Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 7SinS on January 24, 2002, 09:06:12 AM
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He He tac and the lads after a hop over rook territory(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p38-39.jpg) :D
Hit em' hard and fast
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ROFLMAO!!!
"Twin jet engined devils" after training session:
"Ok guys, that went good, next time we'll learn how to takeoff effectively, dismiss!" :D
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Pre v1.08 P-38s.
*sniff* :)
(http://www.p38assn.org/images/cartoons/toon9.gif)
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That pic is truly obscene 7SinS...remove it at once!! ;)
btw..is that from Shemya Island? I read that the USAAF bulldozed all their remaining 38s into a ditch there when they abandoned the airfield.
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Not a huge fan of the p38, but that picture makes me sad.
F.
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almost cried the first time i seen that picture;)
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IIRC those Shemya Island P-38s were all brand new planes.
gripen
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If you think that pile is big you should see the pile of Fw 190 carcasses in my back yard! Burrrrrrrrrp!
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In the full sized version of this pic you can even see stencil marks from the factory still on these planes.
ra
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Out with the old and in with the new. You guys sound like you wish the Air Force still used P38s as its front line fighters!
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Originally posted by fdiron
Out with the old and in with the new. You guys sound like you wish the Air Force still used P38s as its front line fighters!
..well no but I'll betcha if they hadn't been destroyed they'd all be in good shape today.
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Actually FDiron, air forces today use planes far less capable than the p-38 for close ground support.
A p38 with modern avionics, engines,weapons and building materials would be quite formidable in that role.
I can see it... carrying 16 hellfire missiles and 2 laser guided bombs (2k each?), with 2500HP engines... a vulcan gun on its nose and laser targeting gear on the tip of the nose... radar installed on the rear compartments..
weee :)
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The A-10 and the Frogfoot are less capable than the P38? hehehe
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What would be the cost difference between a p-38 and an A-10?. Just for arguments sake, say the 38 carries only hellfire antitank missiles (4 per wing hardpoint, just like they are placed on the Apache) and a gun on the nose (not the a10's gun of course, but say the 20mm used in the f16) with a good ammo load. upgraded engines and avionics, hydraulics.
So u'd have 16 hellfires (or 4 laser guided bombs instead), a 20mm gun on nose, much more powerful,fuel efficient and reliable engines, gps navigation and laser guidance systems. Night vision system easily added.
A-10
Power Plant Two General Electric TF34-GE-100 turbofans
Thrust 9,065 pounds each engine
Length 53 feet, 4 inches (16.16 meters)
Height 14 feet, 8 inches (4.42 meters)
Wingspan 57 feet, 6 inches (17.42 meters)
Speed 420 miles per hour (Mach 0.56)
Ceiling 45,000 feet (13,636 meters)
Range 800 miles (695 nautical miles)
Armament:
One 30 mm GAU-8/A seven-barrel Gatling gun;
up to 16,000 pounds (7,200 kilograms) of mixed ordnance on eight under-wing and three under-fuselage pylon stations.
Cost: $13 million
P-38"Z" ;)
Two counter-rotating 2500HP (+more?) engines
Length 37'10"
Wing span 52'
Height 9'10"
Speed: 414mph (who knows with such engines what it would go to, using 38L's best speed from WW2)
Ceiling: 44,000 feet
Range: 2,600 miles (again , using WW2 figures, who knows what increased fuel efficiency with today's engines would achieve).
Armament:
One 20mm Vulcan cannon, 16X Hellfire missiles loaded in 4 wing hardpoints or 4 bombs (with increased engine power and stronger, lighter building materials, perhaps 38Z could carry 1k each hardpoint?), outer wing points may load Amraam or Sidewinder missiles instead of hellfires or bombs
Cost: ??? 3 million??
Of course, this is all speculation. But if the 38Z carried 16 missiles and had 3 times the range (read:time over target) more than the a10, while having almost the same top speed, almost the same ceiling, 38Z being smaller in length and a tad smalled in wingspan and height... and possibly being 1/3rd or less the cost of an a-10, and the 38Z being able to land and take off in grass fields... i'd say the 38Z would be quite nice to have.
Also bear in mind that only 1st world countries can afford a fleet of A-10's or frogfoots. While the A10 definetely carries more ordenance and a big tater guns, the 38Z could be a cheaper and just as effective version of it. :)
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Tac may be on to something here...
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Yeah. But just look at what they did during that hop!! ;)
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Hi Tac,
>Actually FDiron, air forces today use planes far less capable than the p-38 for close ground support.
Close support today universally seems to be provided by attack helicopters integral to the army.
>A p38 with modern avionics, engines,weapons and building materials would be quite formidable in that role.
A P-38 with modern engines and materials would have nothing to do with a P-38 at all :-)
The concept of building ground attack aircraft based on WW2 fighters was actually tried in earnest. The "Piper Enforcer" was a turbo-prop powered ground attack development of the Mustang :-) It was rejected.
The FMA Pucará fits the twin-engined propeller attacker description quite well, and as a new deisgn, it probably was much more cost-effective than a P-38 could ever be. It's telling that it was built by Argentinia, though - if you can afford effectiveness, the opinion of what is cost-effective changes.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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"Close support today universally seems to be provided by attack helicopters integral to the army"
Yep, but the air force aint the army ;) . I know what u mean, but there are things a fixed wing craft can do that a helo cant. Like get in close and strafe. Helos would get shot down if they did that. Helos work by stealth, planes by speed. Thats why the A-10 is in inventory and not a whole lotta apache or cobra gunships :)
"A P-38 with modern engines and materials would have nothing to do with a P-38 at all :-) "
The shape is the same aint it? Just made of lighter, stronger materials and with better engines :)
The Pucara is an interesting plane.
(IA58)
Crew 2 (pilot, co-pilot)
Engines 2 Turbomeca Astazou XVIG turboprops
max power 978 equivalent shaft hp each
max internal fuel
338 US gal (1,280 liters)
Weights
empty 8,862 lb (4,020 kg)
max external stores load
3,307 lb (1,500 kg)
max takeoff 14,991 lb (6,800 kg)
Dimensions
wing span 47 ft 6 3/4 in (14.50 m)
length 46 ft 9 in (14.25 m)
height 17 ft 7 in ( 5.36 m)
wing area 326.1 sq ft (30.30 sq m)
Performance
never-exceed speed (Vne)
405 kts (466 mph; 750 km/h)
max level speed
270 kts (310 mph; 500 km/h)
cruise speed
max 259 kts (298 mph; 480 km/h)
econ 232 kts (267 mph; 430 km/h)
stall speed, flaps and gear down at 10,560 lb (4,790
kg)
78 kts ( 89 mph; 143 km/h)
climb rate 3,543 ft/min (1,080 m/min)
ceiling 32,084 ft (10,000 m)
radius with 3,307-lb (1,500-kg) weapons load
lo-lo-lo 121 nm (140 mi; 225 km)
hi-lo-hi 189 nm (217 mi; 350 km)
radius with 1,764-lb (800-kg) weapons load and
119 US gal (450 liters) of external fuel
lo-lo-lo 310 nm (357 mi; 575 km)
hi-lo-hi 526 nm (606 mi; 975 km)
ferry range with full internal fuel and 459 US gal
(1,736 liters) external fuel
2,002 nm (2,305 mi; 3,710 km)
armament 2 Hispano HS804 20-mm cannon internal
and 4 FN Browning 7.62-mm guns internal
and 3 pylons for up to 3,307 lb (1,500 kg)
of external stores including up to
12 276-lb (125-kg) or 113-lb (250-kg)
napalm bombs
or 3 1,102-lb (500-kg) bombs
or 7 19-round 2.75-in (70-mm) rocket pods
or 12.7-mm/20-mm/30-mm gun pod and 2 drop
tanks
Aside from having more guns and a tad better climb rate, the ww2 38 still beats it.
"In December 1989, Argentina delivered three Pucaras to Colombia on loan for use against drug manufacturers and smugglers. It is believed that these aircraft come from undelivered aircraft that had been held in storage. It has been reported that over 40 used Pucara aircraft are available for export and Argentina is actively seeking buyers"
Yep, I used to see these suckers flying low over my house on the outskirts of Cali every time the insurgents got rowdy and noisy in the hills. Things got mighty quiet after a few bangs.
Sadly, they dont fly that often, them too expensive to lose and to fuel (and you think canada has issues sending troops to the desert with forest camos, we cant even fuel the fediddleing aircraft lol!)
Aint bad looking either :)
(http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/almanac/spanish/argentina/puca.gif)
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a P38 would suck as a ground attack fighter today. Are nuts no way could that structure survive the modern battlefied with radar guided light AAA. Tac you gotaa be kidding or drunk or both.
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Hi Tac,
>>"Close support today universally seems to be provided by attack helicopters integral to the army"
>Yep, but the air force aint the army ;)
Close support itself is not a cost-effective mission. An air force is much more effective attacking the enemy on the move in the rear areas and disrupting his logistics. The mission today is called battlefield area interdiction, but the idea itself is not new - in WW2, the Luftwaffe supported Blitzkrieg that way, and even the Soviet Stormovik usually was employed against supply lines, not against the fighting troops themselves.
The former Luftwaffe-General Paul Deichmann summarized the WW2 experience of fighting the Soviets for the US military, and concluded that devoting the Luftwaffe to close support in WW2 was a major mistake (see "Spearhead for Blitzkrieg" by Paul Deichmann/Alfred Price).
>Thats why the A-10 is in inventory and not a whole lotta apache or cobra gunships :)
The A-10 is currently on the way out of the inventory, mainly because it's slow, vulnerable, and out of a mission.
>>"A P-38 with modern engines and materials would have nothing to do with a P-38 at all :-) "
>The shape is the same aint it?
Not when you're through with it :-) You'd have to change the wing section to something more modern first ... then you'd have to switch the engines for turboprops and delete the turbo-superchargers that were the reason for the orginal twin-boom layout - no need to stick to that now. The booms impair downward visibility too much for an attack aircraft anyway.
You'd also have to re-design the entire aircraft for survivability since in the close air support mission, it would certainly get hit - and this would mean a blank sheet approach anyway. Not to mention expanding the cockpit to accomodate a two-man crew, complete with ejection seats.
In short, mounting more powerful engines on the Pucará would probably be a lot easier way to get the desired results. Finding an old OV-10 Bronco to start with might also work, if you don't mind view restrictions and a dubious ejection system :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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LOL, I can see Lazer in the pic too (right middle), he's bending over slightly, scratching his head and asking himself, how tha hell did I get here, I didn't even know I had that many squad mates.
And before I forget:
*SLAP*SLAP*SLAP* for ruining all that expensive equipment
:D
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*SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPP*
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YES!! Now I know why twin engined devils are sometimes so hard to hit! They are cheating!!!!!!!!!! They have too small planes!
:D
(http://www.aafo.com/news/events/grass_valley/g-1/images/20.jpg)
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HOT DAMN! I WANT ONE! =)
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Helos can make strafing runs. In 1993 battle of mogadishu, MH6 helos made strafing runs with their 7.62mm fixed gatling guns on Somali troop concentrations. In todays battlefield, its more important to have a plane that will bring the pilot home than it is to have a cost effective ground attack aircraft. I would take an A10 over a P38 anyday.
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Where can we ger more info on that neay toy :eek:
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Originally posted by mipoikel
YES!! Now I know why twin engined devils are sometimes so hard to hit! They are cheating!!!!!!!!!! They have too small planes!
:D
Hmm I told them for about million times... do not wash your P-38s or they gonna shring in the dryer... oh well :D
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The guy with the mini-38 lives out in California. Don't remember exactly where. Met him at an airshow at Half Moon Bay near SFO a few years ago.
He built that thing himself... not a kit... he designed it and built it.
Note the Indian head on the tail... he's an ex-345th Air Apaches pilot (just like my father).
Nice, nice fellow.
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thats not a mini 38, thats the worlds largest man piloting it, remember the 38 could lug a lot of weight off the ground, note he modified the nose to carry a full kitchen.