are that aircraft positions are updated much less frequently in stages as they get farther away from you. You can often see one of these transitions when an enemy gets inside of D4.0, as a small warp sometimes occurs as either he gets updated more frequently or his information is given a higher priority. No matter how you slice it, HT is some kind of programming god in my book to make it work as well as it does over this huge, messy, unreliable mess we call the Internet. HT.
To those of us playing the game, this latency issure (lag) is only a big issue at a merge, where there is a very high closure rate. In that case, you have to remember that what you are seeing is what the bogey did up to 2 seconds ago in an extreme situation. Mostly this just means you need to mentally subtract from the range at which you either hit your merge moves, or the range at which your opponent can shoot you.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
The attacker will not have to burn E to stay in the saddle. He doesn't suddenly stop in mid air, he keeps going with the same speed and direction or pretty damn close when a guy stick stirs, he just spins around a bit un-naturally in terms of attitude. All the attacker has to do is hold it steady and gun him down... easy. If you see a guy spinning wildly and slowing dramatically so that you have to dump E to avoid overshooting, chances are he has spun his aircraft, either intentionally or by accident.
you're forgetting you're a jug-head :rolleyes: who can afford to hose and spray to hit that wildly flopping bandit. that flopping can easily make you miss a ton of shots, even more so when he *does* also move off the plane you're trying to hit - they don;y just stay on that plane, but do displace some.
simply put it's a dweeby tactic/netcode issue that needs ot be addressed on two levels - end user and code. hmmm?
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Lephturn wrote:
The attacker will not have to burn E to stay in the saddle. He doesn't suddenly stop in mid air, he keeps going with the same speed and direction or pretty damn close when a guy stick stirs, he just spins around a bit un-naturally in terms of attitude. All the attacker has to do is hold it steady and gun him down... easy.
I'm gonna have to heartily disagree with you here Leph. :)
No he doesn't stop in mid air, but he moves in a manner where you can't get a solid guns solution. He doesn't just spin around a single axis, they flop back and forth left to right rapidly, with the aircraft randomly blinking in and out of view (depending on his connect quality), or in case of near stall speed stick stiring the aircraft can literally displace 2-3 wingspans at a time, in all 3 dimensions
Then either you eventually run out of ammo, say in an aircraft like the Yak-9U or a Me109, or he buys himself enough time to get to ack or follow on friendlies.
Yes, you may eventually get him, but he has by this time burned your ammo, your E, or put you in an extremely disadvantageous position against his countrymen.
Your looking at this from a merely 1 v 1 situation (and mainly from a P47 with 8 .50's and loads of ammo), and not a many vs many situation which is the normal in the main arena.
Two totally different things.
People Stick stir and warp roll because it works.
And I counter with this arguement. If stick stirring is such a 'non-issue' as you claim, why did HiTech implement the 'anti-stir' code in the first place? Obviously, he thought is was a problem.
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Nope, this maneuver is called a snap roll and as I said in another post the best way to appreciate it is to do what I described while filming it. You'll see what I'm talking about. I suspect that what you call a skid is a level flight slip which means that you apply either left or right aileron and opposite rudder while holding altitude with the elevators. This cross controlled situation causes the fuselage of the aircraft to be banked into the relative wind (direction of travel) while the application of opposite rudder prevents the airplane from turning in the direction of the bank. This has two effects; 1. you get a super drag situation totally destroying E and what may help you is that the bandit thinks you're going one way while you're actually heading in another direction. When he attempts to lead the shot to where he thinks you're gonna be you'll be somewhere else.
Beeg
Originally posted by Kweassa
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Isn't this the move called 'Skid'?
The plane banking into one direction, but goes 'mushy' and the indication of the plane's pitch is totally off from the flight path, thus, confusing the attacker and forces an overshoot??
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Originally posted by pimpjoe
whots a dweeb move?
is it a move that some fighter jock who thinks he's ace of the day cant seem to figure out how to avoid gettin killed by?
lag is an advantage....use it.
How very gamey of you. Go back to Quake.
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Interesting Quake analogy:
Stick stirring is Quake's bunny-hopping to avoid getting hit.
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ROFL tumor...it just gets old reading about how people cant seem to figure out how avoid getting killed by a move that is tooo easy to counter. just cut throttle and get real close...a short burst takes care of them real easy.
quit yer whinin and go back to killin:)
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a) it's not a snap roll, a snap roll goes consistently in one direction and doesn't show the nose and tail bobbling on rubber bands up to 45 degrees.
b) it's not always easy to "get real close", especially when both are slow, of comparable speed or when in pursuit of a fish flopping faster plane, these fish flops result in not one whit of loss of e or speed.
c) this effect can be greatly reduced, 85% i'd wager by simply players tweaking their scaling/dampers, which would be forced if they started getting the "do not move" message, no? maybe the remaining 15% could be done by further netcode tweaking?
these are *not* warps. it's simply a visual of a plane doing something that just isn't physically possible, unless it's tumbling out of control in a flat spin, which they aren't. it's a player induced effect.
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i still dont get it.
you are whining about a move.
whats next...whining about who somebody wings with?
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You know, we could solve the academic part of this debate very easily with a trip to the TA and the film recorder. Somebody look me up when I'm in the MA (CFIT), and I'll try my best at stick stirring.
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pointing out dweeby gamers who detract from the experience.
you're quite the flopstar at times too, is that why you're so defensive, it'd be taking away your limited survival skills?
:D
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Its dweeb trick. gamey. unrealistic. X-wing is NOT what I'm here to play.
Hope HTC tweaks up the stir code again.
Soon.
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yes shane...you have it all figured out...that is my ONLY defensive move, and will die constantly without it:rolleyes:
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Actually Dinger its not that simple.
The rate at which the gun cam film records positional updates, and the rate which your FE recieves them online and then interprets thru the smoothing code are different in my experience.
Just like film sometimes doesn't show warping, it commonly won't show stick stirring.
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No he doesn't stop in mid air, but he moves in a manner where you can't get a solid guns solution. He doesn't just spin around a single axis, they flop back and forth left to right rapidly, with the aircraft randomly blinking in and out of view (depending on his connect quality), or in case of near stall speed stick stiring the aircraft can literally displace 2-3 wingspans at a time, in all 3 dimensions
This is what I see happing , anyone with alot of onine time can spot the differance IMO between this and the other moves .
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Ok, fair enough guys, I do look at this issue from a jug pilot's point of view. I also have not seen this behaviour in a long time, and I've been flying a bit lately.
Also, I seem to see something a bit different from what you guys are seeing, but that's possibly again because I tend to fly a bird that encourages me to be well above stall speed most of the time. What I see isn't a big deal, but at slower speeds with more displacement, I can see your point.
The problem is that there are plenty of VALID moves that can trigger the stick stirring code if you tighten it down too much. I'm already trying to help new folks who are accidentally triggering the stick stirring code simply trying to line up a shot. Sure, the are over-controlling, but we all did that when we started. However, instead of just missing, they are locking up and getting killed. So from my point of view I don't think you could "tighten" the sensitivity of the stick stirring code without causing lots more problems.
So my question to you all is this... how do you differentiate stick stirring from a new user simply over-controlling trying to line up a shot? How do you prevent stick stirring without locking up that guy? I think HT is right on the critical balance point with the code he has now, and any more restrictive will cause a LOT more problems in my view.
Also, I think testing and filming is a good idea. Sure, it might not show up on the film... but it also might. Even if it doesn't show on film properly, the positional data comparison if you film it from both sides might give HT something to look at. It's worth a shot.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
Ok, fair enough guys, I do look at this issue from a jug pilot's point of view. I also have not seen this behaviour in a long time, and I've been flying a bit lately.
So my question to you all is this... how do you differentiate stick stirring from a new user simply over-controlling trying to line up a shot? How do you prevent stick stirring without locking up that guy? I think HT is right on the critical balance point with the code he has now, and any more restrictive will cause a LOT more problems in my view.
two words: scaling/damping.
by tightening up the routine, perhaps more would be "encouraged" to properly dampen/scale their sticks instead of leaving them 100% scaled and 0% deadband/damper.
no one *needs* or *can't avoid* fish flopping - it *can* and should be adjusted out.
I'm a proud non-flopstar. :)
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Shane he was talking about unintentional overcontrolling, not ba d stick scaling or deadband.
However I think that the stick stirring code could be an effective way to teach the newbie out of the overcontrolling moves..
Stick stirring code isn't getting them killed. It's their lack of skill that gets them killed - even if it's via stick stir code in this situation.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
Shane he was talking about unintentional overcontrolling, not ba d stick scaling or deadband.
a teensy weensy bit of deadband would help here, too.
if by chasing the micro-adjustments, which (would) results in a stick-stirring routine trigger, this means the player's stick input is overly senstive and would benefit greatly from proper scaling and db/d.
this type of issue has nothing to do with the floppy-fish thing we've been referring to, altho' i can see how it is/could be an issue for many people - and i maintain this type of trigger can be tweaked right out with proper scaling db/b.
:)
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I dont know...after reading all the posts again in my experience and opinion it comes down to this, the guys that "stick stir" and flop around like fish are generally near stall speed, are overcontrolling the a/c and simply appear to be flopping around their cg, easy targets. If ya miss, pull up, conserve ur e and come back down again, simple. If you get yourself into a rolling scissors with some guy thats doin that and get yourself shot down, it's your own damn fault. Absolutely no reason to start messin' with the code IMO. The only guys I have a problem hitting are the guys that overcontrol and spin. Those a/c apear to move laterally several wingspans and are damn near impossible to hit. If HT starts messin with the code lookin to fix something, I think that should be it.
On to a better point, if ya dont like "stick stirrin" dweebs, lookin' for good clean fights, fly the ct :)
CRASH
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Agree with you Crash.
Last night I was climbing in a P51 with autospeed set to 155. I was typing away not paying attention and a rook P51 drops in on me (Midnight). Going so slow, my only manuever was to try to roll over and dive. Since speed was low and my nose was up, I stalled and went into a spin. As I struggled to get out of the spin, I am thinking 3 things - 1) I'm dead; 2) This guy must think I am a dweeb for getting jumped so easily; 3) I hope this guy doesn't think I am stick stirring.
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Originally posted
Unfortunately, we must ad the LAG factor into this manuever which means it really goes both ways. Performing the manuever is completely valid. Performing the manuever while playing to the net lag makes it dweebish as hell.
I will never limit my self to certain moves or planes simply because certain people think other options are "dweebish". Call me a dweeb but I'll still be alive. Also, I absolutely refuse to increase my stick dampening to prevent the "appearance" of floppy-fish (whatever the hell that is :)). I never have tried to cause my plane to warp in a fight in any sim. Likewise I never get the stick stirring message in combat. However, if in AH certain moves cause warps, (I don't believe they generally do, because, frankly I see maybe 1 warp a day) then thats a problem with AH not the pilot. Adapt to the game because it is online and it will change. If performing manuver x causes a plane to appear to nose up and dive down backwards, the pilot had better be prepared for that so it doesn't catch you off guard so much.
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Based on what I understand I suspect you're mistaken Verm. My understanding is that the "guncam film" is nothing more than a recording of everything that came in or out of your FE in a stream. The player isn't interpreting a film it's just playing back what it originally played through the exact same interface, the game, with a couple of enhancements e.g. the tracers and the multiple positioning feature which are turned off during live play. I suspect that "film" should show exactly what happened.
Beeg
Originally posted by Vermillion
Actually Dinger its not that simple.
The rate at which the gun cam film records positional updates, and the rate which your FE recieves them online and then interprets thru the smoothing code are different in my experience.
Just like film sometimes doesn't show warping, it commonly won't show stick stirring.
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Well Crash, if it helps, I agree with you -- most stick stirrers just burn E-- but thinking about it, there's probably a "sophisticated" way to game the code; just like you can split-ess to foil an attack or draw the attacker into rolling scissors, you can either "E-burn" stick stir, or do it such that you blow minimal energy.
I haven't done the "Film recorder" test. My experience is that it records the local plane's position according to its updates to the server, but I'm not sure it restricts the remote updates.
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I'm already trying to help new folks who are accidentally triggering the stick stirring code simply trying to line up a shot. Sure, the are over-controlling, but we all did that when we started. However, instead of just missing, they are locking up and getting killed.[/i]
Dunno Leph, if they are trippin the stir code in training, better they learn about overcontrolling and its impacts THERE in training.
And, lol.. what are yah teachin 'em.. the finer points of the HO?? How in hell does a guy kill himself while shooting, overcontrolling and tripping the stir code?
henh.. just went online with an FW and yanked and tromped and stirred like a madman.. never tripped the code. How is it yer students can trip that code and I can't? No scaling on my stick.. none at all.
Wierd.
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Originally posted by Tumor
How very gamey of you. Go back to Quake.
TUMOR, Bravo for your sense of sport. Anyone who uses lag or latency or any other failings of net or game to get advantage, rather than just playing it straight and letting the chips fall where they may, is not a sport, and not worth the honor of a challenge.
KaK3, loved by all:>)
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I understand the posts above re "floppy fish" and also understand that we are playing a computer program that is handraulically coded by a programmer so there will always be limits to what can be done cf realism but just because I happened to read this today and thought it might relate to evasions here tos:
Its from Mike Spicks Luftwaffe Fighter Aces book:
Hartmans "Last Ditch" evasion maneuver
As the enemy fighter approached, Hartman used rudder to point his fighter in a slightly different direction from the way it was going, to mislead the attacker into misjudging the amount of deflection required. When his opponent opened fire, Hartman slammed the stick into the far corner of the cockpit, putting his messerschmitt into the first half of asn outside oblique loop.
sonds like Hartman stirred that stick!!!;)
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Originally posted by KaK3
TUMOR, Bravo for your sense of sport. Anyone who uses lag or latency or any other failings of net or game to get advantage, rather than just playing it straight and letting the chips fall where they may, is not a sport, and not worth the honor of a challenge.
kak3 are you telling me that when for that split second before a plane warps when it is suspended in mid air that you dont take a shot because it wouldnt be "fair"? that IS how the chips fall. take every advantage you get...cause you never know when your gonna lose it to a mistake.
i understand that you fly spitfires quite frequently. dont take this the wrong way...im not knocking you or the plane, but your talking about sport and challenges...just curious...how much of a challenge is it to get up in a spitIX and go dogfight with such planes as p47's and 190's?
food for thought