Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LtHans on January 26, 2002, 07:13:07 AM
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I've heard of some critisim about the USA having a double standard when it comes to the prisoners being captured or turned over to the USA. How can it be that John Walker is sent to the mainland USA and be under normal Federal laws, but the rest captured cannot.
It's the law.
OK, this is mainly for Europeans who read this board. Most common day news isn't normally carried overseas....thats why its called common day news. For example most Americans don't know jack about the UK's trouble with the railroads and such. I know about it, but only because I get my news from the BBC website. I found it superior to CNN which also goes by the name "communist news network" (no offense to any real communists is intended).
Side note: What the hell is a "row" in England? Another word for "argument"? Also, what does MP mean in UK politics? Minister of Parliment? MP means military police in the USA.
Right after September 11 the US Congress rushed through a new set of anti-terrorism laws, most having a 5 year duration, after which they have to be renewed or dropped. They're alot more lenient on the government agencies about what they can do. Things that used to be illegal can now be done, such as phone tappings and such.
However, Congress did add in clauses that these cannot be used on normal American citizens. The idea being that the anti-terrorism laws couldn't be used for the wrong reasons. I can think of lots of uses (mafia, drug trafficers, illegal immigrants, ect). You've all heard stories about how the police KNOW who the bad guys are, but cannot do anything about them because of loopholes in the laws. They'ld get creative and use anti-terrorism laws on them, perhaps going too far. Thus, the rules only aply to foreigners.
Then came John Walker.
So, by our own clauses we cannot treat him the same. Most of us WANT to treat him like a terrorist, but we can't. Please don't think we like him.
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Ditto Lt Hans on the quality of BBC reporting. Very comprehensive... beats CNN all to heck.
Regarding America's regard, or lack of, for Jihad Johnny, consider my wife's reaction to learning that JJ is 20 years old:
"20 years old? He's just a baby!"
Particularly, mothers of wayward sons will identify with this.
Multiply it tens of thousands of times all accross America (we have a lot of wayward sons) and what do you have?
We'l be lucky if Jihad Johnny isn't elected to the Senate.
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Treason or not, I think it was hurtful and tasteless of Walker to go around in blackface like that.
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MP= member of parliament
row= argument yup you're right on that one:)
Dunno why america hasn't sent the british terrorists the the UK. Then we can try them for treason perhaps...
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In that case they should send the Swedish one to Sweden for trial here...
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Originally posted by Maniac
In that case they should send the Swedish one to Sweden for trial here...
Did the Swedes go catch'em? :D Finders beaters, loser's weeper's hehe.
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Did the Swedes go catch'em? Finders beaters, loser's weeper's hehe.
Well if you look at it that way you are right :), so it was the UK troops wich captured the brittish terrorists?
On another note, Sweden now have troops in Afghanistan, its an "top secret" special ops unit...
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I absolutely agree that John Walker should be treated much differently than those foreaign Al Qaeda and Taliban Terrorist scum, after all he is an American- we have to take care of our own.
Yep much different treatement to John Walker, as in much much worse- I see no reason why he shouldnt be tortured for weeks on end then finally lets say skinned alived or boiled alive piece by
piece untill he is dead. He is a traitor and should be given no mercy. Thank god that America has so many guns so that if one day he is ever out of jail alive I am fully confident he will soon be be shot dead on the street or in his home.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep much different treatement to John Walker, as in much much worse- I see no reason why he shouldnt be tortured for weeks on end then finally lets say skinned alived or boiled alive piece by
piece untill he is dead.
I have a reason for ya. It's called Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
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I love this treatment of the terrorists crap..
LOL
Sorry. but we want to know what they know...Why send em home to be treated like heros...
As far as I am concerned The US is welcome to any canadian terrorrists caught in afganistan...we dont want em back..dont even tell us..
You can have our Sikh (sp) terrrorists as well!!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I absolutely agree that John Walker should be treated much differently than those foreaign Al Qaeda and Taliban Terrorist scum, after all he is an American- we have to take care of our own.
Yep much different treatement to John Walker, as in much much worse- I see no reason why he shouldnt be tortured for weeks on end then finally lets say skinned alived or boiled alive piece by
piece untill he is dead. He is a traitor and should be given no mercy. Thank god that America has so many guns so that if one day he is ever out of jail alive I am fully confident he will soon be be shot dead on the street or in his home.
You sense of vengeance and ruthlesness is very un-american and more akin to the Taliban and the Iraquis. Maybe you should be tried for treason.
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LOL Animal it sure is very Taliban.
But thats what little Johnny wanted to be........
what can I say, I hate the bastard and hope he is is very unhappy one way or another.
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How old was he when he joined the Taliban?
That was before 9/11 and when the Taliban was actually considered our "buddies"
I mean, they were righteous fighters, we even made a RAMBO movie with them as the good guys!
Poor bastard didnt know what was coming for him. he was a low rank POS, he had no knowledge of any Terrorist activities.
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Originally posted by Animal
How old was he when he joined the Taliban?
That was before 9/11 and when the Taliban was actually considered our "buddies"
I mean, they were righteous fighters, we even made a RAMBO movie with them as the good guys!
Poor bastard didnt know what was coming for him. he was a low rank POS, he had no knowledge of any Terrorist activities.
Yea Animal, but it is so much easier to say skin him alive without really getting to know the facts.
BTW the Taliban were a group of Islamic students (mostly) that took over after the Russians left. The buddies of RAMBO were the Mujahadeen. I'm pretty sure there is a big difference.
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All he had to do IF he was just a young confused guy who made a mistake was to say so on the tape with Mike Spann. We saw the tape he wasnt exactly crying out for help. Not doing so he cast his lot with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. All he had to do was say "Im an American and I couldnt get out of the situation after Sept11, please help me out now". Did he say this? NO! He just sat there- its on the tape. Or is this tape fake too, tahgut? He wasnt just a Taliban- he addmited to gatting Alk Qaeda traing in terrorism, he admitted to meeting with Bin Laden in a camp where Bin Laden directly praised him for joining the Jihad. This white guy from rich liberal marin county was a perfect sleeper terrorist, do you think he would just be sit unused?
How old was he Animal? If I came down to Puerto Rico and murdered your family would you excuse me because im only 21?
When does he become accountable- he was at least 18 during his whole stay in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
And Tahgut Im constantly surpries how you just simply hate America and want to defend her enemies. You are pathetic. I hope you arte to be unahappy as well.
So in my my most eloquent French to both of you:
diddly OFF
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Originally posted by LtHans
Right after September 11 the US Congress rushed through a new set of anti-terrorism laws, most having a 5 year duration, after which they have to be renewed or dropped. They're alot more lenient on the government agencies about what they can do. Things that used to be illegal can now be done, such as phone tappings and such.
However, Congress did add in clauses that these cannot be used on normal American citizens. The idea being that the anti-terrorism laws couldn't be used for the wrong reasons. I can think of lots of uses (mafia, drug trafficers, illegal immigrants, ect). You've all heard stories about how the police KNOW who the bad guys are, but cannot do anything about them because of loopholes in the laws. They'ld get creative and use anti-terrorism laws on them, perhaps going too far. Thus, the rules only aply to foreigners.
I thought they were rejected? The phone tappings and not needing search warrants I know were rejected. Yes, giving various agencies more power to "fight terrorism" can be beneficial. And yes, it can also become abused as you mentioned. People who propose these laws must have something wrong with them, as they would affect their rights as well. Thomas Jefferson said the growth of government is inevitable, but only the citizens control how fast it happens.
oct out
BTW, if they did pass, I'm glad they're temporary. Gotta fix that mistake...
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any of you guys catch the footage of them bringing him to america?
i was watching this the other night and they showed them rmoving him from the car and taking him into the building at night.
you know how usually when transproting a high-profile crimanal they block them from view and try to hide them so as not to make a target out of them?
they had glowsticks hanging all over this guy, lit up like a christmas tree, almost as if they was hoping someone would take a shot at him so they wouldn't have to figure out what to do with him.
sorry to say it but i was kinda hoping the same thing
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He is an american citizen, so he deserves to be tried as an american citizen with all the rights as such. However, I think they should have charged him outright with treason. I dont think it would have been that hard to prove.
But im no expert, its just my opinion.
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He hasnt killed anybody. And its very different situation than someone who killed a family.
Lil tardling should just be thrown in jail. Someone like you is gonna kill him when he comes out anyways.
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Sorry Kronos, I don't get it. Why should he been treated like an US Citizen if he was caught in a foreign land as a Soldier (Fighter) in a foreign Armed Force? To me its sounds that he neglected his US citizenship on his own will. So why bother to put him back in the same country what he left?
My oppinion is, that he should be at Guantanamo with the rest of the gang.
But, (a big But) then I have to say something what i know is not popular in the US. The treatmend of the Taliban and AlQuaida Fighters is not a "Human treatmend" as the US Politicians like to tell everyone. It's the same as to the American GI's in Vietkong prison camps. Maybe the problem that you don't see it is that you are Personaly involved in the case.
But enough now. The flame will come, no problem. It's a democracy, right?
metro
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"Someone like you is gonna kill him when he comes out anyways"
So very true.
"How old was he when he joined the Taliban?
That was before 9/11 and when the Taliban was actually considered our "buddies"
I mean, they were righteous fighters, we even made a RAMBO movie with them as the good guys!
Poor bastard didnt know what was coming for him. he was a low rank POS, he had no knowledge of any Terrorist activities"
This cant be. Animal is making sense!
However, remember that this guy KNEW that the Taliban had commited terrorism against the US, that they had declared jihad against the west, mainly the usa.
Guess rich boy cant figure out that "USS Cole + bomb set off in twin towers + african embassy = something's up here and im in the middle of it". He wrote to his parents that the attack on the COLE was justified. What other evidence that he was on THEIR side from the start do you need?
This guy is ssssoooo dead regardless of what the govt does with him. Its like those child rape criminals in jail.. when others in the 'house know, they kill him anyway.
In a year or 2 they'll be selling his bones in E-bay, you wait and see.
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besides...
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Originally posted by metronom
Sorry Kronos, I don't get it. Why should he been treated like an US Citizen if he was caught in a foreign land as a Soldier (Fighter) in a foreign Armed Force? To me its sounds that he neglected his US citizenship on his own will. So why bother to put him back in the same country what he left?
My oppinion is, that he should be at Guantanamo with the rest of the gang.
But, (a big But) then I have to say something what i know is not popular in the US. The treatmend of the Taliban and AlQuaida Fighters is not a "Human treatmend" as the US Politicians like to tell everyone. It's the same as to the American GI's in Vietkong prison camps. Maybe the problem that you don't see it is that you are Personaly involved in the case.
But enough now. The flame will come, no problem. It's a democracy, right?
metro
He's not being treated the same as the Afghans being held in Cuba because the military tribunals do not apply to U.S. citizens.
As far as I know, there is nothing you can do, not a single thing that will immediately revoke your citizenship without requiring some sort of due process.
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From what I understand, which is probably very little, since he is an American Citizen, AND not a member of the US military, he cannot be tried under a US military tribunal. He has to be tried under U.S. federal courts, with all the rights as such.
Also about the "humane treatment" of the terrorists, I do not think they are lawful combatants, as they deliberately targeted civilians, therefore they should not be protected under the geneva convention as POW's. It is hardly fair to compare the treatment of the Al Qaeda terrorists at the hands of the U.S. to the way the Vietcong camps were run. Have you ever met an american POW from Vietnam? If you haven't I suggest you do and listen to their stories before you begin to compare our treatment of the terrorists with what went on back then. Do you think that any american or allied soldiers captured in Afghanistan would be treated any more humanely than those in Guantanamo Bay? They would probably have been treated alot worse, much like the POW's of the Gulf War, if they weren't just shot outright.
Everyone likes to point out when the U.S. doesn't do things quite "by the book" but no one really seems bothered if countries that don't agree with U.S. policies bend or break the rules for their own benefit.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So in my my most eloquent French to both of you:
diddly OFF
tss tsss ...
//teacher Hat on
un-polite ...
VA TE FAIRE ENCULER
Polite but same meaning
ALLEZ VOUS FAIRE SODOMISER
//teacher Hat off
It illustrate the intrinsic superiority of the French over othe language : We have a LOT more insult availlable :D
As usual the french lesson is at 21:30/23:00 CET ... in the MA
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LOL Straffo....
I think Grunherz is gonna go with "VA TE FAIRE ENCULER"
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LOL they never taught me that in 7th grade French! Isnt this BBS great you get to meet nice people from all around the world then learn to cuss them out in their native language. :) What a damn UN moment! :D
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Originally posted by straffo
tss tsss ...
//teacher Hat on
un-polite ...
VA TE FAIRE ENCULER
Polite but same meaning
ALLEZ VOUS FAIRE SODOMISER
//teacher Hat off
It illustrate the intrinsic superiority of the French over othe language : We have a LOT more insult availlable :D
As usual the french lesson is at 21:30/23:00 CET ... in the MA
Isn't it actually "Va t'en faire enculer"?
Petit pédé.
Hein hein.
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not quite Osage ...
We can use either "va t'en te faire enculer" or "va te faire enculer"
Anyway the second form is more frequently used :)
We can use to "va te faire éclater la marguerite" (using flower is more poetic :)
Like I've read before "Preparation H help the bellybutton hole shine" is more humorous and strongest IMO ;)
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Merci bien, monsieur le professeur :)