Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Am0n on January 30, 2002, 09:10:35 AM
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Only situation i have a sevre problem with is battling a co-alt or ecspecaily a ALT superior SpitIX in my p47.
What would be the way to appraoch this situation for the p47?
lets say p47(cruising speed of 250) @ 10k, spits @ 12-13k.
Only thing ive found to be effective is explioting the high rollrate of the p47 at high speeds, but that seems to only make my death more prolonged. i can loose them from diving, roll right faking a bank (for example), roll left and barrel roll, but he will eventauly work his way back to superior position.
thanks in advance, hopefully i'll be seeing some of you up soon! :cool:
**EDIT**
BTW, im also open to sugestions on fighting a YAK in the given situation, my current tactic is to hope that he is REAL low on ammo lol (not a very effective one i should add)
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Let me go through some films, and see if I have one within the attached file limit.
Drex
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If you could that would be awesome, film is the most helpful tool ive found in AH.
thanks again
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Well, the Spit IX it's possible to escape from. Yes, you must be careful how you do it, but you can. The Yak is your toughest enemy, because you can't run from him... he'll get you.
First... you never want to be in a disadvantaged position versus these planes. They are just overall very dangerous to a jug pilot, and although you can fight them if you have an advantage, you don't want to have to face them from a disadvantage. Given equal pilots in the setup you mention, the Jug pilot will lose eventually.
But, what can you do if you weren't dilligent enough with your SA and you get in this situation? Well, it depends on the setup really, but basically you have to wait for him to attack you. You'll want to ensure you are flying around 250 Mph so you have lots of speed to work with for evasives. A shallow dive as he comes in is often good, because it will increase his speed as he attacks, and you can use that to your advantage. Given that you have enough speed to work with, you are going to have to try and force an overshoot. Luckily, the P47 can scrub speed much faster than the Spit IX or the Yak, and that's the advantage you need to work with. It will depend on how smart the attacker is, but the basic idea will be to use some sort of a break turn or barrel roll to defeat his guns solution and try and make him overshoot. Use maneuvers that will increase his angle off as he attacks (break into him) and try to keep as much speed as you can. If he avoids the overshoot and goes up where you can't follow him, you'll have to 0G dive and gain speed again and wait for the next pass. If he overshoots, roll onto his tail and gun his brains out. The minute he pulls out of range of your guns, if he is headed upwards break off and 0G dive for speed again, resist the temptation to follow him upwards if he has more energy and you can't gun him down before you stall. Try to maintain at least 200 Mph at all times so you have enough speed to maneuver defensively. If he does overshoot though, you may be able to use flaps and the Jug's good low speed handling to make the shot and end the fight right there. Just be ready and time it right... and don't miss. :)
Drex has some really really nice moves to force the overshoot. Hopefully he'll put up a film that demonstrates them. If not, maybe he'll make a comment about it. :)
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Heya Drex,
I have a website I can post films at if you wanna email 'em to me (if they are too big for the file limit here). Email is nimitz@huckabay.net
Amon, in that situation, if you choose to fight and not run, there is one move that I like to use. Since many Spit IX pilots are new and young AH pilots, it works particularly well with them. What I like to do is pull the Spit IX in fast, and use my roll and good instantenous turn to gain quick angles for a snapshot. The way I go about this is I get my speed to around 250 ... and hold it there. The Spit when he sees a jug low will start to salivate ... looking for an easy kill. Down he comes ... I fly nice and straight for him, watching. As he gets to about d1.5 or so, I will start a gradual, low-G turn (left or right, we'll say right in this example). Watch for the spit to take lead pursuit (and he will). Once the Spit commits to lead pursuit, start to tighten that turn up ... tighter and tighter as the spit closes. Just as the Spit is in guns range, reverse hard left and UP at about 45 degrees. WATCH for tracers and dont lose sight of the spit. He will likely be about to pass UNDER you from your low 5 OC, but he'll still be pretty quick. Get ready to roll down and take a snapshot. As the spit overshoots, and after your shot, disengage and setup another attack.
Hope this helps...
Nim
Nim
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Nice description Nimitz.
If I remember right, this is very similar to the move Drex uses quite a bit. It's quite effective against spits as well due to their great E retention, they don't tend to slow down much in the turn and they'll overshoot much of the time.
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This is why I hardly ever lead turn if I've got the E-advantage in a Spit. ;) From the attacker's point of view in this situation, keeping AOT (angle off tail) to a minimum is the way to stick on the defender's 6. What Nim describes increases AOT for the attack as he pulls the lead turn. This helps force a) the overshoot and b) the attacker losing sight of you under his nose due to the bank of the turn.
Fortunately, few TnB pilots are going to stay in a pure or lag pursuit against a larger plane. They know they can out turn you, so that's what they're going to try and do to setup the shot.
What I like to do if I'm in the attacking situation and the defender does what Nim describes is to just follow the low G turn, usually, taking it a little wider if the defender tightens it. By maintaining my speed, I can do the wider turn faster than the defender is doing his tighter turn. Also, the defender will lose sight of me, and he's well in my field of vision. I'm gonna get a good shot out of this, unless the defender is savvy and reverses the turn quickly, and we're now looking at a possible scissors attempt, which is another post in itself!
Point I'm trying to make is be prepared for the attacker to do something different than the last attacker did. Chances are they will pull lead turn, but it's possible that Leviathn or SirLoin is in that Spit, in which case, they just might not pull lead. ;)
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99% of the spit pilots will pull lead. I never have to worry abuot Levy ... he's a spit V and we're talkin' about spit IX.
If the Spit 9 does not take lead, then the jug is fediddleed. A patient spit 9 stick with E should beat the pants off the jug everytime.
Nim
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If you are fighting a Spit pilot from a position of disadvantage, and that Spit pilot is sharp enough to fly the Spit (either one) as an E fighter, you are likely already dead. The Spit is one of the best E fighters in the game. If you try this move and he drops into lag pursuit and waits... run like heck towards friends at the first opportunity, because he's not going to make the normal mistake.
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I tried this manuever after I read it in your message about "what to do in this situation" and it does work. I'm a below average fighter pilot too. The times I tried it, I never actually shot anyone down, but they always ended up below and in front of me.
My turns are kind of sloppy so I never was able to point my plane to shoot, but at least they weren't on my six anymore. Thanks for the help.
GeeWally
Originally posted by aknimitz
Heya Drex,
Amon, in that situation, if you choose to fight and not run, there is one move that I like to use. Since many Spit IX pilots are new and young AH pilots, it works particularly well with them. What I like to do is pull the Spit IX in fast, and use my roll and good instantenous turn to gain quick angles for a snapshot. The way I go about this is I get my speed to around 250 ... and hold it there. The Spit when he sees a jug low will start to salivate ... looking for an easy kill. Down he comes ... I fly nice and straight for him, watching. As he gets to about d1.5 or so, I will start a gradual, low-G turn (left or right, we'll say right in this example). Watch for the spit to take lead pursuit (and he will). Once the Spit commits to lead pursuit, start to tighten that turn up ... tighter and tighter as the spit closes. Just as the Spit is in guns range, reverse hard left and UP at about 45 degrees. WATCH for tracers and dont lose sight of the spit. He will likely be about to pass UNDER you from your low 5 OC, but he'll still be pretty quick. Get ready to roll down and take a snapshot. As the spit overshoots, and after your shot, disengage and setup another attack.
Hope this helps...
Nim
Nim
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Umm...could I get a definition of lag turn and lead turn...so i can tell whether I'm doing it right?
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Hiyas Majic,
I'll do my best to explain, but Drex or Andy could do a much better job that I.
A lead turn is a turn wherein you point the nose of your aircraft ahead of the nme plane you are chasing so as to gain angles and close the distance. It is an agressive maneuver, and typically can be taken advantage of by a skilled nme.
A lag turn is exactly the opposite. Instead of point your nose AHEAD of the nme to attempt to CLOSE the distance, you put the nose of your plane BEHIND the nme, and try to MAINTAIN distance. It is a much more patient maneuver, and is used to kinda keep the nme on a leash so to speak.
However, a lag turn can be in effect a disengaging maneuver if you are not careful. Lets say you are a Spit 9 and there is an La5 ahead of you, 1.2. The la5 is in a low-G turn, and you have a bit of E and could sweep in and take a lead position and attempt to get angles and a shot. However, if you choose to take a lag position, you will likely be disengaging the plane. The La5 accelerates well and has a much higher top end than the Spit 9, so a patient move such as this will more than likely allow the La5 to escape, wherein a lead turn would at least give you a shot.
I hope this helps, I'd be happy to go with you to the TA and demonstrate lead versus lag turns if you think that might help.
Nim
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thanks all of you, good stuff.
Im just glad to here im not the only one that sees this scenerio as a huge problem.
hate to sound like a dweeb but a spitIX or ecspecaily a YAK is going to get HO'd buy me the first chance i get, and in that case i'll win most of the time. But if there smart enough not to go nose to nose with me they are normaly smart enough to overall conquore(sp) me in every other aspect, because we all know the disadvantage you are left at if you make a failed HO attempt.
does anyone find high speed rolling scrissors effective against spitIX or YAK? they seem to always stay with me, but im probably doing it wrong.
Can someone please answer this question? Its kinda off the subject but i need to know. When you proform ACM, or a series of them, are you using stick deflection the entire time, or just finding the directional heading for a certain point of the manuever and letting off deflection.
Also when going from a alerion roll to pulling up on elevators is it best to go from pure wing-roll, center stick then pull back(L movement), or best to go from pure wing-roll strait to pulling back (which is diangle movement)? is the later causing much more drag?
thanks again, i havent played in a couple weeks and trying to find a new approach to flying to maybe get on the right track.
*BTW*
film film film!! please :cool: (any of yas!)
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hehe I understood very little of your post with all that fancy language :) My fancy language is quite limited, I'd be happy to resopnd but you'd have to break it down for me.
Regarding the high speed rolling scissor .... not a bad idea at all. I would start it out as a high speed defensive barrel roll and let it develop into a rolling scissor should that be the case. Meaning, lets say there is a Spit 9 your 6 and closing like a sumsqueak. But lets say you have around 250 IAS. Nose down a bit, then throw her into a big defensive barrel roll. I'd throw down 1 maybe 2 notches of flaps. The spit will likely take shots as it flies through your roll, and if your paying good attention, you should have a snap shot coming out of you roll on the overshoot.
If the fight actually develops into a rolling scissor, the longer the fight the great the chances for the Spit. You gotta use instanteneous turn and hi speed roll to try to get a snapshot quick. The longer the fit goes and the smaller your E gets, the less likely you are gonna pull this one out.
Nim
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If you are a good enough shot and these guys are silly enough to give you an easy HO shot... by all means take it. Just beware the spits, because they have Hispanos, which are very good guns with good range for a forward quarter shot. The Yak has much worse guns, so I'd be a lot more comfortable taking the HO shot versus the Yak... plus I can't run from the Yak so I'll take that shot if offered to me.
It is NOT dweeby to use your plane's strengths. If your gun package and shooting skills compare favourably to the other guy's, it might be worth going for the HO shot. It's just risky is all. Nothing dweeby about taking the shot when it's likely to end in your favour. If the other guy doesn't want to be shot HO, it's quite simple for him to evade it and set you up for a lead turn. If people whine at you for "HOing them", they are just pissed at themselves because they did something dumb and got shot down. Just realize that if you are planning on actually fighting this guy after the merge, taking the HO shot against a good pilot will give him a slight angles and energy advantage at the merge. A good time to take a HO shot is as you dive to run like hell for home or friendlies, it's not a move you want to use if you plan to stay in the fight IMO. You also want to be a damn good shot if you take the true HO shots... better make sure you are a better shot than the other guy and can nail him at longer range than he can nail you. Otherwise it might be best to just evade and bug out.
Now about the high-speed rolling scissors, no I don't find that effective versus those planes either. There are two reasons for this, first they are not terrible rolling planes even at speed, and second a rolling scissors tends to bleed speed pretty fast when you are flying a Jug. The whole point of any type of scissors move is to fly more slowly, so maintaining a high-speed rollings scissors is pretty pointless. The result is that they can stay with you long enough for you to bleed down to speeds where those planes are going to hand you your bellybutton on a plate. If I'm trying to escape from these guys, I'm likely going to dive my butt to 600 MPH or as close as I can get and level out at worm-burning level with as much speed as possible. Executed after any decent escape maneuver to generate some separation, and if I don't escape I can at least cover quite a bit of ground before they catch me, often enough to get help. The one thing the Jug rules at is the 0G dive to INSANE SPEED (TM) and maintaining controls and flight surfaces at the same time, so if I'm really in trouble I'll go for that every time. If I don't think I can escape that way, or I think I can turn the tables (depending on what I've seen of the other pilot's skill at this point) I'll be working on some kind of an overshoot maneuver such as we discussed above. It might start from a high-speed rolling scissors, but then turn into seeing who can burn speed off faster to see if I can get an overshoot. Of course if it doesn't work, I'm doomed. :D
Now about control movements. It depends on the maneuver and the situation. I blend my movements much of the time, it's far more important that you are deliberate and smooth in your movements I believe. Sometimes though, pulling G's affects your performance, particularly in roll. If you unload to 1G or less, you will find your aircraft will roll much more quickly than under G load, so if I'm trying to roll really fast, I will stop pulling while I roll, then resume pulling once I've rolled to my new attitude.
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Originally posted by aknimitz
hehe I understood very little of your post with all that fancy language :) My fancy language is quite limited, I'd be happy to resopnd but you'd have to break it down for me.
what i mean buy stick deflection is simply pulling the stick in the given direction. Or if centered, thats zero defelction.
that what you was talking about?
example would be proforming a flat turn. Are you going to hold the stick back the whole time, at the same ammount of elevator angle or "pull release, pull release, pull release"?
Also Lephturn if you wouldnt mind could you explain the logic of when you would and would not use the different movements?
thanks again, always a pleasure.
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Originally posted by Am0n
Also Lephturn if you wouldnt mind could you explain the logic of when you would and would not use the different movements?
thanks again, always a pleasure.
Ok, you lost me. Would and would not use what movements... stick movements? I don't specifically pay much attention to the stick movements I use really, I'm just thinking about what I want the plane to do. The only thing I try to consciously do in terms of moving the stick is I try to be smooth and deliberate, by that I mean I try not to jerk the stick too fast or "over control". I used to drive race cars, and as it was in that situation, being smooth is very important.
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Amon,
I've gone through about 30 films and want to go through another 40 or so, and will send them to aknimitz to post. Bare with me :)
Drex
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drex thanks bro, really appreitciate it :cool:
film helps me more than anything for learning.
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Lephturn just asking about the movements i previously mentioned (L stick movement vrs diangle movements). But as you mentioned i should really just pay attention to the fluidness of the movement and not how i got the stick from point A to B.
My concern is really which one if either bleeds energy more quickly. I would think the diangle movement would bleed more energy so it would be best to use that type of stick movement when manuevering for a over-shoot.
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Great thread gents. :)
Thanks for starting it Amon, and to the rest for answering . :D
I've been playing with the Jug for a bit and am looking forward to seeing those films too !! :cool:
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thank you for the definition...perfectly clear.
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Wow guys, you demonstrated that fly is a SCIENCE not only instinct.
I'm thinking about the hours did you spend to achieve this experience ;)
You'r GREAT!!!
YahooOOOOOoooooOOo...........
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Ok, flew last night and found a 1 on 1 with a spitV that was above me. I know its not a spitIX, but I need 2 days off to catagories my films. After the fight you can turn it off as I got beat up pretty bad and rtb'd then went afk with the film rolling. I sent it to nimitz to post. I'll send some better ones that show some other approaches against spits.
to Yams who flew it smart and made a very enjoyable fight.
Drex
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Ok fellas, here ya go. Below is the link to the first film sent to me by Drex. It is his P47D-25 against a Spit V, a much more challenging fight in my opinion that a P47D-25 against a Spit IX. Excellent flying to Drex and Yams.
Enjoy!
Nim
P47D25 versus Spit V (http://members.home.net/nimitz53/spiton6.ahf)
Sorry Drex, I knew that, dont know what I was thinking.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
Nice description Nimitz.
If I remember right, this is very similar to the move Drex uses quite a bit. It's quite effective against spits as well due to their great E retention, they don't tend to slow down much in the turn and they'll overshoot much of the time.
Thats a move that works well against ANY plane that is faster than you. Its a reversal which many of us live by.
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I see so many pilots flying the thunderbolts and I see em getting kills, the best rule for me to remember is if there is a p47 over head he's probably not a rooky(this can be said for almost anyone flying over 15k) But I have had no succes with the thing, mabey its me but the mustang...now theres a fighter, faster under 15k better energy retention, more fuel, more manuverable. The only plusses I can think of for driving a thunderbolt is the two extra 50.'s and the initial dive accel. Even when a p47 is over me and even if he is a great pilot in the end all I really need to do is get down on the deck and let the 51's higher speed take me away(this of course is based on the assumption that I SEE him before he dives) In short WHATS THE DEAL WITH THE THUNDERBOLT? share the wealth guys tell me why its so gooooood:confused: Poppysead.
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Well first of all, many of us fly it because it's our favourite ride, not because it's the best. In fact, I enjoy the challenges of flying a ride that isn't really the "best" thing at arena combat. I like the Jug because it's big, mean, fast, and has lots of guns. It's the best .50 based gunset in the game, and I've always preferred the .50's to cannon birds of any stripe. Oh, and it's got a stinkpile of ammo too. I can't shoot for beans, but I've got pretty decent E fighting skills, so the Jug just fits my style and my skills. Plus it's a much better looking plane than those tiny Spits and Ponies.
Why is the Jug better than the Pony? Well it's definately tougher and has better firepower. I find it has much superior low speed handling as well to be honest. It's a pretty forgiving bird all around as long as you make sure the Aux tank is empty before you start stall fighting in it. I think the Pony is certainly a better E fighter and it runs better, but that's about it. While the Pony's sustained turn is likely a bit better due to it's better E retention, I'll stallfight a Pony in my Jug any day. It's really going to come down to pilot skill and fuel load in my experience. Sure the Pony is faster, but it doesn't accellerate fast enough to escape without giving a Jug driver a good shot at it's tail first. And lord help you if you try to dive away from a Jug. :D
I also like the Jug because it's not all that common and it's often under-estimated. There is nothing I like better than seeing a SpitIX and knowing the last thing he will expect is for me to turn with him... right before I turn with him. :D
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Nimitz,
I wasn't in the D-11. D-25
Drex
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Yeah, sorry Drex. I knew that, I even have it as D25 on the website itself. Not sure why I put D11. I edited previous post.
Nim
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Very nice thread wtg.
but Lephturn are u sure that u can outturn a Spit with ur P47 ?
I want to see it.
So i am onlin nearly every day. It would be cool to have a duel against u. Call me dweeb but i love my SpitV and i never got shot down by a brick plane(p47).
So if u have time a duel wopuld be cool.
bets Freeze
P.S learned a lot in this thread i wish there would be more like this
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I wouldn't be so sure about the excellence of flying of Yams. From what I saw from the film, he could have killed drex almost at any given moment if he just chopped his throttle and saddled in.
Instead he flew the spit b&z and never scored proper hits in addition of flying straight in front of drex's guns too.
He obviously also lost drex a couple times because he extended to vertical and away from the escaping P47. Even from this huge separation, the P47 had no chance of escaping from spit's dive speed.
The D25 that low has so poor acceleration that he would have dominated the fight from the moment on he slowed down enough not to overshoot. The spit could outturn the D25 with ease unless he was speeding like nuts like he did.
Anyways, that's my opinnion after viewing the film.
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Originally posted by freeze
Very nice thread wtg.
but Lephturn are u sure that u can outturn a Spit with ur P47 ?
I want to see it.
So i am onlin nearly every day. It would be cool to have a duel against u. Call me dweeb but i love my SpitV and i never got shot down by a brick plane(p47).
So if u have time a duel wopuld be cool.
bets Freeze
I never said a P-47 would out turn a Spit. :) I said I'd turn with a Spit, but that is a different thing entirely. And I am referring mainly to the Spit IX, the Spit V is a much better turner. Under the right circumstances though, almost any plane can "out turn" any other plane. For example, althought he Spit V has very good sustained turning abilities, at speeds above about 300 Mph or so, the Jug will have a better initial turn performance due to it's ability to bleed E while the Spit V will be far above it's best corner speed.
The whole point here is that it's all about energy and how you use it. The Jug is very good at burning E to get a very fast turn rate for a short period of time, while the Spits are very good at maintaining their energy to get a good sustained turn rate and a tight turn radius. If I'm the P-47 pilot, I simply must use my plane to it's best advantage to win.
As for a duel in a Spit V vs. a P-47... well that's almost silly. No Jug driver in his right mind would engage co-E with a Spit V. The Jug needs an E advantage to win fights, and a head to head duel isn't one of those situations. What the Jug driver has though is speed, so he can escape from the Spit V easily and return only with an energy advantage. When the Jug has an E advantage though, the tables turn, and he can control the fight and make attacks on the Spit from a superior position using a fast initial turn rate to tag the breaking Spit. It's a fun battle, and one that the P-47 is quite capable of winning and the Spit doesn't have the option of escape. In a 1v1 duel the Spit V would easily win, but put both planes in the arena and I'll take the Jug every time thank you. From a position of advantage, the Jug is quite capable of killing a Spit V, and even better, the Jug can extend or escape at any time.
Lets just look at our stats. Hmmm, in tour 24 you had 228 kills in the Spit V and have died in it 131 times. You got killed by Jugs 8 or 9 times, but not necessarily flying the Spit V. I on the other hand, had 34 kills in the P-47-D30 and died only 5 times in it. Oh, and I pegged a couple of Spit V's in it as well. Now the stats really don't mean much honestly, but I'm trying to illustrate why I like the Jug... it's a good killer and very survivable. Although it doesn't excell 1v1 from equal E states like the Spit V does, it certainly does work well for arena combat.
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Got it ! lol
Freeze
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No offense to Drex, but I have to agree with mrsid for the most part. It looked like Yams was doing blackout turns most of the time.
In my experience with spit vs jug co-e situation, the jug driver has to start with alot of speed, then dump it really fast in a few tight turns to get guns on the spit. That lasts maybe 30 seconds. If it doesnt work, at some point the spit will go vertical and the Jug has no hope of following. Then the Jug has no option but to dive and get separation, like in the film. By timing the dive right, i can usually escape. If the spit has too much speed or if I dont feel like running, I just start the process over again. But since I'm on the deck by now theres no chance to dive away. I dont often win if it gets to that point, and if I do its often by making the spit auger in.
In a multi plane engagement the Jug does much better. A tiny burst of 8x50s will cripple a spit, and theyre pretty easy to pick off when they concentrate on someone else.
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No offense taken. I'm just reacting to what his plane is doing. :)
To set up why he went into BNZ mode is that he knew it was me. I had been fighting him and honch all evening, and its not likely that there will be more then one green machine in that area. So he took a cautious approach. If any of you would like to go to the dueling arena and help me make a film of a spit 5k-10k above a p47 I would greatly appreciate it. Should be a great learning aid.
Drex
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I'd love to ... gimme a shout anytime you wanna do it.
Nim
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Give me a call tonight Nim and we'll head over there.
Drex
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Ok, now you know I have moved since I had your number :D Gimme it again! (nimitz@huckabay.net)
Nim
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Drex, I'm not home till the weekend, but if you'd like to set up any situation vs a jug for filming pruposes you may use me as a sparring partner.
Joe Rarey
joe_rarey@yahoo.com
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I'll send you an email when I get home Fes.
Drex
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Originally posted by freeze
Got it ! lol
Freeze
One point. In real aircraft, flying at speeds above 300 mph, the determining factor in who out-turns who is only based upon the individual pilot's ability to withstand G, period. If the sim is modeled correctly (read that as fairly), both pilots will blackout at the same G loading. So, if their relative speeds are the same and above 300 mph, a Jug can match turns with anything in the arena. It's only when speeds go below the Jug's corner velocity that it really begins to lose ground.
There are other mitigating factors that show up in ACM. For example, the Zero's ailerons tighten up severely as speeds increase beyond 300 mph. Got one on your tail? Unload (or dive), accelerate to 350+, and then roll quickly into a break turn. Viola! You have disengaged. It worked in real life and it works here too.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ty for that Zero tip ill try that for sure.
Freeze
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Originally posted by freeze
Ty for that Zero tip ill try that for sure.
Freeze
Try this, in fact every newbie player should try this at least once. Go offline, select the A6M5, take off and climb to 10,000 feet. At full throttle, push the nose over. As your airspeed exceeds 350 mph, try rolling the airplane. You will experience the primary weakness of the Zero. Knowing that, you will be able to exploit that weakness when the need arises.
My regards,
Widewing
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I disagree with that widewing. It may have been true in real life, but the AH zero can still be flown at speeds beyond 300mph... using the trim tabs.
Ive had zeros follow my P-38 on a 420mph dive and the zero aiming and following my turn (while diving at 400mph). Trimming the aleirons and kicking rudder on the zeke will make it turn, albeit like an 80 mph unflapped 38, but it will turn. And if it can turn, it can aim. :(
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Originally posted by Widewing
One point. In real aircraft, flying at speeds above 300 mph, the determining factor in who out-turns who is only based upon the individual pilot's ability to withstand G, period. If the sim is modeled correctly (read that as fairly), both pilots will blackout at the same G loading. So, if their relative speeds are the same and above 300 mph, a Jug can match turns with anything in the arena. It's only when speeds go below the Jug's corner velocity that it really begins to lose ground.
Yes, but only if they both stay at 300 Mph. My point is that if for example a Spit IX and a Jug are both at 300 MPH, they can both turn about the same... G limit as you say. The real issue is that during that turn, the Jug will slow down much more quickly and approach it's corner speed more quickly than the Spit IX will pulling the same G load. The result is that although they start the turn with the same performance, the Jug pilot will bleed speed more quickly, and his turn radius will decrease much more quickly than a plane that holds it's E much better in a corner. The end result is that from 300 Mph, for about one turn the jug can "out turn" the Spit, simply because it slows down faster, tightening it's turn radius and approaching it's best corner speed much more quickly than the Spit. Now sure, a sharp Spit driver can cut throttle to try and get the same results, but so can the Jug driver, and while the advantage won't last very long, the Jug driver can still get a better initial turn from medium to high speed. The trick is to fly the Jug in a manner that will allow kill opportunities using it's great initial turn performance, but avoiding a situation where the Spit's superior sustained turning performance will come into play. :)
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Originally posted by Tac
I disagree with that widewing. It may have been true in real life, but the AH zero can still be flown at speeds beyond 300mph... using the trim tabs.
Ive had zeros follow my P-38 on a 420mph dive and the zero aiming and following my turn (while diving at 400mph). Trimming the aleirons and kicking rudder on the zeke will make it turn, albeit like an 80 mph unflapped 38, but it will turn. And if it can turn, it can aim. :(
Sure, it'll turn, but like a three-legged turtle. A reasonably fast rolling fighter can break way with ease. However, the Zero must be fairly close. To do this at 1.5k or greater is useless as the geometry still favors the Zeke. At .7 or .8, the Zeke won't be able to keep a guns solution.
Here's another way to shake a Zeke. You did it and don't even know that you did. I spotted a P-38 chasing a Spitfire in a shallow dive below me. I was flying a Zeke. I split-s and head down, about 30 degrees off the P-38's 6. I set up a nice lead pursuit that will give me a great shot once the range comes down. As the range drops to 1.2k, The P-38 smokes the Spit and eases up his nose above the horizon. Meanwhile, I'm haulin' freight, about 410 mph TAS. The Zeke is groaning like hell, but I want the shot before the P-38 spots me. When the P-38's nose comes up, I have to ease in some back pressure to keep the correct deflection. Just then, BANG... The wings come off. I lawn darted just behind the Lightning. Then, in the message buffer I see, "Tac shot you down". You got the proxy credit, and I'll wager you had no idea why. :D
My best,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Lephturn
Yes, but only if they both stay at 300 Mph. My point is that if for example a Spit IX and a Jug are both at 300 MPH, they can both turn about the same... G limit as you say. The real issue is that during that turn, the Jug will slow down much more quickly and approach it's corner speed more quickly than the Spit IX will pulling the same G load.
I agree. With the P-47, you will have trade altitude for speed if you want to keep at or above corner. Which, obviously, only exacerbates your problem.
A few weeks ago, I took a P-47D-30 up to 32k, just to see how it performed relative to actual flight test data. Being up there for quite a while, I had wandered deep into Injun territory. I spot a dot up at my height, which eventually becomes a red-tagged Bf 109. I suppose this guy thought he had a B-17, so he came to have a look. Whether or not he was surprised to find a Jug, I can't say. However, he was surprised to have that Jug easily work its way onto his tail, despite his best efforts. Finally, grasping his tenuous situation, he split-s'd and ran for the deck. Not being inclined to chase him that deep into enemy territory, I simply headed for the barn. However, I now had confidence that the Jug could handle just about anything it might encounter up in the thin air.
Too bad so little combat takes place at these altitudes. Designed as a high altitude fighter, the Jug is without peer in its element.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hehe, yep the Jug can really rock upstairs. That's why even though it's not very popular in the arena, every time there is a scenario the Jug suddenly becomes the hot ride. :) Lots of these planes are great for furballing down low, but if you want to fight up at historical altitudes and still make it home, nothing beats the Jug IMO.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
I wouldn't be so sure about the excellence of flying of Yams. From what I saw from the film, he could have killed drex almost at any given moment if he just chopped his throttle and saddled in.
Instead he flew the spit b&z and never scored proper hits in addition of flying straight in front of drex's guns too.
Killed Drex at any given moment? Right, please send me your film of you doing this and then say I suck.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
Instead he flew the spit b&z and never scored proper hits in addition of flying straight in front of drex's guns too.
Figured I had him on the deck in the most vulnerable spot so instead of going vertical as I had done the entire fight I flat turned and wound up on the business end of Drex's 8 50s. The way I see it, that was the only mistake I made during the flight.
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Yams unfortunately I haven't had the chance of meeting drex as an opponent, much less with me in spit ix and him low & slow in a P47-d25.
My opinnion however was and is, that he was in such a low E state at that time and you were in such an advantageous position that you would have been able to kill him if you controlled your speed.
I can't see any reason why a spit pilot should approach a low P47 in a b&z attitude.. The spit outturns and outaccelerates the D25 down low. With an aggressive attitude the spit either kills the P47 or he escapes using his dive acceleration. In any case it's a better option than to fight the fight at speeds where the P47 has a chance of using its strong sides. With each time you zoomed him and pulled to vertical you were actually cutting him slack and giving him a chance to pull separation and speed to his jug.
Probably that was because you knew he was drex, the hot stick, and approached the fight cautiously.
I've flown p47 quite much lately and if I get a spit on my tail, my first priority is to get speed. If the spit denies that chance by saddling up my 6 and I can't make him overshoot, I'm pretty much out of options at that point. The spit accelerates very well in dives and it can do serious damage from D800 and up with the hispanos. It's a very tough job to try to outdive one in a jug if he only gets the chance of a shot.
I'd love to have a chance of replaying that situation with Drex in DA or TA, if he manages to kill me too from that position, I'll send you my public apologies Yams.
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mrsid2,
Did I know it was Drex? Yes.
Did it play a part in my strategy? You bet your ass.
Would I play it differently next time? Nope.
Your expoundings about the techincal differences, deficiencies, and advantages about both planes are all true. I don;t dispute any of that. I was trying to cut inside him but couldn't. He flew magnificently. I stopped trying to beat the pilot and started trying to beat the plane. I flew my plane to its advantages and to his disadvantages. We ended up on the deck. Now, I whole heartedly agree with you that 47 v. Spit on the deck is a no brainer. It's Spit all day long. I figured I had him on the ropes and did that dumb bellybutton flat turn. Hence, dead Spit.
Your opinions are all valid. However, they don't invalidate mine. I flew that fight with Drex that way because he is a far better pilot than I. I knew that he needed just one shot. Going vertical kept me out of his guns. Most could probably do better Im sure. Im no hot stick. I just enjoy this game and welcome any constructive criticism.
Good luck on your fight with him should you ever meet him. No apologizes necessary, win or loose. '-)
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After looking at the film myself, Yams, here are a few helpful hints:
The main problem I noticed was at the pass when you hit the P47s fuel, and you went back up, why didn't you just stay and finish him off? You then proceded to come back around and give him a shot when you were flatturning, you need to learn how to notice when someone has a shot on you like this and negate it. In the specific case I would have immeled around and roped him again.
Drex is an average pilot who learned most of his stuff from watching me fly the more challenging A8 in the same disadvantage situations.
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Originally posted by Widewing
One point. In real aircraft, flying at speeds above 300 mph, the determining factor in who out-turns who is only based upon the individual pilot's ability to withstand G, period.
You are forgetting a key factor here: elevator authority. And the spits shine in this area too.
You may try the following experiment in DA with another player. Pick up a P47D and climb to 10k to wing with a Spit. Then both do a smooth dive to reach 450 mph, u after the spit, at less than 300 yards. At 450 mph, both planes trimming nose up and pulling the joy as much as possible. Tell me if u are able to follow the spit.
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Drex is an average pilot who learned most of his stuff from watching me fly the more challenging A8 in the same disadvantage situations.
Don't forget about teaching me how to survive 6 goons BnZing my Jug. That was much appreciated.
Drex
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Hey Drex,
I've been tryin' to get a hold of you but havent seen you any and you dont ever answer your phone - bastige. Probably out practicing your natural golf :D
Anyway, check out this URL, its something I've thrown together per our discussion and I'm lookin' for feedback. Check out the Basic Combat Maneuv section and click on Split-S. Tell me what you think about the quality, etc. AKIron did that and we are working on making it a little more clear and crisp.
Virtual ACM Training Acadamy (http://gandalf.totalcs.com/vta)
Nim
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Just read the News section that Pyro updated. The new Film/edit system is going to make training much more effective. Wonder if old films will be compatable.
Drex
BTW the definition page is fugged up. You might want to look at it again.
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Originally posted by Yams
Killed Drex at any given moment? Right, please send me your film of you doing this and then say I suck.
Sometimes knowing who's yanking the stick in the other bird is a major issue....and personally I'd double the "pilot rating" for the jug vs the planes ability. A jug is so dependant on pilot skill compared to everything else in the arena. Unless you've run into drex or one of the other true jug aces (sancho and frenchy come to mind) you just can't truely understand how it'll warp the thought process. I certainly understand the logic yams used....he was fighting the other pilot...not the plane. I think realizing where the pilots ability and the actual limitations of the plane intersect is the toughest part about this "game".
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MrSid when would you like to set this up?
Drex
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I think we have a slight problem with the timezones, I live at GMT+2 and I've seen you online only a few times (we both fly rook..)
What time are you usually online? I'll try to join during that time and we can go to DA or TA..
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Dont fergit to film everyone! :) Drex, definitions page works fine with me. This is just a primer though, whattya think?
Nim
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I think the definition template is cool. The letter D and the letter M are messed up. In fact its almost criminal.
Drex
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LOL LOL - sorry bro, taken right outta the ACM Dictionary here on my desk.
:D
Nim
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Maybe you should put the definition of "l337" in there, Nim, so you can look it up instead of asking me what it means every time I say it. :P
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Great idea Levy! Done! :D
Nim
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L337! lol
this is horrible all this fuss about getting film and now AH crashes every time i try to veiw it! :o
Think i'll try my windows 98 partition and see if it works, windows XP has been nothing but problems for me. Good stuff here though guys
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Originally posted by aknimitz
Anyway, check out this URL, its something I've thrown together per our discussion and I'm lookin' for feedback. Check out the Basic Combat Maneuv section and click on Split-S. Tell me what you think about the quality, etc. AKIron did that and we are working on making it a little more clear and crisp.
Nim
Looks good i really should not judge quality on this POS computer here at work. when ever it loads up the clip it freezes with the clip board on the screen for a while, and the gamma seems kinda high.
i'll have to look at it on my home PC to really get a accurate judgement.
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Hey drex or anyone who knows.. what terrain is this film recorded on? thats gotta be why i cant veiw it, i have a fresh image on my system. ( im dieing to watch this!!)
thanks in advance!
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Can anyone tell me what terrain was used in the film drex made? i cannont play it with out the correct one. (new image, dont have all the terrains yet)
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NDIles....
Enjoy!