Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: streakeagle on January 30, 2002, 03:52:20 PM
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1. Someone like Jane Fonda, who broadcasts from the capital of a direct enemy of the United States in the middle of a war and stops by to insult the American POWs being tortured.
2. Someone like Bill Clinton, who is flown to Moscow at the height of the Cold War to receive a peace prize for his anti-war activities.
3. Artists like Neil Young, who is just echoing the feelings of a war torn country.
I rank Neil Young pretty low compared to a celebrity like Jane Fonda who possibly should have been tried as a traitor. Though I find Bill Clintons actions nearly as reprehensible... especially considering the fact that he eventually served as the President!!!
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Originally posted by streakeagle
2. Someone like Bill Clinton, who is flown to Moscow at the height of the Cold War to receive a peace prize for his anti-war activities.
The height of the Cold War?? What made it the HEIGHT of the Cold War? The fact that the USSR had fallen appart by this point and time? The fact that Russia had given up communism for capitalism? Totalitarianism for democracy??
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The height of the Cold War?? What made it the HEIGHT of the Cold War? The fact that the USSR had fallen appart by this point and time? The fact that Russia had given up communism for capitalism? Totalitarianism for democracy??
Stop confusing us with facts.
:) miko
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I think he is referring to Bill's trip to Moscow on December 31, 1969-January 6, 1970.
This wasn't exactly a time of good relations between the US and the USSR.
Never have seen anything about him getting any award though....
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Jane Fonda who possibly should have been tried as a traitor.
Jane Fonda could not have been constitutionally tried as a traitor since treason cannot be commited without a declared state of War which only Congress can make. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
I think he is referring to Bill's trip to Moscow on December 31, 1969-January 6, 1970.
This wasn't exactly a time of good relations between the US and the USSR.
Never have seen anything about him getting any award though....
:eek:
Sorry steakegle, I've never heard anything about this.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
Jane Fonda could not have been constitutionally tried as a traitor since treason cannot be commited without a declared state of War which only Congress can make. ;)
Funny... I mean the law... Isn't it?
BUT... you can be tried for conspiracy to kill nationals of the United States if they can't make a case for treason.
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I can't remember the source for the "award" part of the story... It might even be Rush Limbaugh from many years ago...
But read this if you want to know what kind of person Bill Clinton was...
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a40091.htm
A pretty big snip from that link:
He traveled to Norway and Finland, then disappeared behind the Iron Curtain for a while, emerging in late January or early February 1970. Like his draft and ROTC files in Arkansas, records of this trip seem to have "disappeared." However, enough pieces of the puzzle still exist to establish the overall picture, which isn't pretty.
At a time when no one could go behind the Iron Curtain---let alone to Moscow---without KGB approval, Bill simply got on a train and went. Apparently without so much as a "by your leave" to American authorities, but with an "open arms" invitation and warm welcome from the Soviets, Bill made a pilgrimage to the "worker's paradise" with a significant stop in Scandanavia, where he participated in important, anti-American "peace" conferences.
On December 4, one day after Clinton wrote the letter to Colonel Holmes, American activist leaders met in Hanoi with the enemy's top leaders to plan an international conference/demonstration for January 1970 in Stockholm, Sweden.
Later that month Clinton left London for a "tour" of Scandanavia, his trip apparently coinciding with the conference in Stockholm and activist meetings in Oslo, Norway. During his presidential campaign, Clinton denied the Oslo meetings and said he had only seen Father McSorley there for a few minutes, having run into him "by accident in the train station."
McSorley, however, says that at Clinton's request, Bill and he spent an entire day togethere meeting with activists n Oslo. After visiting the Institute for Peace Studies and activists groups there, Clinton left Oslo.
Traveling to Helsinki, Finland, in late December, he spent Christmas there with a friend. In Helsinki he boarded a train for Moscow by way of Leningrad. Clinton's version of his trip to Scandinavia, Russia and Czechoslovakia is that he was just a member of a group of students taking an educational trip. The facts say otherwise. Except for his KGB escort, Clinton traveled alone. Dee Dee Myers, spokeswoman for the Clinton campaign and later Clinton's White House Press Secretary, was quoted in The Washington Times as stating that Clinton "rode alone from Helsinki, Finland, to Moscow."
Clinton arrived in Moscow on New Year's Eve and was in town seven days. What he did in Moscow is difficult to establish. After a week in Moscow, Clinton journeyed to Prague, Czechoslovakia, a center for important meetings between communist leaders (including Viet Cong/NVA) and American sympathizers. It was in Prague after meeting with Viet Cong leaders that Tom Hayden (Jane Fonda's husband of that era) raised his arms, fists clenched, and shouted, "I am Viet Cong---we are all Viet Cong!"
Little is known about what Clinton did during his stay in Prague except that he stayed at the home of one Bedrich Kopold, identified by the Czech Federal Security and Intelligence Service as a communist official and an agent of the Czech equivalent of the KGB. Comrade Kopold was also the father of Jan Kopold, one of Clinton's friends at Oxford.
After forty days, Clinton emerged from behind the Iron Curtain and returned to London.
In happily joining with his Soviet and communist Vietnamese friends in a massive anti-American propaganda effort, one which strengthened the enemy's resolve while weakening American resolve, Bill Clinton was clearly giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war. This is still the definition of treason.
I feel quite comfortable calling the 1968-1970 period the "height of the Cold War", though I would also consider the Cuban Missile crisis and the Reagan era to rank about equal.
Bill Clinton had no business being President of the United States. He was (is?) as far left as Oral Roberts, Pat Buchanan and the other fundamentalists are far right.
I never much cared about voting. I am fairly sure that my vote doesn't count. But from the time Bill Clinton got elected, I haven't missed a single election, local or national. Of course in this last election, one vote meant a whole lot here in FL :D Only I didn't vote Republican or Democratic. I don't think either party has the best interests of the people in mind. In fact, I suspect both parties only work to maintain their power rather than actually accomplish anything. But I will do everything in my power to prevent someone like Bill Clinton getting elected again. Of course what can you really do? By the 2nd election, everyone knew or should have known about all of his problems and history. But people vote based on their economic status rather than integrity. "Hmmm... economy is good and the press likes him, must be a good President that made it that way, guess I'll vote for him again."
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They knew what he was the first time. And you will never see a Vietnam vet in the white house. To many baby killer movies.
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At a time when no one could go behind the Iron Curtain---let alone to Moscow---without KGB approval, Bill simply got on a train and went. Apparently without so much as a "by your leave" to American authorities, but with an "open arms" invitation and warm welcome from the Soviets, Bill made a pilgrimage to the "worker's paradise" with a significant stop in Scandanavia, where he participated in important, anti-American "peace" conferences.
Another interesting view on life in USSR. Maybe every Western tourist must have go to a local KGB office for an approval before buying a tour to Moscow?
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It is also my recollection that it was quite difficult for an American to get an Entry Visa to the Soviet Union at that time.
Boroda, do you have access to any statistics on Visas granted to US citizens in the 1966-1972 tune frame or thereabouts?
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Little is known about what Clinton did during his stay in Prague except that he stayed at the home of one Bedrich Kopold, identified by the Czech Federal Security and Intelligence Service as a communist official and an agent of the Czech equivalent of the KGB. Comrade Kopold was also the father of Jan Kopold, one of Clinton's friends at Oxford.
After forty days, Clinton emerged from behind the Iron Curtain and returned to London.
Translation............Clinto n met a guy in college who offered to let him stay at his house while traveling in Europe. Sheeesh!
Then he [low scary voice] Emerged from the Iron curtain[/low scary voice] hehe.
Traveling in Eastern Europe was not as restricted from some European countries as it was from here. It was even open in Canada during that time, as Canada and the USSR were trading partners in wheat and other farm products.
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Originally posted by Toad
It is also my recollection that it was quite difficult for an American to get an Entry Visa to the Soviet Union at that time.
Boroda, do you have access to any statistics on Visas granted to US citizens in the 1966-1972 tune frame or thereabouts?
Cant's speak about that time, but in my childhood years (late 70s - early 80s) there were many Western (i mean from capitalist countries) tourists in Leningrad and Moscow. When i was an exchange student in US in 1989 my host's father said he went on a bus tour to Moscow in mid-60s, when he served in West Germany, it was pretty easy and such tours were popular among US military personell.
Iron Curtain really existed for Soviet citizens, but Western tourists were always wecome because of ideological reasons (people who saw life here should never trust standard Western stereotypes), and because of valuable foreign currency they brought.
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"but Western tourists were always wecome because of ideological reasons"
I'm not sure this was true in the '60's and very early '70's.
I've been looking for data on Visas from that period for a long time.. never have found anything.
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Interesting question.
But a US Army soldier going on a bus-tour to USSR on a vacation around 1963-65 is an nice example ;)
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I don't have numbers or a reference to back it up, but I say without fear of being wrong, there were almost none if any tourists at all from the US in the USSR in that time frame. The few who may have been there certainly did not attend high level meetings with North Vietnamese and Soviet leaders to determine what could be done to win the war in Vietnam against the US.
Because of the issues in that time frame, having a friend from a Communist country was practically a crime. Even in the 1990s, as a member of a special submarine crew with sensitive clearances, I was not allowed to even speak with average citizens from a very long list of "threat countries". If such a person even said "hi" to me, I would have had to report it immediately to my ship's security officer so that the NIS could start a formal investigation of that individual to ascertain whether or not they were a spy.
Looking back on past events without understanding the conditions that existed at that time does not provide an accurate perspective. The Soviet Union and its satellites were very much our enemy and our two governments behaved as such. During Vietnam, as in Korea, the cold war was on the brink of going hot. American citizens did not go on vacations there on a whim like they do now. It generally took government approval of both the US and USSR for an American to go to the USSR. Bill Clinton's casual access to the Soviet Union in this time frame is as suspicious as any American visiting the USSR embassy in Mexico. If Bill had nothing to hide, why does he both lie and refuse to comment on the events that took place in that time frame?
If you don't think Bill is a habitual liar or you are willing to admit that but it doesn't bother you in the least, I am just wasting my time typing all this anyway. I can't win an argument with someone that doesn't believe that honesty and integrity are important leadership qualities or who choose to believe the viewpoint of someone who couldn't tell the truth if their life depended on it.
I don't think Bill was too much worse about honesty than the majority of other Presidents. But he was so blatantly obvious that he felt he was above even trying to appear to be a decent person. On top of that, unlike any other President, his beliefs and goals were diametrically opposed to ones this country was founded on. How does an immoral dishonest Communist coward get elected President of the United States?
Kennedy had his problems with women and organized crime, but with a little help from the press, he at least maintained an image worthy of someone with the title President of the United States. More importantly, he had shed blood defending the country from its worst enemies and died proudly serving it. His actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis should make anyone who voted for him feel proud.
When Nixon got caught lying, he didn't continue lying to the public. He did the honorable thing and resigned. Aside from Watergate, Nixon's performance as President was exemplary. No one dealt better with the Soviet Union or China. His strategy in Vietnam was outstanding, but domestic political conditions strongly influenced by the types of groups Bill supported, forced him to leave without finishing the job.
What is Bill Clinton's legacy? Can anybody name one thing he did as President that will help this country over the long run? All I will ever remember about his years is how terrible it was to be in the Navy under Bill, how he was above the law when it comes to making false testimony in a federal trial, how anyone who could witness against him died, and that his taste in women was absolutely pathetic. (If someone is going to abuse their power as President to cheat on their wife, they should at least do as well as Kennedy :D)
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I have never said anything in defence of clinton. But, come on. Tell the truth. If you had to sleep with hillary, wouldnt you fool around.
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But, if you, as President of the United States or even Governor of Arkansas, could choose to fool around with anybody you want, would you choose Paula or Monica? If you are going to risk getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, shouldn't the cookie at least be a hot fresh one that tastes good too? Bill even managed to screw up committing adultery. Totally incompetent. :D
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Originally posted by streakeagle
But, if you, as President of the United States or even Governor of Arkansas, could choose to fool around with anybody you want, would you choose Paula or Monica? If you are going to risk getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, shouldn't the cookie at least be a hot fresh one that tastes good too? Bill even managed to screw up committing adultery. Totally incompetent. :D
Then he spent $50 million lying about something that 1/2 the country didn't care about, only to admit to everything the day before he left office. Yeah that's who I want to support!
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I always had a feeling Clinton was a sleeper for the KGB. Yet, the russian training was faulty, and just as he was supposed to be activated to perform his mole duties, he was distracted by an ugly fat intern who kept a dress in her closet unwashed cause she wanted something to remember him (or perhaps ebay).
Clinton is a lying PoS. As a military person I am extremely glad he left. Too bad I felt the need to get out before his term was up.
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If I recall correctly, one guy just out of the USMC (1 month) got into Russia in October 1959 with no problems - a visa given in under 48 hours (hey not bad for 1959!). I only remember the Marine cos he became famous later on for renouncing his US citizenship, oh, and doing some impossible shooting in Dallas with a dodgy Italian bolt action.
On January 4, 1960, he was issued a Soviet internal passport, citing his citizenship as "stateless." It was valid for one year. He was given a one-time grant of 5000 old rubles ($500) to settle his hotel bill and purchase a train ticket for Minsk. There would also be a monthly subsidy of 70 new rubles ($70) from the Soviet Red Cross.
Hey sounds like the feelthy commies were really evil to US citizens back then.
But that was 1960: Here's a quick web trawl's revalations from the late 60s
http://library.fandm.edu/archives/FreySovietUnion.html
From
http://www.yaf.com/rebels2.shtml (http://www.yaf.com/rebels2.shtml)
While the election was a national focal point for YAF in 1968, it was by no means the organization's only major project. Stopping IBM's trade with Communist countries developed into a major campaign. YAF learned that Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria had purchased IBM's 1400 series data processing system, and it was only a matter of time before the system would be sold to the Soviet Union. YAF decided action must be taken, and YAF chapters across the country joined the "Stop IBM" campaign. The campaign included informing IBM employees, customers, shareholders, and the public of IBM's Communist connection.
And
In the fall of 1975, YAF launched a major campaign under the banner of "The Struggle for Human Rights." The campaign focused attention on the plight of Soviet dissidents and the repression behind the Iron Curtain. YAF also focused its fire once again on IBM, which was negotiating to sell a major computer system to Intourist, the Soviet travel agency and alleged KGB front. The campaign against IBM was successful, while of course the struggle for human rights continues today.
Uhoh! Last one to set fire to their IBM-infested PC (or Mac) is a communist sympathizer! :)
Or from
http://www.ams.org/notices/199906/mem-segal.pdf (http://www.ams.org/notices/199906/mem-segal.pdf)
On a more personal note, I remember with nostalgic amusement my arrival, along with Irving and at least another one hundred or so members of the AMS [I think this is American Mathematics Society - but not sure], at Shmeretvyo Airport in Moscow in 1966. In those days one did not learn the name of one’s hotel assignment until arrival at the airport. Our group found itself lined up in front of a small table, staffed by two Intourist employees with a smattering of English and armed with a ledger book in which was inscribed each of our groups’ names, in Cyrillic—and I suspect not even in that alphabet’s order. The procedure was that the first person in line pronounced a name and then a search through the list was conducted, attempting to find a reasonable match. It was obvious after the first two or three such searches that the process would take all night. Rising above the growing din of complaints was Irving’s voice, coming from far back in the queue as he approached the table, protesting something like “NO, NO, NO!! This will never do!” Irving firmly commandeered the book, began at the top of the list, and called out the name of the first person on the list, then the second, and so on. The Intourist employees were startled and, I think, uncertain as to whether to be angry or simply amazed. They apparently had never seen such a performance nor imagined such a procedure. Irving was in charge, and the sense of gratitude among the group was palpable. He was not able to save us from a six-hour wait in our hotel’s lobby for room assignments, but I know he saved us an equal amount of time at the airport.
So a pain in the ass, maybe, but not impossible.
Or
From
http://www.dinersclubnewsroom.com/images/photos/50thAnniversaryGuide.pdf (http://www.dinersclubnewsroom.com/images/photos/50thAnniversaryGuide.pdf)
1969 Establishments in Russia and Sri Lanka become agencies for Diners Club.
Intourist, a Soviet travel organization, agrees to accept the Diners Club card for hotels, restaurants, theater tickets,car rentals and other travel expenditures in Moscow and Leningrad.
So thaaaat's what they mean when they say someone's "a card-carrying communist"! :D
Sounds to me like there was a coupla tourist visas knocking about - well, at least Diner's Club thought there was enough business to set up shop....
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When Nixon got caught lying, he didn't continue lying to the public. He did the honorable thing and resigned.
Streak! LOL I take back my nomination of mrfish as wit of the month....this is too funny!
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Yeah, I know, oversimplification on Nixon, but like I said earlier, they are all liars... Clinton faced the same problems as Nixon and chose to face impeachment rather than fess up to the crime and step down when the evidence was every bit as good as the Watergate tapes. Of course the way our system works, the dems outnumbered the republicans, so he was innoncent of wrongdoing. Can I lie in court, then have my friends vote on whether I should be punished? I wish one day someone would give Bill what he has coming to him, but some people in this country are above reproach no matter what they say or do and Bill has proven to be one of them. Did any other President's steal stuff from the White House or vandalize it when they left? He is in my opinion the worst man to ever hold the office, which is pretty bad considering some of the fruit loops that have been elected.
I have yet to see even one person defend Bill in any thread by citing even one good thing that was done during his administration that he was personally responsible for. The majority of supportive statements seem to be along the lines of explaining why his actions were not criminal or incompetent. Whereas the obviously "criminal" Nixon did a lot of good things for this country's national security both as Vice President and President. His weakness was being arrogant enough to believe he could store incriminating tapes for posterity's sake without getting caught. For the most part, Nixon's only real crime per the tapes was proving he had knowledge of the illegal activities of his supporters. Regardless of anyone elses personal opinion of Nixon, I still consider him one of the best Presidents we ever had and as honorable as a man can be and still be called a politician.
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Well I got this from an older CNN report regarding the August 98 attacks upon suspected terrorist camps:
Gingrich went so far as to dismiss the suggestions of a diversion as "sick." "I don't think people should think about that at all," Gingrich said. "This is real."
Sen. Helms (R-N.C.), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, echoed that opinion, saying the attacks "were clearly designed to strike at the heart of a terrorist network that has the blood of American citizens on its hands, and which was planning further attacks on U.S. nationals."
"Terrorists around the world will realize that America's differences end at the water's edge, and that the United States' political leadership always has, and always will stand united in the face of international terrorism," Helms said in a written statement.
And Sen. Hatch (R-Utah), in one of the strongest statements of support for Clinton, said, "I don't think he could have waited any longer ... and frankly I commend him for doing it."
Yet people on this board continue to assert that those attacks were just to "wag the dog" and divert attention from Clinton's legal problems. Lets not rewrite history with opinion here.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The height of the Cold War?? What made it the HEIGHT of the Cold War? The fact that the USSR had fallen appart by this point and time? The fact that Russia had given up communism for capitalism? Totalitarianism for democracy??
It happened back in the 70's you doofus lol :D
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Originally posted by Tumor
It happened back in the 70's you doofus lol :D
It is true...I am a doofus. I thought he was referring to the trip Bill took while he was prez.