Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: touchy on January 31, 2002, 11:53:14 AM
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A few days ago someone posted a message about the p38k, I think it was. There was only one prototype ever made. Not being much of a WWII aviation buff I was wondering what other super prototypes are out there that you'd love to try even if they never made it into production during the war. Any information about them would also be appreciated. Personally I'd like to see some competition for the me262, the gloster meteor perhaps? I believe these made it into service.
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I want a cloaking device like in the Philadelphia Experiment for my C47....mmhhaaaaa
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The german Gotha 229. Search for it in Yahoo. Incredible concept.
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mmmm gotha 229 mmmmmm
(http://www.luft46.com/mrart/mr229-3.jpg)
f.
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hehehe Tac, good choice :)
I have it (only one page, not much info about this incredible bird) in my book about LW planes. Top Speed 607 Mph at 39,370 feet , initial climb rate 4,330 feet/minute, cealing, 52,493 feet (pretty exact numbers in the book), range on internal fuel 1,180 miles, with DT's, 1,970 miles.
Weight Empty but equiped, 10,141lb, max weight, 19,841lb.
Armemnt, 4xMk103 or Mk108 30mm cannons + 2x1000kg (2,250lbs) bombs. That gives it more bombs then the B26.
It was allso capeble of outturning most other fighters.
Another plane that would be nice, saw service but never action, might only have been service with test squadrons though, is the Do335.
Check LW "X" PLanes for more nice things :)
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I believe a few 335's did make it to action..Dont remember what it's stats wre except they were uber..
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B-42 Mixmaster
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b4/b4-2.htm
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Cooool SirLoin, if you find more information about it, please let me know, one of my favorite birds!
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Northrop was ahead of Gothz with the flying wing concept by years.
(http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/xp-71-2.jpg)
Whitworth of the UK too:
(http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/aw-52.jpg)
GO-229 vs P-79 and AW-52 which are escorting B-49's? :)
Westy
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Doubt they had the performance at the end of the war that the GO229 did though ;)
Do you have any specs for them?
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For starters the Allies weren't in the desperate situation the Germans or Japanses found themselves in so starting in 1944 development and production needs were being cut to the bone as the development of these planes did not have the same urgency that the Axis were faced with.
In all honesty the Gotha never performed as good as you imply it did either. It flew what, once? And those performance specs you give are theoretical and pure guess-timates because the plane never got to 600+mph, it never flew to 50k feet nor did it carry any armament.
I'll see if I can find the specs anyway for the sake of comparison.
Westy
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The following aircraft all flew in prototype form before the end of the war:
Germany:
Arado Ar234C
Henschel Hs132
Messerschmitt Me263
Messerschmitt Me264
Japan:
Kyushu J7W1 Shinden
Nakajima Kikka
Nakajima G8N Renzan (Rita)
UK:
DeHaviland Hornet
DeHaviland Vampire
Hawker Fury
US:
P-38K
P-80A Shooting Star
VVS:
Yak-3 with the VK-107 engine
_____________________________ ___________________
The following aircraft all flew in limited production numbers, many not seeing combat:
Germany:
Dornier Do335 Pfiel
Heinkel He 162
Messerschmitt Me163
Japan:
Mitsubishi A7M2 Reppu (Sam)
UK:
Avro Lincoln MkI
Gloster Meteor F.MkIII
Supermarine Spitfire F.21
US:
F7F Tigercat
F8F Bearcat
P-51H Mustang
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P-80A was in mass production during the war too. The first one was accepted in Feb. 45.
Four YP-80A were in service in Europe at the end of 1944. Two of them crashed and the the other two flew operational sorties in the Med., althought they didn't encounter the enemy.
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Funkedup,
What I read said that those were both prototypes.
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Karnak I think you posted while I was editing. The prototypes (YP-80A) flew missions in-theater during winter 44-45, and the production versions (P-80A) were coming off the line from Feb. 45 onward. They had similar reliability issues to the German jets but USAAF was not so desperate as the Luftwaffe. The reliable prop planes were killing the enemy just fine, so they didn't risk pilots' lives by issuing the jets widely.
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Karnak,
What source do you have for the Kikka? the one i have says that none of the 2 prototypes that were in production at the end of the war were flown, if you have more info i'd be appreciative. I'm stuck at work until tomorrow AM, so i don't have my book handy, but i'd be glad to post it when i get home.
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Hamish,
Here is the link I grabbed info from: http://www.pelzigplatz.f2s.com/hikoki_files/kikka.html
I'm certainly no expert on the Kikka.
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Cool link, thanks Karnak :)
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Allied fighters met some Do335s (prolly from Erprobungskommando - test squadrons) in the last days of the war, but I've never heard anything about actual combat.
Pierre Clostermann once chased a Do335 above Germany. The Pfeil hit wep (thick black smoke poured from the exhausts) and easily outran the Tempests.
Do335 would be nice, but I would prefer a Meteor...much more were in service (even if they mostly chased V1s), and it would be an interesting match against Me262.
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Well Selys, the Meteor Mk III saw service (on teh other side of teh channel too) but never action, wether this is a "legal" plane IMO I can't really answer, Mk I is definatly a legal plane but would anyone want one? Specs I have for it sayd bout 410Mph level flight.
Do335 would be great to have IMO, VERY nice plane I THINK and the pilots who flew it were surprised with the manuvearbility.
if the Do335 or Meteor MkIII is added then add the other one too IMO.
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I would like to see the Do 335 (just a very cool, very fast plane) and the F8F Bearcat (second ride of the Blue Angels aerobatics team)
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The XB-38 was a modification project, done by Lockheed Vega, on the 9th Boeing B-17E (S/N 41-2401) built. Vega proposed, in March 1942, to convert a B-17 airframe by replacing the standard Wright R-1820 radial engines with Allison V-1710 'Vee' engines. In July, the Air Corps approved the project (AC-28120). In addition to the new engines, the aircraft featured a larger fuel capacity and full-feathering propellers.
The XB-38 project was initiated primarily to try to improve on the overall performance of the basic B-17 and to provide an alternate version in case the Wright R-1820 radial engine became scarce. The Vega Airplane Division of Lockheed received the B-17E and intended to use it as a pattern source for an all new design. Serial number 42-73515 was reserved for this design, but because of the urgency of the project, the B-17E was used and the new design was never completed.
The modifications on the -E model took less than a year to complete and the aircraft made its first flight on 19 May 1943. Initial performance tests showed the aircraft to be slightly faster than the production B-17E. The XB-38 was grounded after a few flights because of a serious problem with leaking engine exhaust manifold joints. After this problem was fixed, the test program continued until 16 June 1943 and the XB-38's ninth test flight. On this flight, the right inboard engine (#3) caught fire in flight. The test pilots were unable to put the fire out and bailed out. The resulting crash destroyed the XB-38. All future plans for the XB-38 were dropped because the V-1710 engines were needed for higher priority projects.
TYPE
XB-38
Number Built/Converted
1 (cv)
Remarks
B-17E with V-1710-89 engines
Notes:
Serial number: 41-2401 (42-73515 reserved but not used)
First flight was on 19 May 1943
Aircraft destroyed in a crash on 16 June 1943
SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 103 ft. 11 in.
Length: 74 ft. 0 in.
Height: 19 ft. 2 in.
Weight: 64,000 lbs. (max. gross weight)
Armament: One .30-cal. and eight .50-cal. machine guns plus 6,000 pounds of bombs.
Engines: Four Allison V-1710-89 engines of 1,425 hp. each at 25,000 ft.
Crew: 9 (max. as designed) Tests usually conducted two just a pilot and copilot.
PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 327 mph. at 25,000 ft.
Cruising speed: 226 mph
Range: 1,900 miles with 6,000 lbs. of bombs (estimated); 3,600 max. ferry range
Service Ceiling: 36,600 ft.
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Repost from way back:
616 Sqn Meteors F. Mk. I flew CAP and fought the V-1 over Britain from July 1944. Remember that the Luftwaffe was still periodically sending aircraft (e.g. Ar 234) over Britain until April 1945. From January 1945 a Meteor F. Mk. III detachment from 616 Sqn was deployed to Belgium with the 2nd TAF, flying combat patrols, where they were joined in March by Meteors F. Mk. III of 504 Sqn. The Luftwaffe chose not to challenge the Meteors over the Reich, so they ended up doing ground attack missions against the remaining pockets of German resistance. So the Meteor was most definitely a WWII combat aircraft, albeit a rare one.
PS The 420 mph version was the Welland engined Mk. I. The Mk. III that saw combat had Derwent engines and could do 490-500 mph. They had a slightly better thrust to weight ratio than the Me 262, a much better wingloading, and four Hispanos. Bring it on Jetwaffles. :)
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Cc funked, thanks for the info :)
Like I said, Mk I sucks bad.
Mk III turned better then the 262, zoomed a bit better too I guess thanks to the better thrust to weight ratio.
Try and catch us though, you'll never make it, nor will you surive the power of our Mk108's!
On another hand, it's allied so it'll do 700Mph while climbing with 3k per minute :D