Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sachs on January 29, 2002, 05:08:59 PM
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Just curious, we have the F8 but is it really a Jabo? It would be nice to be able to carry a little more ordinance to hit a base. And we all know it carried more then what is listed in AH right now. I am also for adding the attack category to the B-26, Ju-88 and TBM. With the new 110 coming into play it will carry the same ordinance as a F8 so in essence we are not getting a true dedicated jabo. Me-410 would have been a nice addition, (sigh) won't ever happen I am afraid. KI-102 would have been a great choice for a new Jabo IMO. Anyway, frustrated thats all.
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"Me-410 would have been a nice addition, (sigh) won't ever happen I am afraid. "
LuftWhiners are now psychic. :rolleyes:
ra
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Originally posted by ra
LuftWhiners are now psychic. :rolleyes:
ra
LOL, best comeback yet. And asking for attack option on allied aircraft seems like a whine to. OMFG a double standard, Tard award goes to you. Next....
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You'll have to fight him for that award...
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The FW190-F8 isn't a bad jabo; it really should have the capability to carry underwing rockets too.
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If the F-8 was equipped with the panzerschreck/panzerblitz as well as underwing 2x250kg bombs it would possible be one of the deadliest anti-tank aircraft in AH.
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me110c4 - 1200 hp engines :( 2x 250kg bombs :(
EDIT:just found this bf110c-4/b of 9./zg26 'horst Wessel' based at palermo as early as the end of 1940.Shown carrying two 551lb(250kg) and four 220lb (100kg) bombs.' not much better but something at least.
I really hope HTC hasnt modelled the c4 when even the c7 could at least carry 2,205 lbs, or the 110E-1 which could carry 4,409lbs.
I was really hoping for the me410 myself but i wont say im too dissapointed that we have a new LW plane to try out.But if we get the C4 or earlier we really wont have a role for it will we?
heres a little selection of more favourable me110 variants:
(me110G series 1475hp engines)
me110g2/r1 37mm cannon in place of bombracks
me110g2/r3 2x30mm 2x20mm +2x7.9mm rear facing instead of single
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I will fly whatever 110 we get but the lw will never get a jabo thats "on par" with the allies nor should it.
To me it means us lw if we want to fly our planeset and get the most out of it we should work together.
I cant remember the last all lw base attack I've been on.
I remember 190a8 raining 500kgs on vhs fhs and bhs then smacking down the ack and vulchin.
I agree that more options on the f8 even if it means it would become a "hybrid" more folks might fly it but I fly it anyway and its still fun.
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Does a decent jabo have to have serious fire power in regard to guns? I think not. The requirement for a decent jabo would be a good ordance loadout, and stability in a dive.
The LW already has one of the best dive bombers in the plane set. The Ju-88. It packs a better bomb loadout then any of the so-called allied jabo/attack planes. Give it a try, it's even got dive flaps!:D
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(SIGH).......LW fans clamored for the 190F-8, said it was 190 version of Jabo....now they got it, and it ain't good enough.......(shakes head)
LW has their "real" jabo, at least from the hoopla dished out prior to it's release. Sheesh guys, what does it take to make ya'll happy?
:confused:
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A 190F8 with a somewhat decent bombloadout/rocket loadout would suffice IMO. Not asking for a super Jabo just asking for a better loadout that it did carry.
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jabo = jagdbomber = fighter bomber
whether it dive bombs or not is irrelevant to arguement here.....
the ju88 is and was designed as a bomber whether it could dive bomb or not. Also theres different ju88 models better suited for the ground attack roll. Also the ju88 we have doesn't have an attack option so kills against gvs dont count thats why AG is asking for an attack option for it.
Check AG....err Sachs ak AGJV44 scores in the f8 the last couple of tours.
Last tour he had over 100 kills vrs 20 or so deaths.
We can fly any plane in the lw planeset and get kills. But the point he is making is should the f8 be given some of the loadout options that were available in rl. Or can we expect at some point to get a Jagdbomber better suited for the FIGHTERBOMBER roll.
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S!
It's the 110C-4 so it will go with the rest of the BoB set. A 110G wouldn't fit very well with a 109E-4 or a Hurri I.
Pyro has already said he will do a 'G' model later to go with the '44 8th AAF set of planes we have now.
You will probably get lots of bombs on it then.
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I'd settle for rockets or 2*250 extra loadout on the F8. That'd give us a jabo that has a kickarse payload.
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Stuka?
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Eddiek, a rocket loadout, atleast for the smaller kind of rockets, wouldn't mind the mortar rockets for it either. And the 1000kg (think some even flew with 1500kg) loadout. Max loadout as we have now is 700kg.
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Using a JU88 for a JABO role is pretty damned stupid.
JABO is Jagdbomber. Fighterbomber. Not bomber-that-can-dive-bomb.
A8 or F8: can handle my own if there's ane enemy. Good chance of escaping alive.
JU88: can turn with the enemy for a bit and prolong my life with a minute or two.
The JU88 is the second easiest plane to kill, just after the c47.
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fariz stuka is not a jagdbomber its a specialized ground attack aircraft original designed for near verticle bombing. Adapted later as a tank killer.
Ground attack aircraft aren't always fighterbombers. :)
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Actually, with 4x20 or 4x20 and 2x30 guns plus a 250kg bomb, 190A8 is far better jabo than 190F8, so, IMO, with the current loadout options, 190F8 has no role at all in the game.
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Originally posted by eddiek
(SIGH).......LW fans clamored for the 190F-8, said it was 190 version of Jabo....now they got it, and it ain't good enough.......(shakes head)
LW has their "real" jabo, at least from the hoopla dished out prior to it's release. Sheesh guys, what does it take to make ya'll happy?
:confused:
me personally? Just the loadouts they had.
how would you feel if the mosquito fighter/bomber only had 2x500 instead of 4x500lb? oh i forgot, it DID have an incorrect loadout and was fixed rather quickly wasnt it?
well i dont see the difference with what we ask for.
I fly 190a8 for jabo because i can destroy more in it than the 190f8. BUT, I still can only just destroy a hanger. I can only destroy 1 gv if they appear and if i didnt drop my bomb on first pass.
Now, with almost all allied stuff i can destroy a hanger in 1 pass.Basically all i want is a similar ability with an LW plane.
I dont care if its a me110, a me410, stuka or whatever(including added 190f8 loadouts) but it needs to have slightly more ordinance than 700kg.
eddeik call us whatever you like, whiners, moaners, ingrates whatever, i dont give a damn, I feel its a fair and simple request
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Simple answer for simple people:
HTC has to make new weapons for the 190F8. Changing a plane's loadout from two choices already modelled in the game is very simple. Creating new weapons is a whole other thing.
Got it now? It's not as simple as you might think.
-SW
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Well Said hazed, I had forgot about the Mosquito my self.
And please guys, don't drag the Ju88 into the jabo discussion, it's a bomber with dive bombing capebilities and it is in no way a plane that can hold its own after drop.
The 190F8 could carry alot more then these 700Kg, one common loadout was 1x500kg and 2x250kg.
I fear that even if we happen to get an Me410 in the future, it will be without most different loadout options, it had ALOT of options in Real life, both for twin 30mm either Mk103's or 108's aswell as 50mm anti tank guns with both HE and AP just aswell as many different bomb loads and it was used as a fast light bomber and attack airplane.
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Now, now hazed.......where did I call anyone a whiner? I simply stated my viewpoint. I didn't call anyone a whiner, or any other name for that matter.
Mossie loadout? I don't care about it, I don't fly the thing much. But if the loadout was wrong, and they jumped right in and corrected it, then the F-8 loadouts need to be adjusted or added to also.
As far as the loadouts for the different planes if they become available, like the Me-410, I don't care one way or another. Whatever sub-type 410 HTC introduces, there will be someone saying it doesn't have the right loadouts, wrong ammo types, etc......instead of appreciating the hard work that goes into creating that bird.
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most folks could live without the panzerschreck/panzerblitz rockets. But adding 250kg bombs wouldn't require anything new.
got it.......:rolleyes:
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It's not fixed (and WILL NOT be fixed) because Allied planes are liked more than horrible Axis pig planes. Plain and simple. :p
(it was a joke...) :D
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STUKA!!
Broesy
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Attaching them to the wings requires something new.
Got it? Changing what's being loaded into an already designated area is different than adding a new hard point option for the 250kg bomb.
It's not too hard to understand, is it?
-SW
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It's allready got wingpoint Swulfe, it uses them for the 50kg bombs, all you need is a different weight there.
Shouldn't take much more time to modell it new though IMO.
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oh no, not again :(
Although it's difficult to do, it can't be impossible given enough time. Will depend on priorities I assume.
To cut through all this stuff that sounds like everyone is suspicous of the other having hidden agendas, maybe the question should be if you're in favor giving the F8 a few more ordnance options or not. Do not factor in time frame, since that's not something that we should be ultimately deciding. Just a yes, or no and the why part optional (since that's where flames will most likely originate).
I'd say yes, in favor of giving the F8 more options. I was under the impression that they were indeed used in combat.
This is a valid concern, and having each one of these requests turn into pissing contests over perceived knowledge, bias, and "size" doesn't help anyone reading through it. See the other thread in the aircraft and vehicles area also. I personally don't care nation-wise who gets what (even wrt aircraft: P-47N/M fine, Ki-84 fine, Spit XIV fine b/c I fly what I want, everything else is either a target or a friendly). If allied aircraft are missing something be it RAF, RAAF, USAF, USN, VVS, RNZAF, IJAF, etc. then I'd like it to have it someday especially if it increases the effectiveness of the a/c. Napalm, big rockets, big bombs, cbu's, whatever nation. However, if someone from HTC enters the thread and says "no" then the matter should be dropped, period. I don't remember if Pyro or HT came in those earlier threads about the F8 and said "no" or not, but if they did then this should be dropped as a decision has been made.
mauser
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Look guys...the 110 we are getting fits the BoB planeset that we are getting this version and will fit very nicely for scenarios. Its a relatively simple step for them to take this 110 version and make into a late war version some time down the road. The amount of time it takes for Nate and Super to model one of these large twin engine aircraft is enormous. Just because we are getting an early war 110 which was asked for by the CM team does not mean that HTC is being unfair to the LW flyers out there.
Chill out and give them some time.....your late war 110 will get here eventually.
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Hey, HT.
Time to put up "Billy Connolly 'We want some of that, more of this, all of that, none of that, less of this, and most of the other...' sound file.
If it had it, if it was deployed and used operationally... sure, you betcha! Put it in.
Please just accept that there are 1,954,321 things left to model yet and that doesn't include the gameplay items.
Peace, grasshoppers. It just keeps getting better.
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Call me crazy but, wouldn't it make sense to fix what is already here then move forward? Would I be happy if they added 2 250 kg's on F8/A8 for loadout? Yup, better then what we have. And is it really that much harder to add? Not really I have dealt with coding and yes coding in games as well. (search for Close Combat III the Russian Front, my name is at the top as lead designer and developer). If it takes that much longer to add new rockets/loadouts, ok then don't but change it to carry 2 more heavier bombs, would that be hard? Not really IMO.
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Here's an idea.. instead of all this hand-wringing and idle speculation pick up your telephone and call HTC.
Ask THEM how long until you get what you want on the FW and the reasons for the things that are bothering you.
Simple fix. They're great folks... give 'em a ring!
Oh, yeah.. then tell us what they said. ;)
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The problem isn't that we have ill equiped LW aircraft... its that we have ill equiped LW pilots.
Oh well.. if their wifes are "ok" with that..
AKDejaVu
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Just a question................ Has anyone thought of lobbying for the
HS-129? I don't think it carried bombs or rockets, but it's mix of MG,20mm, and 30mm cannon would give you fellas a tank busting orgy.:)
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Wilbus, it has 4 wingpoints. You need to go back and rework the 190F8 so that it has provisions for the 250kg load out in both the hangar options menu and to ensure the plane will load it. The weight for the pylons would also need to be adjusted because instead of 4, there are 2- but these two probably weigh more because they carry a much higher weight.
Without looking at HTC's code, I can't tell you if it's an easy fix or not. But since nothing has been done since the lobby began, oh 6+ months ago, I think it's suffice to say that it's either a) on the low priority list or b) a little more than just changing a bit here and a bit there.
Sachs, I'm assuming that since you said "fix" you are implying something is broken.
Indeed, what you want "fixed" is not broken.
-SW
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And just another shot in the dark, how time consuming is it?
This is a business, they get more customers and keep more customers by producing a product and on a consistent basis updating it with a lot of new things and fixing bugs these new things may or may not bring.
You don't keep people interested in a product if you let it out in the air to dry while you work on all the requests about adding this to that or spending your valuable devel time on going back to change something for a very small portion of your customer base.
-SW
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To put 250 kg bombs on the wings of the F-8 you need ETC 503 racks x 2, which is a totally different hardpoint than existing ETC 50 x 4.
It's not clear if ETC 503 were used on F-8 in any quantity but they were used on the nearly identical Fw 190G-8 so it seems like a simple decision to add them.
The bombs are already in the game, so all they'd have to do is have the ETC 503 show up when you select bombs or drop tanks on the wings. They already do something like this with the Typhoon rocket rails so I doubt it would be difficult to do for Fw 190F-8.
There are some authors who say that about 120 F-8 were produced with rocket racks. There are some accounts of them being used in combat, and there are photos and drawings (search for my old post in the Aircraft forum) showing what they looked like and how they were attached. The rockets had extremely short range but they were used in battle against the USSR. HTC would have to build a new rocket model and new hardpoints on the F-8 for this. Again there is already a precedent for this on the Typhoon.
Should they do it? Yeah if they have the time. Few F-8 had rockets, and even fewer probably had ETC 503 on the wings, but it would be a fairly easy change and it would make the plane more fun and more useful in scenarios.
Will they do it? I dunno. They have already spent an incredible amount of time on 190 series development. And the F-8 is pretty much a scenario plane, getting very little use in the MA. So I don't know if they are willing to spend the time on it.
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BTW
Carrying 3 250 kg bombs on the 190 was an overload. The plane needed a LOT of runway. The only other planes in AH that are allowed to carry overloads like that are the Ju 88 and P-47D-30.
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see hazed's last post pls
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Originally posted by Sachs
Just curious, we have the F8 but is it really a Jabo? It would be nice to be able to carry a little more ordinance to hit a base. And we all know it carried more then what is listed in AH right now. I am also for adding the attack category to the B-26, Ju-88 and TBM. With the new 110 coming into play it will carry the same ordinance as a F8 so in essence we are not getting a true dedicated jabo. Me-410 would have been a nice addition, (sigh) won't ever happen I am afraid. KI-102 would have been a great choice for a new Jabo IMO. Anyway, frustrated thats all.
You have one...it's called a Ju88.
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otter you dont read much eh?
ju88 is a bomber, has no forward guns to be of any use straffing and is a 1940 model with very low powered engines.
allied equivalent? b26 from 1942/43? b17 from 1944...mossie/p47/p38 etc all late war models.
however this post seems to have turned sour with all those that dont want 190s with their historical loadouts accusing those that are asking for them of the cardinal sin of greed for actually ASKING (heaven forbid) for them!.oooh we so bad. ;)
well if you read a post in aircraft and vehicles you will see pyro has posted that he is looking into some more loadout options on the 190s time permitting so thats all i needed to hear.Discussion closed for me :D
P.s funked if 3x 250 was overloaded? but its only 50kg more than whats on there now.
500+2x250kg you mean? but even then i think you are wrong as there was a varient (190F8/U3) fitted with TSA bomb sight for anti shipping strikes that carried a BT700 (1,543lb[700kg]) or the BT1400 (3,086lb [1400kg!]) weapon.
also the 190G-1 fighter-bomber was derived from the fw190a5, but carried a 3,968lb [1800kg!] bomb which necessitated strenthened landing gear: wingmounted armament was reduced to 2x mg151/20 cannon, and the junkers-designed wingracks accomodated 2 66-imp gal (300 litre) drop tanks.
so thats 1800kg + whatever 2x300litre DTs weigh and it wasnt overloaded.
3x250kg overloaded? I think bullsheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet :D.
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otter jabo = jagdbomber = fighter bomber
why dont you go read this thread again its only been stated clear as day twice.
again if you had read this thread you would also know that theres no attack option for the ju88 (as AG is asking for) so gvs kills dont get recorded.
again read the thread before you reply. :rolleyes:
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Here yah go Toad. ;)
The Luftwhiner Wish List (http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/lol.wav)
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I guess the only "problem" I have with all the "requests" is that not all the ordinance asked for was available on any one model of the F8. Least not from any of the sources I have been able to use.
F8/U3 carried a super large egg.......was it able to be fitted with all the other stuff that is requested? If not, be specific as to what sub-type you are referring to when you make the requests.
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eddiek,
Why do we need a sub-sub-type for each aircraft?
We have the F-8 airframe and it should have as many of the "U" packs as possible.
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Hazed, you are right, I meant 500 kg x 1 + 250 kg x 2.
And overloaded doesn't mean the plane can't take off or fly. It just means you are over the maximum "book" gross takeoff weight. Performance will suffer. When you put that much weight on an already overweight airplane with tiny wings, it's not going to be easy or pleasant to fly. I'm sure a guy like you can understand that but I expect to hear some complaining from the average dweeb when he tries to take off with all that stuff loaded.
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vv funkedup i see what you mean but after reading your post i went looking to see if i could find some info on the way the 190 handled with max weight, i read about those torpedos and then that massive 1800kg+2x300ltr DTs loadout and thought to myself it cant have been overly difficult to fly.
so i attacked guns blazing :D
and on a lighter trawl..........
If i was to start questioning what was possible for the overloaded planes I might well question the maximum loadouts on the F4u's and f6fs taking off of carriers in AH.
After all the carrier in AH is by no means the same length as the ones used in WW2 is it? Im not entirely sure but I think the AH deck is far shorter but its still possible to take off fully loaded(e.g. F4uc, 2000lb+4x3.5in rockets+400rds of 20mm cannon and full fuel weighs what?) in the US stuff.Was this ever attempted in real life i wonder?
True you can see photos of heavily laden F4u's etc but they could be land based for all I know.Can I have evidence to support this inclusion in the game? if no one can show it in evidence then what would be a reasonable compromise?
I'll settle for a few more loadout options on the 190f8 or am i being greedy here?(insert Billy Connolly)
:)
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Originally posted by Wotan
fariz stuka is not a jagdbomber its a specialized ground attack aircraft original designed for near verticle bombing. Adapted later as a tank killer.
Ground attack aircraft aren't always fighterbombers. :)
Thanks for info :rolleyes: BTW, I ment Ju87G. :)
Also, if you luftwhiners will keep asking for more uber planes I will send HTC some booz to model he123 as your only and main jabo and fighter plane! :p
Fariz
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i would fly a he123
add a couple of polish russian bi-planes e might get a polish campaign going...
ju87g i think had 6 rounds per gun not really a jabo either :)
should be one hell of a tank destroyer though...atleast fer rudel it was :)
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In my opinion, yer all worried about the wrong F8. I'm holding out for an F-8 Crusader in good ol' USMC 'Nam markings. That's just the ticket for some Jabo.
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The U usualy often describes that the factory put the racks for the bombs there instead of the mechanics on the field, manu of the different U variants didn't have any performance difference, just loadout.
Don't quite understand the people who rack down on us for requesting historical loadouts, you so anti "not your plane" that you can't accept what other people want? :confused:
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Something else to take account and might be considered much more difficult to portray is, perhaps, adding loadout options which ommit the total wheights of the ammo and MG131 pods. Also, of course, fuel load so perhaps the overall take off ground roll and performance may decrease but I do believe once the airplane is in the air on cruise speed it will fly smooth,you won't be able to maneuver much but you'll leave a nice dent on the Bishit Gang machine.