Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vermillion on January 28, 2002, 06:44:10 PM
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Could someone please explain to me again why the F4U-4 is a perk plane? Or at the least a very high value perk plane in the arena?
This is an honest question, and not a crusade, so put the flame throwers away, and lets disucss this at least semi-rationally ;) After reading the performance thread, I really wonder.
Ok, typically planes are perked on the either the basis of production numbers, or performance, or date of delivery/combat.
So lets look at the F4U-4
Production numbers: 2,050
Now how many of these were before the end of WWII, I honestly don't know. Any information here is welcome. But its easy to see that this is a fairly sizeable production, if we look at other planes in AH thats not perked. Thats more than the Fw190D9, Me109K4 (I don't have exact numbers on the G10 that are reliable), N1K2, and the very low perk cost F4U-1C (I forget the numbers on the La7).
Performance:
Now I'm not going to roadkill anyone. The -4 is a very capable aircraft in the arena. But does it "over achieve" in any categories such that it dominates the arena, or has a combination of "great" abilities such that it would become too popular and again dominate by popularity (similar to the old -1C) ?
I guess for me, the prime attributes for an aircraft in the main arena are Top Speed, Deck Speed, Rate of Climb (also Acceleration), FirePower/Ammo, and Handling. I don't include things like sustained turn rate, since they are genearlly considered a moot point for late war 'high performance' planes.
Top Speed -- The dash 4 Corsair would be one of the fastest, but not "the" fastest non-perk plane. Its top speed of approx 445mph (according to AHT and Pyro, 452mph in F4UDOA's document) would make is slightly slower than the Me109G10, and very close to the P-51B, P-51D, and the Fw190D9. This is its best category.
Deck Speed -- Again, its very fast at 376mph, but there are a couple of faster non-perked planes. The La7 and the Fw190D9 are as fast or faster. While the Typhoon, the P-51D, the P-51B, the Yak-9U and several others are very very close.
Rate of climb (also Accel) -- Once more the dash 4 is respectable, but there are many better. At Sea Level its ROC is 3400 fpm at military power, and 3900 fpm at WEP. Of the similar aircraft we've been using so far... the La7, Fw190D9, and the Me109G10 are much much better. The Yak-9U is similar, while the P51D/B, Typhoon, and a couple of others are only slightly behind.
Firepower/Ammo -- I think we can all agree that the standard US 6 x .50's with a large ammo load, ranks average in this category. Some benefits, some drawbacks, generally falls in the middle. Its not a "laser armed" Tiffie, or a "spitwad armed" Yak-9U.
Handling -- Again, pretty good, but not the "best" in any category but slightly above average. Its pretty close to the Fw190D9, P-51D, Yak-9U, and the La7, in most categories. To be honest, the only aircraft thats not "in the middle of the pack" in this category (IMO) is the 109G10, which has poor handling overall.
Date of Delivery/Combat:
The F4U-4 Corsair was first accepted by the Navy in Sept. 1944, first delivery's to units in Dec. 1944, and its first combat was in April 1945 during the Okinawa campaign. Ok, no arguement that it arrived late in the war. But obviously the N1K2 and -1C were later, and the La7, the 109G10, and the190D9 served just a few months more. But admittedly this is one of the greatest reasons to perk the F4U-4.
OVERALLl: Ok, I've convinced myself, the F4U-4 while not the best in any category, is pretty high in all of them. This might fall into the "combination of abilities" that would make it very popluar. But its true that the Dora, La7, and P-51D also fall into the same "grey area".
IMO (let the flamethrowers be fueled and lit !!): The F4U-4 is not worth the current 60 perk points. Not even close. At the worst, it should be a low cost perk in the 10-15 point range.
Otherwise its just not worth it and I (and the rest of the populace) will just fly the Dora, P-51D, or the La7, for free like everyone else.
Ok I was bored tonight, can you tell? :p
PS: Yah gotta like it because its BLUUUUEEEE !!! :D
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Carrier capable, excellent ord, excelent high speed handling especially in roll, excellent survivablility. and it is blue...
None reasons for the cost but does seperate it from some of the planes you mentioned.
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Agreed. 60 Perks is way too much for a plane that is hardly better than most latewar non-perks. (I would take a La7 or Dora against a -4 anyday. If i get myself into trouble i'll simply dive away. At low alts those two have no problems handling a -4. imho of course :) )
It can operate off cvs and is a much better attack plane than these two. But who would take a F4U-4 sporting its ridicilous 'kill me' label (icon) for such a dirty work? It`s superior above 20k. Nice feature. But this has hardly any impact on the arena. And I doubt it's so much better than a B-Pony at alt. The bottom line is:
It might be worth flying if it either had a generic 'F4U' label or a lower price. I haven't seen a -4 in months so i guess we're not alone :D
LeitWolf
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Well i believe its faster than the P51 at all alts and climbs much better than the P51 at Hi altitudes as well.
Just for fun as a break from the F6F-5 when i feel everybody is just running away from me :) I will bring out the F4U-4 to get some high speed action in, now whilst getting over the shock of using a plane that is actually FAST i felt unbeatable in it. Get in real trouble just run away :)
For example I am 51 - 3 in it, 2 i believe were discos (17 this tour and counting) the other my stupidity for taking a snap HO with a P51 after running up 14 kills, luckily he died first so it was not recorded as a kill to the p51 :)
My Stats show 10 - 0 v the P51 in the F4U-4 this tour and most of them at Hi alt where the P51 jocks expect to rule.
My point is it is an extremely good aircraft flown correctly and definitely worth some serious perkies but 60 ? who knows.
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Never flown it, but never seen very many either-which is a shame. Cost definitely needs to be lower.
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F4u-4 is mediocre plane below 10k. It cant turn well, it will spin if you stall it, and has a very bad 6 view. I am willing to bet its acceleration is bad also. It should not be perked.
What do you call an F4u-4 at 5k with an La7 on its tail?
Dead.
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its all up to the pilot.
i found the -4 to be an outstanding plane. maybe the perk cost is a little high. but it deffinitely needs to be perked.
What do you call an F4u-4 at 5k with an La7 on its tail?
Dead.
not so...i ran into 3 la7's in a -4 the other day. out flew all 3 of em and killed em. the plane is way more capable than most people make it out to be. just have to fly it a few times and get the feel for it. plus the damn thing dives like a brick.
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Ive tried the -4 , its an amazing plane.
Its a P-51 with the accel of a tiffie and all the good qualities of the hogs. Its dive is impressive!
I agree that its high priced, it should be around 12 perks at best.
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Originally posted by Tac
Ive tried the -4 , its an amazing plane.
Its a P-51 with the accel of a tiffie and all the good qualities of the hogs. Its dive is impressive!
I agree that its high priced, it should be around 12 perks at best.
A couple of years ago, I had a nice long conversation with Brig. Gen. Ralph Jerome. General Jerome began his military aviation career with the RCAF in 1941, not willing to wait for the U.S. to get into the war. He flew Hurricanes and Spitfires before transferring to the USAAF in late 1942. He then accumulated time in the P-47 and P-51 before rotating back to the States. I believe that he finished the war with three aerial kills and five more destroyed on the ground.
After the war, in early 1950 (before the Korean War began), Jerome was still flying Air Guard P-51s. One afternoon, he ran across a Marine F4U-4 while out on a maintenance check flight. Both pilots took the opportunity to get in a little ACM practice and they went at each other on the merge, passing canopy to canopy. Jerome pulled around in a punishing turn, only to find the Corsair already had gained a slight advantage. Around they went, several times, with the Vought slowly gaining. Jerome split-S'd for the deck, but the Marine had no trouble keeping up. Now at tree top height, they rat-raced between hills, with Jerome's Mustang not able to gain any ground. So, he decided to take the contest vertical. That, he stated, "was a mistake." Within seconds the Corsair had closed up to within gun range. Rolling out at the top of a half loop, Jerome pops his maneuvering flaps and turns as hard as he can. Yet, the F4U is still there! Hanging on the edge of a stall, Jerome is amazed to watch the much larger and heavier Vought turn even tighter. Executing a hard reverse, he stares in disbelief as the Corsair snaps over in perfect firing position. "Bang, you're dead" come through his headset. Joining up, Jerome congratulates the young Marine pilot, commenting on the Corsair's remarkable performance.
Recalling the story, the General commented that he was disappointed that he was not flying his normal fighter, a P-51H. Jerome believes that the P-51H would have given him the edge in terms of pure performance.
Oh yeah, the name of the Marine pilot? Capt. John Glenn.
My regards,
Widewing
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Vermillion arent you one of the folks who would often link to website that said the F4U4 was the BEST fighter of the war?
What, did your ubernesss fantasies just not come true? How is this different than the stupid Ta152 whines?
Just shut up with the whining, OK?
Man I hate these whiners that bash HTC stuff.....
:D
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Hehehehe. What goes around comes around. Especially whines :D
Nevertheless, F4U-4 is overpriced. As is the Ta-152 and even the Tempest.
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WIDEWING, nice story thanks, but there was only one problem with it, it was a marine pilot vs a brand x pilot, unfair in my book regardless of what plane he flew, thanks.
November 10th 1775 my marine corps came alive.
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Verm, you are forgetting what, IMO, is the most important factor of all: acceleration (horizontal, climbing and diving).
Some days ago, StSanta and me did some acceleration tests at sea level with very fast planes (190D9, La7 and 109G10).
The result was that 109G10 seemed literally stopped in the air compared to La7, and 190D9 seemed stopped compared to G10.
The test was done starting at a low speed (about 250) mph, 75% fuel and going full MAN/WEP at the same time, not diving, just a race at level.
It should be interesting to test the F4U-4 in this aspect.
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Cavalier and PimpJoe, I would bet that if you flew the P-51 the same "I gotta save my 60 perks" style, you would do just as well in it. Knowing a plane is worth something makes us all much more cautious and fly a more conservative style.
Grunherz, no thats not me.
Mandoble, I didn't forget Acceleration. I mentioned it in the Climb category. Acceleration & Rate of Climb are directly and linearly related. Like I said earlier the La7, the Fw190D9, and the 109G10 are all MUCH better, while many others are nearly the same.
And I agree with you all that the Ta152 is overpriced as well. In fact, I wouldn't mind the Ta152 in the arena unperked. I think its perked purely for its rarity.
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what Mandoble said. Tried to fight it at alt with G10, and it literally ate me up. Accelleration seems as good or better than G10, handling at speed obviously way better, climb is excellent (comparable to G10) and armament capable and with excellent range (remember, .50s kills at 1K).
The ones i have met have all done high-g turns at speed, gotten on my six, caught up with me in a blink and killed me at 800 or more yards. There's no escape in diving, climbing or turning.
It's a nasty, mourderous 60 perks plane for sure.
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Verm, I've flown F4U4 mainly offline, never tried any real comparison test with it, but my impression is that this bird is superior to 190D9 in all and every category.
A normal F4U1D outdives, outturns and outzooms the 190D9, at hi speeds it also outrolls the Dora.
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Overpriced yes, a mediocre plane, no.
All F4u's turn great, specially for Being E fighter, get one notch flap out and it turns (almost) on a dime.
Should be around 15 IMO, while the TA152 should be unperked, or maybe 5.
Don't come say the TA152 is good at high alt, spit 9's beat it as easy at 40k as they do at 4k.
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Its cost is too much. Make the Spit and LA7 a 5 perk ride, then lower the F4U-4 to 25, and you'll have parity.
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Its cost is too much. Make the Spit and LA7 a 5 perk ride
where have I read something similar in the past?? ;)
I'll try it again, perk the spits!!
SpitV (Yep V)/ F4U4 / Yak9U / Typh 15 perks
SpitIX 10 perks
La7 / N1J2J 5 perks
Ok, ok, I'll be back to my lair in a sec ...
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
where have I read something similar in the past?? ;)
I'll try it again, perk the spits!!
SpitV (Yep V)/ F4U4 / Yak9U / Typh 15 perks
SpitIX 10 perks
La7 / N1J2J 5 perks
Ok, ok, I'll be back to my lair in a sec ...
You reverse that Spit V and Spit IX and I'll buy in.
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Cc Rip, Spit 9 more dangerous, Atleast you can usually dive away from the SPit 5 and the Spit 5 doesn't out perform a TA152 at 40k.
Yak 9U the best fighter in the game although slightly week guns.
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I never said it was a bad plane guys. And no its not mediocre either.
My point is that when compared to other "free" planes, its not worth its 60 point perk cost. To me, the F4U-4 is generally in the same class as the P-51D and the Fw190D9.
Mandoble, do some direct comparisons and look at the performance charts. The F4U-4 is better than the D9 at altitude, but down low the Dora is better (faster, better accel, and better climb). If your in a duel at medium altitude, its gonna come down to pilot quality.
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slightly week guns
Wilbus, while I totally agree that the Yak-9U is a joy to fly, this is a serious understatement.
The Yak-9U has the weakest gunset of all the late war fighters (the G10 has the 30mm option), and the smallest ammo load.
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Verm, I'll do some acceleration comparison tests at lo alt.
About the other two points, substained climb rate is, IMO, a secondary factor in combat, as well as top speed. Zoom climb, dive and acceleration are much more important. Not sure about acceleration at lo level, but F4U4 is better zoomer and diver for sure at any alt.
I insist about the spits, SpitV is better than IX. Same zoom climb, same amazing diving, same or almost same acceleration, but SpitV is much better turner.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Cc Rip, Spit 9 more dangerous, Atleast you can usually dive away from the SPit 5 and the Spit 5 doesn't out perform a TA152 at 40k.
Yak 9U the best fighter in the game although slightly week guns.
Well, I don't know about that.....
I fly the SpitV on a regular basis. I know of one P-38L and one P-47D-25 that tried to dive away from my Spit from altitudes of 18 and 12K respectively. Both found themselves back in the tower almost immediately. I nearly ran over the P-38, who I believe pulled off his power to avoid going straight into the ground. The T-bolt started his dive at well under 200 mph, and was unable to pull away enough to save his bacon. Spitfires do not display especially good dive acceleration, but can attain remarkable dive speeds, allowing them to gain on virtually anything in a prolonged dive. They appear to be modeled with a very high critical Mach limit. I'm sure I saw a true AS of nearly 600 mph on one occasion. At the altitude I was at, this translates into just about Mach .85! That's cooking!
As to 40k in a Mk.V: I can't imagine ever needing to go that high. However, at 25k it's still very formidable.
Here's a good one. Last evening I was having some fun with a Mk.V. Having just left the area of A5, I headed back for gas and ammo. Shortly there after, my doorbell rings. Figuring I'm at a reasonably safe distance from the Bishes, I hit the X key and go answer the door. When I returned, I found myself in the tower!. Somebody got a freebie. ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Verm, only difference between the G10 guns and YAK 9U guns is the ammo load, yes the G10 can mount a 30mm instead but it will have 60 rounds and a really sad trajectory. When it comes to guns, the Yak 9U is just as leathal as the 109 IMO.
With gondolas off of course, with them on the 109 looses its advantages.
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Thats the point though Wilbus.
The G10 has its "big gun" options that were available too it, and that gives it the edge in firepower. Don't even play the "horrible trajectory of the 30mm makes it useless" arguement, because I know for a fact that many of the Luftwaffe pilots use the 30mm religiously. Plus even in the "default" loadout, it has more ammo than the Yak-9U. And lets not even mention the fact that with Gondola's the G10 is still faster and climbs better than the Yak-9U.
The Yak-9U does not have its big gun options. How is a Me109G10/R6 any different than a Yak-9UT (terminology wise, or varient wise)? Pyro still hasn't explained that one.
Regardless, my original post stands. The Yak-9U does not have "slightly weaker guns". It has the weakest guns of all the late war fighters. Show me one aircraft in Aces High of the late war planes, that has weaker guns and less ammo than the Yak-9U.
Enough on this issue, this thread is about the F4U-4
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Don't agree with you on most of those points, use the 30mm sometimes, sometimes not.
But as you say, it's an F4u thread.
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The G10 really shouldnt have the 20mm gunpods option it was exceedingly rare on G10.
The 30mm is awesome but it takes time to learn, you never really aim your shots- it's more about feel when firing.
The F4U4 is a powerful plane, nuf said.
I dont know what you guys are doing wrong but I never had a Spitfire outdive me in any German plane even slower ones like the Bf109G6 and Fw190A5, in fact I almost dont care if Spits are a bit higher because I know I can outdive them if need be. I'll Just let Funked and his squad of Spitfires tell you about a chase all 6 of his Spit9s did of me in the old CT setup from 25K to the deck, they were higher than me and faster at start, it was close but I easily outdove all of them in my Bf109G6. In fact the Bf109G6 even outdives the Griffon powered Spit 14 until very high speeds are reached.
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Drop it lower say to 40 range, and drop the 152 down to a nice 10-15 as well. It isn't worth its weight in gold in there.
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Hey Verm :)
The F4u-4 was produced in mass numbers (your numbers are correct according to my source), however delievery must have been difficult-
By April of '45, 500 were delivered to the theatre.
That's odd, considering the first Deilvery was in December of the previous year....hmmmm.
Anyway-
The F4u-4 is a mighty powerhouse of an airplane- it has the new P&W2800-18Wradial- rated at 2100HP. Flown like an e-fighter, she should go all but untouched in the Main. I doubt anyone could stand up to a good Hawg pilot in her.
I'll be the first to admit- I'm savin up ma perks for this baby :D
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Flown like an e-fighter, she should go all but untouched in the Main. I doubt anyone could stand up to a good Hawg pilot in her.
Which main arena are you talking about??? Put a -4 over your icon, (you may not believe this) I bet you would actually get your butt gang banged!! LOL, man almost no fair fights exist in that place, (I so love a furball). Anyways...
Well, the real Corsair was a killer, with a claimed 11-1 K/D. The Marines loved it. A really great close air support plane for its day. U.S Marines were pioneers of Air/Ground tactics in Nicaragua, and the Air Wing has been a vital part of any Marine operation since WWII. We Marines on the ground in Viet Nam owed much (often our lives) to our Wingwiper buddies.
Now make what you want of the 11-1, yes it was mostly against A6M zeros etc etc. Still statistics are what you want them to be. The Corsair was a hell of plane, the big problem it has in AH is that it is an Allied plane.
I will get my butt reamed for this, but here goes. Understand that what I am saying is an observation, and not really meant to be pejorative :)
There is a large group (whatever that means, but not majority) in WWI/II flight sims who have a preference for German aircraft. Perhaps they see Germany as the underdog??? This group tends to be very vocal (vocal means they get heard not that they are dweebs) There is a widespread myth, probably stemming from the Red Baron Richtofen about the superiority of German pilots and planes. Certainly the Allies never produced any pilots whose numbers of kills approached a Harttmann. The allies never had (nor needed) a operational jet fighter. Certainly the Germans created some fine aircraft, and some fine pilots. But so did the allies. That the Germans did so well, I believe is more a demostration of the human spirit (however misdirected) than of the superiority of German planes/pilots. We know good and well that many of the German aircraft were shoddily made, with substandard materials do to time and the necessities of war.
I am given to understand, that one German squdron commander, when asked by Goering, what he (the squadron commander) needed to defeat the Brits in the Battle of Britian, replied "Give me Spitfires!"
None the less, the "Myth" is always stronger than the facts. That is the human experience. And where better to have reality your way than in virtual reality??? Therefore the vocal (remember what vocal means) group of German plane/pilots afficienados tend to be very well versed in plane performance, pilot performance, etc etc. Sim companies tend to listen to the more vocal, especially if they are articulate, and give them what they want. After all it is money that makes the monkey dance :)
That I believe is the main reason that we have a bunch of allied perked planes, and only a few Axis planes perked. Certainly the Dora is a great plane, but I donˇ't believe it should be perked. Nor do I believe that the F4U-4 should be perked either. Certainly no plane IMHO should be more than 10 pts other than the jets, and those maybe 25 pts max.
Your mileage will probably vary :)
AKEagle+
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akeagle, the brits had a jet too you know- the gloster meteor. Used mainly against v1-bombs, but also flew a few sorties over france looking for 262's to shootdown. They never found any fortunately for the pilots, the 262's would have eaten them up probably- but we'll never know.
Also it was Adolf Galland who said "get me spitfires", my computer plays a .wav of him saying it when my computer boots up.:)
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Originally posted by AKEagle+
I am given to understand, that one German squdron commander, when asked by Goering, what he (the squadron commander) needed to defeat the Brits in the Battle of Britian, replied "Give me Spitfires!"
Galland's account of that meeting, in his book The First and the Last, runs as follows:
"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Goering clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Me109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more manoeuvrable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Moelders asked for a series of Me109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. 'And you ?' Goering turned to me. I did not hesitate long. 'I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.' After blurting this out, I had rather a shock, for it was not really meant that way. Of course, fundamentally I preferred our Me109 to the Spitfire, but I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goering speechless. He stamped off, growling as he went."
(quote source:
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/misc/myths1.htm )
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What is a 'bunch' compared to 'hardly any'? The Ta-152 is perked, the Me-262 is perked, the Arado is perked. That is three. The Tempest is perked, the F4U-4 is perked. The F4U-1c was free, and it still would be if everyone and their mother hadn't decided that it offered the most advantages for the fewest disadvantages. So, unless I am missing a few perk planes, there are only 6 perked planes, and half of them are German. Guess our 'influence' isn't all THAT great, now is it?
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Two Jets which, if we are going to have a perk system, I guess should be on the list. [I personally say, let there be jets a plenty, keep the buffs off the fields so we can dogfight! :) ]
That leaves 1 German prop plane to 3 allied prop planes, and 2 of these are Corsairs! :)
Just tells you that the Corsair is one hell of a ride, both in the arena and real life. Remember the Marines flew 10 of thousands of close air support missions in Mig Alley in Korea, and survived quite well :) But personally I think a well flown late war model 190 like the Dora would out dogfight it, both in the arena and in real life. The Corsair was primarily a close air support machine, not a dogfighter per se. Why perk a Jabo???? Well...
[I am really not trying to start a fight here, but I think the F4U is getting a bit of a bum rap. Must be the Marine in me :) ]
HC will give us what they perceive the majority to want. After all, we vote with our participation (read money). If we all rose up and screamed that we want to eliminate the perk system or else, HC would eliminate the perk system. If we scream we want the F4 Wildcat perked, they'll perk it. :) We don't have to give reasons for it, just be vocal (again remember what I mean by vocal).
I guess HC perceives that the majority don't want a lot of Corsairs in the arena, at least not the ones that are better at dogfighting.
AKEagle+
3rd Mar Div, Vietnam, 69
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Could someone please explain to me again why the F4U-4 is a perk plane? Or at the least a very high value perk plane in the arena?
I think you make a good case here.......... certainly I too am at a loss as to why it should be perked differently to the -C.
I can only think of two reasons why it should be perked........
The first that it was very latewar before being put into combat in comparison with the bulk of the AH AC.........
The second is the obvious fact that it is bloo.......
but then I am not sure if either the above are the actual criteria used to decide an AC's perk status.
Tilt
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If the F4U-4 was not perked, it would probably become my main ride and I wouldn't sweat the LA7s (and Spits, Yaks and N1Ks) as much as I do now in my F4U-1 and F6F. I personally just do not see the F4U-4 being that dominant in the arena over LA7s, D9s and G10s. Either the F4U-4 should be unperked or some of those other rides need to have a few perks added. Just my $.02, and you know what little $.02 gets you in today's economy.
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Which main arena are you talking about??? Put a -4 over your icon, (you may not believe this) I bet you would actually get your butt gang banged!! LOL, man almost no fair fights exist in that place, (I so love a furball). Anyways...
When you select it, does it tell what type you're in? All I've ever seen is "F4U". No "-1d's, -1c's", or "-4's".
I'm talking about THE main. I never saw a subtype enemy plane icon- all 109's are "109" on my screen.....
And yeah, once people knew what you were flying, yeah- you'd get gangbanged- the secret is to take care of your plane and keep cool, and disengage when the situation calls for it.
Although a bunch of spits lurching after this thing with frothed mouths, wide eyes, and sweaty foreheads could make a great day for the lucky driver of the -4 hawg.
Now on to the Axis vs. Allies thing :D
There is a widespread myth, probably stemming from the Red Baron Richtofen about the superiority of German pilots and planes. Certainly the Allies never produced any pilots whose numbers of kills approached a Harttmann. The allies never had (nor needed) a operational jet fighter. Certainly the Germans created some fine aircraft, and some fine pilots. But so did the allies. That the Germans did so well, I believe is more a demostration of the human spirit (however misdirected) than of the superiority of German planes/pilots. We know good and well that many of the German aircraft were shoddily made, with substandard materials do to time and the necessities of war.
There are two reasons for the "Uber-aces" of Germany-
#1- they were fighting from home turf. They could bail out, and in all likeliehood, be back at their home base in less than 24 hours (maybe a little longer if they decided to raid a local bar n' brothel- I know I would!)
Look up Franz Stigler- the man was shot down 14 times!
#2- They couldn't stop flying until either they were dead, or the war was over. No tour of duties,
While I agree that there is a very vocal LW core group of people, and I see them citing the examples you speak of, I just wanted to set the record straight. The deck was stacked in favor of LW pilots that could afford to bail out.
I am given to understand, that one German squdron commander, when asked by Goering, what he (the squadron commander) needed to defeat the Brits in the Battle of Britian, replied "Give me Spitfires!"
I remember that- love that line. I also love the line "When I saw the Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the jig was up." -Herman Goering
Now on to this issue....
That I believe is the main reason that we have a bunch of allied perked planes, and only a few Axis planes perked. Certainly the Dora is a great plane, but I donˇ't believe it should be perked. Nor do I believe that the F4U-4 should be perked either.
Here's where you kind of lost me. What German planes are perked? The most noticiable are the 262, and the Ta-152H.
Both were extremley late getting into the war, and both were exceptionally rare to face in combat. I saw my frist 262 today, and thought that was the coolest thing- 2 bish's were flyin a pair of 262's, and rasin all sorts of cain! :D
The reasons for the perks are to keep balance in the arena, and to reflect the historical rarity of these machines. Their performance alone would cause a massive rift in the balance of the areana.
The Jet bomber is perked- for it's rarity alone.
As to the Allied perks- well, they're for much of the same reason- The F4u-4 would surely raise all sorts of hell in the arena should it be let out of the gates. I don't know too much about the Tempest, although I do know that it's extremely fast- anyone wanna clue me in on this bad boy?
Were you around when the F4u-1c wasn't perked? My God man, that's why I left! LOL :D
Certainly no plane IMHO should be more than 10 pts other than the jets, and those maybe 25 pts max
Actually, I think that would be a bad idea.....you have to work very hard to get your perks up to the point of purchasing a great plane. It promotes good flying, and the want to stay alive....the perk system solves a lot of problems inherent to any MMOFS.
Your mileage will probably vary
Yeah, a little. I hate uberplane dweebfests :):D
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For what it's worth, had Goering taken notice a few days earlier, he would have seen that the first escort fighters to loiter over Berlin were not Mustangs, but the P-38s of the 20th and 55th Fighter Groups.
Due to expected poor weather over the target, the bombers were recalled. However, the escorts never received the recall and continued to Berlin. There, they discovered clear skys and after loitering over the city for a short while, returned to Britain at low altitude, shooting up much rail and road transport as well as several unsuspecting airfields enroute.
Flying these low level return legs, the 20th FG earned their nickname as the "LocoBusters". Below, Arthur Heiden's P-38J-15-LO displays the tally board of many such missions.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
For what it's worth, had Goering taken notice a few days earlier, he would have seen that the first escort fighters to loiter over Berlin were not Mustangs, but the P-38s of the 20th and 55th Fighter Groups.
Due to expected poor weather over the target, the bombers were recalled. However, the escorts never received the recall and continued to Berlin. There, they discovered clear skys and after loitering over the city for a short while, returned to Britain at low altitude, shooting up much rail and road transport as well as several unsuspecting airfields enroute.
Flying these low level return legs, the 20th FG earned their nickname as the "LocoBusters". Below, Arthur Heiden's P-38J-15-LO displays the tally board of many such missions.
My regards,
Widewing
I dont have my reference handy but I think that P-47s have the distinction of being the first to fly over Berlin in WWII. I believe I read that in the Warren Bodie book.
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Rebel:
Well, you certainly present your case well sir :) I am sure any readers of this thread will appreciate the information you have given..
That I believe is the main reason that we have a bunch of allied perked planes, and only a few Axis planes perked. Certainly the Dora is a great plane, but I donˇ't believe it should be perked. Nor do I believe that the F4U-4 should be perked either.
Here's where you kind of lost me. What German planes are perked? The most noticiable are the 262, and the Ta-152H.
The reasons for the perks are to keep balance in the arena, and to reflect the historical rarity of these machines. Their performance alone would cause a massive rift in the balance of the arena.
My point, while not particularly well presented is that the 190 D9 is a awesome plane, with great performance and guns. While I can’t prove this as I am not a particularly good pilot, I believe that given two pilots that can push both a 190 D9 and F4U-4 to the limits, the Dora should emerge the victor in most 1 on 1s. Yet we do not see an arena full of Doras.
I do not feel that the –4 would fill the arena either, especially with the armament of 6 50 cals. Tank busting, PT and general GV killing tends to favor a plane with cannons. The armament of the –4 does not lend it self to one burst kills at 400 yds like the Hispanos of the F4U-C. I understand the animosity of many to the Cannon Hawg, I played in here about 1 ˝ years ago, and I loved the F4U-C. But there is a tendency to dislike a plane that can give you a snout full of 20 mms from your 11 to 1 while in a turn or at a merge. I believe that is the main source for the term “Spit Dweeb” and a major cause of dislike for the NIK2. I think that the F4U-4 would not be so lethal, and therefore be less used than a non-perked C Hawg. Probably less common than the NIK2, Spit MK9, or 190D9. Man fly over a field that is being vulched and count the Spits and NIKIs down there! :)
The Jet bomber is perked- for it's rarity alone.
Certainly no argument there :) With my limited understanding of WWII ( I am a WWI aviation buff with no place to fly) the 262 was used primarily as a bomber-interceptor.
As to the Allied perks- well, they're for much of the same reason- The F4u-4 would surely raise all sorts of hell in the arena should it be let out of the gates.
See above :)
I don't know too much about the Tempest, although I do know that it's extremely fast- anyone wanna clue me in on this bad boy?
Again the guns make this one mean puppy, and fast, maneuverable etc etc. This is one prop ride where you may have a good case for perking :)
Were you around when the F4u-1c wasn't perked? My God man, that's why I left! LOL
Again, no reason to tar the -4 with Cannon Hawg brush :)
Your mileage will probably vary
Yeah, a little. I hate uberplane dweebfests
And I sir am an obsessive-compulsive furballer. Anyways, my therapist says it is OK! :D
C U on my 6! :)
AKEagle+
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I dont have my reference handy but I think that P-47s have the distinction of being the first to fly over Berlin in WWII. I believe I read that in the Warren Bodie book.
I'm afraid that can't be. There was no way that the any of the old razorback T-Bolts could make to Berlin circa March/April 1944. Only after the D-25 showed up could the P-47 penetrate beyond Hanover. Even then, getting to Berlin and back would have pushed endurance to the limit.
According to Bodie, referring to the P-47D-22 and -23:
"but even they were not capable of flying as far east as Berlin from the U.K. Only P-38s and P-51B/Ds demonstrated such capability in the Spring of 1944." Page 332, of his Thunderbolt book.
Now, if the P-47N had been in the ETO, that would be different as the big N had slightly better range than the P-51D of the P-38L.
My regards,
Widewing
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Good post verm,
Well presented.
And I agree,
eskimo
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Welp, here I am Eagle :)
On to the discussion!
Well, you certainly present your case well sir I am sure any readers of this thread will appreciate the information you have given
First off, have to thank ya for that :) So, thanks!
My point, while not particularly well presented is that the 190 D9 is a awesome plane, with great performance and guns. While I can’t prove this as I am not a particularly good pilot, I believe that given two pilots that can push both a 190 D9 and F4U-4 to the limits, the Dora should emerge the victor in most 1 on 1s. Yet we do not see an arena full of Doras.
True, to an extent. The Dora requires the types of skills that aren't very prevalent in the Main arena. It has a flight envelope that rewards a type of flying that not a lot of guys know how to do- hence the non balance issue. It doesn't need to be balanced, because the average Joe cannot bring her to her full potential. Hence the no-need for the perk on the Dora. An argument *could* be made that the Dora was rare enough to warrant a perk of say 5-10 points, but it would be a moot point, as you don't see that many out there anyway.
But the -4, on the other hand, has a performance range that enables it to yank, bank, climb, twist and twirl in the midst of a furball, and has a dual stage supercharged 2100 HP P&W to make it happen. What this means is that she can recover energy just as fast as she can spend it, which translates into an airplane that can keep her speed under even the most extreme of circumstances. The -1D requires a very steady hand, and a wise Energy concious pilot to keep her speed up, and if the pilot is good enough to do that, ol' big n' blue will reward him with 5-10 kill missions regularly.
The 4 bladed prop, coupled with a better engine (supercharger only adds to the mayhem :D ), gives the F4u-4 a perforance portfolio of a supermodel. She so out shines her opposition, that it needs to be perked.
I do not feel that the –4 would fill the arena either, especially with the armament of 6 50 cals. Tank busting, PT and general GV killing tends to favor a plane with cannons. The armament of the –4 does not lend it self to one burst kills at 400 yds like the Hispanos of the F4U-C.
Here's where the splittin' hairs begins. First off, the F4u-4 was THE rarest of the Hawgs to see action (unless a few of the Fg-1/2 super corsairs saw some action). So right there, you've got an argument for a perk due to it's limited service. Although with over 500 in theatre (a number to the tune of twice as many Doras- I *think*- LW guys correct me if I'm wrong!), it could be argued that a perk is not needed, as the Dora is not.
It isn't the armament that makes this plane need to be perked. It's her sheer outrageous performance that makes the perk neccessary. Once everyone got a taste of her, even the most devout cannon potato would at least nod their head in acknowledgement of her performance.
Regarding the armament- the 50cals, IMHO, are simply the best weapon in AH, just as I will argue of the RL WW2, and I'll tell ya why- first off, one well placed burst at 400-600 yards WILL kill just about anything. In my P51, all I need is a shot into the wingroot, or the tailfeathers, and only a 1/2 second to make it in, and the con is going down. While it may not be as glorious as the super blender Hispano Mk2 (or the super smashing MG151/20mms), it's enough to reward me with high kill sorties.
On to the ground attack thing- the -4 hawg, I believe, wouldn't be used for ground attack, I agree, but for many different reasons. This is the Fighter pilots Hawg. I wouldn't be caught dead taking a -4 hawg to a ground attack mission. It wouldn't be proper! ;) I have the -1d and the -1C with her cannons for that.
And you're right- 6 50 cals just ain't got the punch to kill a vehicle. But then again, just as you said, that's what the cannon hawg is for- this hawg is for fighter pilots only. Jabos need not apply :D
I played in here about 1 ˝ years ago, and I loved the F4U-C. But there is a tendency to dislike a plane that can give you a snout full of 20 mms from your 11 to 1 while in a turn or at a merge. I believe that is the main source for the term “Spit Dweeb” and a major cause of dislike for the NIK2
Well, the main reasons for the term "Spit Dweeb" comes from Warbirds (where the founders and many of their customer base come from). The thing you have to understand about the Spit is she's an excellent aircraft, and rewards the type of flying that you see most often in MMOFS(Massive Multiplayer Online Flight Simulation) arenas. She's got a decent head of steam, holds her speed remarkably well, can turn and climb with the best of them, and has a good punch in the way of her 2 hispanos. She's also EXTREMELY easy to fly. This allows the newer pilots to do well- the only problem is that newer pilots have a tendency to find one plane they like, and as such stick to the Spitfire- the first plane they could do well in. Hence the term "Spit Dweeb". A Spit dweeb is a guy who flies spits only for her forgiving nature, great firepower, and good performance- and for lack of knowing anything different.
She's a sweetheart of a plane, and if you tail me long enough, you'll catch me in a furball with my beloved Mk9 from time to time. I suggest you try her out. My love affair with her started in Feburary of 1997, when I started flying :)
The Niki, on the other hand, is for all intensive purposes, is the Axis' Spitfire. No, I don't know that much about her, no I have never really flown her, and yes, she can be a royal pain in the arse if you underestimate her. All I know is she can climb well, turn on a dime, and can knock ya outta the sky pretty quick.
And the 20mm's can be either very satisfying, or very aggrivating. I know I love it when a plane breaks apart on contact, or just explodes, but I also hate it when it happens to me :D
It's a love-hate relationship. Add this to the fact that I can't hit a damn thing with 'em (the 20mm's), and you see where I'm coming from.
I think that the F4U-4 would not be so lethal, and therefore be less used than a non-perked C Hawg. Probably less common than the NIK2, Spit MK9, or 190D9. Man fly over a field that is being vulched and count the Spits and NIKIs down there!
The first part of this argument holds true to an extent- it would be seen less then a non-perked Cannon hawg, but only for the sheer fact that she doesn't have the firepower. The purist fighter pilots would flock to the -4 hawg with wide open arms, and drooling jawlines, however.
As to the second part, eh....I see less F4u's then I thought I would. There are a few, but even now, they are less then the NIK, the Spit, but more then the Dora. I don't see all that many 190's flyin around....a true pity. Simply a remarkable aircraft, the 190 is. I took the occasional flight of fancy with her, and liked what I saw, but my sheer lack of ability to wield 20mm's caused me to look to the Allied side of things :)
Now as to your vulched field....
When vulching a field, you're looking for a specific set of aircraft performance traits- these are:
#1) A good turning ability (to bring your firepower to bear on the next poor soul trying to take off)
#2) Good low alt-performance (an aircraft that can do about 300-400 knots at sea level gives you the option of disengaging at will)
#3) A good E-retention quality (This translates into an aircraft that can hold her speed in a turn, and maneuvers. Spit is a great aircraft in this respect, NIK too, I believe)
#4) Good firepower (for getting all those kills!)
The Spit and the Niki fit this profile almost to a T. Hence the massive numbers once the vulch light is lit.
With my limited understanding of WWII ( I am a WWI aviation buff with no place to fly) the 262 was used primarily as a bomber-interceptor.
If you're a WWI nut, you should try out Dawn of Aces over in Warbirds country. The numbers are a lil' shallow, but you won't find a better old fashioned dogfight on the net.
Regarding the 262- Hitler actually insisted that it be used first as a ground attack platform, believe it or not. It was only later that he found out that it was damn near useless in this role, and allowed it to go to bomber interception.
A little trivia perk here- In late 1942/early 43, there were 2 prototypes of the Me-262 sitting in a factory, complete with plans. A bombing raid on the factory destroyed most everything, and set the development schedule back about 6-8 months. Imagine if by mid-43, the LW had the 262's! Would have made for a VERY different war.
Again the guns make this one mean puppy, and fast, maneuverable etc etc. This is one prop ride where you may have a good case for perking
Well, I can see your point, but the -4 Hawg has all of this, sans 20mm's. So I make my performance argument (as stated above).
Again, no reason to tar the -4 with Cannon Hawg brush
Never was my intention to that effect. I'm simply stating a case that for perfomance reasons alone, the -4 Hawg is perked, and deservedly so. That's all :)
And I sir am an obsessive-compulsive furballer. Anyways, my therapist says it is OK!
Well if that's the case, I'd get a second opinion if I were you! :D
But, different strokes for different folks- I'm a man who prefers the Energy fight, and generally stick to my Mustangs and Thunderbolts. Occasional Corsair flights tossed in, with the rare Spit 9 flight o' fancy (there IS something to be said about a furball after all, ya know!)
Nice discussion, 'mano!
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Nice pic widewing, really didn't realise how massive the jug was. That crane in the background used to hoist pilots into their cockpits?:D :D
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Originally posted by thrila
Nice pic widewing, really didn't realise how massive the jug was. That crane in the background used to hoist pilots into their cockpits?:D :D
There's a funny story about the arrival in Australia of the 5th Air Force's first P-47D-5s. Landing at an RAAF field near Darwin, a P-47 taxis in and shuts down. RAAF ground crews meet it for refueling.
As the Jug's pilot climbs out and slides to the ground off the lowered flap, he observes one Australian staring at the massive fighter. Walking over to the pilot the Aussie says, "G'day Sir, glad to have you visit us."
"Glad to be here." replies the pilot.
With a hint of mischief in his voice, the Aussie asks, "By the way Sir, where's the rest of your crew?";)
In the picture, armorers are setting gun zeros and convergence.
Note the extra-wide stance of the P-47N, having the landing gear displaced further out by the wing inserts at the root, where fuel tanks now reside.
My regards,
Widewing
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Rebel is right about the F4U-4. :) Although I too think some perked planes are mis-valued. Not that any perk plane should be unperked.
And thanks for the 47 info and story. :)
Westy
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I guess I'm a Hog Dweeb, once I got in the seat of one I find it hard to get into anything else, especially the -4 :), although I do enjoy a number of smooth rides in the game. From an AH Newbie standpoint, I dont mind the 60 points it takes to roll one out. It just makes us all better pilots, and coming from the online combat Hell that was AW, I like the emphasis on learning to fly AND landing your points, and not the trash talking, F6-to-30k, alt-monkeying, cherry-picking, blow E-then-auger-fest / vulch-o-rama it turned into towards the end.
(wow...someone's bitter!) :D
Looking 4 ward to my -4 ride!
Gainsie
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'm afraid that can't be. There was no way that the any of the old razorback T-Bolts could make to Berlin circa March/April 1944. Only after the D-25 showed up could the P-47 penetrate beyond Hanover. Even then, getting to Berlin and back would have pushed endurance to the limit.
According to Bodie, referring to the P-47D-22 and -23:
"but even they were not capable of flying as far east as Berlin from the U.K. Only P-38s and P-51B/Ds demonstrated such capability in the Spring of 1944." Page 332, of his Thunderbolt book.
Now, if the P-47N had been in the ETO, that would be different as the big N had slightly better range than the P-51D of the P-38L.
My regards,
Widewing
I thought it was at Big week, and thereafter that t-bolt uniots had access to the big 150 gallon fuel tanks which would allow them to go the distance.
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Rebel:
Well, I learned a long time ago that when you are being outmaneuvered, split S, dive to the deck and run like a scalded dawg :)
You obviously have a better understanding of the culture of AH than I do. And believe me the culture determines what is “realistic”, the rules etc etc. Also, you have a better understanding of the planes of WWII. I think it would be best to graciously bow out, and run like hell :D
However, this is a discussion, and not a debate, so give me this. The F4U was a major contributor to the Allied war effort. Mostly US, but also the Brits and perhaps some others? The present system of perking the F4U has made it pretty scarce in the arena. My biggest gripe with the F4U D is the acceleration under 200 mph, (comes out of the starting gates like a turtle). Once you are low and slow, you are just a target. While that is true in any plane, it is especially true in the F4U D. When I am flying a Spit, I just drool over low F4s! :)
Something needs to be done to get more F4Us in the arena, and the present way of perking 2 of them doesn’t seem to be answer. There has to be some way of balancing an over abundance of F4Us and a low number of the puppies.
On the aside, I logged on last night as soon as we got back from Church. Thought I’d get in a couple of quick sorties, and contribute to someone’s kill buffer ;)
I looked at the map, and it looked like a small number of planes just outside our one of our bases, not a massive furball, just a few planes. So I took off in a Hawg, as I figured that the fight would be low ( they usually are) and I would dive in with a bit speed and make a nuisance of myself. As I approached the fight they had alt, but were still out of icon range. Not to worry someone would dive down to the deck and I proceeded in. Icons come into range, and Oh Oh! Two Ponys playing “Whack-a-Mole”. And I get to be the Mole! LOL. Well, I came to dance, and besides, I’d rather crash the puppy than fly it home! :)
So I start to dance with 2 Ponys, a pesky 234 Jet Bomber and another of my team. He gets shot up, and the Ponys slaver and drool over me. One dives on me, I maneuver out of the way, and get him on my 12 so I can watch him and recover some speed. Oh Oh! Only two red dots on the dar (234 n Pony on my 12)??? Where is that other Pony? He was 5K back I thought, checked 6, 6high 3 hi, 9hi, nope not there. Hmmm, check dar… Wonder if he is gone or on my low 6? About then my question was answered as a stream of 50s fly past me, not sure if I’m hit (I didn’t have my headset on LOL), I roll, but the Pony isn’t that fast, he rolls and turns me to Swiss cheese, I didn’t need a headset to figure out that I had been hit bad, and I didn’t need to check Cntr D either! LOL!!. The guy who gets me is named Rebel 352 (?) I didn’t occur to me that it was thee Rebel of this thread yet :)
So I walk back to base with my privates in a paper bag, and go to the hanger to check out another kite (my crew chief was NOT impressed). Well, considering this discussion thread, I thought, “lets see how the Dora does in the same situation.” Well I truck back out to the Ponies, and we continue, Reb dives on me I duck , stall the Dora, and die quite quickly LOL!!. About then I get a message on Chanl 1 now I hardly ever read, as it takes too much from my SA but I was walking back to the hangar so I had time. WOW the Rebel of this discussion, I thought, And a great Pony pilot to boot! I though, Spit or NIK???? Well, I fugured I’d last a little longer against a Pony in a NIK. Besides I wanted to see how this guy flew that Pony so well.
Back to the dance floor, this time in a NIK. The Ponys dive on me, and I dodge. I am not really trying to shoot them down, after all what they wanted was for me to extend, sit slow and vertical on one Ponys six, as the other turned me into Sushi. I didn’t want to HO them either, as this was great fun, how long could I last??? We danced a bit, a F6F came in, I got the poor sot, and managed to barely avoid the enevitable Pony diving on me. I thought I could get by with the extension and I did! LOL. We danced a bit more, and then they both flew off, I think to get a coffee and fuel. Rebel was coming back to give me another lesson, but I had to go to sleep :(
I mean a loving wife and family, coupled with a steady job are the curse of every sim pilot :(
All I all a great although short, time in the arena :)
BTW I tried Dawn of Aces, not my cup of tea. No need to bash it, It just didn't resonate with me.
Salute Reb! :)
AKEagle+
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Well,
Not to cloud this discussion with numbers and data, but has anyone looked at the performance of the F4U-4 compared to other planes in the arena? Myself, being a pony pilot, compared the F4U-4 (both online and offline) to the 51D. Here are some of the numbers I found.
50% fuel, 10k alt
51D
Starting at 200ias and 10k alt it took 16 sec to reach 400 ias with a final altitude of 5k (zero g's load).
Starting at 200ias in level flight it took 25 sec to reach 250 ias at 10k alt.
Starting at 250ias in level flight it took 42 sec to reach 300 ias at 10k alt.
50% Fuel, 10k alt
F4U-4
Starting at 200ias and 10k alt it took 16 sec to reach 400 ias with a final altitude of 5k (zero g's load).
Starting at 200ias in level flight it took 27 sec to reach 250ias at 10k alt.
Starting at 250ias in level flight it took 51 sec to reach 300ias in at 10k alt.
Myself, I see no reason to fly the F4U-4. The pony is the same or better for the type of fighting the plane is intended for, IMO. The F4U-4 *is* a big improvement over the -1 and -1D both in climbing and acceleration. However, don't get it too close to La7's and spit9's or you will loose 60 perk points.
Regards,
Ledz
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Originally posted by stantond
Well,
Myself, I see no reason to fly the F4U-4. The pony is the same or better for the type of fighting the plane is intended for, IMO.
Regards,
Ledz
Ahh but its got a radial, and a R2800 at that. Those candypants types that fly a watercooled AC are inferior:)
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Well, I learned a long time ago that when you are being outmaneuvered, split S, dive to the deck and run like a scalded dawg
No need, amigo- it's simply a discussion between friends, as far as I'm concerned. You've brought stuff to the table I didn't know about, and I think you've learned a few things as well.
Thanks for a most positive and thought engaging discussion :)
You obviously have a better understanding of the culture of AH than I do. And believe me the culture determines what is “realistic”, the rules etc etc. Also, you have a better understanding of the planes of WWII. I think it would be best to graciously bow out, and run like hell
It isnt' that I understand the culture of AH better, it's the same all over the place. Your average pilot isn't looking to go out, make 5 kills, then come home, he's looking for the easy big boom.
But, every community has their different "features". One thing I've noticed about AH over the years, is that chute shooting is simply THE most hated practice in the world. In Warbirds country, it ain't that big of a deal, but vulching used to be just as hated as chute shootin' here. Different communities spawn different attitudes. But one thing remains constant- the furballer will always outnumber the E-fighter.
As to the understanding of WW2 planes, thanks, I've been studying them for a long time, and to be frank, I had to look up some of that info :)
No need to run like hell- I think all that happened is you were made aware of a few things that you didn't know before. This happened to me today when I took my mother to the doctor. I read an article in news week about why the middle eastern Arabs hate America and the Western world so much. VERY enlightening.
However, this is a discussion, and not a debate, so give me this. [/b]
Agreed- FIRE AWAY!
The F4U was a major contributor to the Allied war effort. Mostly US, but also the Brits and perhaps some others?
Absolutely. A true shining star of the PTO- sporting an 11:1 KTD ratio, and the performance that the American and Australian/some British groups pilots needed to defeat the Empire's best aircraft.
The present system of perking the F4U has made it pretty scarce in the arena
Correction- perking of the F4U-1C and the F4u-4 have made them pretty scarce.
Generally, the formula goes that the harder the plane is to fly, the less of them you'll see in the arena. Believe it or not, back in the day in WB's, 109's were VERY hard to do well in. Generally you'd see like maybe 1 or 2 in the furball, and you'd know to watch them with a careful eye.
Like I said before- the F4U doesn't reward a yank-n-banker. It rewards a patient fighting style, and a steady, steady hand.
My biggest gripe with the F4U D is the acceleration under 200 mph, (comes out of the starting gates like a turtle). Once you are low and slow, you are just a target. While that is true in any plane, it is especially true in the F4U D. When I am flying a Spit, I just drool over low F4s!
Oh yeah, absolutely! The F4u-D's acceleration is nothing to crow about, that's for sure. Try taking up a Jug into a low alt furball some time- you'll get much the same result! (Do NOT ask me how I know this ;) )
The F4u excels at high speed maneuvering, but with a gentle hand. Slashing attacks from a position of advantage, and carefully planned reversals are all the Hawg driver needs to take home a buncha scalps.
Something needs to be done to get more F4Us in the arena, and the present way of perking 2 of them doesn’t seem to be answer. There has to be some way of balancing an over abundance of F4Us and a low number of the puppies.
Well.....I dunno about unperking any of 'em......but maybe lowering the -4's perk to 30 would yield results. But the thing also stands true- not that many people do well in the 1D hawg, so why try the others?
I'm actually VERY surprised that I don't see C Hogs at all. Maybe that 8 points is a lil' too much......or maybe the guys who all flew 'em are stuck in their spits gettin vulched and don't have the perks.
Maybe a well advertised "Hawg training night" or something.....Any of the VMF groups care to comment?
On to the dogfight :)
The other guy I was flying with was a decent driver, but he had a knack for getting into a sticky wicket. I just love it when the bad guys get fixated on one or two other people- makes my life a LOT easier!
He was 5K back I thought, checked 6, 6high 3 hi, 9hi, nope not there. Hmmm, check dar… Wonder if he is gone or on my low 6?
About here you had a Pony comin in at about 450 knots on your low six- I adjusted rudder, and let loose a burst.....
About then my question was answered as a stream of 50s fly past me, not sure if I’m hit (I didn’t have my headset on LOL), I roll, but the Pony isn’t that fast, he rolls and turns me to Swiss cheese, I didn’t need a headset to figure out that I had been hit bad, and I didn’t need to check Cntr D either! LOL!!. The guy who gets me is named Rebel 352 (?) I didn’t occur to me that it was thee Rebel of this thread yet
The Pony WAS going that fast :) What I did was I used vertical seperation to eat up the extra speed, brought it back around on a PROPERLY set up rear shot and got your tail section :)
So I walk back to base with my privates in a paper bag
LOL! That's rich! I'm saving that one for my "Fave Quotes"!
and we continue, Reb dives on me I duck , stall the Dora, and die quite quickly LOL!!.
Oh my god dude, you have NO idea what I went through. Again, I lag rolled, and brought it around, only this time to a Dora standing on her tail, barely moving. Now I'm going 300 knots, and I have to do something quick as the range is closin in on 300 already- I aimed square for the cockpit and let her rip- thank god you exploded. I woulda collided with you.
Although, it was pretty cool, feelin like Wedge Antilles savin Luke (my other P51 friend) from that nasty TIE, and blastin straight through the guts of im :D
Back to the dance floor, this time in a NIK.....
After you blew up and were starting your engine, I decided I'd had enough (fuel was starting to be a concern, so I whipped a 180, and headed home). I dove for the deck, made max speed, and got up to pour myself a cup of coffee. This is where ya got your kills, and I was rearming.
As I'm comin back, you leave.....and well, it just wasn't as much fun without ya bro :)
I mean a loving wife and family, coupled with a steady job are the curse of every sim pilot
Argh! :P
BTW I tried Dawn of Aces, not my cup of tea. No need to bash it, It just didn't resonate with me
'ey, 'es not for everybody, no? 'es okay amigo :)
Salute Reb!
Right back at ya, bro :)
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Since we are on the topic of F4U's,
Anyone else notice the tendency of the -1C and -4 to break landing gear? It appears that if you apply the brakes too soon (quickly?) you break the left strut. I have not had this problem in any plane except the F4U-1C and F4U-1D.
Btw, it doesn't stop you from landing safely, you just can't rearm.
Ledz
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Rebel,
You were wondering about the Fw190D-9 production run. 674 Fw190D-9s were built. This compares nicely with the Tempest MkV Series II (the type we have in AH) that entered RAF service at roughly the same time, of which 700 were built.
About the Corsair, I have found the F4U-1D to be a very good fighter when flown as an energy fighter. I find that it is easier than the Fw190D-9 to get kills in. I have had vastly less success with the F4U-4. The icon over it makes it frusterating. That is why I don't fly many perk planes. They just aren't fun for me because of the "Gang bang the perk plane" action that always occurs. The price is not the issue.
The F4U-1C doesn't have this problem, but I'm not a big F4U fan and I like the F4U-1C least of all 4 F4Us in AH.
In Tour 24:
The C.205 has 5151 kills and has been killed 5857 times.
The F4U-1C has 5139 kills and has been killed 2436 times.
I see the 205 fairly often and I don't think that the 205 is anymore than twice as common as the F4U-1C. I think we see them more often than we tink and just assume that they are F4U-1Ds. You have to get close to see the difference and if it is merely an F4U icon that we never personally fight in a big melee we can't tell what kind it is.
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Heya Karnak! :)
You were wondering about the Fw190D-9 production run. 674 Fw190D-9s were built. This compares nicely with the Tempest MkV Series II (the type we have in AH) that entered RAF service at roughly the same time, of which 700 were built.
Thanks- I always wondered how many were actually built.
Now for the big question- how many of them saw combat? (both types, if you have the numbers)
The production numbers can be a bit misleading, but I'm willin to put money down that a higher percentage of Doras saw combat then the Tempests (the war was already going so well, no need to throw the latest-greatest fighter in your stable out into combat- just a few for combat trials would make more sense)
About the Corsair, I have found the F4U-1D to be a very good fighter when flown as an energy fighter
Oh, absolutely! I LOVE the design of the Hawg. They traded a little bit of speed for some maneuverability, and made a wicked combination.
I find that it is easier than the Fw190D-9 to get kills in
Now is this because you too are a poor shot with 20mm like me, or do you find the Dora's peak performance envelope more difficult to stick to and get kills?
I have had vastly less success with the F4U-4. The icon over it makes it frusterating. That is why I don't fly many perk planes. They just aren't fun for me because of the "Gang bang the perk plane" action that always occurs. The price is not the issue.
So there IS an "F4u4" icon over the -4 hawg? That changes things a bit. I was under the impression that it just said "F4u" under it.
If this is the case, an argument could be raised for removing that icon, and keeping the standard "F4u" over it. In fact, I think that would make things a LOT more interesting.
Regarding other perk planes- well, it wouldn't really apply to them, as they all have their distinctive silhouettes. A 262 looks very very distinctive, as do the Ta152H, and the Arado. But an F4U? I'd have a hard time telling the three apart in actual combat, so I would just as soon dump that icon.
The F4U-1C doesn't have this problem, but I'm not a big F4U fan and I like the F4U-1C least of all 4 F4Us in AH
Totally agree here.
I see the 205 fairly often and I don't think that the 205 is anymore than twice as common as the F4U-1C. I think we see them more often than we tink and just assume that they are F4U-1Ds. You have to get close to see the difference and if it is merely an F4U icon that we never personally fight in a big melee we can't tell what kind it is.
I think this point is a very good one, and have to wholeheartedly agree here. I think that the F4u4's icon is removing half the joy of taking the fighter out of the hanger. I could see many frustrated hawg drivers out there just itchin' for a chance to really surprise somebody, hehehe :)
Now that I think about it, I bet most Hogs I see would be F4u1C's. I mean, take into effect that the average joe doesn't know how to E-fight, and DOES know that 4 20mm cannons (escpecially hispanos) is a LOT of firepower....
Whadda you think? Kinda hard to tell.....I wish it was the same with the F4u-4.
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Now for the big question- how many of them saw combat? (both types, if you have the numbers)
The production numbers can be a bit misleading, but I'm willin to put money down that a higher percentage of Doras saw combat then the Tempests (the war was already going so well, no need to throw the latest-greatest fighter in your stable out into combat- just a few for combat trials would make more sense)
The Tempest started production well before the Dora, in the summer of 43, and the first prototype flew in summer 42, so there had been plenty of time for flight trials before they entered service in spring 44.
I don't know how many actually saw combat, but the RAF had a desire to convert as many Typhoon squadrons to Tempests as possible.
Tempests were very active in RAF service, and losses to flak were high.
Given the fuel situation in the Luftwaffe, I'd be willing to bet Tempests accumulated more hours on active duty during the war than Doras did.
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Yes, as far as I know, the -1C is the only perk plane without a "perk icon tag". So we don't notice it as much and people don't all try to gangbang it like they do -4's, Ta152s, Tempests, and 262's
Ledz, nice work on the accel tests. Mandoble and I were discussing this the other night, and I didn't have the time to do controlled tests with him.
Your also right about the gear problem on the whole Corsair series. Actually the problem is that they have a tendency to ground loop as you brake, which causes lateral stress on the gear and it breaks. What you need too do is keep back pressure on the joystick until you have almost stopped the aircraft on the runway. This will stop the ground looping.
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You know, I had never flown a F4U-4 so I decided to try it out last night to see what all the fuss is about. I gotta say the same thing...Why is this thing perked at 60 points? Should be 10 points at the most, and maybe even less. I'm pretty sure a La7 outperforms it at most MA alts.
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Perk points aren't just about performance, no? I reckon the F4u-4 was a rarity in WW2 in general, thus it has a price to make it rare in the arena, at least that's what it appears that HTC is trying to do with the perk system. It's probably a combination of performance vs abundance (there's a word I haven't used in a long time! hehehe)
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The F4u-4 is far superior to the Ta152 so perking it at 10 points when the TA is at 30 would be 100% wrong IMO.
It's fast and accels good, bout same speed as the 109 G10 at the deck and climbs fairly well. But not worth 60 either IMO.
Wells, like so many others have said, inlcuding me, the rarity of a plane SHOULD be of no meaning considerin the MA doesn't have a single historical thing what so ever in it, expcet the fact that there are WW2 planes.
So, if a plane only flew in numbers bellow 10, but sucked bad, it shouldn't be perked IMO.
Wish HTC would perk them because of overuse or superior performance only.
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Heya Wells, long time no CC, eh? :)
Perk points aren't just about performance, no? I reckon the F4u-4 was a rarity in WW2 in general, thus it has a price to make it rare in the arena, at least that's what it appears that HTC is trying to do with the perk system. It's probably a combination of performance vs abundance (there's a word I haven't used in a long time! hehehe)
Well yeah, that makes sense- I pretty much have the same idea on it.
Maybe Performance/abundance ^2 = Perk? :D
Now on to Wilbus- heya! ;)
The F4u-4 is far superior to the Ta152 so perking it at 10 points when the TA is at 30 would be 100% wrong IMO.
Okay guys- I've only restarted flying AH in like the past 3 days. I am SERIOUSLY gonna get out there and do some gameplay tests after I get my perk points, hehehe!.
I have no idea how the F4u-4 operates in the Arena, but I'm pretty sure it's a mean sucker to come across- as is the Ta-152H.
Wish HTC would perk them because of overuse or superior performance only
Ya see, the only problem here is that the really rare late war planes WOULD be superior performers. Maybe the rarity is just an added perk to the perk system? :)
So, if a plane only flew in numbers bellow 10, but sucked bad, it shouldn't be perked IMO
Well ya wouldn't need to- nobody would fly it anyway, so chances are it'd be just as rare ;) (see above)
Look at the Arado- I don't know how many bombs she can carry, but a 400 some ought knot bomber? Ya GOTTA perk that, ya know- added benefit is the rarity :)
But I wouldn't want to see more then maybe 4 262's a week- it just wouldn't seem proper, ya know?
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Originally posted by Rebel
Heya Karnak! :)
Now that I think about it, I bet most Hogs I see would be F4u1C's. I mean, take into effect that the average joe doesn't know how to E-fight, and DOES know that 4 20mm cannons (escpecially hispanos) is a LOT of firepower....
Whadda you think? Kinda hard to tell.....I wish it was the same with the F4u-4.
how to tell F4Us apart.
F4U-1 has light blue belly others dont
F4U-1d has yellow cowl ring on nose
F4U-1c has those huge guns stickin out of the wing :)
F4U-4 looks like Chog in paint but with out the
guns poking out.
whels
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Howdy Ho Rebel :D
On the Arado thing, I totally agree, that buff is leathal IMO and unless you allready have a 262 in the air when it arives, you will never catch it. It doesn't bleed E fast, very sleak nice plane and tus it can outdive anything and stay VERY fast for a long time at the deck. It carries 3x500kg (3300lbs) so it's enough for a hanger, bring a few of these up and you can pork alot of things.
Same thing about 262, same thing about the Tempest although I consider the Tempest to be a bit overpriced, maybe the Arado is too now when there is a 262.
On Comparison with the TA152 and the F4U-4 I've tried the F4u-4 for some sorties, it's REALLY nice but NOT worth 60 perks.
Good things about it is, turn rate, like all F4u's it can turn with most E fighters, 1 or 2 notches of flaps and it turns really well. It climbs good and got a good deck speed, it's is only slightly faster at the deck the the 109 G10 (I know, I had to run from 2x109's and a bunch of others for 5 minutes).
The best thing about it, I think, is most likely the acceleration in a dive, picks up speed as if the devil was on its 6.
Ta152 is allso a very nice plane IMO, if flown right, it rocks, it turns well, got a GREAT range and the internal fuel load enables it to stay in air (100% fuel no DT) 10 minutes longer then the P51 D in the MA.
Good guns, you got 2x20mm and a 30mm, one gun for every fight :D
The WEP is Nice, 10 minutes but it takes too long to reload, R/L they ran it for 10 minutes, cooled down 5, ran it 10 minutes, cooled down 5 untill the MW50 and/or GM1 fluids were gone.
Good climb rate with WEP unless you're very heavy on fuel.
TA152 has got very good acceleration aswell, I've actually caught Arados with it even though both of us were diving and I only had 1k alt on him, ended with him outmanuvering me at 500Mph (almost broke my wings) and me running from a bunch of perk hungry fighters.
Now, to it's downsides, Speed, it's slow at the deck, it's really quite a bit too slow, specially for a perk. 360Mph at the deck with WEP, bout 330 without. LA7, P51, Tiffie, 109G10, Dora, Tempest F4u4 and some others will catch it and some others too.
High altitude performance should be better I think, compare it to a spit 9, and the spit 9 outclimbs it well above 30k even when TA is on wep and spit is not. It allso outmanuvers it. Accelration and speed at that alt is good though.
For MA fights, wich are usually at 10k and bellow, the TA152 is not all that good, although I love her :)
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Thanks Vermillion!
I appreciate the confirmation. I noticed the F4U-1C (I wrote the F4U-1D when I meant the F4U-4) has more of a tendency to ground loop than the -1D or -1.
For what it's worth, I was very disappointed when the F4U-4 was perked. I was hoping to see a (non perked) F4U that was similar to the AW version. Oh well.
The F4U-1 and -1D planes performance still don't make sense to me, not that they must. It seems that a prop plane that can go 340ias on the deck ought to be able to climb pretty well. I also think the F6F should climb better. Maybe there is some prop efficiency-mach number issue that was going on with the planes.
It is probably more like I am remembering the (past) AW plane models. I pay attention to details like climb rate and top speed. Given time, my brain will let the information fade and these issues will not exist.
What I would like (not that I have the time) is a set of E-M charts for all the planes in AH. Documented plane performance would be cool.
Regards,
Ledz
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Hi Stantond, speed alone does not give it a good climb rate, take alook at the 190 A8, almost as fast as the F4u 1D (F4U1D does about 355 on the deck) and C at the deck but climbs worse, now look at the G6, with wep at the deck the G6 does about 335 Mph, but it climsb MUCH better then the F4u and the 190 A8.
A plane can be fast but climb poor, a plane can be slow but climb great (A6M5).
Btw, have you seen the plane charts on the help page?
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Look at the Zeke. I remember reading (or hearing it) somewhere, that it climbed much better than the hog and most other early to mid-year aircraft (someone find the quote for me). I never saw the data, so maybe it's just an old wives tale...
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Not a Tale at all Red Tail.
The Zeke, just as in AH had a nice climb rate, it almost got to 20k in 7 minutes wich is fairly good, climb rate is pretty good in AH, about 3.4k/min at the deck.
The problem with it is that although it get up to its alt pretty quick, it does it in a slow speed, much slower then most other planes.
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did some test's the other night. changed my mind.
this is the reason to un-perk the f4u-4 or at least lower the price.
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that thing does damn near everything better. and has bigger guns. and most people will argue that the la7 wont stay in the air as long due to the fuel. it will stay airborn longer than the -4 unless you take a droptank
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Same reason, amongst others, why you should unperk the Ta152 aswell.
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I just checked the stats for tour 24
F4U-4 has 572 Kills and 231 deaths of and by all planes.
F4U-1C has a 5633/2681, not much less than the F4U-4 and a LOT less points.
F4U-1 has 1777/1925, gets it's butt kicked like the F4U-1D :)
F4U-1D is 8803/12263, not too impressive.
C205 has 5606 to 6283
FW190A-8 the Axis "Cannon Hawg" :) 6311/5840
NIK-2 30488/25620 not bad for a non-perked plane that is used in furballs or by newbies :)
Spit9 32900/33636 not even 1:1 and people want to perk it ! LOL
Spit 5 20772/20260 nice little furball machine :) gives as good as it gets. Lot os Spits in the arena, and why not??
TA 152 367/247 not very impressive for a costly perk ride IMHO.
Tempest 975/235, you have a strong case for perking this puppy :)
ME 262 1869/346, WOW! even bettern the Tempest.
BF-109G-10 11745/9771. Nice stats for a nice plane. But no better than the F4U1-C Cannon Hawg, and twice as common in the arena :)
C-47A has 762/9699, nope no need to perk that one :)
My Sweet dumpling Dora, the FW-190D9, 10496/7536, pretty impressive! And a non-perk as it should be. Again about twice as common as the F4U-1C, and a much better kill ratio.
The P51D Mustang, what a nice machine :) 30793/30552
If you check it out, the F4U Corsairs are not a common ride these days. I'll be a big chunk of them are flown from carriers. If it weren't for Carrier Assaults, I have a feeling they would be like DoDo birds. I mean how often do you REALLY see the F4U other than at bases being vulched by carriers??? It is after all the best E fighter of the carrier planes.
Now look at these figures, and reconsider, why is the F4U-4 perked at 60 points???? You know that the present figure is inflated do to the fact that anyone who takes these out wants to bring them back. I doubt if you made them a low perk or no perk that they would dominate the arena as everyone fears.
I think they should at least be a no-perk when flown from a carrier????? It would make carrier assaults much more effective :)
AKEagle+
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Originally posted by pimpjoe
not so...i ran into 3 la7's in a -4 the other day. out flew all 3 of em and killed em.
Now I know you're lying. If you outflew 3 La7's, wouldn't they all run away? ;)
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Look at the Zeke. I remember reading (or hearing it) somewhere, that it climbed much better than the hog and most other early to mid-year aircraft (someone find the quote for me). I never saw the data, so maybe it's just an old wives tale...
You will find that the Zero can maintain a much steeper climb than almost every other fighter. If you want to outclimb a Zero, you must do so in a high speed, shallow climb. Going pure vertical against a Zero at Co-E is suicide, So don't do it. Not even in a 109G-10.
My regards,
Widewing
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I had a Yak lower than me and not only did it spiral climb with me, itgained and eventually got to me...Seeing as I also had about 1k alt and good E at the outset, I got suprised at that...Maybe I need to re-read the specs, in AW FR, Yaks couldnt do that (few planes could)...I was in the -4.
Zeke could climb to alt well, but couldnt hang with many US planes with regards to spiral climbing, her plant was too weakly powered. They will hang themselves eventually if you can keep just out of guns range.
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Oh I almost forgot...I was in a -D, NOT a -4, sorry...
Thanks to this thread I changed my mind, and I too would like to see the -4 unperked or w/ less points. 60 is way too much considering the Dora's capabilities and the -4's "hit me" logo on the fuselage. It's fun ride, but it draws a crowd.
In all honesty, what are the chances of its perk status being adjusted?
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Red Tail wrote:
I had a Yak lower than me and not only did it spiral climb with me, itgained and eventually got to me...Seeing as I also had about 1k alt and good E at the outset, I got suprised at that...Maybe I need to re-read the specs, in AW FR, Yaks couldnt do that (few planes could)...
Heheheh :)
Realize that there are two Yak's in Aces High. The Yak-9T, and the Yak-9U
The Yak in Air Warrior was the Yak-9D.
The Yak-9T and the Yak-9D are similar except for armament differences, but the Yak-9U was the late war version that had a much more powerful engine.
The Yak-9U is one of the best vertical fighters in the game.
That would be like the difference between the Spit IX and the Spit XIV. Two very different beasties' ;)
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Good things about it is, turn rate, like all F4u's it can turn with most E fighters, 1 or 2 notches of flaps and it turns really well. It climbs good and got a good deck speed, it's is only slightly faster at the deck the the 109 G10 (I know, I had to run from 2x109's and a bunch of others for 5 minutes).
The best thing about it, I think, is most likely the acceleration in a dive, picks up speed as if the devil was on its 6.
Hehehe, that she does :)
BTW, if you're turning the Hog, you're doing something wrong- she only turns well enough for you to *think* she can turn n' burn....which is why a lot of guys hate her guts :D (she's a tricky lil' gal)
Eagle-
The stats you posted, while interesting, can be somewhat misleading. I worked in the market research industry for a couple of years, and I learned that a survey is only as good as the people who take it.
If you're just throwing up kill to death ratios of planes in the MA, you'll find several common themes-
Popular planes (i.e. the P51) get flown more often.
Easy to fly planes (i.e. the LA7 and the Spits) get flown more often.
You HAVE to take into account the general mindset of the average MA pilot.
How many P51's do you see trying to turn n' burn? Or even *attempt* to B&Z, and fail miserably?
A well flown e-fighter such as the F4u series, the P51, and even the Jugs are very rare indeed.
If all pilots understood even the basics of energy retention, vertical vs. horizontal maneuvering, and fighting the e-fight, the stats would be VERY different for the E-fighters. I bet the P51 would probably come out on top, followed closely by the F4u series (sans the Chog), then the Spits (an e-fightin spit is a most terrible thing to face).
But your stats are very interesting from the fact that the average pilot does MUCH better in the C-hog then the -1D. I can tell you why- the guns. All you need to do is sneeze in the general direction of your opponent, and he's goin down. One lil' snapshot with those things (i.e. a turnfight gone bad, you only get ONE shot) and it's all over.
The Me-262 OTOH- that thing is just too damned fast NOT to have an incredible Kill to Death ratio.
Regarding the Tempest- WOW. That's a big KTD. I have to check that thing out later :)
The TA152 stat would probably hold more bearing in the CT arena. The MA is not a place to be running stats on hi-alt energy superfighters, hehehe ;)
Regarding Red-Tail,
Hi!
I had a Yak lower than me and not only did it spiral climb with me, itgained and eventually got to me...Seeing as I also had about 1k alt and good E at the outset, I got suprised at that...Maybe I need to re-read the specs, in AW FR, Yaks couldnt do that (few planes could)
In a spiral climb vs. a Yak (or anything else for that matter), you HAVE to have a HUGE climb advantage. Spiral climbs are a very dangerous proposition in any given scenario- the only fighter I've ever seen successfully pull it off is the 109 series (mostly late).
I can tell you exactly what happened- your speed eventually dropped, you lost your climbing advantage (it was sort of a lazy zoom), his bigger HP/weight ratio took over, and caught up with you. That's why you died.
The F4u simply does not have the climb rate to perform this maneuver with pretty much any fighter in the MA. While her climb IS good for an e-fighter (especially one of her size), she's no superman.
If you did a spiral ZOOM climb, OTOH, that's a different story- an F4U with WEP going into a steep chandelle is a thing of beauty. Her roll rate allows you to flick the bad guy into your lift vector in half a second flat, and set up for the kill. Just make sure the bad guy is MUCH slower.
In all honesty, what are the chances of its perk status being adjusted?
If the case is the rarity of the machine- then probably not.
But, based on testimony from more then a few pilots in the MA, I believe we could probably persuade HT or Pyro to at least half it.
As I said, I haven't flown it yet in the MA. Once I do, I'll have a better ground for argument under my feet. Only 30 more perks to go! :)
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I've bee trying like heck to stay out of this but I can't resist.
Here is an AAR of a real life F4U-4 vrs Yak encounter. I've have already posted this once before. Notice the load the F4U's are carrying during the encounter.
The following article is from "Naval Aviation News" from sometime
during the early 50's. The author is unknown at this time.
YAK vs. CORSAIR
It was all over in 10 minutes. Two heavily loaded F4U-4's proved
more than a match for four Russian made YAK's, a name made famous
in World War II.
Things started popping when an early morning reconnaissance patrol
from the escort carrier Bataan were abruptly introduced to the
much-touted Red jobs, near Choppeki Point off the west coast of
Korea.
Of the four Marine Corsairs launched in the group, two had been
sent to escort a helicopter ordered to pick up a Corsair pilot
from another flight who had bailed out because of engine trouble.
The two remaining Corsairs continued toward their designated
targets to the northeast. The flight climbed for altitude over
Hojang-do in open formation with the flight leader about 500 yards
at 7 o'clock from his wingman. It was just a routine combat
patrol until...........
The flight leader first spotted the enemy aircraft when the first
two Yaks, either YAK-3's or YAK-9's, opened fire, sending a bullet
through his Corsair aft of the cockpit. The Corsairs were at about
2,000 feet when taken under attack by the YAK's, which came
barreling in an altitude of 5,000 to the northwest.
Flying in a loose right echelon the four enemy fighters made a
right and then a left turn, at approximately 10 o'clock, toward
the Corsairs and made a run on the flight leader. Apparently, the
Reds had not yet spotted the second Corsair.
Scratch Three. The second F4U pulled in behind the attacking
YAK's and followed their No. 3 man, with their No. 4 plane at 7
o'clock from him. Following this the second Corsair broke away
from behind the No. 3 man and dove to the left and below the No. 4
man who was firing at him. He then made a climbing 360 degree
turn and opened fire an two of the enemy aircraft with unobserved
results. Tailing in at 4 o'clock on another enemy, the Marine
flier opened fire, hitting the Red's tail, fuselage and wing. His
hits caused the starboard wing of die YAK to break off and the
plane crashed and went up in a burst of flames.
Meanwhile, the Corsair flight leader, upon being hit did a "Split
S" to pick up speed and made a climbing turn to the left. Two
enemy aircraft made firing runs from astern, but overshot and
turned wide while he pulled in behind and returned fire on the two
YAK's with unobserved results. While the flight leader was in a
climbing left turn one enemy aircraft crossed in front of him from
right to left. At that instant a YAK was seen by the flight
leader to crash into the ground and burn. This was his wingman's
kill. Meanwhile, the YAK crossing the flight leader's nose was
taken under fire and sent spinning into the ground smoking. This
second enemy aircraft crashed and burned about one-half mile west
of the spot where the first YAK was burning.
The flight leader turned to the left and headed eastward when he
observed three aircraft flying ahead of him also heading east.
The wingman was pursuing one enemy aircraft, with the second enemy
aircraft following to the left and turning right on his tail. The
flight leader called his wingman and told him to pull up as the
YAK was on his tail.
The wingman turned hard to the left and dropped his Corsair under
and astern opening fire on the YAK as it overran him. His fire
started the enemy plane smoking out of both sides of the cockpit
from around the wing roots.
The flight leader continued tailing the enemy lead plane and his
opening fire started this aircraft smoking. Attempting to evade
the fire, the YAK pilot turned to the south, and then to the west
but the pursuing fire caused the enemy plane to puff smoke. The
Red did a "Split S" and headed west. Following through, the
Corsair continued to tail in on him firing. The enemy plane began
smoking from both wings and the fuselage while fragments of the
aircraft kept falling off. Papers were seen coming from the
cockpit. Following this the pilot jettisoned his hood and then
bailed out. A few seconds later the YAK plunged into the water.
The pilot's parachute opened and he descended into the water,
apparently unhurt.
The two Corsairs then joined up and climbed to 6,000 feet,
orbiting over the downed enemy planes location. The helicopter
previously ordered to pick up the ditched Corsair pilot was asked
also to pick up the enemy pilot. The section orbited this area
for about 10 minutes and then headed south toward Changyon.
The fourth enemy aircraft was last seen climbing east into the
sun, smoking from both wing roots.
A rough engine in the wingman's Corsair and smoke in the cockpit
of the flight leader's aircraft forced the flight to return to the
Bataan. The flight landed without mishap at 0820.
Poorly Executed. All the aerial action took place between 2,000
and 3,000 feet. This unexpected attack found both of the F4U's
carrying a belly tank and a 500-pound bomb, or a napalm tank,
which were not jettisoned until the combat was nearly over. Each
aircraft also was carrying a wing load of six HVAR rockets and two
100-pound bombs which were not jettisoned until the flight headed
for the ship.
The enemy aircraft were identified as other YAK-3 or YAK-9
fighters. These low-wing Soviet built fighters and their versions
are powered by in-line engines ranging from 1,085 to 1,580
horsepower. Maximum speed for the Yak prop fighter is 360 knots
at 15,000 feet. Armament consists of one 20 mm gun, hub-mounted
and two 12.7 mm guns in the nose.
The markings on the aircraft were white circles outlined in red
with a red star in the center. These markings were located on the
fuselage aft and below the cockpit, and on the underside of left
wing. The aircraft were painted in camouflage that ran from
silver to light green.
It was the opinion of the two Corsair pilots that the attack by
the enemy, with both numerical superiority and altitude advantage,
was very poorly executed. The Reds also had an opportunity to
make the attack out of the sun, but didn't. Instead they made it
90 degrees to the sun. Furthermore, the fact that all four enemy
aircraft made the initial attack on the two Corsairs cast doubt on
the enemy tactical wisdom.
The air discipline of the enemy pilots was good as they
effectively kept together, providing mutual support. The Reds
pressed home their attack with determination and did not attempt
to leave the area until they were smoking from hits. Their
marksmanship, however, was poor on deflection shooting.
The F4U-4, even when heavily loaded, apparently is more
maneuverable than the YAK-3 or YAK-9 at speeds between 140 and 160
knots.
Moreover, the YAK fighters flown by the Communist pilots were
considered inferior in speed and rate of climb to the F4U-4.
Maximum speed used by the YAK's was about 200 to 250 knots. Most
maneuvering after the first pass was below 200 knots. Since no
effective evasive action was taken by the YAK pilots it is
believed they lacked training or experience.
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Were Yak's really that bad ?
Or is the answer in last sentence "Since no
effective evasive action was taken by the YAK pilots it is
believed they lacked training or experience."
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Originally posted by Staga
Were Yak's really that bad ?
on the same note....were la7's really that good?
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Sorry F4UDOA, but that story doesn't prove anything.
First off there seemed to be a huge disparity in pilot quality.
Secondly. Oh they were Yak's. Thats like telling a story about a Me109K4 killing a "Spitfire", without ever detailing which Spit varient it was. Was it a Yak-9D? Yak-3? Yak-9U? Yak-3P? Or even one of the legendary Yak-3's with a VK107? All are different planes with different capabilities and strengths.
Lets look at another similar example. Many feel aircraft experts feel that the Mig-15 was quite superior to the F-86, but the F-86 had the much better K/D ratio in Korea. Did that prove it was a better plane? Nope it proved that the American pilots were typically trained better and had more experience than the North Korean and Chinese pilots they encountered.
And yes Pimpjoe the La7 was that good.
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Verm relax,
I was just posting a real life encounter between the A/C.
My only point is that sometimes we get a little caught up in all of the equations and forget that these A/C did in fact fly against one another and we are the ones who are simulating them.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Sorry F4UDOA, but that story doesn't prove anything.
First off there seemed to be a huge disparity in pilot quality.
Secondly. Oh they were Yak's. Thats like telling a story about a Me109K4 killing a "Spitfire", without ever detailing which Spit varient it was. Was it a Yak-9D? Yak-3? Yak-9U? Yak-3P? Or even one of the legendary Yak-3's with a VK107? All are different planes with different capabilities and strengths.
Lets look at another similar example. Many feel aircraft experts feel that the Mig-15 was quite superior to the F-86, but the F-86 had the much better K/D ratio in Korea. Did that prove it was a better plane? Nope it proved that the American pilots were typically trained better and had more experience than the North Korean and Chinese pilots they encountered.
And yes Pimpjoe the La7 was that good.
Ah, very few MiG-15s were flown by Chinese or North Korean pilots. Mostly they were operating Yak-9P and La-9/11 types. Indeed, the overwhelming majority of MiG-15 pilots, through 1952, were Soviets. WWII veterans to be more precise. Visit this Link:
Soviets of MiG Alley (http://www.troa.org/Magazine/August2000/feature_russians.asp)
My regards,
Widewing
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I guess Rebel the point I was trying to make in my stats post is this. How does the plane compare in the ‘Real” Main Arena. There is a wide margin of pilot quality in the MA. I have about a 1:1 K/D in the MA. Not very impressive. Yet I am ranked about 800/2800 (?) as a fighter pilot. My K/D would be better, if I wasn’t such a compulsive furballer :) I get vulched a lot taking off, hehehe, and I dive into non-winnable situations just to see how many (if any) I can take with me. That means that most pilots/players in the MA have less than a 1:1 K/D. This is fairly realistic, as in real combat there are essentially two classes of pilots: Aces and Targets.
As we look at the numbers of planes flown, and the K/Ds in the MA, I think we could interpolate from these, that most planes are being flown way below their potential. And I do mean WAY below their potential. I doubt if the F4U-4 were unperked that it would be the ride of choice for the masses. Too easy to bleed off your E, and get caught low and slow. Yaks, LA7s, and Ponys would run you down quickly if they have alt, and Spits and NIKS would be in a feeding frenzy. I truly doubt if would be any more popular than the Dora, except that it would probably be the fighter of choice for carrier assaults.
I think the Pony, flown well, is the terror of the arena. Although you screw up and YAKs will eat you for lunch. Yet the Pony is not the most popular plane and has a 1:1 K/D. You fly that puppy well and with patience, and it will bring you many scalps. :)
I think that the F4U-4, while a monster in the hands of a great stick, would be a seal pup on the ice in the hands of the average MA pilot.
AKEagle+
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Hogs really get a bad rap, they are great planes, I love em, but I wish I could fly them better. I would love a hand, as I 've been driving them for years, and I still know there are secrets yet undiscovred by me.
I take the Hog -C up routinely, and it's a magnet for planes which seem to come out of nowhere!
Here's an F2/G, never see it in here except for my dreams!
I also have a nice pic of a pony and an original Tuskegee Airman, I'll post it if interested.
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Just think what would happen if the -4 was unperked.
Would the -1 , -D be used? I dont think so.
On the 190's the difference is so great and yet the planes dont fly *that* much different when u compare a -D with a -4. Sure, the d9 has a monster engine.. but what crappy guns. The -5 and -8 are a tad slower, but pack much better punch. And they dive just as good as the D9.
IMO, the 152 should be unperked, the D9 perked at 10 perks, the F4U-4 should be 10 perks. The 152 is roughly the equivalent below 30k of the -4 when compared to the -D (-D would be the 190a5/a8 equivalent).
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Originally posted by pimpjoe
on the same note....were la7's really that good?
In Korea, La-9/11 types, as well as Yak-9Ps were commonly operated by the North Korean and Chinese Air Forces. They were butchered by F-51D, F4U-4/5 and F-82 fighters. Likewise those foolish enough to venture out in the dark were frequently smacked down by Marine Corps F7F-3N Tigercats.
Once the MiGs started intercepting B-29 raids, they were shifted to night bombing. During the night missions, the Superforts were escorted by Navy and Marine F3D Skyknights. During the entire war, B-29 night missions escorted by the F3Ds never suffered a single casualty to communist fighters, be they prop driven or MiG-15s.
My regards,
Widewing
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Convergence Q...
Should I keep the default settings or should I adjust the conversion sights in the hog...I sadle up (as much as a hog can do!) but I'm missing...I have the trigger on the throttle, so it's a smooth stream...
any suggestions?
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Cc Tac Except for F4u¤ being 20Mph faster at the deck then the TA152.
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Just think what would happen if the -4 was unperked.
Would the -1 , -D be used? I dont think so.
First of all I don't think that the purpose of perking is so that each model of a plane type gets it's 'fair share" of use. It is to make sure that no one plane type dominates the arena like the C Hawg did.
The last stats for tour 24 are:
the F4U-1 has a 1997/1953 K/D
the F4U-C 5712/2716
the F4U-D 8948/12467
the F4U-4 585/236
Now that sort of tells me that the -D is more popular than the -1. Yet the -1 has a better K/D. :eek:
For the 190s
FW 190A-5 6485/4257 nice 1.52 K/D for a non-perk :)
FW 190A-8 6372/5889
FW 190D-9 10599/7617 1.39 K/D
FW 190F-8 967/1245
TA-152H 383/250
So the 190s are a bit more popular than the F4Us, and other than the C Hawg, deadlier.
Again I would state that other than carrier assaults, you see darn few F4Us or F6Fs.
Also, the Dora is not a dominante ride in the arena, nor does it have a really high K/D. Hardly the kind of stats that would justify perking it. Oh yes sir!, in the hands of a master pilot it is a terrible machine. But it is hardly overrunning the arena.
And that is exactly my point on the -4, in the hands of the average MA pilot it will not be this "terrible uber mosheen", such that you would have droves of dweebs in -4s swarming all over the arena. The guns just won't allow 1 or 2 hit kills on the HO like the C Hawg or Spit.
At least give it no or very low perk points when flown from a carrier. And maybe 10 pts max when flown from a land base.
AKEagle+
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"Cc Tac Except for F4u¤ (4?) being 20Mph faster at the deck then the TA152"
Yes, just like the La7 & other powerplanes are faster than the -4 hog on the deck :)
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I guess Rebel the point I was trying to make in my stats post is this. How does the plane compare in the ‘Real” Main Arena. There is a wide margin of pilot quality in the MA
That was my point too :) The only thing is, I'm focusing one the simple majority.
I have about a 1:1 K/D in the MA. Not very impressive.
Bullpucky! Achieving a 1:1 K/D ratio in a main arena, ESPECIALLY one with so much emphasis on furballing is a major, major milestone. Congratulations, bro!
For a furballer to pick up a 1:1 takes a lot of work, not to mention talent. If ya wanna head over and learn the ways of the force, lemme know- I'll teach ya how to e-fight and make ya an absolute killer :)
Yet I am ranked about 800/2800 (?) as a fighter pilot
Yup- this is what I was gettin' at. Most pilots don't achieve a 1:1- hell I bet the average for the arena is probably .3 - .5 : 1 :)
This is fairly realistic, as in real combat there are essentially two classes of pilots: Aces and Targets
True, to an extent. No pilot ever had 7 years of steady war, either. And, believe it or not, most pilots preferred their tulips attatched, rather then being strewn about the ETO :D
As we look at the numbers of planes flown, and the K/Ds in the MA, I think we could interpolate from these, that most planes are being flown way below their potential
Amen! I saw a P51 last night dive in from 15K, and start TURNING in the middle of a furball. Took him all of about 30 seconds to die (long enough for the closest Spit to see him, bring his cannons to bear, and let off a shot, hehehe)
This is just one of hundereds of examples I've seen in the Main. I guess people don't view this sim as a sim- it's just a way to relieve stress to a lot of folks. As for me, I strive to do my best, and fly like I would in RL (sans giant furball flights o' fancy- those are just pure adrenaline rushes :D )
I doubt if the F4U-4 were unperked that it would be the ride of choice for the masses. Too easy to bleed off your E, and get caught low and slow. Yaks, LA7s, and Ponys would run you down quickly if they have alt, and Spits and NIKS would be in a feeding frenzy. I truly doubt if would be any more popular than the Dora, except that it would probably be the fighter of choice for carrier assaults.
You're probably right. For a while, there might be a rush, but a hawg is a hawg, and people would just stick to Jabo- and even then they might take the 1C instead.
I think the Pony, flown well, is the terror of the arena. Although you screw up and YAKs will eat you for lunch. Yet the Pony is not the most popular plane and has a 1:1 K/D. You fly that puppy well and with patience, and it will bring you many scalps.
As it damn well should be :D
I bet that for every 100 P51's in the arena, 10-20 are being flown by guys who actually know how- it is in these hands that the P51 is able to keep her 1:1
I think that the F4U-4, while a monster in the hands of a great stick, would be a seal pup on the ice in the hands of the average MA pilot
Here's where it gets tricky. The question of "Is this machine's performance enough to compensate for the lack of training of it's pilot?"
In the case of the LA7, you could easily say a resounding "Yes!" to that question. Her sheer power is enough to make her a menace even in the hands of the most green jocks.
In the case of the P51, you could easily say "No" to the same question. Flown incorrectly, she will kill ya guick- much the same as a Hawg.
But, in the case of an F4u-4, I can't really comment. Her engine upgrade might be *just* enough to let a greenhorn slip by unscathed- however this may just as well not be the case- I can't comment. I'm taking a -4 Hawg up tonight for a spin, I think.
And I will be flying smart with her ;)
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Heya RedTail!
Hogs really get a bad rap, they are great planes, I love em, but I wish I could fly them better. I would love a hand, as I 've been driving them for years, and I still know there are secrets yet undiscovred by me.
I'll be glad to show ya a few tricks :)
My K/D ratio in the Hawg stands at a solid 1:1, but that's only because my buddy Saw talks me into Jabo work where I always get killed, hehehe :)
Look for me in the Arena- I fly for Knights, my handle is Rebel352.
My first squad in WB's was the VMF-214- learned a LOT of good stuff there.
I take the Hog -C up routinely, and it's a magnet for planes which seem to come out of nowhere!
I've taken her up just a few times, and I like it a lot. We can start out on this one if ya like ;)
BTW, I noted your convergence question- I'll look for ya tonight- I might be able to help there too.
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Rebel
"There are two reasons for the "Uber-aces" of Germany-
#1- they were fighting from home turf. They could bail out, and in all likeliehood, be back at their home base in less than 24 hours (maybe a little longer if they decided to raid a local bar n' brothel- I know I would!)
Look up Franz Stigler- the man was shot down 14 times!
#2- They couldn't stop flying until either they were dead, or the war was over. No tour of duties,
While I agree that there is a very vocal LW core group of people, and I see them citing the examples you speak of, I just wanted to set the record straight. The deck was stacked in favor of LW pilots that could afford to bail out."
You mean to say in your opinion right?
While I would agree that both these issues where factors in the kill counts of the top German pilots they are not the central issue.
The primary thing that got the LW pilots their high kill scores was lots of bad guys..Period.
Their tactics and temperment added alot as well.
It would follow from your logic that the highest scoreing pilots when the Allies were defending would be the Allied pilots involved, correct?
I wonder who the top scoreing ace of the Battle of Britian was? The top 5?
I would be interested in the same numbers for Malta..
Definatly many promising RAF and USAF carrers were suspended by a stay in a stalag. But think..
How many german AC did someone like the late grate Gabby see in his years of fighting....
How many do you think someone like Pips Priller saw? You cant shoot down what you dont see.
The allies were target hungery most of the time. The Germans for most of the war had no trouble finding their next victim.
That is the big factor. You can even rack up a lot of kills in a Brewster Buffalo if there are enough targets.
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Right Pongo- couple that with the fact that they could bail out and make it home, and you've got a sure fire way to rack up some kills.
LW pilots WERE very aggressive- because they had to be.
I'm by no means degrading or minimizing their skill- they were excellent pilots.
BUT- there were NO tours of duty, NO replacements, and the most leave anyone got was two weeks.
As to your BoB question?
I have no idea. Johnnie Johnson was up there- he had like 40. But how long did the battle of Britain last?
And how long did the battle for Europe last?
The targets point is a very big one. Couple the fact that the LW was geared up to intercept, not search and destroy, with the fact that they were facing very long odds, and also with the fact that they were going home in one of two ways- after the war, or in a pine box.
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Johnnie Johnson was a post-BoB RAF pilot. I believe that 'Sailor' Malan was the top scorer of the BoB. But in the RAF (and USAAF) they'd pull you back and have to run things from upstairs or train new pilots rather than have you fly till you died.
One interviewer once asked of, in an accusing manner, Johnnie Johnson (the leading Allied ace on the western front with 38 kills) why he hadn't gotten as many as the leading German aces. He replied, matter of factly, that hed hadn't seen that many enemy aircraft during the entirety of the war.
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It would follow from your logic that the highest scoreing pilots when the Allies were defending would be the Allied pilots involved, correct?
I wonder who the top scoreing ace of the Battle of Britian was? The top 5?
Luftwaffe of course, but considering the Luftwaffe were inflating their kills by around 3.5 to 1, that's hardly suprising.
Helmut Wick I believe was top, with 42 "confirmed" kills.
In fact, if you take just the Luftwaffe pilots who scored 10 or more kills, they accounted for very nearly every RAF fighter lost to Luftwaffe fighters.
If you believe those 10+ kill aces, the rest of the 1000+ Luftwaffe fighter pilots involved scored about 100 kills between them.
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Originally posted by Karnak
One interviewer once asked of, in an accusing manner, Johnnie Johnson (the leading Allied ace on the western front with 38 kills) why he hadn't gotten as many as the leading German aces. He replied, matter of factly, that hed hadn't seen that many enemy aircraft during the entirety of the war.
That man was a class act. He was hinting at what I believe (am I the only one?) - to wit, that Nazi pilot claims were grossly inflated.
- oldman
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Rebel I also fly for the Knights, I'm from AW and I flew with the 247th Wildcats and now the 444th Air Mafia. I've seen you up, but never winged ya...I dont have AH voice, I dont think my 8MB card and its gameport can handle it.
I went Krakatoa last night, and burned up every one of my perk points trying to figure out the -C :) I should have gone offline, but it's too tempting w/ those cannons in the MA. I figured I'd get those points back X 10 with one decent run (I'm a gambler, but I crapped out last night )
However, maybe the trim characteristics are different due to the cannons (?) because I couldnt seem to pull out of any steep dive, even w/ manual trim...man, AH is teaching me how to be humble bigtime... I'm a dweeb all over again...I fly every night, except tonight. Also, I'm CST time zone.
Look for "Gainsie" and you found me. Thanks!!
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I went Krakatoa last night, and burned up every one of my perk points trying to figure out the -C I should have gone offline, but it's too tempting w/ those cannons in the MA. I figured I'd get those points back X 10 with one decent run (I'm a gambler, but I crapped out last night )
Groaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnn! :)
Welp, looks like -1D's for a while then, hehehe :)
However, maybe the trim characteristics are different due to the cannons (?) because I couldnt seem to pull out of any steep dive, even w/ manual trim...man, AH is teaching me how to be humble bigtime... I'm a dweeb all over again...I fly every night, except tonight. Also, I'm CST time zone.
No, that's called 'compression', and it's a real squeak. You let your hawg get ahead of ya in the dive......not good ;)
I noticed you're in Northfield. I live by Burnsville in Prior Lake ;)
Why no fly tonight? No real problem- I'll just work on my perks- I GOTS ta fly a 262 sometime hehehe :)
-Reb
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hehe, great to know someone's in my neck of the woods...You're only about 30 mins away, give or take. Gfry, another 444th, lives in Fargo.
I have a date tonght - even AH takes a backseat to a cute girl :)I should be on latenight though.
Lookin forward to wingin ya, thanks!
Gainsie
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I'm not commenting about inflated claims on either side but the major difference between opportunites presented to the Allied or Axis pilots is the about same as those presented to defenders and attackers.
The Allies had to go find the Axis while the Axis simply needed to wait till the enemy came to them - which happened every day from morning through the night.
Even though the Axis pilots flew from day one in 1939 til lthey died or the war ended in 1945 let's start in late 1942 when the UK and US began bombing Occupied Europe and the LW contended the raids in earnest. If an Axis pilot flew every day (as most did) and got 1 kill each day then by the time the time the Allied escort was a serious force to contend with (early-mid 44) an Axis pilot should well have had well over 365 kills. How come only a few did and those who had got them mostly on the Eastern front?
Westy
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Cool deal, bro- have a good date! I've got school tonight (almost forgot! hehe). I should be on around 11-midnight, and into the wee hours of the morn.
Westy- I really didn't want to get into that conversation. I don't think the LW inflated it's kills- if they did, it was probably just as bad as the Allied pilots.
I'm done with all that ;)
See y'all tonight
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"Westy- I really didn't want to get into that conversation."
shhhh. you'll spook'em
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Originally posted by K West
"Westy- I really didn't want to get into that conversation."
shhhh. you'll spook'em
(Circles the decoys.)
I don't buy the Nazi claims for a couple of reasons. First, they are so contrary to every other country's experience, including Italian, Japanese, whatever. The English, for example, were in the war for as long as the Germans, and even accounting for an imbalance in the number of combat opportunities, their top ace (Johnson, at 38) didn't even approach the claims of his opposite numbers. The Japanese had lots of targets; their top ace came in under 100 claims, and we know that even so his claims are inflated.
Second, people like Caldwell have pointed out that there really are no firm Nazi kill numbers available - because they were destroyed at the end of the war. All you have are claims submitted by the units. As well, Caldwell has documented that these claims are stretched, and in the case of four-engine bombers are likely double the actual losses.
Finally, I just don't buy the notion that 100 guys shot down 14,000 planes - no matter how often they flew, or against whom. It goes against my notion of common sense.
(settles onto water next to decoys)
- Oldman