Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandman on January 23, 2002, 07:32:32 PM
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In the last few months, I've discovered that the quickest way to slow down for landing is to simply use the rudder and cross control the ailerons to keep the nose pointed somewhat in the direction I want to go.
It seems to me that I'm gaming the game by using the rudder as a brake.
Or... is this realistic?
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Yes it is realistic. It's called a forward slip. I use it in RL if my approach is to high. You're actually using the side of your fuselage as the break, by putting it into the wind you are causing alot of drag.
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I get it. It's not the rudder that's inducing the drag, it's the fuselage.
I feel better now.
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You mean there are other ways to slow down??? I almost always use a heafty dose of slide slip to slow down and land.
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I ususally use left rudder and roll right, but you can do the oposite. Use the airlerons to control drift. Be careful though, you can drop like a rock. Make sure you keep up airspeed with pitch, as per usual.
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Well... before I discovered this, I used to simply do a series of break turns.
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Yeah, this slows you down.
But...
You shouldn't really have to do this to land and almost all of us do it routinely.
Seems to me, these planes just don't slow down on approach the way they should. Just my humble opinon.
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i fly the 109 half in a forward slip almost all the time due to compression probs.
i also fly the 109 wearing a half-slip but that's another issue...
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I use it routinely because I tend to come into the pattern way fast and high. This would happen with almost any airplane that's reasonably clean. I've found that when I get full flaps in, in most planes, the thing comes down like a rock once you get it slowed to around 110-120 IAS. But, as Toad said, this is just my opinion :) With this game i like to come in fast and kill my speed right at the end, to save time. Not exactly a stabilized approach, but it keeps your vulnerable time to a minimum.
On a side note, I rode along with a guy in a M20R who wanted to show me how fast he could do an approach. Started about 4 miles out and 2000 feet over pattern altitude. He wanted to prove that he didnt need spoilers also. As a result, I stared in horror as the cylinder head temperature plummeted, as he was diving with power off at about 190 kts toward the downwind. He probably took 200 hours off of that engine. Well, what else would you expect from a brand new CFII? ;)
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Yeah, mrfish - whenever I dive a 109, I cross the controls to control my speed. But I wear pants when I do it.
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CJ. I'm betting it wasn't his airplane, correct? :)
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the game is kionda wierd in this regard. inducing sideslip without a corresponding change in angle of attack to maintain 1g of lift should result in only altitude loss but no change in velocity.
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The Ar-234 is a beotch to slow down, but if you drop full flaps and gear while in a full slip she will come down almost like a helicopter at around 110 mph. ;)
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I use slide slip (rudder as a kind of brake) a lot, but also use another method on a regular basis. Learned about it in the book "Stick & Rudder". It doesn't really have a name, so I call it "Mush/stall glidepath control". Maybe it's better described as a "falling leaf" approach. It's different from sideslips in that you maintain runway heading, while in sideslip you usually approach at an oblique angle, and have to recover (align with runway) in time to touch down correctly.
Here's how it works. You're approaching the runway with too much alt. First, get lined up with the runway, then kill the throttle and pull the nose back until your airspeed drops to the point at which you can lower the flaps and gear. Lower them, as usual. Now, keep enough back pressure to allow the airspeed to continue bleeding off, relaxing it slightly when you're just about at stall speed for the configuration you're in. You'll hear the stall warning for the rest of the landing. While keeping aligned on runway heading, maintain near-stall speed (constant back pressure). If you sense a stall break coming, push forward just barely enough to prevent the break. You will be in extreme, controlled slow-flight, with the aircraft descending very fast, with minimum ground speed. It's almost like riding an elevator down. Keep looking forward, making small heading corrections as necessary. When you feel that you're getting very close to where you should be thinking about flaring out, push the nose forward slightly, both to arrest the rapid rate of descent (add a touch of power, if necessary) and to see where you are in relation to the runway threshhold. From here, land the plane as you usually do.
Once you learn how to do this, it's kind of fun, and probably looks pretty cool to anybody watching what you're doing. Still, 80% of the time I use side-slip.
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Toad remember minimum drag speed on these planes is pretty low. You have to get below that speed to get them to slow down nicely. If you slow down in level flight before descending it really helps.
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Toad,
Nope, it was one of Western Michigan University's planes. CFI's at the school get a certian number of hours to maintain currency, and he was using his to hot-dog around...
No wonder they have to charge 210/hr for the planes.
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A Run'n'Break will set you up nicely for the landing...and about just as quickly as having to do a slow descent with break turns and slips.
Daff
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I agree with Toad, these a/c take a little to long to slow down, even in a slip. And has anyone else noticed that you barely, I mean barely have to crack the throttle back open to maintain alt or climb once you have slowed down to near stall speed, wether clean or in full landing config? I know if I get behind the curve the least little bit in the real world it usually takes quite a bit of power to get the a/c back into a 'safe' approach speed. Just seems like HT has the power response of the throttle a little to bit fast and should take a bit more throttle to the a/c back into a safe approach.
ts
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I've used the sideslip/cross controled landing routinely fer years here, trimmed nose high and blipping the throttle to control the descent. Kills the speed nicely, and gives me a much better view of the runway past the edge of the nose. Works well fer cv landings too. It's best not be in still dangling in the air over the runway below minimum controllable air airpeed tho.. the stall is harsh with a (duh) significant roll componet.
I've noted that when i feather the prop on a dead stick I can trim out a super LOD and with the prop stopped dead i can glide like a Grob. Spectacular performance fer A/C with the power off areodynamics of a cinder block. I an't griping tho... I like sailplanes. ;)
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Originally posted by Daff
A Run'n'Break will set you up nicely for the landing...and about just as quickly as having to do a slow descent with break turns and slips.
Daff
Could you describe it, Daff? I haven't a clue...
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Sandman:
I have been told that this method is also called "crabbing".
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Run'n'Break sounds like what we call "break over the numbers". Line up with runway hot and clean at about 1k. As you pass over the "numbers" (the end of the runway) cut power and 3-4g turn one way or the other. Configure flaps and gear as speed bleeds off, one 360 to touch down. Looks cooler than watermelon with four ships in echelon, timing the "break" to one or two seconds between ships. Also work well on carrier landings, and is the method used in RL.
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This is my favorite topic ever. I had no idea thet landing could be so interesting. I must have spent 2 hours practicing these landings offline. Too bad my ACM or aim doesn't seem to improve as fast. Thanks to everyone for landing tips.
-Sikboy
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Biggles. I think you'll find that if you combine the method you described with the 'cross controls' that you will drop like a rock.
I do this quite often to reduce re-up time.
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You approach the runway at medium/high speed. Halfway down the runway, cut throttle, break in a slightly climbing hard turn. As you turn downwind, drop flaps and gear as necessary and you'll be ready for turning downwind to land.
Daff
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Yep. The falling leaf approach. Just get the plane really slow and behind the best L/D airspeed instead of above it. Just above stall works great, but sometimes it's necessary to gain a little speed just before the flare since you'll be coming down really fast, and just above stall. If you try to kill your rate of decent, you'll stall. A little throttle, or just letting a little speed build before you need to flare works, but gaining more speed will increase our rate of decent momentarily, so be prepared. Also, throwing in a foward slip in this situation works well, just as long as you don't exceed the critical angle of attack (stall). A couple of airports i've flown into necessitate getting a really steep angle of decent in order to clear obstacles, and this is an OK way to do it. I don't like to make these kind of approaches though because you're so slow that the control authority isn't too great, and if anything upsets the plane, you might have trouble recovering. I may be a psycho when i fly in the arena, but when I fly in real life, I'm a chicken.
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Originally posted by mrfish
i also fly the 109 wearing a half-slip but that's another issue...
Good God! Man, don't ya know there are women and children that frequent this BBS?
Think of all the innocent minds you've ruined with that mental image!