Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kweassa on February 01, 2002, 12:38:37 AM
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Some sources say 200, others say 150..
AH G-2 has 150..
which is right?
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200 rounds is the correct number for G-1 and G-2 (same as F-4). The bigger main wheels introduced in G-4 and G-3 made necessary the adoption of smaller ammo boxes with 150 rounds.
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I am not debating the answer..but the reason seems suspect. The wheels of the 109 retract away from the fuselage where the ammo for the engine mounted 20mm is stored.. How could the size of them main wheels effect the capacity of the cannon magazine? Ill have to look at a few cut aways when I get home..
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True, the wheels pull up away from the fuselage, can it be some kind of new mechanism for the wheels that makes them take more place?
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Ammunition box of the engine mounted cannon of the Bf 109G was in the wing.
gripen
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um...
I don't think I've heard a answer yet. :)
What interests me is the part that goes:
"200 rounds is the correct number for G-1 and G-2 (same as F-4)"
..
In the case of that other game :rolleyes: 'IL-2', the G-2 and F-2 has
200 rounds of 20mm in the game.
Which is right? 150 or 200??
Both the F-4 and G-2 in AH have 150 rounds...
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my cut away of a G14 shows the engine mounted cannon magazine to be right behind the engine above the cannon.
My cut away of the G10 shows the same thing.
I dont think the ammo was stored in the wings.
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The ammo was stored in a box placed in the left wingroot. This from the original weapon operating instruction manual (1942). I'm pretty sure that someone scanned it and posted it somewhere in the net.
Other documents from 1942/43/44 also say 200 rounds.
A data sheet about F-4 (November 1941, IIRC) also indicates 200 "schuss" (rounds) for MG 151/20.
Hope this helps.
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(http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/wg6mg.gif)
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I have also seen 200 rounds as the ammo load for Bf109 20mm engine cannon often.
HTC can we have our 200 rounds please?
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hmmm
Do you have a simular diagram for a G series?
Cause that must be the difference. The drum on the later Gs probably only holds 150. It is right behind the engine in the diagrams I have.
Planes of Fame says that the earlier Fs with the 15mm mg151/15 had 200 rounds. They say the F4 with 151/20 droped to 150 rounds...
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Pongo,
Well, also I have diagrams which show magazine in the fuselage behind engine (like one in the "Wings of the Luftwaffe") and other similar BS. But I have also seen original manual and even checked real thing; magazine is in the wing just like Porta's picture shows.
Anyway I don't know for sure it's capacity; should 140-150 in the G-6.
gripen
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The diagram shows at least a Bf109G6, those are Mg131 cowl guns.
The other magazine location you reffer to Pongo is where the Mk108 30mm ammo storage is. It was moved into the fuselage.
All 20mm Bf109 engine cannon were fed from that wing box.
It should have 200 rounds instead of 150.
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Soooo... does this mean we'll be getting 50 more rounds of 20mms in F-4s and G-2s anytime sooon ???
;)
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Make HTC aware of this issue and let's behave, so they don't get annoyed :)
That should help
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Cool
Lets see the diagram.
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Here you go. This is applicable for every Bf109 armed with the MK108 30mm cannon.
The 30mm magazine is part "d".
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/wg6mk.gif)
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but the tempest also had 200 rounds instead of 150 per gun, but considoring how powerful those cannons are, an extra 200 rounds in total wouldn't matter.
can't remember the url of that site i found that info on.
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I think that is pretty good evidence for putting 50 more 20mm rounds in our 109s... good work troops!
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Folks, i dunno were you get ur data from, but everything i read about the engine mounted canons of the Bf 109 is the following.
series,mounted gun,ammo load
F-3,MG151/15, 200 rounds
F-4,MG151/20, 150 rounds
G-series, MG151/20, 150 rounds
G-series, MK108, 60 rounds
you must excatly note which MG151 was installed, when the small caliber the 15mm was installed the gun had 200 rounds, if it was the 20mm it had only 150 rounds
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Original german documents show 200 rounds for:
F-2 (Mg 151/15)
F-4 (MG 151/20)
G-1 (as above)
G-2 (as above)
Sorry, but I haven't scanner to post them. Those are from NASM and PRO.
BTW, several docs about U4 kits (MK 108) show a standard ammo load of 65 rounds (G-14/U4, G-14/U4/AS and, IIRC, the manual for K-4 also say 65 rounds).
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So, the debate goes on :)
I'm having some suspicious feeling that somehow, HTC staff went through this same process and decided to stick with 150 instead of 200 :D.. but still, if there is any chance that(and looking at the discussions so far.. I think there's a good chance) 200 rounds is really the right one.. I hope HTC would reconsider.
If it isn't possible to scan those documents, it'd help to know where we can find them, Porta :) Thx for the good info so far
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Hmm, from memory, one in the NASM microfilm archives about early G series was in reel 2466. About F-4, you cand find one sheet in W. Randiger's book "Bf 109 Development, Testing, Production".
If I have time, I'll post more references.
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Originally posted by Naudet
Folks, i dunno were you get ur data from, but everything i read about the engine mounted canons of the Bf 109 is the following.
yet you dont state your sources...:)
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Porta says that G-2 had 200 rounds for 20mm fuselage cannon according to official documents. Could it be that it was different for G-2 and G-6 ? :confused:
I found this from a translated official finnish G-6 manual.... only 120-140 rounds, maybe the absolute maximum in G-6 is 150 rounds?
(http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/G6_ammo.gif)
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AFAIK the reduction in ammo capacity was linked to the increase in wheel size of the later Gustav. The Ammo box in the left wing had to be reduced in size to make space for the wheel well.
Moreover it was pretty usual to reduce ammo load below the absolute maximum to decrease jammimg risks. As an example the wing mounted MG151 jammed very easily when fed with 125rds links compared to to 115rds links so 100-115rds links were usual.
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Originally posted by BlauK
Porta says that G-2 had 200 rounds for 20mm fuselage cannon according to official documents. Could it be that it was different for G-2 and G-6 ? :confused:
I found this from a translated official finnish G-6 manual.... only 120-140 rounds, maybe the absolute maximum in G-6 is 150 rounds?
Interesting page, thanks for posting it. A couple of points struck me:
1) The ammo stats for the MG 151 show that the Finns didn't get the M-Geschoss.
2) What kind of installation was there for the wing guns? The standard German job coiled the belt into a flat pan which contained somewhere around 130 rounds, IIRC.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
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Yes they used a kind of drum normaly fitted with 125rds, it was originaly 135, but it proved too unrealiable. AFAIK there was a problem with belt not properly disintegrating and jamming the weapon in the process. Great care had to be taken when replenishing the drum, moreover under cold condition problems occured frequently.
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Originally posted by Tony Williams
1) The ammo stats for the MG 151 show that the Finns didn't get the M-Geschoss.
2) What kind of installation was there for the wing guns? The standard German job coiled the belt into a flat pan which contained somewhere around 130 rounds, IIRC.
1)
Hmm... just an uneducated question. Wouldn't the 4. and 5. Expl.r. (explosive round) be the same as M-Geschoss? They are listed to include tracers, but on the other hand they do not have any incendiary properties like 2,3,6 and 7. M-Geschoss never had tracers?
2)
Some G-6s were /R6 but most had their wing cannons removed for manuvering reasons. Only a few pilots especially asked if they could keep them.. and liked the firepower too :) I think they were standard German stuff.
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Originally posted by BlauK
Hmm... just an uneducated question. Wouldn't the 4. and 5. Expl.r. (explosive round) be the same as M-Geschoss? They are listed to include tracers, but on the other hand they do not have any incendiary properties like 2,3,6 and 7. M-Geschoss never had tracers?
20mm M-Geschoss weighed 92g and (in the MG 151) had a muzzle velocity of around 800 m/s.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
NOTE NEW ADDRESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
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Originally posted by Tony Williams
20mm M-Geschoss weighed 92g and (in the MG 151) had a muzzle velocity of around 800 m/s.
CC.. thanks.
Maybe the Germans didnt provide such ammo to others. On the other hand that document is a post war 109G-6 manual. Could it be that M-geschoss was not available anymore at that time... or maybe the original German manual was written before M-geschoss was used??
Just guesses....
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Originally posted by BlauK
CC.. thanks.
Maybe the Germans didnt provide such ammo to others. On the other hand that document is a post war 109G-6 manual. Could it be that M-geschoss was not available anymore at that time... or maybe the original German manual was written before M-geschoss was used??
Just guesses....
M-Geschoss was first issued in 1940, in the MG-FFM, so it was available from the start in the MG 151.
I'm not sure where the Finns would have got their ammo from. M-Geschoss did require a special manufacturing process, quite different from conventional shells, so it would have been difficult for another manufacturer to pick up without a lot of investment in new equipment and techniques.
I know that the French manufactured the MG 151 postwar (they used it until the 1970s) and it is still made in South Africa (Armscor GA-1). However, M-Geschoss ammo is not now made for it.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
NOTE NEW ADDRESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
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I don't understand..
Does this mean that the armament of 200 shells of 20mm
was in Finnish 109s only, and German 109s used 150?
Or the armament varied in option ranging from 130~200, and
though max limit is 200, pilots would load it with only 150?
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No... I gathered from this thread that every G-2 had 200 rounds and G-6 had only 150 rounds.
FAF G-6 instructions were lower than the max of 150 likely just to avoid jamming the ammo box too full.
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In IL2 it is weird, the 109 F2 20mm are far less powerfull the then ones in the G6, bug? or could it be that maybe the shells for the F2 were smaller (not the rounds, just the shells)?
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The F2 is equiped with the MG151 in 15mm not a 20mm version
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Sort of explains it.
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.. so , to make the final testament on this thread.
Can we all say the dreaded word.. (shudders.. ooooh)?
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can we simply, officialy, firmly, strictly
but politely say the 109G-2 20mms ammo count is... * Ba-Bum *
WRONG?
ps) and if it is WRONG... will it be FIXED??
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I thought this deserves a punt
;)
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Yep knock it down to 115 rounds please.
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Just noticed that the Finnish manual says a 500Kg bomb, AH have that or is it a 500lbs one?
// fats
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"Some G-6s were /R6 but most had their wing cannons removed for manuvering reasons. Only a few pilots especially asked if they could keep them.. and liked the firepower too I think they were standard German stuff."- BlauK
Actually Kössi Karhila said that the Rücksatse 6 DIDN´T effect manouvering! He shot down a P-51 in a 109G6/R6 after several 360 deg circles. The Mustang was about to stall and had to loosen his turn so the 109 could make the shot. The R6 was a bit slower and didn´t climb as well as the regular 109´s.
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/faf.html
julle, CO =Flak Panzer Oilers=
(http://www.1strof.com/lapwin/misc/warroom_logo2.gif)
http://www.eztargets.com
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jule, I read a similar story about the wing guns. He said that they did effect turn performance, but to a much lesser degree than popular belief.
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I'm curious, did they change the size of the ammo boxes when they went from the 151/15 to the 151/20?
If not, I don't see how they could fit 200 20mm rounds into the same box as 200 15mm rounds...
If they did increase the size of the ammo boxes...
-SW
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The case size did not change so it was not a problem at all fitting them in the same space. The F-2/F-4/Gustavs use the same ammo box of 200 rounds of either 15mm or 20mm.
But it seems usual not to have uses the full complement of ammunition, maybe due to increased jamming, i'm still investigating this point.
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How did they fit 200 20mm rounds into the same area as 200 15mm rounds? Unless the box was too big for 200 15mm rounds to begin with.
-SW
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Hi Akswulfe,
>How did they fit 200 20mm rounds into the same area as 200 15mm rounds?
The cartridge diameter was 25 mm for both the 20 mm and the 15 mm calibre. The 15 mm cartridge had a pronounced bottle shape since the projectile was much smaller than the 20 mm shell, but the maximum dimensions were determined by the much larger casing.
The RLM data sheets give exactly the same length for a belt of 100 rounds for the MG151 and the MG151/20 (3.25 m).
To sum it up, both with 15 mm and 20 mm projectiles, the 25 mm casing you'd get a 32.5 mm belt spacing :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Ah, I didn't know they used the same size cartridge.
Thanks for clearing that up Hohun.
-SW
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Ahem.
150 and 200 rounds ARE BOTH CORRECT.
200 rounds was the maximum.
150 rounds was usual.
Why?
You got 200 rounds if you had FULL BELT, ammo box full and the belt loaded to the last round.
But that caused some jamming problems.
So it was usual to NOT load the belt completely full, from the ammo box to the cannon. Using "only" 150 rounds the jamming problems were much smaller.
Hence - both 150 and 200 are correct.
Source:
MG151/20 loadout diagram.
Don't have it at hand at work though. Ifyou want to see it I'll try to remember sending it.
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Grendel could you send me a copy of this document, i have various documents/manual pertaining to the MG151 but none clearly specifies that the ammo load was reduced to prevent jamming.
TIA