Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Lephturn on January 26, 2002, 04:11:51 PM
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I checked out the CT for a while this afternoon. I REALLY like the new planeset and timeframe. The map isn't bad and I think it works pretty well. I did switch to TCP, but my connect seemed fine, even during a fight.
That said, I logged out after a while. I was bored. I spent way too long flying around looking for something to shoot at. There were about 40 folks online, so there were enough of them... I just couldn't find them reliably. I'm not alone either... I got a couple of newer folks to stop by the CT and check it out... and I got similar feedback. While I really like the CT's idea and basic setup, I don't think it's going to work very well simply because the "realism vs. fun" balance is too far to the realism side.
Let me explain why I think these to are in conflict. While I like to simulate WWII air combat, I fly AH to have fun. There were lots of things about WWII air combat that really SUCKED, and I don't want to simulate those things. One of the main things I don't want to simulate is the fact that in WWII, the vast majority of sorties would encounter no enemy aircraft at all. While that's realistic, it's not fun. The trick is to simulate the fun parts as realistically as possible, and be sure not to create an environment that simulates the parts that were not fun.
Bottom line, I think the more "realistic" radar settings in the CT are going to keep people away, including myself much of the time. Yep, they are a lot more realistic with no dar below 500 feet, limited range dar bars and dot radar. So realistic, that flying in the CT becomes TOO much like the real thing... lots of boredom. If you want reasonable numbers in the CT, you need folks to be able to find a good fight. Who cares if the radar isn't as realistic if it makes it more fun?
This has been my problem with the CT from the start, and it's still the problem I think is holding it back from being the arena I want to spend most of my time in. All the other parts are in place.. planeset, perk points for an improved version of an RPS, all kinds of things. If I had MA style radar I'd be happy, and I think there would be lots more folks in there.
I also believe this isn't just my opinion. I think there is a very vocal minority that wants the ultra-realism, and that's fine, but I believe there is a mostly silent majority that will never bother to come in this forum and let you know why they don't fly the CT. This is just my opinion, but I think the radar settings are too far on the realism side to get decent numbers of folks in there. Personally, I'm dissapointed because the REST of the CT setup is so good and so fun.
Please CT organizers... think about switching the radar settings more toward the MA settings. It won't be as realistic, but I think it will be more fun and it will allow more folks to enjoy the fantastic setups you all are putting up in the CT.
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I hear you pont, but I would counter it by saying this:
The sector bars give a good indacation of whear the enemy is, and more than likely the enemy is flying between your base and his, this narows down the search area considerably. As far as the under 500 ft thing, I dont realy think this is so much of an Issue, low leval atacks are risky because of the dangers from flak, and even then the atackers will POP up on radar once they near their target, and this will lead to a good battle at the base under atack, the most usefull aspect of the no radar under 500ft is for goon's and it is prety obvious which bases are likely to be gooned so finding theam is prety easy.
All the above does howeaver supose one thing,That the player is paying more attention to his suroundings, and the game in general, So for those looking for a quick furball fix I supose this is not the place.
I do appriceate how well you put your point forth, and it is defentaly food for thought.
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I agree Lephturn. That is why I left as well. There were 11 Allied fliers on when I left, and not one single indication of where they were either.
I could just fly around randomly I guess, but I don't have that much time to play. So I'll go where I can find a fight.
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I have yet to have any problems finding enemies in the CT, even when there are only 8 or 9 people in total. All you have to do is start an offensive action on an enemy airfield and the enemies will show up to defend almost everytime.
I do not want to see radar like in the MA. I hate the radar in the MA. The CT radar is far superior.
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Agree 100% Lephturn.
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I agree with Durr. Atleast for me, the best fun in CT is to organize or take part in an attack.
Camo
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With all due respect, I find hard to believe that a trainer has problems to find a fight in CT when 40 players are logged in.
I've never had any trouble to get shot down with 10 people online.
Dar is just fine. Yes, WWII radar was better than this BUT:
- WWII pilots hadn't a graphical display to easily read enemy positions
- IFF wasn't too good those days
So the dar we have here tries to reflect those facts. Honestly, I would much prefer a system generated text message giving updates on enemy's position every minute or so, like a real controller.
OTOH, the following experience reinforce my belief that dot dar should be banned in CT:
I was flying against another CT-fan in the baltic map setup, 2 weeks ago. One of his squadmates logs in, apparently for the first time, and begins to chase me as well. The CT-fan hits bingo fuel and rtb. His squaddie, flying a La-5, pushes the chase. I was flying a G10 and began to outclimb him. With enough separation, I turn back and attack him from above. My pass isn't good enough for a shot, and I overshoot him vertically. I was ready to extend again, but he seems to have lost sight of me. In most cases, the bogey begins then to maneuver to try to re-acquire me visually, and to avoid giving a predictable flight path. Here, nothing! He flies straight for an unusually long amount of time, allowing me to shoot him down from his low 6. After the 's, he tells me that the radar is broken because he can't see any dots.
I'm only guessing, but I'm pretty sure he used the clipboard to find where I was after he lost sight (*). And THAT is completely unrealistic. No way a WWII controller could have distinguished the opponents of a dogfight on his radar screen.
Your comments are of course welcome.
(*) I could have asked him if it was the case, but I didn't want to sound pompous nor harsh. I just explained the dar settings of CT
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:o
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Originally posted by deSelys
With all due respect, I find hard to believe that a trainer has problems to find a fight in CT when 40 players are logged in.
I honestly don't see why my being a trainer should matter. I'm just another player in the CT and I'm relating my experience. I did find a fight at first, and really enjoyed it. The problem was that after that first one, I ended up launching two more sorties where I augered for lack of enemies because the bar dar didn't give me enough info when launching. When the bar dar did show something, I was too far away to engage in combat.
Originally posted by deSelys
I've never had any trouble to get shot down with 10 people online.
Dar is just fine. Yes, WWII radar was better than this BUT:
- WWII pilots hadn't a graphical display to easily read enemy positions
- IFF wasn't too good those days
So the dar we have here tries to reflect those facts. Honestly, I would much prefer a system generated text message giving updates on enemy's position every minute or so, like a real controller..
Sure, that would be great, but we don't have that system to work with. We do have a graphical version of radar. You seem to be missing my point... I really don't care how "realistic" the radar is or isn't, I want and even NEED to be able to find a fight in a reasonable ammount of time. I'm pointing out that it's not just me with this experience, and that you will never hear from 99% of the folks who try the CT and don't come back.
Originally posted by deSelys
OTOH, the following experience reinforce my belief that dot dar should be banned in CT:
I was flying against another CT-fan in the baltic map setup, 2 weeks ago. One of his squadmates logs in, apparently for the first time, and begins to chase me as well. The CT-fan hits bingo fuel and rtb. His squaddie, flying a La-5, pushes the chase. I was flying a G10 and began to outclimb him. With enough separation, I turn back and attack him from above. My pass isn't good enough for a shot, and I overshoot him vertically. I was ready to extend again, but he seems to have lost sight of me. In most cases, the bogey begins then to maneuver to try to re-acquire me visually, and to avoid giving a predictable flight path. Here, nothing! He flies straight for an unusually long amount of time, allowing me to shoot him down from his low 6. After the 's, he tells me that the radar is broken because he can't see any dots.
I'm only guessing, but I'm pretty sure he used the clipboard to find where I was after he lost sight (*). And THAT is completely unrealistic. No way a WWII controller could have distinguished the opponents of a dogfight on his radar screen.
Your comments are of course welcome.
(*) I could have asked him if it was the case, but I didn't want to sound pompous nor harsh. I just explained the dar settings of CT
Once again I think you are missing the point. Sure, things like dot radar sometimes allow us to do things that are not realistic. (Although I would say that anybody that loses sight and has to check the map to find you again is likely already toast anyway.) I concede that point. What I'm saying is that the more "realistic" and difficult you make the radar settings, the more difficult it is to find a fight. The more difficult it is to find a fight, the lower the number of folks who will want to fly there, or be able to fly there. There are lots of folks like me that don't have a couple of hours at a time to spend in the CT. I'd like to be able to spend a half an hour in there and find a nice fight. Although sometimes I can find what I'm looking for, I spent more time augering out of boredom then I did fighting. As I said before, the radar is so realistic that flying sorties is becoming too much like the real thing in that most of the time you don't have contact with the enemy.
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Originally posted by Durr
I have yet to have any problems finding enemies in the CT, even when there are only 8 or 9 people in total. All you have to do is start an offensive action on an enemy airfield and the enemies will show up to defend almost everytime.
Great if that's your thing. It's not mine. I like the fighter role, as I'm sure you have to agree the majority of AH pilots do. I'll ESCORT somebody, do sweeps, cap, whatever. However I started every time I logged on by asking my side what was going on, where I was needed, and what I could do. Mostly there was no response, although a couple of times somebody pointed out the position of an enemy CV. Eventually I flew all the way to an enemy base and over flew it a few times. Nobody came up to play after 5 mins or so and there was no bar dar showing anywhere I could fly to so I augered.
Originally posted by Durr
I do not want to see radar like in the MA. I hate the radar in the MA. The CT radar is far superior.
You don't mean superior, you mean more realistic or difficult. The only thing the CT radar settings do is make it easier to attack bases and more difficult to find the other guy. Sure, that's more realistic, but that's a part of WWII I don't think we should be trying to simulate. Keep it like this, and you'll have the same very vocal hard-core realism enthusiasts in the CT and nobody else. The CT radar settings are certainly not superior in terms of attracting people to fly there.
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It sounds like some people who really do not want a more difficult main arena to fur around in want to add the CT to their list of options.
I thought the purpose of the CT was to provide an arena for those who actually have the time and inclination to skulk around for awhile with their finger off the trigger.
So, for the easily bored HTC provides the main arena, the dueling arena and for those in search of knowledge, the training arena, all with awacs in the air and you guys want more??????
We are always faced with choices and Hitech has sold us several, just pick the one that suits your present need and leave the others to those who choose to take advantage of them.
I like the idea of having an arena to skulk around in if I so chose and if I want to see every airborn plane in the world on my map I will log into the main and happiness will ensue.
OPTIONS, gotta love 'em!
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Lephturn,
I'm glad we agree on some topics. My point is:
if someone wants a quick sortie, with lots of action: MA
if someone has some time and wants immersion: CT
Sure sometimes I don't encounter anybody during some flights. That's why I almost always bring a bomb now.
OTOH, most fights I have in the CT are more intense and hair-raising than in MA.
I'm not particularly bright. But if I read the pop-up window describing the objectives of the setup, if I communicate with teammates and if I use a bit of my brain, I usually don't have the slightest problem to know where the fight(s) is (are) when 40 ppl are online. But I know I don't have to explain this to you. I've read almost all your articles, and I can tell you're much smarter than I am.
The settings we (CT fans) like don't appeal to the masses? Too bad...for them. I'm used to it now. Like someone said, when you try to please everyone, you only reach one thing: the lowest common denominator.
Ask yourself: if HTC had designed AH with a 12K icon range in the MA, and an HUD 'radar'... and if the CT had the settings our actual MA has....well, I'm afraid this version of the CT would have the same numbers as ours.
I'm not interested in an MA with a reduced planeset. It would only have something less than MA.
The dar and icon settings used into the CT bring something that the MA is, for me, critically lacking: the fog of war.
I hope to see you someday in CT (everywhere but on my 6 ;) )
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First of all I'd just like to point out that we've had some very good discussions in this thread. Thanks to all for your well thought-out and polite responses. It's really good to have a thread like this where everybody discusses things rationally.
I guess what I'm looking for is all the other settings of the CT, with a bit better radar. I don't need it to be exactly like the MA, but I think it needs to go more that direction. I like the icon settings and such, the limited planeset, the historical setup... that's all good in my book. That's the fun part for me.. the Axis vs. Allies part.
I also don't think it's good for the CT to have so few players. I think the CT needs to be an alternative arena that will attract enough folks to make it worth HTC's resources to keep it going. I don't think <30 folks will make that grade. I WANT this alternative arena and I want to fly there. I'm willing to compromise, and I agree it doesn't have to be the insta-furball arena that the main must be. However, I do think the current radar settings swing the pendulum too far the other way.
What compromise would be acceptable to you folks, but help more regular pilots to enjoy the CT? Surely there is some level of settings here that will strike a better balance between the two? How about simply longer ranges on the bar dar? I don't need the uber-dot dar to find a fight, and I think the 500 foot radar floor in fine. I just need to be able to see where the enemy is generally so I know where to fly to.
What do you "hardcore realism CT types" think?
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I could live with a detailed radar information...in the tower, like WB had.
In the cockpit, radar as we have now in CT.
It would also add the possibility for some players who want to cool down after an intense fight to act as GCI for their squaddies. I did it back in the WB days, and it could be fun.
But I believe this would require some code from HT, and I understand he has other priorities.
Of course, I would also prefer more players into the CT. I'm just afraid that if we 'relax the dar and icon rules' to attract other players, we won't be able to crank them up again without losing all those players...
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I understand... but I don't mind the icon rules at all. More detailed radar in the tower only might be a nice solution too, that way I could find where to go for a fight more easily. Again, I don't think that's possible without some code from HT.
There are lots of things that could be done with some code from HT. The problem is, until you get enough people flying in there, the CT has to be pretty far down HT's list of priorities. My question is, what can we do with what we have to help get more folks flying in there. :) Once we have a larger group of folks flying the CT, say 100 on a busy night, I think the CT's needs would have to move up HT's priority list higher than it is now, and we might have a better chance to get that code.
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Aside from being able to fly under radar, which is a good thing, I haven't noticed any difference of CT radar from MA radar . The sector bars tell me where the enemy is and if he is near a base he shows up as a red dot . One reason it is hard to find an enemy when there are only 8 or so players online is becuase at least half of them will be in GV's or sitting in a ship gun afk . Also if you don't see anything on your clipboard just ask someone .
Case in point: This morning while three of us were capturing 47 you got killed by enemy CG ack . Sarge1 was sitting in a shipgun afk so we saw his kill msg . We asked him who he had killed because we had no idea that there was another knight online with us .
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I think that the majority of real life pilots were just happy if they didn't encounter any enemies on their sorties.
I mean, who would want to die potentially?
In the game its more action more fun of course.
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I have flown in the ct since day 1.
Dar or no dar I could careless. I always find a fight.
I personally think having field capture enabled is far worse for me then dar settings.
I think structure and cv down times should be atleast 45 min to an hour (unless resupplied)
I dont for pac stuff in general but my 1st experience in this tour in the ct I got 9 kills and was killed by 5inch guns 8 times. I was never killed by direct nme fire. They parked a cv off 28 (2 miles max) and when ever I would reverse they ran to ack cover.
It would be more "real" to force each side to protect its cv. Inevitably some guy upped and suicided the cv. Had the cv been kept 20-25 miles off shorethis wouldn't have happened. Theres very few sb in this map so the cv is more a mobile flak platform.
I will trade you dar for no field capture and longer down times :)
Theres a crew of back door base grabbers which is fine if attacking undefended fields is your deal. But I am off the opinion that we just dont bring in enough folks to be able to cover all the fields and then its seems to me theres alot of off hour land grabs.
Longer down times may lead to longer flight times (until they resupply the field) so dot dar may help counter this. However I dont care much for the "ho, miss, split esse, run to ack, 5 inch gunner kills me.....
Its just no better then the main and no fun.
I am not gonna resort to the suicidal cv killa.
The euro map with no base capture was just more fun imho.........
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Are you sure that the present code will not allow increasing the bar dar in the TOWER ONLY? Could a CM check? If it's possible, that might be a good compromise.
One thing I've found is that with the reduced dar, the fight centres around only one area, since of course most will go where they are sure they will find a fight. Maybe increasing the bar dar will spread the fights out.
bowser
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I want to chime in here, but I want to emphasize that I mean this in a constructive manner.
I enjoy the CT and have since the new team has taken over. Now with the new setup, its a different story. I wanted to fly allied to fly the P-47. I find that I can get the P-47 but at a price of a really long ride to the fight. AT the time the IJN were attacking our CV and a land base or 2 on the far western side of the map. I flew for 15-20 minutes to get there. Notr only does this effect the P-47, but all the planes. The Hellcat is available from the CV but it was capped pretty good by Zero's and Tony's.
I love to fly, but I just dont like to spend all the time needed to arrive at the fight. I guess I could just launch a Hellcat from the capped CV and give the JAPS a good squirrrelly target. But that is not fun for me. ANyway, I will look forward to the next setup. I will step in there from time to time to see waht the sitrep is. Maybe it would allow for a good sortie for me.
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keep the settings the same, just throw out a smaller map until the numbers dictate a larger one ...
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Originally posted by Wotan
I have flown in the ct since day 1.
Dar or no dar I could careless. I always find a fight.
I personally think having field capture enabled is far worse for me then dar settings.
Yeah, I don't like the field capture much either, but then I'm not a buff pilot or a vehicle driver. If you eliminate the capture aspect completely, you eliminate another section of the players who enjoy that part of the game. While that might be OK, I'm not sure it would solve the problem I saw. I think it would help, but at the price of how many players?
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I agree generally with Durr, and specifically with Eagler. My 2 phenigs.
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Mhhh, Just need to be vocal Lephturn: ASK :)
I haven't got any trouble finding a fight in the CT if there's someone there already, I just ask on country channel "Where is the action?" , or "where do you need my dweeby services?".
I have to point out that I HATE the MA Awacs radar, especialy the dots... if you have to change it, please keep the bars, but leave out dots, if you're in a sector (25nm sq?) and the bar shows an enemy, you'll usualy be able to spot it if you're in the same sector.
Ammo, I had a grudge abut the P38 only beng ebnabled at 57/59, but soon found out that you'll get some at captured fields (medium & large ones).
I'd personaly keep it the way it is, but hey.... that's just my opinion :)
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I really dont think the Dar bar is the issue here. Lepth you should have no problems looking at an enemy BAr And guessing what theyre at.
I think CT has pretty good settings as it is.. just remember its still in its infancy. Theres yet to be a proper terrain used, give it time.
The argument for no base captures is crazy... The Arena would die of stagnation and boredom in 1-2 days.
Furzy
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Originally posted by Furzy
The argument for no base captures is crazy... The Arena would die of stagnation and boredom in 1-2 days.
Furzy
Agree, this is what we had before the CT was re-done, it was a bit pointless, maybe replace it with another form of start, but remove it ? I don't think it's a good idea.
Furz, didn't you say you were going to bed 'cause it was late ? ... OFF TO BED NOW, YOUNG MAN! ;)
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the ct had just as many folks in it when there was no field capture as there are now.
it had just as many when flight times were longer
it had just as many when sector dar was bugged in the euro map and you never knew where the nme was at.
it had just as many folks in it when there was no score..
So where do you get "no field capture would cause stagnation"?
You dont you just made it up.
We actually had athe ct with no field capture and it was more fun...... and I know because i flew there.
There is simply not enough folks to prevent i guy from killin a town augering then goonin at fields well away from where the rest of the folks are.
in the stalingrad map with the exeption of 2 vbases everything else was taken without oposition.
In the norway map I would log off at 12 am with 5 guys left on come bac saturday around noon and they were only 3 guys on but all the lw bases were grabbed.
I think making damage rebuild times would give buffers something to do by closing down the nmes forward bases.
As for the cvs they are just ack platforms as they are now. just put them 3k off shore and when you get in trouble over the field run for ack. There needs to be a much longer rebuild times on cvs. this may make folks use them a bit better.
By putting them right offshore eventually some1 will just suicide it.
As for planesets and dar I could careless. if dot dar would equate to more fun all round well lets try it.
I get kills like it is. I get kills with or without cvs or field capture, in a g2 or a zeke.
But dont tell me field capture matters 1 bit in relation to numbers because ct worked well without it.
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Not really sure what the problem is, Leph. I've been flying in the CT a lot since its been up and I haven't had any trouble finding the others. I just look at the DAR bars or--just ask on country channel. Seems easy enough to me. A lil communication can go a long way.
I actually like the way the radar is set up. It makes you rely on your SA a bit more than the AWACS setup in the main. Ya gotta actually look around a bit.
Maybe I'm just a nut, but more difficult/challenging/whatever ya wanna call it=more fun to me. I ain't been bored in there yet. : )
Drano
Originally posted by Lephturn
I checked out the CT for a while this afternoon. I REALLY like the new planeset and timeframe. The map isn't bad and I think it works pretty well. I did switch to TCP, but my connect seemed fine, even during a fight.
That said, I logged out after a while. I was bored. I spent way too long flying around looking for something to shoot at. There were about 40 folks online, so there were enough of them... I just couldn't find them reliably. I'm not alone either... I got a couple of newer folks to stop by the CT and check it out... and I got similar feedback. While I really like the CT's idea and basic setup, I don't think it's going to work very well simply because the "realism vs. fun" balance is too far to the realism side.
Let me explain why I think these to are in conflict. While I like to simulate WWII air combat, I fly AH to have fun. There were lots of things about WWII air combat that really SUCKED, and I don't want to simulate those things. One of the main things I don't want to simulate is the fact that in WWII, the vast majority of sorties would encounter no enemy aircraft at all. While that's realistic, it's not fun. The trick is to simulate the fun parts as realistically as possible, and be sure not to create an environment that simulates the parts that were not fun.
Bottom line, I think the more "realistic" radar settings in the CT are going to keep people away, including myself much of the time. Yep, they are a lot more realistic with no dar below 500 feet, limited range dar bars and dot radar. So realistic, that flying in the CT becomes TOO much like the real thing... lots of boredom. If you want reasonable numbers in the CT, you need folks to be able to find a good fight. Who cares if the radar isn't as realistic if it makes it more fun?
This has been my problem with the CT from the start, and it's still the problem I think is holding it back from being the arena I want to spend most of my time in. All the other parts are in place.. planeset, perk points for an improved version of an RPS, all kinds of things. If I had MA style radar I'd be happy, and I think there would be lots more folks in there.
I also believe this isn't just my opinion. I think there is a very vocal minority that wants the ultra-realism, and that's fine, but I believe there is a mostly silent majority that will never bother to come in this forum and let you know why they don't fly the CT. This is just my opinion, but I think the radar settings are too far on the realism side to get decent numbers of folks in there. Personally, I'm dissapointed because the REST of the CT setup is so good and so fun.
Please CT organizers... think about switching the radar settings more toward the MA settings. It won't be as realistic, but I think it will be more fun and it will allow more folks to enjoy the fantastic setups you all are putting up in the CT.
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My two bits.
1. Friendly dar-bar should always be on. I should always have SOME idea where friends are.
2. CV's should not be player controlled in CT. Too often its is just parked off a coastal field and then the silliness begins.
3. No more gigantic maps. 128x128 should be largest and they should be designed to enforce a logical front.
Oops, that's three.
F.
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I like the setup as it is now. And I have no problems finding a fight.
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Today I had no problem finding a fight, mostly because there had been some field capture so everybody was much closer together scraping over the same island. It was a problem on Sat. for me because everybody was in start position and the enemy bases were far enough away that I wasn't getting any enemy dar bar.
I don't need the uber-dots... I think longer range on the bar dars would do it. I want to always be able to see friendly dar bar, and longer range on the enemy ones. I don't need to know exactly where each plane is, but help me get into the right area.
However, one thing I DO waste time on that bugs me is chasing dots. I see a dot.. I call on radio is there a friendly in X position and get no response. I chase it down... and it turns out to be a friendly. Bah. Oh well at least I could find a fight in there today and didn't have to auger out of boredom.
One thing I do agree on, is that a smaller map would likely help. However, I think if you think about it, you can have the same effect by simply increasing the radar ranges on the current map.
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The few times I go there I find a fight easily. Almost always its a small dogfight, not a furball... usually when 2 flights of 2 or 3 planes each meet and bounce each other.
The 2 things that keeps me from the CT now that there's a P-38 in it are:
1) TCP (gawd, wtf is up with that? log in to CT, smacked to TCP, warpwarpwarpwarpwarp)
2) Who the heck put the P-38 bases 5 sectors away from the front line? Up a 38, fly 3 to 4 sectors, and only find fights down low (duh, whyd they be high when the field they must hit is down there?). They should put ONE 38 enabled field at least 1 sector from the front line, say, A47 in the current NDISLES map. If im gonna go hi alt id take off from 57 or 59, but theres no way im gonna fly 2, 3 sectors just to engage a 5k zeke. heeelll no.
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Since it was my setup, I'll try to respond as best I can. I uped the dar-bar range to 35 miles, figuring this would give each side adequate response time to incoming raids. The network of neutral fields, while not very useful tactically, have working radar when they're captured. So grabbing them is not a total waste. They're also good for rearming. We're having a debate in the private CT Team forum about further increasing the range to around 50 miles...no decision yet.
As for Allied land-based aircraft being too far back, initially that was true. However, the Allies had captured a base from the Japanese that first evening, at which point the P38's were available literally in the Japanese's back yard. This was the intent, to force the Allies to make an amphibias assault before they could bring in the Air Force. Since then, the P38 has been dominating the skies over the Japanese islands. Nice job Allies, buy the way:).
Regarding field capture, this was THE single most common reason sited for why people weren't flying in the CT, before the new CT team took over. If you've followed the countless post before and since the CT was introduced, you'll gain an appreciation for how difficult it must be for HTC to deal with the many conflicting requests made of them every day...and how difficult it has been for us. Personally, I don't see how having field capture hurts those that just want to shoot down others (at least up until the time one side has no bases left).
Oh, and this set up started with rebuild times set to twice the MA value. I did this because of the long distances between the two sides in the initial set up. I don't know if this has been for the good or not; still waiting for feedback. Don't know if all this helps you all or not. I just wanted to make sure you all knew that we're listening and trying our hardest to find the right formula. Salute!
Sabre
CT Team
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i followed those countless posts about field capture....
see any more folks in the ct then when ct had no field capture?
Nope........... just like I said it would then.
fields are captured now through the back door as I said they would be during those countless field capture threads. There captured when no one is in there or when the 5 guys that are in there are fighting across the map.
With the exception of hblair I dont think I saw any of the other ct cms fly in the ct prior to becoming cms so I can understand that they have no idea that folks had fun without field capture.
Your settings you can do what you want. I am only replying to statements like "its what the people want" and "field capture brings in more folks".
Well very few of the people who wanted it fly there and they aren't any more folks flyin in there prior.
My squad had 6 guys that flew ct in the euro now I am the only one.
It may be that the small number of folks the fly the ct now as compared to then prefer field capture.
I prefered "combat theater" not a mini main with different planesets.
Thats all I say on it.
How about increasing cv down time at the very least to avoid parking it off a field.
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Well, since I've only had time to log in once since the terrain changed, I really can't say too much. Was a bit ticked off when I found several bases that were ours according to the map, but I could not get a fighter available at any of them.
Ended up finding a fight off A47, enemy had their fleet offshore and were alternately making feinting attacks at us, then diving to the safe welcome arms of the acks (old, old, old tiring game I think).
One thing I think would be interesting is this: Give ranking players ability to kick the shore batteries into AI mode, and let the shore batteries engage the fleets. Makes taking a fleet into super close range VERY dangerous, would all but eliminate the floating ack umbrella the fleets have become, and it would keep fleet commanders on their toes. Since the shore batteries are pretty easy to knock out with aircraft, to me, it evens the sides and makes the game more interesting.
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AI shore battery : I like it :)
Wotan, if your only interest is shooting other planes, what bothers you about the field capture ? If you've only got one base left to take off from.... means more targets to shoot inthat area, right ? :D
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My €0.02:
I like CT. And that's an understatement.
MA radar is awful, terrible for a WWII simulation. Arguably is the worst possible implementation of that kind of system.
Not in CT. You can bounce, you can think, you can setup an engagement....hell, you can even disengage! Leave the radar setup like it is now. I will dispute anyone who says he can't find a fite. Above all, I think radar settings is the single most important issue to make combat different to the one prevailing in MA.
With regards to CV's....Yes I would like to have them modified. Not AI controlled, but I certainly put them away for a long time (if not for the whole tour) if sunk. Besides that, I would put ports in the farthest points of each side. I would make them harder to sink, to compensate for that, but damage inflicted would have to last longer. This way, the strat value of a CV (wether as a launching platform or a mobile ack battery :p) would be balanced against the importance (time wise) of its loss.
Talking about base capture, I think it's crucial. I would not play CT if there is no base capture, because it would be a fighter only arena. I like a more complex setup, where you can capture things, grab territory, etc. Just see what happened yesterday nite in D66/A34/A37/A33...
Finally, with regards to planeset: there is no way Japanese planeset can do squat. Allies can rule the engagement almost with any plane. Either P-38, Hellcat, P-47, F4U-1 can dictate the terms of the fite against Tony or George, let alone Zeke. There is no way the Japanese force can counter a combined attack. I mean, a high alt buff force (escorted), is virtually untouchable to Japanese planes. Not a whine, just thinking that N1K2 should be perked at a very very low price.
As a conclusion, my only real problem with CT is connection. Warps can ruin any fight, wether in MA or in CT. But in CT itches more, since it involves more time and thinking.
Cheers, and CT players!
Pepe.
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Wotan, if your only interest is shooting other planes, what bothers you about the field capture ? If you've only got one base left to take off from.... means more targets to shoot inthat area, right ?
Example
we were (axis) at a34 to retake it and we did I killed the ack and killed 6 fighters and 1 b26 ib off the cv (after every guy i saddled up on in a zeke would run the 2 k too there ack btw).
There were 15 guys online 8 axis 7 allied. all but 2 axis were engaged at 34 the other 2 were enroute. There were 5 allied planes there.
Well we get a message a39 has been captured (4 -5 sectors away). Thats how field capture works in the ct. Or better yet when no body is in there. We dont have the folks to defend every field we dont have the folks to fly 'round looking for nme cv deep in our territory. So short of no field capture whats left. In the "kurland" (norway map) there was guys grabbin bases off hours. I would log and we (several times) had gotten every base but 51. Return the next day someone had grabbed every base but 1. Even fields not even remotely linked to the victory conditions.
There at one time several threads about late night field capture in the main when we had only 15 guys there. Guys would racked up base grabs the same way then no opposition. Base capture is so easy now kill 3 ack is the biggest threat.
"Combat Theatre" not "sneaky back door base grab theatre".
Like I said I used to get my other 5 guys into the ct now just me out of my squad.
If thats what you guys want a "mini-main" well I gues I am done with it.
Couple that with the "ho, split esse run to fleet ack repeat"(on both sides) gets old.
Anyway Aces High has less and less to offer me everyday. I'll just take a break till 1.09 comes out.
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Originally posted by Pepe
Finally, with regards to planeset: there is no way Japanese planeset can do squat. Allies can rule the engagement almost with any plane. Either P-38, Hellcat, P-47, F4U-1 can dictate the terms of the fite against Tony or George, let alone Zeke. There is no way the Japanese force can counter a combined attack. I mean, a high alt buff force (escorted), is virtually untouchable to Japanese planes. Not a whine, just thinking that N1K2 should be perked at a very very low price.
Pepe.
Actually it is much worse in the MA for those of us who like Japanese planes . And a lot of players in the MA will call you names for flying them .
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Originally posted by Pepe
My €0.02:
I like CT. And that's an understatement.
MA radar is awful, terrible for a WWII simulation. Arguably is the worst possible implementation of that kind of system.
That's just your opinion of it, and you sir, are in the very vast minority if you go by the arena numbers. As I said in posts above, there are some parts of WWII air combat you DO NOT want to simulate. Flying around not finding anybody is one of them, and the more difficult you make the radar settings, the harder it is to find a fight.
Originally posted by Pepe
Not in CT. You can bounce, you can think, you can setup an engagement....hell, you can even disengage! Leave the radar setup like it is now. I will dispute anyone who says he can't find a fite. Above all, I think radar settings is the single most important issue to make combat different to the one prevailing in MA.
You can "dispute" all you want, but I logged off twice on Saturday because I couldn't find a fight, and was forced to auger for lack of anything else to do. Sure, it's possible to find a fight, it was just more difficult and I ended up spending a lot of time simplly looking for something to do. That wasn't fun. I'm not saying you go completely to the MA settings... longer range bar dar radar wouldn't change the things you say you like. The icon settings have much more to do with bounces and escaping than the radar does, and the bar dar radar doesn't change that. It's simple really, the shorter range the bar dar is, the more difficult it is to find enemies. On Saturday with the map we had it was too short. On Sunday each side had a base very close to the other so it "fixed" the problem, because closer fields had the same effect as longer range bar radar. This just proves to me that longer range bar radar will help.
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Originally posted by Sabre
Since it was my setup, I'll try to respond as best I can. I uped the dar-bar range to 35 miles, figuring this would give each side adequate response time to incoming raids. The network of neutral fields, while not very useful tactically, have working radar when they're captured. So grabbing them is not a total waste. They're also good for rearming. We're having a debate in the private CT Team forum about further increasing the range to around 50 miles...no decision yet.
Oh, and this set up started with rebuild times set to twice the MA value. I did this because of the long distances between the two sides in the initial set up. I don't know if this has been for the good or not; still waiting for feedback. Don't know if all this helps you all or not. I just wanted to make sure you all knew that we're listening and trying our hardest to find the right formula. Salute!
Sabre
CT Team
Thanks Sabre, it's obvious you folks are listening and doing your best. With both sides having bases on the same island on Sunday, it certainly made finding a fight much easier! I think this illustrates that longer range on the radar bars would help, or a smaller map. :) The effect would be similar either way.
I think you are doing a great job considering you are working with NDIsles map. It's much to big, and has 3 countries, which is making things pretty complex. A proper 2 sided map of suitable size should make things much better. Also, as the map gets smaller, the bar radar becomes essentially more effective given the same range settings. I think a decent dar bar range will depend on the map, and should allow each country to "see" about 1/2 way into the other country by default. This will allow raids to depart from rear bases unseen if desired, yet still allow folks to find where the action is at the front line bases.
Anyway, I just want to say that I appreciate all the CT team's hard work. In addition to putting lots of effort into the setup, you are also listening to our concerns and opinions, and that just rocks! Thanks.
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IMO communication would go a long way to make up for reduced dar settings in the CT. If players would use AHVoice, and/or make an effort to report enemy contacts, it'd be much easier to find the action, and be more of a team effort.
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Yeah Popeye, but that's a big IF. The whole point of the graphical radar is to give you that same information, but not make it dependent on other people who may not feel like worrying about that stuff. In the real thing you'd have a dedicated radar and comms staff to handle this stuff, but in AH we have other tools to provide us with the same information. This way we get the information we need, but without requiring somebody else to perform that role.
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I think increasing the sector counter range would go a long way to helping find the fight. I try to let people know what I'm doing when they ask, but sometimes I just can't stop and type in the middle of a fight. ;) One thing that might help is to increase the range on friendly dot dar, like the MA has. You can see where your people are, but you can't see where the enemy is. This would go a very long way to the "I chased down a plane but it was just a friendly, even after I asked repeatedly if another friendly was in that vicinity."
As for the CV being capped... It was parked 5-10 miles off of A28 when I was flying. We'd be foolish to let people up from a CV that close and climb to an advantageous position. All that happened was consistent dogfighting in the CV ack. It was a blast, but if they're gonna ack hug, we're gonna cap. ;)
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Lephturn,
Sorry if you felt offended by the tone of my post. Was not my intention.
On the content, radar setting makes a different combat environment with respect to MA. If you want MA settings, you can have them there. The vast minority have no other choice but CT.
On the easyness to find a fight, just ask people where the fight is. On my particular experience, I have NEVER, EVER been in the case where nobody tells me where the fight is. Your statement is plain wrong. Finding a fight is not a matter of radar settings, but a matter of numbers. If CT population is 20 or more, you can bet is easy to find a fight. Even if there are less people, just make a mission to attack a field, and there you have the fight.
Chasing dots is something intrinsecal to CT. I like that, as well. Adds to immersion, in my book. It's better than chasing red dots on radar.
Again, no offense intended. Seeking offense seems to be a MA pattern, not a CT one. ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Yeah Lephturn, I agree. I lobbied for more liberal dar when the CT setup was being discussed. Some viable alternatives might satisfy both sides of the issue, but would require coding changes. My suggestion is to have wide dot dar coverage, but delay the updates by 30 seconds or so. You'd get enough information to find the fight, but wouldn't get "artificial SA".
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"see any more folks in the ct then when ct had no field capture?
Nope........... just like I said it would then"
You're not considering that since CT has had field capture, its been spitfests (just like MA..*yawn*) and then we got smacked with TCP connects. :( I think that the only CT that's been fun so far was the russian / german set, but that lasted a short time until the connect issues started.
I like the dar set up for CT. :)
However, I would like to ask the CM's to consider these settings (if they are possible to be set like this), perhaps just to experiment at least :
Bar Dar range of 45 miles.
No Bar Dar under 500ft.
No Dot Dar under 500ft.
Dot Dar for planes above 500ft ,10 miles around friendly fields.
Dot dar for planes above 25k, unlimited range.
This would make the arena have no dot dar or bar dar for planes under 500ft.. NOE raids possible.
Would make bar dar out to 45 miles from friendly fields give anyone ample notice of where the fight is.
Would give dot dar for planes 10 miles around friendly fields to increase the chances of defenders to intercept cons (think of them as spotters 10 miles around fields).
Would give DOT DAR for any plane above 25k throught the whole map. This is so that high alt raids can be seen coming in and defense can be upped. End to milkrunning 32k B17's out-turning anything up there while spewing turbolaser... and increased gameplay enjoyment for both defenders (that get to intercept a buff raid..yay!) and for the attackers (who bring escorts and fly in formations to increase their chances).
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I like your Tac' Dar suggestions very much and I think they would greatly increase the playability of the CT.
..still, there are barely enough pilots on, axis and allies combined, to form even 1 squadron. Why then, are we playing over a whole theatre? So maybe you do find a fight, buts its only a few of the opponents because some folks are off milkrunning bases 100's of miles away from any opposition.
And what is with the "well i have no problem finding a fight" comments. Is this some kind of contest?
F.
(burnt)
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Originally posted by Pepe
Lephturn,
Sorry if you felt offended by the tone of my post. Was not my intention.
On the content, radar setting makes a different combat environment with respect to MA. If you want MA settings, you can have them there. The vast minority have no other choice but CT.
On the easyness to find a fight, just ask people where the fight is. On my particular experience, I have NEVER, EVER been in the case where nobody tells me where the fight is. Your statement is plain wrong. Finding a fight is not a matter of radar settings, but a matter of numbers. If CT population is 20 or more, you can bet is easy to find a fight. Even if there are less people, just make a mission to attack a field, and there you have the fight.
Chasing dots is something intrinsecal to CT. I like that, as well. Adds to immersion, in my book. It's better than chasing red dots on radar.
Again, no offense intended. Seeking offense seems to be a MA pattern, not a CT one. ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
Nope, I didn't take any offense. :) I didn't mean any either, although I disagreed in a forceful but polite manner. :)
I still don't agree with you, but that's fine. We can agree to disagree. :) All I was asking for is increased range on the bar dars, not dot radar like the MA. It looks like Sabre may try out 50 miles for the dar bar in the CT, so we'll so how that works, I think it will really help. Increased range on friendly dot dar would be nice as well, but I'll take what I can get.
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Ok... here is where the basic difference in perception is...
pepe has a K/T of 0.0009
thrawn has a K/T of 0.0008
Now there is nothing wrong with that... People should play the way they want but.... These guys cannot dispute the fact that MOST people would find what they do boring in the extreme. K/T['s like these do indeed indicate to MOST people that it is extremely hard to "find a fite". what seems like intense "seat of the pants action" to these guys seems like dozing off at the opera to me and I am sur that what I do appalls them.
but please.... let's put things in perspective.
lazs
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Lazs, I'm sure someday one psychiatrist playing AH will give his name to this obsession of yours...
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What's wrong with Opera ? I shoot at it everyday ... OOOps :D
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desillys... nope, no shrink yet but an AH player and inmate of an institution (claims he "worked" there") claimed that I had a "borderline personality" in a thread not too long ago... Maybe yu could ask a girlfriend? I find girlfriends are veritable funds of information on personality disorders.
lazs