Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LePaul on January 27, 2002, 01:48:01 PM
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The last 2 nights, I've had the time to play more than I do during the weeknights. Both myself and some squadmates are fascinated with incredible AI acks that are more accurate the faster you are. And, have some incredible range.
Repeatedly, I've had P-47's and P-38's enter a dive 15k over a base to line up on a target for a bomb release. I just as I release to nose up, I hear the 1-ping hit and am instantly in tower.
I'm just weary of the incredible AI acks, or the mannable/non-tracer ack. Its so easy to get cynical about this, and I guess that's where I am at with it. CV acks can't down anything flying over them. But, go over an airbase and make a low pass at 500mph, with plenty of evasive manuevers, and you're dead.
I dunno. I'm just frustrated that my last 10 sorties in fighters/jabo all suffer the 1-ping ack death. These aren't suicide runs, and judging from others bemoaning it on channel two, its something that really needs addressing.
Please, review the AI acks.
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What exactly is wrong with the acks? Are you saying there should be no ack or that you should be able to jabo at will with no reasonable expectation of being shot down?
Personally I think the acks are undermodeled and should be able to track multiple planes simultaneously like it was for real. They are far too easy to take out and there should be no way anyone should be able to de-ack a field solo in a fighter or fighter bomber.
I'm not being sarcastic but stating my views based on my readings of the AAA situation as faced by real pilots in WW2. I just don't understand why you think acks are not decently set up as they are now.
Mav
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IMO, the main problem is the "ping", BOOOM, feature. In most of the cases, a SINGLE ping means critical damage or death. It seems there are no medium and no small cal acks. And all of them are even deadlier than hispano guns.
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I'm not real happy with the ack situation myself. The slower the plane, the more likely you are to survive a jabo run, at least from my experiences.
One former Jug pilot I talked to told me about some of his attacks on German ack batteries and other ground attack runs, and he said they typically started their run from 10-12K, went into a 45-60 degree dive, pulled out at 3-5K, and he hardly ever got even scratched as they hit speeds of 500+ in the dives and the egress routes. And we are talking about anywhere from 25-100 guns in a target area, not 5-9 like we have at the fields. He said even with the many guns firing at you, you were hard to hit at those speeds. In AH, you have a better likelihood of surviving if you are in a Zero doing 200 mph when you attack a field than you do in a Jug or Mustang doing 400+, which is nuts IMO.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
IMO, the main problem is the "ping", BOOOM, feature. In most of the cases, a SINGLE ping means critical damage or death. It seems there are no medium and no small cal acks. And all of them are even deadlier than hispano guns.
This is exactly what I am speaking of.
Im not, by any means, saying remove the acks. But it seems the AI ack is set to *Green Beret Sniper* level or something. I can understand taking hits and minor damage.
But the 1-hit-back-in-the-tower or dead engine syndrome is getting old for me.
I'm seeing it happen in all the armored planes...P47s on down to the Il-2.
Just gets frustrating, some days are better than others, ya know?
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I agree that the ack is too accurate, but to say that a 37mm wouldnt ruin your day real quick in one "ping" is false. :P IMHO HTC should decrease the accuracy of the AAA by about 70%... AND increase the number of AAA installations on a field 3 fold. In other words - instead of 3 37mm sniper positions knocking 450 IAS aircraft out of the sky at 2000 meters, why not something like 8 37mm's, 4 20mm's, and some single .50's for good measure - ALL with GREATLY reduced accuracy. =) Of all the footage Ive seen of WWII AAA - anything was rarely hit and if it was, there were thousands of shels in the air at the same time going after the same target. This would make field capture slightly more difficult and allow for greatly reduced realism IMHO.
"Mazz"
<--The Flying Circus-->
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I like Tac's idea on this issue.
* a lot of small calibre(.303) AI controlled acks
* a few player controlled 37mm acks
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But ultimately no adjustment will stop people from complaining as long as the strat targets are airfields. As long as airfields remain as the most important targets, people will endlessly attempt fighter jabo attacks at low alt, and the problems with ack are bound to pop up(acks too good.. acks too dumb... whatever it is..). There will always be ack problems, and level bombers will always remain less effective, cumbersome, slow and useless.
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Come on, the acks are a joke. If you're coming from anywhere over 10k you have no excuse whatsoever for being hit, you can literally watch the tracers take the time to form on you.
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What happens when you drive a flak panzer or a manned ack? you will have a lot of chances to kill any enemy flying straight at you up to 1.2k yards (any speed), but little or no chances of scoring a hit at a fast plane flying left to right (or viceversa) at less than 500k yards, for example. slow moving targets will be easy to hit up to 1.2k yards, but fast moving ones will be almost impossible to track. Even more considerations:
- You cant aim vertical.
- Your angular speed is slow, so you cant stop firing at North and start inmediately firing South.
- You can hardly aim at night.
- Chutes will not be your primary target just because they are the nearest enemies to you.
- You are not going to aim only at the nearest target if another one is closing fast towards you.
- You cant aim through smoke.
Actually, the funny thing is that acks are much less dangerous if you just fly to kill them than if you just fly around them.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Come on, the acks are a joke. If you're coming from anywhere over 10k you have no excuse whatsoever for being hit, you can literally watch the tracers take the time to form on you.
Fatty,
I have all kinds of films I'd love to show you where I'm in a heavy dug, diving down from 15k and 1 ping/hit takes a wing off or, I'm right back in the tower. If I'm flying something German, the engine is nailed first.
No whining, just absolutely amazed how many JFK bullets I'm taking :D
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Originally posted by LePaul
If I'm flying something German, the engine is nailed first.
So, I'm not the ony one ... ;)
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There are several ways to defeat the AA. The last time I was shot down by AA is because I was stupid enough not to jinx/change direction on egress.
My biggest fear is, that if you make the AA any easier, then field capture begins to be that much easier...and suicidal fighters (newbies) that come in on a field with all AA up to strafe fighters launching would be encouraged to do it more so.
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I want to die if I screw up a field attack. Swapping all the guns to .303 or even .50 so you get a dozen warning pings every time just isn't going to cut it for me. As it is you may get that anyway, depending on which gun is hitting you, but if it's one of the 37mm then yeah, it's not going to be a light strike.
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Ripsnort, dont worry at all about AA being killed by newbies, they will never hit the VH and you will have that field full of flaks in the next seconds. It is funny to see how more than ten fighters try to deack as soon as possible a field in the hope of having an ethernal vulchfest, just to be erased by an orde of flaks almost inmediately :D
It is even more funny to see how them dive after the takingoff defenders with all the ack up.
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IMO People are exaggerating or are just not smart about dealing with ack.
If youre going to attack something in the middle of a air field when all ack is up then you have a lot more chances of being hit. Start with the outer ones first. Not only that change direction often.
I regularly deack towns and help in deacking fields with no scratches.
Also if you start diving at 5k+ , (put on zoom if you have trouble aiming) and pull by around 2.5k you will not get hit.
I believe the acks should be strengthened, 1 or 2 .50 cal bullets should not be able to take it out.
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I think the general idea is to make them 'dangerous dangerous', instead of 'boneheaded dangerous'. A 37mm ack sniping a plane traveling at more than 400 miles per hour at thousands of feet high, while slackering around planes dancing around in low speeds at deck alt....
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I think this should be the opposite way around, where the guys have hard time hitting the fast guy at thousands of feet alt, while puncturing more holes than a Swiss cheese on the guy dancing at low speeds, low alt...
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Originally posted by LePaul
incredible AI acks that are more accurate the faster you are.
But, go over an airbase and make a low pass at 500mph, with plenty of evasive manuevers, and you're dead.
How do you make evasive manouvers at 500 mph? I take it you mean manouvering "out of plain" ie changing direction?
For sure the ground fire is less accurate when you are able to change direction constantly and this is only possible when flying slower.
Hence if there is a variable which is too accurate its the ground fires ability to "lead aim" its target.
I would also agree re lethality.... I would prefer massed 7.6mm, some 12mm and the occasional single 20mm (manned) on most small and medium fields
Tilt
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Example 1. N1k flies into AA range going 200 TAS, slowly turning left and right. It is able to fly through all the AA and kill every gun by itself, the entire time the AA guns are shooting but cannot hit it.
Example 2. A low B-17 (About 200feet) flies straight and level over a field. 3 AA guns are firing everything they have right at it, but the B-17 does not take any damage and keeps on flying.
Example 3. An enemy GV is on a friendly field when an AA gun re-spawns about 20 yards from it. The gun starts firing at the GV but is only able to hit the ground in front of it.
Example 4. You bail out of your plane and hit the silk. As you are floating down, the AA guns are firing at you, but the tracers are going right, left and over you. None hit you all the way down. You land and then end flight. Captured.
Example 5. A freindly plane is being pursued by a bandit. They are both low ans slow, so the friendly drags the bandit into the AA cover hoping to get cleared. The AA fires wildly all over the sky, but the bandit is not hit. The freindly keeps flying around and drags the bandit directly over the AA guns. Finally, the bandit scores a kill and then escapes from the AA guns range.
Example 6. You are in a P-51D flying at 300+ TAS in pursuit of a bandit. The bandit dives for the AA. You decide to pull out at 4000 feet as you see tracers flying up to you. Just as you get the nose up and start banking away, a single round hits you and you're dead.
All of these examples have been seen by many people. It is foolish to say that the AA fire is realistic.
How is it that a gun firing at a plane coming in from the south can INSTANTLY slew 180 degrees to shoot at that same plane as it passes overhead at 300+ TAS?
How is it that a gun firing at a plane as big as a B17 cannot hit it, even when the B17 is less than 1000 yards away?
How is it that a gun can't hit a stationary object right in front of it, but can shoot 8500 feet into the air and kill a fast moving plane?
AA is not accurately modeled and needs to be modified.
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It's never going to be modelled accurately. Not and still have double digit fps on anyone's machine.
Since it cannot ever be done accurately, I prefer the deadly version of inaccuracy over the pansy version of inaccuracy.
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CV acks can't down anything flying over them? Hmmm.... wonder how I got those 4 kills from cv today (or was it 5, can't remember)... just lucky I guess... seems like a lot of people who man the cv guns get lucky... of course, that's not AI, so I'm off topic I guess. I actually rarely get the one ping kills, usually one hit will bring me down, but not instantly. And yes, I come in fairly fast, usually around 400 ias in a dive. I have noticed that I get hit more in the dive than when I'm pulling out and circling for another run, and on my second run at lower alt and speed, I don't get hit much at all. It is an odd feeling to get hit by the first ack shot (no previous tracers) at high (15 - 18k) alt. And getting nailed through the clouds... that would be my biggest whine. How do they do it? IR homing ack, lol...
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The solution would be for HTC to add single .50 cal AA guns and quad .303 AA guns for the terrain editor and let us show how acks can be made better.
Midnight: I disagree in your observations of the ack firing at gv's and at planes following a friendly plane.
From my experience, if im in a gv and field gets taken and my gv is on a slightly higher terrain that the acks, they will hit the earth only. If im level they will hit me several times (they do miss like 4 out of 10 shots).
However, when im following a high speed con into ack, I get killed INSTANTLY by the gdamn sniper ack. If im following a 200mph con as he jinks and flies to or over his ack, I have a good chance of living through it (but the moment I fly OVER an ack gun I die. Trick: dont fly over the ack guns).
But it is true, a zeke , n1k or spit or any good turner flying below 200mph and turning can wipe a field by itself and not get hit. But a 580mph Me262 changing alts and jinking without returning to any of its previous positions (aka, left, down, left, up, level, up, right, down, right, down, left .. all done in 5 seconds or less). gets hit with incredible regularity. Just like the 450mph plane diving and corkscrewing to a side as it dive bombs (corkscrewing to keep speed under control).. and WHACK!
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I think its simple.
This is an online game.
the idea is it offers what other games cant. ie boxed SINGLE player games.
If im shot down by a human controlled ack then fair enough but i certainly dont pay money to fight computer controlled guns that can spoil 20 minutes or longer of flying.
make AI guns small calibre with 303s and 50 cals please. Im fed up with ack taking a wing off or destroying my plane in the first pass even whilst using evasive manouvers that no sane world war 2 pilot would ever dare do.
TAC is right AI should be small caliber with manned ack WHATEVER caliber i dont mind.
I dont play to feel frustrated. I play AH to enjoy myself and pit my skills against human players.if i want to fight AI stuff i can do it a LOT cheaper!
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Well I'm with LePaul on this one.
I'd NEVER been able to kill acks with any kind of consistancy until they changed it to the present model. Now the key for me is get slow - as long as I tool around the outer edges at 200-250 using roll/climb/reverse tactics my survival rate increases. The only time I'll get killed is a 500kt pass in a tiffie which to me is bellybutton backwards. I think the history shows that the key to attacking ground installations was fast in - fast out and in AH at the moment that is "the way to get killed"
I'm with the suggestion of more small calibre less acurate acks.
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Pretty much will ruin a JABO mission in a hurry. Your defense against base defense is high speed.
BUT...
The faster you go, the easier field ack will nail you. Makes no friggin sense to me.
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Originally posted by Mino
Pretty much will ruin a JABO mission in a hurry. Your defense against base defense is high speed.
BUT...
The faster you go, the easier field ack will nail you. Makes no friggin sense to me.
This ain't rocket science :) , the ack really doesn't care what your speed is. It is tracking and predicting your path. The faster you go...the tougher it is to alter your path. The same does apply to manned guns. I have a much better chance of hitting a P51 crossing my osti's guns at 300 than I do a Spit jinking at 200.
One thing that works well for me is a lot of rudder stomps. It does seem that just this slight change in my path can throw the AI off. The other thing is to NEVER fly directly over a live ack :D .
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NoBaddy;
Doh! To think no one ever thought of jinking, even at high speed, through the AAA. What a concept, your the MAN!
But...
IMO, the AAA really hits a fast mover much more often, with unerving accuracy than a slow mover.
Thats the squeak.
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Mino...
Gosh and Gee!!! You're gonna make be blush with such uplifting compliments!!!
I would have figured someone as brilliant and insightful as yourself would noticed my 2nd and 3rd sentences. Of course, doing so would have made your post superfluous. Those sentences don't state my opinion. They are Hitech's explanation of how the AI works. That being said, your comment "IMO, the AAA really hits a fast mover much more often, with unerving accuracy than a slow mover. " becomes a big....DUH.
Thats the squeak.
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What the hell does accurate ack have to do with FPS fatty?
A drunk monkey and a navy seal still fire the same number of rounds per second from an M-16. Same number of rounds = same FPS hit.
Clearly the AI modeling is a tad off. Probably some odd combination of a limit on the traverse speed, mixed in with a few other skewed variables.
The ack needs to:
a) Lead the target, it should start inaccurate but home in quickly
unless
b) The target is jinking a fair amount or the amount of lead required is changing rapidly.
Basically first the ack will figure out how fast your angle is changing, then it'll figure out how much your change of angle is changing.
This should result in the following:
If you fly straight down at an ack, you're toast. The amount of lead needed to hit you isn't changing and neither is your angle to the ack.
If you fly in circles around an ack, you're eventually toast. While your angle to the ack is changing constantly, amount you angle is changing isn't changing and your 'lead' isn't changing. The ack should eventually get you.
Plus the rate at which the ack figures out all these numbers should be inversly proportional to your distance.
In numeric terms: The ack first predicts your Delta Angle and Delta Distance, then it predicts your Delta Delta Angle and Delta Delta distance.
But the Delta Delta info is always calculated with a few seconds or so of delay. This way if you keep jinking (and not just following a predictable circle) it eventually gets you.
~Lemur
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What the hell does accurate ack have to do with FPS fatty?
Where people are having problems is the damage and accuracy per gun is not realistic. The ack if anything is overall less lethal than it should be (if it's not, why the hell did people even use armor or bombers in the war, all they needed was half a dozen fighters and they could have taken out Berlin). The most common alternative stated to the current ack is to replace it with a lot of 303s.
Do you realize how many 303s you need to even have a chance of killing an attacking plane, even if he stops right in front of them and allows them to shoot?
I would certainly hope there would not be a change made in that direction without 60-80 ack emplacements for a small field, at least. That would be a frame rate issue.
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Lemur please define eventually. 10 times out of 10 in my 51D I can go screaming (400mph + tas) into the ack envelope at any enemy airbase and 10 times out of 10 I'm 1ping dead in less than 2 seconds. And no, I don't just fly straight at the ack. Matter of fact if I do fly nearly straight at the guns I don't get touched til I start jinking.
Once upon a time I had people asking me to teach them to deack a field by themselves in a fighter. I used to be damned good at it. Relied on high speed and jinking to come through and wipe out the acks at any field. But since the last change to them I avoid acks whenever possible.
The acks were FUBAR'ed along time ago and I don't expect they'll ever be fixed. For whatever reason HT seems to like them the way they are. Way back when I started a thread or two about the acks but they've been largely ignored.