Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Urchin on January 23, 2002, 04:20:21 PM
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Fw190-D9 -
General Strengths- Very good level speed on the deck (at 375 or so on WEP). Very good roll rate at all speeds. Dives extremely well. Sustained climb is good, if not fantastic. Zoom climb is also good.
General Weaknesses- Very poor sustained turning. Some people have trouble with the guns. I personally set my convergence in the Dora to 375 and I fire all guns at the same time.
Against the Spit IX- The Spitfire has a definate advantage in the flat turning department. Sustained climb rates are similar. The Dora has a definate advantage in diving, zoom climbing, and roll rate.
Attacking the Spitfire- Use your advantages. Do NOT try to turn with the Spitfire. Do NOT let your speed drop below 300mph (true, not indicated). Be patient when you are attacking the Spitfire. If you are co-alt or higher than the Spitfire, you are almost certainly at an E-advantage, so you want to keep that. Avoid hard manuevers, make a pass and then extend in a nice, low-G climb to minimize E-loss. Basically, you will be BnZ'ing the hapless Spitfire. Avoid the HO, if he turns into you just climb above him, if you are lucky he will stall out going for the shot, in which case you have just gotten an easy kill.
Defending against the Spitfire- If you got caught low and slow, you are going to have a tough time. If you see the Spit coming in time, punch WEP and do a shallow dive to get your speed up to at least 300 mph (true). If he dives on you, turn into his attack and try to make him angle his nose down even more by flying under him. If he is coming from your level 6, you will probably have a tough time getting away (assuming he is faster). There is a more detailed explanation in the thread "what to do in this situation" (or something like that), with several good evasives to use if someone is coming up your tail. If the Spit is co-alt with you or lower, he can't attack you even if he wanted to. You decide when and if you are going to fight the Spitfire.
The N1K2- Again, the N1K2 has the advantage in flat turning. The Dora holds the advantages in climb rate, diving speed (although the N1K is faster in a dive than the Spit, so beware), and roll rate.
Attacking the N1K2- In general, you will be using the same tactics against the N1K2 that you will use on the Spitfire. Stay fast, avoid turning. You will not be able to 'saddle up' on a N1K2 or a Spitfire in the Dora, so make the most of your shot opportunities. If anything, the Dora has an even greater advantage in the vertical sphere against the N1K than the Spit, because the N1K will stall out sooner.
Defending against the N1K2- As with the Spitfire, if you got caught low and slow you will have a very tough time of it. See the thread mentioned above for help in that situation, and once you get him to overshoot you should probably take advantage of the Doras good acceleration and top speed and leave quickly :).
The La-7- This plane holds almost every advantage in a fight with a Dora. The La-7 is faster, accelerates and climbs better, dives faster, and turns better. The Dora has a marginal edge in roll rate.
Attacking the LA-7- Start with an altitude advantage if it is at all possible. I would advise against turning with the La-7, although the turning advantage the La-7 has is nowhere near as pronounced as the turning advantage the N1K and Spit enjoy. I generally try to keep my speed up and hope for the best. Most new pilots will have a very tough time against the La-7.
Defending against the LA-7- Again, the La-7 holds all the cards. If he has initiated the combat, you have very little hope but to try to run as far as you can while screaming for help.
*NOTE- the above holds true below 10k. If you are above 10k, much of the La-7s advantages in climb rate, acceleration, and top speed over the Dora evaporates. However, all the LA-7 has to do to get away is dive back under 10k, where it is at an advantage.
The P-51- The Dora most of the cards in this fight. The P-51 turns a little better, but the Dora accelerates and climbs better. Diving speed is just about equal, the P51 can hold onto the extra speed longer.
Attacking the P51- You can be just about as aggresive as you want here. You CAN in fact 'saddle up' on a P51 in a Dora. The P51s turning advantage is not all that great at speeds above 250 mph, if the turning fight looks like it will slow down below 250, merely break off, climb up, and initiate the fight again at will.
Defending against the P-51- Again, I am more aggresive defensively against the P-51 than against the other 3 popular planes. Try to force an overshoot, and once you do just hang onto his tail. Go for any snapshots you can get, as the P-51 has a radiator that is fairly vulnerable to battle damage (although not quite as frail as the Doras, in my opinon).
Flying the 109G-10- The G10 is a little bit tougher to get kills in than the Dora. You aren't putting out as much lead, so it is tougher to get snapshot kills on the N1K2's and Spits. I don't really have an opinion on the gondolas. Sometimes I use them and sometimes I don't. I will say that the only plane that the G-10 loses its advantages against when it mounts gondolas is the P-51. The La-7 is still vastly superior (even moreso if the G-10 has gondolas), the Spit and N1K are still merely targets.
Against the Spitfire- Offensively and Defensivly, you want to use the same tactics you used in the Dora. You will have a tougher time killing the Spit with the G-10.
Against the N1K2- Again, use the same tactics you used against the N1K2 in the Dora. Again, you will have a tougher time getting kills.
Against the La-7- The La-7 still holds the cards in this fight. The La-7 out-everythings the G-10. Be very careful when flying near La-7s.
Against the P-51- In my opinion, the G-10 holds the cards in this one. The G-10 isnt quite as fast on the deck as the P-51, but it accelerates, climbs, and turns better. The P-51 can dive away from a G-10, which will compress (so you better have elevator trim mapped to your stick :)).
Attacking the P-51- It is best to be very aggresive against the P-51. Saddle up, and if he turns you turn right with him. You may have a tough time staying with him if he dives to above 400 mph, in that case use a "lag" pursuit to stay in the same general orientation, then drop back onto his 6 once he pulls out of the dive.
Defending against the P-51- In most cases, I am very aggresive on defense as well. Try to create an overshoot, then stick onto his tail like glue. If you really must get out of a bad situation, dive to about 400 mph, then start a shallow climb away from the Mustang. You should begin to pull away as the excess speed wears off and the contest comes down to sustained climb rates.
Flying the 190A5- The A5 is quite a bit slower than the Dora and the G-10. It still accelerates quite well, and it turns quite a bit better than the Dora does, but not quite as well as the G-10 does. Sustained climb rates are good, if not phenomenal. Roll rate is excellent at all speeds. The A5 can also dive quite well, but it doesnt hold that extra speed as long as the LW thoroughbreds.
Against the Spitfire- The Spitfire still holds a flat turning advantage (duh :)). Also, the A5 doesnt have as large a margin of safety speedwise as the G-10 and Dora have. For that reason, you want to be higher than the Spitfire you attack, so you can zoom back up to safety after you make your firing pass. The Spitfire has an edge in sustained climbing, but the A5 can dive and zoom better.
Attacking the Spitfire- Start with an altitude advantage. Stay fast. In general, you are going to be using the same tactics you used before, but the A5s extra firepower means you can get more kills with your snapshots.
Defending against the Spitfire- If you get caught low and slow, you are in serious trouble. If you see him coming in time, just punch WEP and dive, and you can outdistance him.
Against the N1K2- In general, the N1K holds the advantage in a fight. It is only a couple miles per hour slower, it turns and climbs better, and accelerates faster.
Attacking the N1K2- Use the same tactics you used against the Spitfire, but be even more careful not to get sucked into a turning fight.
Defending against the N1K2- In general, don't. If you are put on the defensive and you can get away, just run. You will eventually outdistance the N1K2. If a N1K2 dives on you, you have pretty much had it.
Against the La-7- The La-7 still holds all the cards. Use BnZ to attack, but don't make to many passes or you will eventually reach the stage where your target has more E than you do. On defense you are pretty much dead against the La-7.
Against the P-51- The P-51 is quite a bit faster on the deck. The A5 turns better (at least I think it does, there are others that disagree with me), accelerates better (at least to its top speed), and has much more firepower. Climb rates are roughly equal, with the A5 perhaps having a slight edge. Diving acceleration and speed are roughly equal, with the P-51 holding onto the extra speed much longer.
Attacking the P-51- Be aggresive! Saddle up and take every shot you can, the P-51 can't take much punishment from 20mm cannon.
Defending against the P-51- If the P51 tries to BnZ you, you will have a difficult time. Turn into his attacks and try to force a HO, otherwise you will be killed eventually. If he tries to saddle up, create an overshoot and kick his bellybutton :).
OK, well, I am tired of typing. I'll cover the A8 and the rest of the 109s a little later, after my fingers have rested.
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...and bail out the moment a red p-38 shows up. You're doomed ;) :D
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Nice tips there. Thanks very much.
- oldman
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Ok, here goes a few more-
109G2- The G2 is the 2nd best 109 in my opinion. It is faster than the G6 (and F4) and turns better than the G6 and G10. It also has good a sustained climb rate and good acceleration.
Against the Spitfire- The Spitfire still holds the edge in flat turning. The G2 has an edge in suatained climbing and speed. Diving acceleration is close, but the G2 can outrun a Spitfire after a sustained dive.
Attacking the Spitfire- Again, you will be using BnZ tactics. You can safely turn with a Spitfire for about 90 degrees, if you haven't gotten the kill by then you need to dive out to get your speed back up. If you are a new pilot, I'd recommend gondolas, this will make killing Spitfires much easier.
Defending against the Spitfire- You will have a much tougher time getting away from a Spitfire in a G2 than you would in a G10. You can still outrun them, but the margin isn't as wide. I'd recommend a shallow dive or shallow climb to get away from a particularly persistant Spitfire. Be aware that those cannons can put a hurting on your plane, so don't get lazy and go completely straight until you are about 1000 yards away.
Against the N1K2- Again, you will use the same sort of tactics against the N1K2 that you used against the Spitfire. The G2 really only holds an edge in sustained climb and level speed, and those are not wide margins.
Attacking the N1K2- Use BnZ tactics. You can turn with a N1K2 for perhaps 120 to 150 degrees, but I would not recommend it unless you are absolutely sure you will get the kill as a result. Conserve your speed and be patient, you will wear him down eventually.
Against the LA7- The La7 holds a large advantage in sustained and zoom climbing, level speed, and acceleration. The G2 has a better sustained turn rate.
Attacking the LA7- It is tough to attack an La7 in a G2, because the La7 can break off the combat at will. I'd recommend saddling up and staying with the La7 as long as he will let you. If he tries to turnfight you, he will lose.
Defending against the La7- Here the G2 has an advantage over the G10. While the La7 still has major advantages over the 109, the G2 can at least outturn the La7. I'd recommend using flat turns to avoid his attacks, if you can create an overshoot with a flat turn, you can win the fight.
Against the P-51D- The P-51 has an advantage in level speed. The G-2 takes acceleration, climb rate, and turn rate.
Attacking the P-51D- If you attack a P-51 while he is at high speed, he will likely be a challenge. Most P-51 pilots will elect to erm... 'extend' if faced with fighting a plane that has an advantage. If this is the case, you don't have very long to kill him. Stay fast, don't try to follow him through any 'wiggly' moves. If he starts to slow down rapidly, chop throttle and do a barrel roll to slow down, you will accelerate faster than he will if he tries to run away after failing to create an overshoot. If you manage to get the P-51 slow, he is an easy kill.
Defending against the P-51- Most P-51 pilots will try to BnZ you. You have to evade his attacks, yet conserve enough energy so that if he makes a mistake you can jump all over him. (most 109s are excellent at this, by the way). If you are both slow, just use flat turns to get him off your tail, if he elects to follow you you have won the fight.
Flying the 190A8- The A8 is really a bomber buster, not a fighter. It has incredible firepower, but not a whole lot of agility. You generally want to fly it conservatively, keep your speed up and BnZ. The A8 turns fairly well at high speeds (300 mph+), but it bleeds off speed fast in a turn and does not accelerate well at all.
Against the Spitfire- The Spitfire has the advantage in sustained climb rate, zoom climbing, turn rate, and acceleration. The 190A8 is slightly faster on the deck, although the advantage becomes less pronounced at higher altitudes (and the Spitfire is actually faster above 20k or so).
Attacking the Spitfire- The 190A8 is actually a great plane for BnZ, especially against Spitfires. You can use the A8s great rate of roll and decent high speed turning to line up your shot with much more accuracy than is possible than in a 109, and with much greater results than in a Dora. However, if you get suckered into dropping below 300 mph, you are dogmeat. If you get sucked into a turn fight with a Spitfire, dive as steeply as you can, get above 400 mph and then think about levelling out and running.
Defending against the Spitfire- Low and slow, you are dead meat. The only possible hope you have is to create an overshoot and get lucky with your snapshot. If you are over 300 mph, you have a good chance at being able to run away and fight another day.
Fighting the N1K2- The N1K2 holds all the advantages over the A8 that the Spitfire has, the A8 is marginally faster (but not enough to make a difference if you let that N1K2 get within 600 yards.
Attacking the N1K2- Use the same tactics you used against the Spitfire.
Defending against the N1K2- Use the same tactics you did against the Spitfire, saying a prayer might help to if you are low and slow.
Against the La-7- The La7 holds every advantage.
Attacking the La-7- I wouldn't recommend flying close to an La-7 in a 190A8, but if you simply must attack them, use BnZ and don't make to many passes.
Defending against the La-7- Again, if you are engaged by an La-7, you are almost automatically on the defensive. If he gives you a snapshot, take it. If not, I'd put your Wurger in a dive and run screaming to the nearest friendlies.
Against the P-51D- The P-51 holds the advantage in level speed, turning, and zooming. The 190A8 can dive with a P51, but it can't hold the extra speed as long. At speeds below 300 mph, the A8 outaccelerates the P51.
Attacking the P-51- You can be a bit more aggresive here than you would be against a N1K2 or Spit. Most P-51 drivers will elect to run if they are bounced, rather than turn into it. Fortunately for you, your A8 is a pretty fast plane in a dive, so you can generally bring those big guns to bear if they try to run in a straight line. If they try to turn into you, I'd recommend zooming to set up either BnZ or to just drop back onto their tail after they are done turning.
Defending against the P-51- In case you haven't gotten this by now, the cockpit of a 190A8 is a bad place to be if you are on defense. In general, attempt to create an overshoot and hammer him with a snapshot as he goes by. There are several good threads on how to create an overshoot, so I won't go into details here.
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you don't mention the leather underwear at all. That's an integral part of Luftwaffe flying. ;)
j.k. good info Urchin!
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I would tell a new LW-only pilot to firstly learn how to shoot and master the snapshot. As well as learning firstly the limits and potential of the G10 and 190A8 by ACM/BFM repetition, which will make it easier to move to less challenging LW/other aircraft that have similar tendencies but obviously much better performance for an arena or pvp setting.
The 109 series is not meant to be flown conservatively, this is prevelant in its lack of rudder authority above 400mph TAS, this is especially true with the G10--since it can pretty much fly aggressive but then get out of a situation that it doesnt want to be in--or use its advantages to reset its position for further attacks on hostiles. Constant BnZ tactics being used in a 109 is quite detrimental and unproductive.
Similarly, the A8, as Urchin stated; does not hold E well. As the the A8 is predisposed to be petulant in its E conservation it should not be used in constant BnZ attacks--yet in more aggressive styles. The fact that one must train and master the snapshot and be studious of the velocity of the 20mm/30mm is even more paramount for success in the 190A series than the 109, since one must be dutiful in that the passes are correct and result in hits on the hostile.
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Ah, but this is only referring to combat against Spits, N1Ks, La7s, and P51s. If I am in a G-10 I'll 'mix it' with a lot of planes. P47s, F4U's, P38s, F6F's, other 109s, 190s. I recommend mixing it with the P51, even if the LW pilot is a "newbie", as the 109 and 190 can dogfight a P51 fairly successfully. However, a new pilot would stand almost no chance if he attempted to turnfight a Spit, N1K, or La7.
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Somewhat true, however, I was not really suggesting to 'turn fight' with Spits, Niks, La7s. More so on being 'unpredictably aggressive' as I like to call it. Simplistically, the latter is basically a set of techniques to get the utmost suprise/panic out of a hostile aircraft by flying in a way he does not expect you to or what would be the norm in a LW type aircraft. The 'techniques' would basically result in causing the hostile to 'fumble' as I like to call it, he will not be prepared for an aggressive pass by a 190/109 most likely and thus he won't take the precautionary steps to prevent me to get a shot on him. Constant BnZ on the other hand is always sure to be easily defended by a hostile, especially ones like a Spit, Nik or La7--in any of those aircraft I can basically deny any 109/190 all BnZ shots every time he attempts it. And also bleed his E in the process which I will use later on to finesse him into my sights for a shot.
Expanding on the 'techniques', even a new Lw pilot can learn how to 'saddle up' on a better turning, better climbing, better diving, better accelerating aircraft for one or two shots--which he needs to make count by practicing his aim. From my experience, BnZ never results in anything productive except maybe making the opponent fall asleep, which DMF and I have been tortuously exposed to time and again. :(
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Nath's definitely right about cranking up the aggression level. I think that's the key in any plane, especially ones that can control a fight and enter or exit at will. I can only fly as aggressively in the Spit V as my opponents allow me. But in a 109G10, one can fly just about as aggressively as he'd like against most other planes. The true strength of fast, great-accelerating, great-climbing planes is the luxury of aggressiveness.
BnZ to me is anti-aggressive. It's often boring and complacent. I've literally fallen asleep at the computer before when having to deal with multiple BnZers who would make a pass, extend a sector while grabbing, then return. If that's how they want to fly, great, but they're not going to become better overall pilots by studiously avoiding the things that make you a better player.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
BnZ to me is anti-aggressive. It's often boring and complacent. I've literally fallen asleep at the computer before when having to deal with multiple BnZers who would make a pass, extend a sector while grabbing, then return. If that's how they want to fly, great, but they're not going to become better overall pilots by studiously avoiding the things that make you a better player.
Heh heh. But they WILL get more points. Let's keep our priorities straight here, shall we?
- oldman
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I understand what you mean. Lev, you have faced me a few times in the MA. How would you characterize my flying style? One that I remember particularly well was me and Wotan against you and someone else- we got the someone else but we never did get you, in spite of the fact you were in a Spit V and we were in Doras.
I've only faced Nath once I believe. He is a much more aggressive pilot than I am, at least I think so. I'll only press the attack if I think I have the advantage, I very rarely go for broke if I don't think I'll get the kill as a result. However, since he is also probably a better pilot than me, he can get away with it :). I generally can't.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I understand what you mean. Lev, you have faced me a few times in the MA. How would you characterize my flying style? One that I remember particularly well was me and Wotan against you and someone else- we got the someone else but we never did get you, in spite of the fact you were in a Spit V and we were in Doras.
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I do remember the fight you're talking about. I didn't know who I was fighting at the time, but I was very impressed at the aggressiveness I saw given the planes you guys were flying. There wasn't a moment where one or the other of you wasn't pulling for a firing solution on my six. Good stuff. I don't recall exactly, but I think the fight degenerated when I smoked one of you, after which the aggression level let up a bit.
I've only faced Nath once I believe. He is a much more aggressive pilot than I am, at least I think so. I'll only press the attack if I think I have the advantage, I very rarely go for broke if I don't think I'll get the kill as a result. However, since he is also probably a better pilot than me, he can get away with it :). I generally can't.
I'll intentionally put myself at a disadvantage to encourage an enemy to engage me. I'll often let enemies get as close as 500 to 800 yards off my dead six before "starting" the fight. The reason for doing that is to force them to commit. They might make a few half-hearted BnZ passes, but enough looks at my six and most people will eventually commit to pulling hard for a firing solution. At that point, they've screwed up and started playing my game. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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One thing i still dont get ist the aggressiveness point.
I fly the Dora very very often, but if i fly it what i call aggressive, i will die 10 outta 10 times.
So what from of aggressiveness do you mean?
When the dora 1st came out, i ran into Nath, and after getting frustrated by multiple deaths, i startet to talk to him, and we then did, what i would call, a 1v1 lesson in the MA. I was only one time able to kill Nath, and that was at a point were he did a mistake, so actually he got himself.
But what i found out during this fights were, that when i press hard for the kill, giving my target no time to relax, it will get the upperhand sooner or later cause the D9 will lose its advantage. And in the end i die.
On the other hand i can rack up kills with patience and got SA, working with my advantage and find the right time to drop out when it is not running in my favour.
Especially for the D9 i find aggressivness kills me, i tried the A8 a few day at low level, and found it to be a better plane for the low alt mixup. Also i could fly it more aggressive that the D9.
So what form of aggressiveness you mean?
Take into account, that i think of myself as pilot like this:
ACM skill & knowledge: average or less than average
shooting: usually good, interupted by days of pure airhole shooting
SA: usually good-exellent, also interupted from time to time by days of horror
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I'll intentionally put myself at a disadvantage to encourage an enemy to engage me. I'll often let enemies get as close as 500 to 800 yards off my dead six before "starting" the fight
Thats my setup for a fight. That means you partly suck btw.
Drex
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Originally posted by Naudet
So what form of aggressiveness you mean?
By aggressiveness I mean pressing one's advantages without letting up. That doesn't mean being so aggressive as to screw up. Think of it this way...
Imagine you're in a Dora above an enemy Spitfire. You can dive on the Spitfire, pull briefly for a firing solution, then zoom again. You can zoom to 900 yards above the Spit and begin the attack again, or you can zoom to 3k above the Spit to begin your attack again.
Which is more aggressive? Why would you zoom to 3k above the Spit when 900 yards work just as well? In addition, by zooming less you throw off the Spit's timing, give him less of a chance to set up for future attacks, and you kill more quickly and efficiently. You don't need to turn with the Spit to be aggressive, but there are ways to press your particular plane's advantages without fighting the other guy's fight.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Drex
Thats my setup for a fight. That means you partly suck btw.
If I'm flying at all like you, I must be sucking badly!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Dead Man, what u describe as aggressiveness is the way i die much to often. To me it seems it exactly what will put me infront of the guns of my tgt.
Anyway were i try to reverse without having D2.0+ will result in my death. Only if the other guy is a real dumb one, this will be the outcome.
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WOW, Gents what a great thread...
I printed it for study...
Thanks for taking the time to put this all together
Now... Anybody up to tackling the same with the P-38 ?
BOOT
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying Why would you zoom to 3k above the Spit when 900 yards work just as well?
I think the major limitation of computer simulated BFM/ACM is the lack of depth perception.
Because of this, it's often hard to judge "E" state of the enema, so a cyberjock extends farther than needed in self-defense.
You are correct that zooming to 3k is less aggressive, however sometimes a more conservative attack is wiser than running the risk is screwing the pooch.
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying You don't need to turn with the Spit to be aggressive, but there are ways to press your particular plane's advantages without fighting the other guy's fight.
-- Todd/Leviathn
And this gents is the "trick" to the whole K/D ratio equation. He who fights on his terms, knows his limitations as well as his enemies is gonna be ranked "ACE".
Very good post Urchin. I enjoyed reading it.
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I've been on the wrong end of both Nath and Leviathn a couple of times and have a bit on and idea of their aggressive flying style. I remember noticing a low 109 over the water off A11 in ndisles against one or two bish many tours ago. I was several k higher in a D-hog, so I began diving to attack speed. Nath killed the (or both) bish and noticed me coming. I noticed he didn't take the HO, but was going full speed to get under me. Seeing this before, I kept going, jinking a bit as he was going under me and diving for speed. I looked back and sure enough he pulled a very quick immelman and was shooting at me. Thankfully I was far enough away, or I would've been missing vital parts. I notice a lot of the better guys going for these quick immelmans to go for belly shots. It also gets them on your six very quick, and if I don't have enough energy advantage, pulling a climb to rope is still too risky given their shooting ability. Seen this last night in the CT versus Manedew and Dbltrbl in their Hellcats (I was in a Ki-61). Going full out under me, so I would roll to put my side profile to them and get out of plane then continue extending. They are good enough shots anyway and I got a hit with a couple pings this way w/o damage. Without enough e-advantage I didn't feel confident enough to reverse back on them when they hit the peaks of their immelmans, so I just left. I even tried a gentle climb on one of these occasions, but due to their speed they went from d850 or so to d900 then back to d850 and closing, so I gave up and dove for it.
I think I know what Leviathn is saying wrt extending to 900 and reversing and extending to 3k and reversing. It does requires you have a very good handle on whether or not your target has the ability to point his/her nose at you though when you decide to reverse. I've been burned enough before misjudging their speed/E so I normally play it safe. I know there have been many instances when I've felt damn glad I didn't try to reverse too quickly. Having your target's nose come around or up so quickly is a surprise, and I know if I hadn't elected to extend a bit more I would've been hit bad. There is a lot of timing/judging involved which I know I haven't got down yet, but at least I think I have an idea of what it takes.
Flying LW planes (specifically the 190 for me) does indeed entail good snapshot skills. To me it also requires a good ability to judge energy states and good anticipation of what your target or attacker will do next before he/she does it (you know, like using the force :p). Having a good handle on both, I can see how flying the four cannon A8 would be extremely deadly for opponents. Having said all that, I'm still not sure if I hit the nail on the head wrt what Nath and Leviathn are getting at. I myself fly very conservatively for the most part (I'm guilty of boring Leviathn to death one evening many tours ago when he was in a tiff and I elected to fly a P51D). Getting a little better at judging E-states so I don't wait so long to reverse now, so I get a few more rope kills than I used to.
mauser
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Naudet, I think maybe being unpredictable is better than being 'aggressive' in the pure sense of the word. There are different levels of aggression. For instance, lets say you spot a lone Spitfire about 5 thousand feet below you. Of course, you dive on it, and you really hope it doesnt see you so you can get an easy kill :). Unfortunately, he does see you, and breaks into your attack. The least aggressive option you have here is to simply zoom off and go looking for someone with less SA. The most aggressive option is to simply accept the HO and hope you have better aim than he does (this one I very rarely take :)). Or, you can do a short zoom, watch out the back of your canopy to see what he does, and then attack again.
Lets say for our purposes that he merely continues flying straight after he breaks into your first attack. You zoom to set up for another attack. You come out in a fairly steep dive coming from his 6. Lets say he does a hard break turn to the left at a range of 600 yards. Again, you have a few options here. You can just abort the pass and zoom up again (like you did the first time). You can go for the shot anyway and possibly expose yourself to a snapshot from the Spitfire when you overshoot. The third option is best, and what I normally do. I'll pull up like I'm zooming, but I'll keep a visual on the Spitfire. If he tries to barrel roll or turn to his original course, I'll simply come right back down after him after my 'short' zoom. If he stays in his break turn, I'll climb and then do a 'high yo-yo' (basically you pull up into a zoom, then roll so the top of your head is pointed to where the spitfire is going to go [the technical term is 'lift vector], then cut inside of his turn and go for the shot.
The nice thing about being in a Dora against a Spitfire is you can be VERY aggresive, even to the point of foolhardiness. As long as you stay above 300 mph, the Spitfire can't touch you (assuming you started off in the attacking position). You can turn with him if he tries to break turn out of your way, if you miss the shot just roll wings-level and disengage, he can't do a damn thing about it.
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The level of aggresivenss is also dependent on your shooting ability. One thing the really good players can all do is shoot amazingly well. I can't shoot for beans, so I have to play accoringly. Torque in his C-Hog is one of the best shooters ever to play AH, and that's why he was so deadly. If you are a crack shot, you can fly for snapshots very aggresively and it's extremely difficult to deny your attacker a snapshot at some point in a fight. The trick is, you can't be quite that aggressive in going for the snapshots unless you are flying a bird that can kill with a snap, and you are a good enough shot to connect a high percentage of the time. Practice your gunnery, and know your own limits. The reason guys like Nath, Cit, etc. are so deadly is that if you give them even one snapshot opportunity, you are most likely toast. Just realise that if you are not that great a shot or are flying a plane that can't do good damage with a snapshot, you may have to rachet down the aggressiveness a bit... you may have to be patient and fly for tracking shots. If in doubt, you want to be more aggressive and as unpredictable as you can be without doing dumb things. :)
Above all, if you go hard aggressive and MISS that snapshot, you need to know when and how to get the heck out of there before you get killed. I fly the Jug a lot, so if I'm fighting a Spit IX from a position of advantage, I can often burn my E advantage for a snapshot opportunity... but the hard part is realising if I've missed that shot that I'm no longer at an advantage and must escape or die. It's a fine line. :)
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Ok from the description of Urchin and Mauser, i think nothing is wrong with my flying.
Actually what Urchin described is what i most often do against a lone spit.
Attack with speed, keep fast, use the vertikal to track him.
And you, lephturn hit the point why i lately could throw AH out of the window.
I have from any data i can get the best con ever to AH. An average ping of 185ms and not spikes in variance and queue time. Also no package loss.
Those figures really look wonderful to me (compared with the past), but about 80% of my missed snapshot go to lag issues, same with about 75% of my deaths.
By reading this thread, i think my continuing frustration with AH in the last month, is not skills related but connection related.
I see it this way now, i am doing everything right, but success is denied by pure troubles of connection.
So what i will do now, is give AH one more month to see if the things are getting better, if not i got to leave, cause it really is frustrating if fun is ruined by pure technical troubles.
Edit: This morning again a day of ridculous lag and extrem gameplay troubles. It is just so that you can laugh, actually AH has at the moment nothing from a sim or even an arcade shooter. It would make no difference if i would fly blind, cause i cant even trust my eyes.
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punt
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GREAT THREAD!!!
The 190A5 is my favorite ride in the MA. In the beginning in H2H I often flew the 109G10. Urchin you said the 109G10 turns better than the 190A5. I'm not sure but I doubt that this is right. Neither in an initial turn nor in a sustained turn I have the feeling that the 109G10 turns better (it's a feeling not my knowledge).
I fly the 190A5 agressive and most often I could turn about 180° with N1K and Spit 9 if my speed is about 250 - 300mph. This leaves me the opportunity to get in pursuit and sometimes in lead persuit and kill the bogey or get a good snap shot if the enemy changes direction. Also I most often have an escape window that leaves me with the enemy behind at d800 but less energy than me.
The 190D9 I try to fly very unagressive and mature but to be honest with much much lesser success (my flying in it is a flop :D ) as the 190A5.
I'm curious about flying the 109G2 which will be my next ride.
Thanks for all the good information.
To you Naudet: What connection do u use? I've no problems with lag and are very few cons that are warping. I live in Bremen and use TDSL. Maybe it's ur system thats slow?
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Naudet, aggresiveness is a key factor to kill "good" spit drivers with the D9, else you are playing their game.
Basically, a good spit driver will not follow you in the vertical when you have a noticeable E advantage over him. He will level, or even dive a bit trying to keep above 250 mph and waiting for you to come back. If you dive over that Spit, before you get into the 1k range he will turn really fast near or in the corner speed range and you will have 2 hispanos pointing at your nose. If you evade and repeat the hi-E attack, he will repeat the defense til your WEP goes off. At this point you are a dead flying plane. The good spit pilots will follow you when they feel like having a chance to catch you. So, you must fight in the edge of the E advantage cutting as much room as possible with the vertical pursuer. If you have a lot of E advantage, better use it in a tight spiral climb than just extending too much in the vertical. If you decide to go pure vertical will all that E advantage, be ready to cut your climb just when the spit starts pointing anywhere but your six cone instead of continuing in the vertical trying to maximize your E advantage. Learn well the average time you need to invert in the vertical and the time the spit can keep hung in the vertical pointing at you before thinking in the reversal.
And dont engange with spits above 25k or they will eat you alive even if you come from 30k.
Against the spits, you rarely will have a clear dead six shot (unless afk or target-fixated), so be ready to master the snap shooting. My advice is not to use the D9 sight at all. Configure a key to activate a view with your head in an elevated poss so that your tracers will pass just over the sight mounting at 300-350 yards. Use this view when tracking and shooting evading spits.
The best tip I can give to any D9 pilot trying to learn how to fight the spits is just to engange every spit your encounter below 25k. No matter if u dead to these hispanos 100 times in a row, just keep enganging til you are able to judge the E state of any spit near u, at this point u will start to killing them one after another.
More tips (in spanish) about D9 at:
http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/
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Duedel, i am also connecting via T-DSL and i think the is the most crapy ISP ever able to play a major role in communications.
I will look that i can get the money together to move on the Q-DSL.
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punt
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sorry, I just wanted to bring this to the top for easier reading.
-Sikboy
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There is no word about YAK nor Typhoon .. i will have to do something about that :D
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WOW,
To think I usually don't read this forum...
Now that I have some insight to the guys' tactics that kill me the most efficiently, I'll at least have a leg up on figuring out the why part.
nice thread.
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Originally posted by Duedel
GREAT THREAD!!!
Neither in an initial turn nor in a sustained turn I have the feeling that the 109G10 turns better than the 190A5 (it's a feeling not my knowledge).
Does someone have data about this?
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No data here either but I have the same feeling that the 109G10 doesnt turn as well as the A5.
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Great thread...now if anyone can give me some pointers in how to make my accuracy go up that would be great...have great connection and 60-75 frame rates...pings aroung 60 or so all the time.....so any tips on gunnery would be appreciated.
TG12
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What plane are you flying, what convergence do you use, and what ranges are you firing at? Also, what happens when you shoot at somebody... what shots are you taking and missing, and describe what is happening when you miss.
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A great thread, and thanks to all.
Never fail to remember that almost all fights here on Aces High, even ones that start out as one versus one, end up with multiple planes involved. Concentrating on how to counter that one plane you started with, can get you killed.
Situation Awareness wins most fights in Aces High.
Know your planes strengths and weakness, and most of all have SA.
Never dive into a furball, unless you know exactly how you are going to get out, and in which direction that will be.
Ranger Bob
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Well been flying the P38 and the Spitty....F6F sometimes as well.
Convergence on teh P38 set at max due to forward firing nose guns. Spitty and F6F around 3-400...usually around 300.
Just seems when I shoot I miss...have trouble getting stable behind the guy...usually I have the nose put infront of the dude while we are in a turn. bullets tend to go long.
Thats about it....im not a bad shot just need practice I guess.
Mike
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Originally posted by Eaglecz
There is no word about YAK nor Typhoon .. i will have to do something about that :D
I usually fly the 190A5 or 190D9 (occasionally the 109G10). I have found through painful experience, to respect the Yak. Don't get caught in a turn fight with it and watch it because it can climb fairly well (not nearly as well as a D9 or G10, but pretty good). The Yak also seems to dive extremely well and since it has limited ammo, most of the pilots who fly it are pretty decent shots! I have had the best luck using the standard tactics of bouncing it from on high and then extending, climbing slightly to get good position again.
I haven't figured out how to counter a Typhoon or Tempest yet. Any advice on how to do it in a 190A5 or 190D9 would be nice.
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Originally posted by guttboy
Well been flying the P38 and the Spitty....F6F sometimes as well.
Convergence on teh P38 set at max due to forward firing nose guns. Spitty and F6F around 3-400...usually around 300.
Just seems when I shoot I miss...have trouble getting stable behind the guy...usually I have the nose put infront of the dude while we are in a turn. bullets tend to go long.
Thats about it....im not a bad shot just need practice I guess.
Mike
Try increasing the Damping on your Rudder Input... This works especially well with the P-38... You can tinker with it and the 38 will become the most stable weapons platform in the game... If you are using a Microsoft joystick with a twist stick for rudder, you may want to add a little increase in deadband for Rudder input also...
BOOT
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LOL
I just realized that was you TG12....
Never mind.... We already had this discussion...
:)
BOOT
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LOL....thanks BOOT.....
I have used your stick inputs and have found them to be pretty good.....helping alot actually....just gotta keep up the practice.....
thanks again....
TG:)
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I think torque was easily the best shot I've ever seen in AH. I think for a certain level of pilot the whole issue becomes one of finding a guns solution. relative E state and angles don't matter except as a targeting variable...I swear torque used to have that C-hog rotating like a turret...all he was looking for was a 10th of a second or so. I'd love to know how those guys manage the views...I miss those shots 90% of the time. I'm off by just a bit as the nose gets around.
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And so my training manual grows another 6 pages. If anyone wants the better parts in a Word format, numbered pages with a nice little Aces High banner logo on the first page, shoot an email to me at twhigham@tampabay.rr.com and I'll send you my file.
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I have just begun to fly Luftwaffe planes. I have pretty much mastered my E management. I only fly the 190A5 really. This is a great plane, I love it. Great perk points. Can turn fairly well. Great WEP and great speed. Might switch from my general F6F and F4U's to 190's and 109's :). I don't really like the 109's that much though. Like Urchin said you really need to keep up your speed or your screwed. I have pretty much commanded that, so Luftwaffe planes are great for me to fly!
~BlueiceJ~
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Don't forget the roll rate of the p-51 has, a good scissors will at least prevent a shot against a b'n'zing fighter, if i'm starting to loose @ slower speeds a diving scissors seems to work pretty good unless they have great snap-shot ability. In the dive the 51 is building speed it can then hang on to for an extension, and unless he's paying good attention a superior acceleration will give the chance to force an overshoot.
Sans overshoot enough dive time will get the 51 faster than just about anything else and you have your extension with the 51's better speed retention.
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Originally posted by Urchin
OK, well, I am tired of typing. I'll cover the A8 and the rest of the 109s a little later, after my fingers have rested.
bla bla Urchin
i dont belive you ... you werent tired... i think that you should speak about fight versus Yak, Tiffie in 190 and we both know, that 190 is dead meal :D
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good stuff
thanks
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This thread has been more informative than anything else I have tried including personal training in the TA... with squaddies..
Prior to this thread I never really messed with the 109.
Then when the Sicily Scenario came around I was assigned a 109g2... I thought I was doomed... lol
I now fly the 109g6 in the MA a whole lot...
I am beginning to love that plane... The 109g6 is a great Pony (P51) Killer... I have had some really great fights one on one against ponies and other 109's
This has added a dimension to the game that I never could really enjoy before. I am still addicted to my P-38 but flying the 109 has really aided my flying ability when I am in my P-38 also...
Great stuff in this thread... Keep it coming Gents...
Salute
BOOT
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I just started flying the 109G2 as a diversion from my usual 190A5/D9. The 109G2 seems to be the epitaph of 109s: better speed than the earlier versions, yet it still can hold it's own in an angles fight. The G2 also seems to compress later than the later 109ers.
About the snapshots: I find myself in the following scenario often: You're approaching an enemy at high closure, and just as you switch to lead pursuit for aiming, he pulls a tighter turn than you can muster. Then, trying to put my nose into his flight path in a blackout hi-jojo, I'll fire a burst that normally produces some hits. This will be my last tur before going vertical for another approach.
The best method for obtaing a good sapshot for me is aimiig ahead of the target at a distace of about 500 yards.
Alsp keep in mind the time of flight of the bullets: 500 yards will take a MG 151/20 about .75 seconds to reach... but even at it's rather slow muzzle velocity, it'll shreck up an opponent real good :)
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:D
I am still trying to learn... this has been great guys. Thanks and cudo's to those of you that take the time to share with us fluff'n dweebs ( actually I dream of getting achieving fluff'n dweeb status. It would be better than where I am)
Cyas up..... I ain't giving up yet..... coming to the CON. hope to see you there.
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Only comments I'd add, as someone who is NOT a great killer (I'm not a good shot) but that can handle the planes fairly well are..
1. Since coming to Aces High, I've seen a LOT of attempted HO attacks when flying fighters. People literally just pointing their plane at me as if just doing that will nail me. WRONG. You'll have to ask one of the better fighter pilots that is also good at explaining these things, but even if you have alt advantage, then if I see you coming it's no great trick to either (a) point my nose at you so we HO each other - which makes things no more skilful than Russia Roulette or (b) (my preference) to side-step your attack and turn one way or another so that I have a fair chance of ending up on your tail, or at least, in not quite so bad a situation a I was before you tried to bounce me.
You need to think ahead a bit, think the angles, and get where you can shoot at me but I cannot shoot at you - on my tail or beam, or belly. And decide whether you're going to lead me to take a shot at me or trail me to try to get right on my 6.
2. Strangely, cosidering the amount of HO'ing I've encountered whilst in fighters, I've seen almost none when flying a bomber. The best place to attack most bombers from is from slightly high 12 - and that includes Ju88s. Attack me from my 6, and I'll throw my Ju88 around whilst blasting you with everything I've got - and I can handle a bit of damage better than you can. Exceptions are known blind spots - like underneath a Lancaster - and the more agile US bombers with heavy frontal armament (B26). Takes a long time to overtake a bomber to get into position for a HO or front quarter pass? Yes, it can, but you're more likely to survive the encounter and land those perk points, too.
3. E-fighting might get boring, but you have to decide what kind of flying you want to be good at. If you want to fly in as realistic a maner as possible, then flying to survive is more important than flying to get kills. If you lve long enough you'll get kills now and then anyway. If all you are interested in is killing as many foe as possible irrespective of what happens to yourself, then you might as well get stuck in no matter what and HO at every opportunity. Even Saburo Sakai, the Japanese ace who flew mostly A6M's said that managing your energy state is important even in an A6M - that stuff isn't just for late-war uber-rides.
4. Teamwork. Working well as a team makes a bunch of pilots considerably more dangerous to the foe than is the case if theyre all lone-wolfing it. Join a unit that like to fly a a team and that practices it.
Finally, some of us just have to accept that we won't ever be great virtual fighter pilots. The trick then is to work out how you can be most help to your chums in a fight. Once I accepted that my role within any bunch of fighters is generally to be one of the ones that ties up one or more enemy long enough that one of my chums can shoot them off my tail (rest of the time I just try scaring folk off of friendly tails), I started feeling less frustrated with my inability to get kills very often. I know I've gotten about as good as I'm ever likely to get in fighters. Nowadays I tend to fly fighters as a bit of relaxation from the perils of flying bombers... :-}
But if you've got what it takes to become more than mediocre, and can put in the time to study and practice to get better at using fighters, then good luck (unless you're sneaking up on a Ju88 that is ;-) )!
Esme
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Nicely said!
It's funny that some can fly like the wind and do very well in the game, some kill fer points, others fly to not die, some assist squads, re-supply, and do lowly goonin.., others fly like they playing gameboy..lol.
I like to keep learning the game, flying with squaddies, and listening to the pros that are successful with flying well. To those that fly, get kills on ya with good moves and then take a second to help an aces-wanna-be like me.
Looking forward to going to the Dallas Con. Place a face with the moniker.
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Originally posted by Esme
3. E-fighting might get boring, but you have to decide what kind of flying you want to be good at. If you want to fly in as realistic a maner as possible, then flying to survive is more important than flying to get kills. If you lve long enough you'll get kills now and then anyway. If all you are interested in is killing as many foe as possible irrespective of what happens to yourself, then you might as well get stuck in no matter what and HO at every opportunity. Even Saburo Sakai, the Japanese ace who flew mostly A6M's said that managing your energy state is important even in an A6M - that stuff isn't just for late-war uber-rides.
I just want to point out that E-fighting is more than just Boom N Zoom. All air combat is E-fighting really, but we often use the term to refer to styles of air combat that rely on energy more than turning performance to get the job done. That's a far cry from simple Boom N Zoom from a position of advantage. While it's true than BnZ from an advantage is likely the safest way to get kills, it can get a bit boring. Proper E-fighting, what I call E Kinfe Fighting, is more exciting and more fun. It's not as safe, but being able to truly E fight in close is what makes an Ace in my book. Always E fight... but you don't have to BnZ to do it. :)
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punt
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I have a fairly good idea of what you mean here, (riding the stall horn in an E fight with my 51D) but a little more expliation of the term E-Knife fighting would be helpful.
Thanks in advance
Pony
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Originally posted by Eaglecz
There is no word about YAK nor Typhoon .. i will have to do something about that :D
yeah, most LW planes stand no chance against a tiffy, though i have been jumped by mandoble more than once......
i have never flown LW planes in my 18 month stint in AH, but i do know they make nice targets :)
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Originally posted by Pony6
I have a fairly good idea of what you mean here, (riding the stall horn in an E fight with my 51D) but a little more expliation of the term E-Knife fighting would be helpful.
Thanks in advance
Pony
Basically, I just me E fighting without ever going beyond about D1.2 range from the other guy. E fighting in terms of maintaining E, using lag pursuit, and whittling your opponents energy down so you can kill him.... without zooming away or extending. In an E-Knife fight, the farthest you get away from your opponent will be when he flat turns and you go vertical to maintain your E with a loop or a high yoyo. The close-in E Knife Fighter stays more aggressive than somebody doing BnZ or extending, keeps the pressure on and looks to force a mistake. The trick to this kind of E fighting is to maintain your advantage and position until you get an opportunity for a shot, then burn some of that E advantage for a kill shot. This works best in planes with good power loading, good guns, and good instantaneous turn rate. It also helps if the plane is fast so you can escape if you screw up and miss the one or two shots you'll get in this sort of fight. The really tricky part is realizing when you've lost that advantage and need to get the heck out of dodge.
It's the most rewarding sort of air combat for me. That's why I choose to fly the Jug... there is nothing more fun for me in AH than using close in E fighting techniques to kill "better" planes. :)
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This is classic stuff.
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Originally posted by Naudet
Dead Man, what u describe as aggressiveness is the way i die much to often. To me it seems it exactly what will put me infront of the guns of my tgt.
Anyway were i try to reverse without having D2.0+ will result in my death. Only if the other guy is a real dumb one, this will be the outcome.
In an FW190-A8, I never turn more than a quarter-turn, and never reverse with less than d2.0. I never sacrifice common sense for the sake of aggression. I engage when I have an advantage, and disengage when I don't. Sometimes it is good to extend beyond d2.0, to look for incoming bandits and make sure you know the airplanes around you.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
What plane are you flying, what convergence do you use, and what ranges are you firing at? Also, what happens when you shoot at somebody... what shots are you taking and missing, and describe what is happening when you miss.
I've been flying the FW190A8 a lot lately. My usual guns package is the four 20mm cannons in the wings with the 13mm MGs in the cowl (if I'm going to fly with anything less, then I might as well use the 190F8 or 190A5 that have better flight characteristics). With this arrangement, the A8 will win most of the HOs it encounters against other fighters, though the Me110 and Mosquito can be a problem since they don't have the convergence problems that wing-gun planes do.
I usually fire at d400 or less. The few times I will shoot at farther ranges is if I'm at my target's dead-6'oclock and he's trying to outrun me.
The FW190A8 can be very effective at killing LA-7s, even though the LA-7s are faster, turn better, and generally perform better at ACM. The trick is to enter the fight at a faster speed than the LA-7 so that he can't outrun you and must turn to be evasive. At faster speeds, the 190 and LA-7 are on equal grounds in a turn, and since your 190 is attacking, it has the advantage of being on the offensive. The 190 also has a bigger ammo load and more guns, so you can take low-percentage shots with no real penalty. But- you must get him on your first pass because if he crosses farther than 20 degrees off your nose, you should look to get out of the fight and radio for help.
I won't tell you my convergence settings - that's a trade secret!
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Thanks for the punt as this really is good stuff. I've been flying AH for about 2 months now and I've been sort of floundering in many planes. The other day I jumped in a 190A8. I chose it for the guns mostly. I thought that if I'd be BnZing that the few shots I get on a con better count for something. Well, 8 kills later I'm in love. I agree with BOOT (
) that flying a plane like this makes you better at most planes. I mean I knew my turning was molasses, so I just kept high and tried to pluck off the weak ones one by one.
It was funny, actually, I was flying CAP over an enemy base with some squaddies. Squaddies got shot down as resistance got a little thicker. I was being toyed with by two Spits. i knew I had a slight speed edge and that I could dive better, so every time one got close to my six, I would dive and extend. They would follow me for far too long though. But I would turn to meet when I had enough d, then repeat until a squaddie came to back me up on this one Spit. The spit broke off me as we extended, I rolled up and sort of flopped over to the left. As my nose came under the horizon again I had a glimpse of his topside. Four pings with the 30s and 20s is all it took for him.
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bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I checked out the MS CFS3 site out of curiosity today - but after having read this thread, I am humbled. MS - you can STUFF your fancy graphics.
There can be no way that CFS, or any other sim, offers the same in depth gameplay and dedicated tacticians with such a community spirit as exists in AH.
One thing I would like to know - has an assesment been done by veterans or current warbird pilots on how all these plane handling charcteristics match up to the real machines? (would'nt that be something - fighting against a REAL ace!)
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There are some WW2 vets that play. A couple anyway. I'm not sure if they have ever done a comparison. I know Robert Shaw plays occasionally, I had the pleasure of meeting him at this years Convention.
From the reading I've done, the planes seem to match up well. One thing you do have to remember though, is that a lot of us are more skill at flying our 'virtual planes' than real pilots were at flying the real thing, so that can skew the results.
Overall, I think Aces High is the most accurate rendition of WW2 air combat ever made.
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Training manual in txt format using Urchin's posts culled from various threads, spelling and punctuation more or less corrected. Enjoy!
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Well guys if you would like to know from a real fighter pilot.....Hawk1 was a Korean War Fighter Pilot and a VietNam Fighter pilot. He commanded the last TIGER COMMANDO F-5 Squadron that was in Vietnam during that war. We have some information posted on him at http://www.combathanger.com
Cyall in the air....:D
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Hi, Guttboy.
Visiting the Combat hanger, and seeing your Tiger (Grrrr!) rang a bell with me because I am part of a real NATO Tiger Squadron. Would your online Sqn have any interest in becoming affiliated to the NATO Tigers? (Looking at your occupation, maybe you already are!)
Lecter
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Hiya Dr lecter,
In what way would you propose affiliation? You must remember we are true to the ROOKS!....lol...Let me know what you are thinking!
TG12:D
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Go to http://www.natotigers.org to find out what NATO Tigers are all about.
Sqns with a tiger as their emblem are banded together by this association and one sqn (in roation) holds an annual Tiger Meet, mostly jets attending, but with the odd helicopter Sqn, and there are also the occassional 'mini-meets'. Theres a good mix of ac, typically F16, Mirage F1, Tornado etc.
What do we do? A mixture of flying and social events. There may be scope for your Sqn to make it's mark in some way, but I don't want to divert this thread too much. Email me at mcauley.cooke@virgin.net if I can be of help further.
Regards,
Dr Lecter
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*punt*
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I've been flying the 109G6 with 30mm cannon over the holiday break and I'm impressed with the firepower it can dish out. It'll climb real well with WEP but the turning performance is weakened with all that weight in the nose. Still, 1 hit from the 30mm will knock down a fighter, 2 hits will knock down a medium bomber, 3 will take out a larger bomber. Best tactic is to use it as a BnZ fighter. Climb to 20k and make sure that all of your attacks are made from the top going down on your target, then using autoclimb to get back up because you'll probably be pretty close to compression if you dive more than 3,000 feet or so.
The shells are slow moving and ROF is pretty low, so get in close, give it plenty of lead, and only fire the 30mm - no real need to waste your 13mm MG ammo when the 30mm will knock down a plane with 1 to 3 hits, so save the 13mm for the low-percentage snapshots where you're just trying to puncture a radiator or knock off a flap.
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In my opinion the 109G6 makes for a poor BnZ fighter. What I do is "E-fight" in it. You stay above your target if at all possible (it helps to start with an E advantage if you want to do it on Spits), and wait for your opponent to give you a chance. When he does, you drop down onto his six and stick there. If it is against a Spit it is OK to do a couple rolls in a rolling scissors if you think you'll get a shot out of it. Against just about anything else tho, you are dropping down on his 6 to stay there, not to BnZ.
You won't usually get more than about 1,000 meters from your target after the initial opening 'zoom' (and I sometimes don't even zoom, I come around hard over the top and see what happens from there). It is form of dogfighting, just not your typical circle-fight. Or rather, picture a 109 making vertical circles (i.e. loops of various sizes), and using Hi yoyos and such until he can drop back down into the horizontal plane behind his opponent.
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bump
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(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/images/109g6.gif)
All 109s are best flown as Energy fighters - using its high climb rate to dictate the engagement. Normal Boom & Zoom tactics with very high speed passes do not suit the 109's style. It is better suited to the style of energy combat where the main objective is to set up a moderate altitude advantage right over or near the target. Then use short sprint dives with moderate closure rates for gun passes. The 109 can then climb back out and loop or climb away as necessary.
My squad primarily flies the 109g6. Its not a BnZ plane. Like all 109s it has decent climb and great rudder authority. It has a decent instanious turn rate that added with some rudder can allow toget inside a breaking plane for quick shot. Its important to land these shots though or if you miss and overshoot you will wind up dead.
All 109's, regardless of version, share numerous traits:
Excellent climb rate
Good rudder response
Excellent performance between 12 and 22k
Above average low speed handling
Good negative-G handling
Good Acceleration
Below Average visibility from the cockpit
Not particularly "new pilot friendly"
Moderate to low ammunition supply
Heavy Controls above 640km/h
Mediocre durability
The 109-G6 is a mediocre fighter at best. At the hands of an experienced pilot it can hold its own. The 109G-6 is not going to compete with the Spitfire at low altitude and will get plum ate up in a stallfight. The G6 still retains two of the biggest strengths of all the 109's - its climb rate and its service ceiling. These traits alone have limited utility in the main arena, but is very useful in events and scenarios. The G6 can climb fairly well, but not nearly as well as the 109g10. The g2 is slightly faster and climbs a bit better. What the g6 gives you over the g2 is the mk 108 3cm cannon. This cannon alone is enough to pick the g6 over the g2.
You want to stick to energy fighting in the g6. Dogfighting will get you killed quick. Of all the 109s the g6 really needs to be flown with a wingman. The 109-G6 pilot has to choose his engagements carefully, and watch his energy level carefully when confronting planes of superior performance. The 109-G6 can use its one great asset - climb rate. Use the your climb rate not only to outmaneuver other planes in combat, but also to elude other planes when necessary.
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Sorry, just punting this for easier reference.
-Sik
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Terrific thread. How many kills can the best achieve with these LW rides in one sortie without rearming?
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Originally posted by Halo
Terrific thread. How many kills can the best achieve with these LW rides in one sortie without rearming?
My best is 4 kills in a 109F4 with gondolas, and I still had ammo. I was rtb'ing because I was low on gas and got run down from behind by a Typhoon.
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Punting this great thread for the Newbies.
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Originally posted by NHattila
yeah, most LW planes stand no chance against a tiffy, though i have been jumped by mandoble more than once......
i have never flown LW planes in my 18 month stint in AH, but i do know they make nice targets :)
Coincidently thats exactly how we feel vs tiffies and allies planes :) :) :) :) ... they dont stand a little chance against us!!! :rofl
Good luck !!! Wespe
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Even after two years this thread is a great refresher.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
I just want to point out that E-fighting is more than just Boom N Zoom. All air combat is E-fighting really, but we often use the term to refer to styles of air combat that rely on energy more than turning performance to get the job done. That's a far cry from simple Boom N Zoom from a position of advantage. While it's true than BnZ from an advantage is likely the safest way to get kills, it can get a bit boring. Proper E-fighting, what I call E Kinfe Fighting, is more exciting and more fun. It's not as safe, but being able to truly E fight in close is what makes an Ace in my book. Always E fight... but you don't have to BnZ to do it. :)
Yes, BnZ is just an example of an Energy Fighting tactic, "roping" is another pure Energy Fighting tactic. Energy Fighting is generally considered the opposite of angles fighting. The point of Energy Fighting is to employ manuevers that act to conserve your E state while at the same time bleeding the enemy of his E, but not necessarily provide you with an 'immediate' gunnery solution. The end result of most engagements of this sort is the person with the least E is unable to deny the person with the greater E a gunnery solution. Evasives and counter-moves require E. I'm sure most can relate to the feeling of being left 'hanging' in air while your opponent, with now superior E, comes around to pick you helplessly out of the sky.
Angles fighting, on the other hand, seeks to gain lead on an enemy in order to have an 'angle' for a shot irrespective of the energy lost in doing so. Often, in AW especially, I remember pilots such as Subby that would immediately get her P38 as slow as possible, blowing most of her E and dropping flaps so she could whip around inside your manuever for an immediate lead angle and a shot. This is a very good example of 'angles' fighting, the sacrafice of energy for angle.
Obviously, some planes are better suited to one style or the other. I would not want to 'angles' fight in a Fw190-A8 in most situations. Similiarly, I would probably not want to Energy Fight, in the classic sense, in a Hurricane. But, there are alot of aircraft that are conducive to either style or a mix of the two, like the P38, F6F, SpitIX, most of the 109s and the Russian sub-setof planes. If I were learning Air Combat Sims for the first time, I would probably choose a plane that could swing both ways so as to learn both styles at once with minimal frustration of having to understand the nuances of more than one aircraft initially. In reality, the difference between the two styles is largely semantic, the line between the two blurs during typical engagements.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Angles fighting, on the other hand, seeks to gain lead on an enemy in order to have an 'angle' for a shot irrespective of the energy lost in doing so. Often, in AW especially, I remember pilots such as Subby that would immediately get her P38 as slow as possible, blowing most of her E and dropping flaps so she could whip around inside your manuever for an immediate lead angle and a shot. This is a very good example of 'angles' fighting, the sacrafice of energy for angle.
Zazen
Actually, of the LW planes the 190A5/A8 are the best for that particular type of angles fighting. The 109's don't have enough firepower to score a kill reliably after you've dumped off all of your energy getting in position.
When I fly a 190, I'm typically doing the above. If I'm fighting vs a Spit, I can usually determine after the first merge whether or not I'll have a shot by the second. If the answer is yes, I'm dumping speed as fast as I can, if not I'm diving to set up for a re-merge once I get about 1-1.2K of seperation. When you fly that way in the 190 though, you always have to be sure to go nose to nose with your opponent (i.e., let your opponent 'cross your tail' at the merge, or turn AWAY from him while he turns into you, or vice versa). This is because a 190 doing 250 mph will have a smaller turning circle than a Spit doing 350, but it will still take longer to get around that circle, so you have to let the Spit do the work for you and fly in front of you.
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figured this could use a punt, and maybe an AHII update.
-Sik
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Yes, an AH2 update would be nice. And an inclusion of the 109E!!!
In AH2 I've gotten at least 3 streaks of 2-kills in the 109E (realistic ammo, 1.x fuel burn). Downing a 109G-x and among other things wounding a temp.
The 109E is not "out of the fight" just because others fly spits and whatnot. I've downed spit I's, V's, and XIVs in the 109E in various AH2 situations (HTH mostly, varying arena settings)
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HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why you 2 (Urchin and Wotan) hold this kinda of info from your squadmates:p
Good stuff fellas S! :D
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BTW
Luftwaffe iron is junk! :eek: :p :D
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Time for a bump
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With the recent news that the 190's will be given the next facelift, gonna give this a bump, as well as Urchin's other post on the A8.
mauser
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For god's sake don't bump these things. Half of what they say simply DOESN'T apply to AH2.