Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: LePaul on January 31, 2002, 11:32:15 AM
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A co-worker sent me to the Dell Outlet to check out the pricing on refurbished systems. I'm amazed how inexpensive some really nice systems are.
I know "refurbished" is generally a scary word. I bought my Handspring Visor Deluxe from Handspring as a "refurbished" unit. Its awesome. And for $99 (versus 199) I can see if the PDA craze is for me (yes yes, it is. 6.5 mb of 8mb loaded with games and stupid Star Trek Trivia and eGuides!).
I spoke to someone at Dell and they pointed out most of the refurbished systems are for a small issue, or even just a return.
Still, as I glance at their website...I see a system like...
Dell Dimension 4300
P4 1.8ghz
256mb ram
80gb IDE HDD
nVidia 64mb Geoforce2 MX with tv out
modem
network card
etc etc
$800
Or another Dell Dimension 4300
P4 1.6ghz
256 mb ram
40gb hdd
64mb nVidia GeoForce2 MX w/ TV
modem
nic
DVD
$764
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Anyone gone the Dell route?
I'd much rather have an Athlon based system, but for the money, I could have one of these next week :)
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almost our entire office is dell refurbs.
make sure you get some sort of support/warranty with it. You;ll need it anytime you want to upgrade or add or change something. Just in case there is a bug or problem etc etc.
The only downside to dells are the proprietary parts. Make sure, when you get the one you want, deck it out NOW and not later. It'll make it easier for ya. RAM , Video, etc etc.
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Good points
The only thing I can think I'd want to change would be the Video Card at some point. But right now, at 14 FPS, any of these Dell systems for well under $999 sound awesome.
I really like the Alienware systems. But 2x the money.
The Dells we had here didnt strike me as being too proprietary....at least versus crap systems like Compaq.
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I have a Dell and I didn't have any problems upgrading memory, video, and sound.
ra
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for the money, you can't go wrong with one of those Dells
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They go quick, have you noticed?
As soon as some are listed (there was a nice P4 1900mhz in there, and when my screen refreshed, it was gone), they go quick. Some ugly Celeron system has been there all day :D
My work wants one, and gave me a $750 budget. Should be able to get at least a P4 1.4ghz with that from what Im seeing.
My thought was find one with a 16mb video card but fast cpu and just stick my Voodoo 5500 in there. Then I recalled how you guys make me drool with those FPS rates in the nVidias.
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Be very careful: Those Dells are probably using the i845 chipset and SDRAM. Those systems are cheap, but perform badly. (You get what you pay for.) In addition, the video card they are bundled with is either a TNT2 M64, or those systems you mention use a GF 2 Mx 200, which is another terrible performer.
Tom's hardware just did a review of the SDRAM i845 boards. Looking at the benchmarks you can see just how bad their performance is. Tom's Hardware is at http://www.tomshardware.com .
Edit: Here's the direct link to the article - http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q1/020130/index.html
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I have a Dell 4100, and I love it for two reasons: it works, and it's warrantied.
My 3dmark scores are consistently higher than comparable system, and I never have to screw with anything to get it to work.
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Originally posted by bloom25
Be very careful: Those Dells are probably using the i845 chipset and SDRAM. Those systems are cheap, but perform badly. (You get what you pay for.) In addition, the video card they are bundled with is either a TNT2 M64, or those systems you mention use a GF 2 Mx 200, which is another terrible performer.
Tom's hardware just did a review of the SDRAM i845 boards. Looking at the benchmarks you can see just how bad their performance is. Tom's Hardware is at http://www.tomshardware.com .
Edit: Here's the direct link to the article - http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q1/020130/index.html
I read the article, and do not see where they really come out against the board/chipsets at all. If anything, they explained how and why such a chipset would be popular...SDRAM is plentiful and inexpensive.
For me, I could swing an $800 system like the Dells on that Factory page. Sure, spend more and I could have a killer system. But we're talking Saturns versus Cadillacs. And right now, at 12 FPS, that Saturn seems mighty tempting.
Whatcha willing to build me for $800
:D
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They don't say anything bad about the boards, because they don't have to. The performance hit speaks for itself... If you compare those benchmark results, which use a 2 Ghz P4, with other reviews you can see just how badly a system using i845 would perform. In Tom's article you don't have a direct reference to compare to, but I suggest you look. Those "savings" from the cheap SDRAM do not result in a "higher bang for the buck" ratio. I do know from memory that a P4 2 Ghz on an i845 board with SDRAM can be outperformed by a 1.5Ghz P4 on a i850 board in many benchmarks. Even though Rambus ram (used on i850) does cost more than SDRAM, the price premium of the 2 Ghz P4 over the 1.5 Ghz processor more than makes up for the difference. I hesitate to mention AMD here because I don't want anyone to think this is an AMD vs Intel issue. ( I also don't have the time right now to look up exact numbers. ;) )
Onto your $800 question: ( ;) )
Can you reuse the monitor, floppy, cd rom drive, case, keyboard, mouse, speakers, cables, etc? You may also be able to reuse your soundcard and possibly the hard drive. If you can reuse some of these components, especially the monitor, I can guarantee that you can build/have built for you a system that could easily outperform an $800 Dell system.
I'm very pressed for time tonight, but I'll write some more later on on this topic. :)
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Hmmmm,
1.7Ghz P4
40GB HD
3 1/2 Floppy
52X CD-Rom
512M 266 DDR Ram
Mid-Tower Case w/300W P4 Power Supply
64MB DDR Gf2 Titanium w/TV Out
10/100 Ethernet NIC
Sound Card
2 additional cooling fans
(NOTE: Motherboard is Intel Northwood ready)
All new, no used stuff.
How's that for $800.00 (U.S.) You still need a monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers, and operating system. Does not include shipping.
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http://www.azzo.com/test2/systems.html
Good value computers.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Hmmmm,
1.7Ghz P4
40GB HD
3 1/2 Floppy
52X CD-Rom
512M 266 DDR Ram
Mid-Tower Case w/300W P4 Power Supply
64MB DDR Gf2 Titanium w/TV Out
10/100 Ethernet NIC
Sound Card
2 additional cooling fans
(NOTE: Motherboard is Intel Northwood ready)
All new, no used stuff.
How's that for $800.00 (U.S.) You still need a monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers, and operating system. Does not include shipping.
You resell PCs? Neato. Anything with an AMD?
I've got all the accessories (oodles, man, oodles...I have multiple web servers and lots of spare parts *just in case*)
Curious what Bloom describes. :D
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damn...go with Skuzzy's ....!! especially if you've got all the accessories.
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I have not brought myself to be able to resell AMD yet. I just build solid hardware and use the best I can get to put it together.
I have not been able to put together an AMD system that I consider stable enough to stand behind. You have to understand what I mean by that. AMD is a fine processor, but the supprt chips for the rest of it are still lacking,..at least using my yardstick they are lacking a bit.
Let's see, the above system has names like ASUS, Intel, IBM, Antec, Crucial, and Hercules stuffed in it.
I approach computers like washing machines. I just want them to work,..no fuss,..no muss. I don't care about bragging rights, I just want them to work and work and work. I like upgradibility too and the above system is pretty upgradeable.
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That computer Skuzzy posted uses the i845D chipset, which is means it uses DDR ram. That system does not suffer the huge performance hit I described earlier. That's definately not a refurb though, since i845D has only been out less than a month. ;)
My opinion on Dell is kind of odd. I wouldn't own one personally, even if you gave it to me. I'm VERY particular about what goes into my system. Performance and quality are the most important things to me. I've built both AMD and Intel systems in the past, both can be made equally stable if you know what you are doing. (I.E. have first-hand experience or help in setting the system up.) I've yet to see a single name-brand PC that meets all of the criteria that I follow when building a system. (I.E. Crucial or other high quality ram, IBM or WD hard drive, Asus, MSI, or Epox motherboard, 300W approved powersupply, etc.)
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Onto the never ending Intel vs AMD debate... ;) :
Fact: Intel based systems, meaning Intel CPU with Intel chipset motherboard, are a little bit easier to setup. This is largely due to the fact that Microsoft in the past has bundled Intel chipset drivers into Windows. VIA did not enjoy this luxury until Windows XP. This means you MUST install the VIA drivers right after Windows. If you don't do this the system will not be 100% stable, and unfortuantely many people forget to do this very simple step when building a system.
Fact: AMD based systems perform better than equally priced Intel based systems. (I.E bang for the buck ratio) There isn't much else to say here. Numerous benchmarking sites are on the web that can prove this. (anandtech, tomshardware, aceshardware, hardocp, etc, etc, etc.)
Fact: AMD systems require top quality motherboards, power supplies, heatsinks, and ram.
Fact: (and an often overlooked one) Both Intel and AMD supporting chipsets have known bugs and limitations. VIA chipsets for both Intel and AMD processors in the past had many minor, and some not-so-minor, issues. Intel chipsets have also had their fair share of bugs. Here's a list of issues with chipsets for both AMD and Intel that I can think of right off-hand: (Note: If you don't know what I mean by southbridge and northbridge, I describe their function in my chipset articles that I posted about a month or two ago.)
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Intel i850: Does not support any other AGP voltage signaling other than 1.5V. Using a 3.3V AGP card will destroy the Northbridge, leaving you with a dead motherboard. This chipset also has a known PCI bus latency issue that Intel lists on the errata sheet. There is no fix, Intel just limits PCI bandwidth to 80- 90 MB/sec to prevent the problem. A side effect of this is reduced hard drive performance.
Intel i845 & possibly i845D: Suffers from both issues listed above for i850.
Intel i820: Anyone who remembers the MTH (memory translater hub) issue with this chipset can also remember just how much this cost Intel to resolve the problem. (They sent Rambus RDRAM to everyone who bought these boards.)
Intel i815: Limited to 512 MB of RAM.
AMD 750 (Irongate): Limited to AGP 1x as the result of a timing issue with nVidia GeForce cards.
AMD 760MPX: (Specifically the 766 southbridge) Possible USB 1.1 issues, although this hasn't been confirmed as this chipset is brand new. (This is a new chipset supporting Dual Athlon XP/MP processors, and not the older 760 chipset.)
VIA: Who doesn't remember the infamous 686B southbridge? The problem is, in fact, the same as the i850 and i845 suffer from. That is a PCI bus issue that caused possible data corruption if too much bandwidth was used. VIA issued a patch that corrected the problem, and that patch was later incorporated into the newer 4 in 1 drivers. There is also a 3rd party patch that changes PCI bus timings to try to resolve some lingering latency issues that result in popping and crackling sound from Soundblaster Live series soundcards.
VIA KT133A and previous chipsets: It's very difficult to get AGP 4x working correctly on some motherboards using these chipsets.
Nvidia nForce 420: Very picky on the quality of ram used.
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Skuzzy, I'd like to know specifically what chipsets you've used on your AMD systems? I've never had any problems with the AMD systems I've built once they've been completed to my satisfaction. Have you tried the VIA KT266a and nVidia nForce yet? I've had very good luck with both of these, specifically on the Asus A7V266-E and MSI K7N420-PRO respectively.
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I have not tried any nForce based motherboards yet. Don't get me wrong bloom,..I tried to explain how picky I am. For internal use I do not mind AMD,..but if I have to stand behind it, I will use Intel, simply because someday, that system I sold will have to have the operating system reinstalled, and the user will forget to load the drivers or have lost the drivers.
The only real issue I have had, that I could not get around, were random core dumps when running Linux on the AMD boards I have tried (ASUS, and Abit). I forget the model numbers or chipsets. Admittedly, I have not tried any of the newer AMD/chipset products, as it gets pretty expensive to have these things setting around with nothing to do, but run MS stuff.
As the systems I sell must be prepared to run any UNIX or MS variant, I have to keep products I know work in all those environments. I sell quite a few servers,..more than personal systems actually and they are all running some form of UNIX.
I am like you bloom. I would not buy an OEM computer for nothing, including a boat anchor (they put too much plastic in em for that :)). I insist on high quality parts, like you and by the time you rip the garbage out of the OEM computer and replace them with high quality parts, you end up spending more than starting from scratch. And you and I know what happens when you go the cheap route (going the cheap route means a heavy investment in Tylenol/Advil, so any savings would be lost :)).
Oh, the i845D, yes it does require a 1.5V AGP card, but it will not blow up the Northbridge, as would the i850 or i845. But I am only aware of one video card on the market that is not keyed correctly, so this is a minor nit. The correction for this is done externally however, and not in the chipset itself. Good motherboards use the fix correctly. The bus latency on the i845D appears to have been corrected as well.
But you are quite correct, none of the chip makers are perfect. They all have warts.
Oh, I don't actually use that computer I posted. He just asked what he could get for 800 bucks, so I let him know. I have built some of those for clients and they are really stable.
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Oh choices, choices!
I'd really like to get into an Athlon, after so much Intel vs AMD and reading how much better the AMD is vs them, that's really what I'd like to have for a system.
Money has been stuffed into savings in the meantime :)
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I forgot to mention one thing: There are no Linux drivers for the nForce chipset yet. :(
Actually there are a lot of new chipsets due for release for the Athlon processors that I'd like to test:
VIA KT333
SiS 745
AMD 760 MP and 760 MPX (who can resist DUAL Athlons :) )
nForce 415 (no integrated video, but still dual channel DDR ram)
Ali Magik 1 "c" stepping
As for the drivers thing Skuzzy, you are right there, but fortunately Microsoft has started bundling drivers for both the AMD 760 series and the VIA series boards with Windows XP.