Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: capt. apathy on February 01, 2002, 07:21:43 AM
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So apparently in his new presidential order GWB now classifies a fetus as a person and initialed to medical care benefits (wtg GW).
I love the quote I heard on the news from an 'abortion services provider' when asked why she was against it. "If a fetus is a person, then what we are doing is murder."
Wow, I guess I was wrong, maybe they are capable of understanding that it is indeed murder.
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I find it sad how some people try to justify their actions by attaching other names to their victims. "We are not ending a life, we are removing a fetus".
On a sidenote, my personal views on abortion changed 180 degrees after my son was born. I wonder if its just me, but my world changed when I watched him transform from "bumpy unknown thingy inside wife's belly" to "tiny person screaming at the top of his lungs wanting food and safety".
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Ya, nothing like having a kid of your own (and everything that goes along with it) to put things in perspective.
I don't believe anyone can put their hand on a woman’s stomach, feel a baby kick. And think, "hey, the 'fetus' is kicking".
I know of no one who considers a baby they plan to carry to term a fetus. They’re only called fetuses when the plan is to kill them because they are inconvenient.
You ever go with a pregnant woman to the Dr. for an ultra-sound? Even Dr.'s say, "would you like to see your baby?” never have heard them call it a fetus either, unless they plan to 'remove' the child.
They know it's a baby, we know it's a baby. It’s all just verbal gymnastics to justify a horrible act.
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yep, this one and the one about the fetus having rights passed earlier are steps in the RIGHT direction.
Funny to hear the "Pro Murder er CHoice" complaining about it :)
WTG Bush!
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i find it funny that the very people who always cry 'quality of life' are complaining about added health benifits for unborn children, they should be all for this improvement to 'quality of life'.
btw, watch closely 'cause you wont see me say it often- WTG GW!
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I don't believe anyone can put their hand on a woman’s stomach, feel a baby kick. And think, "hey, the 'fetus' is kicking".
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ROFL
You sure make a good point. I know I would have *killed* anyone who had said that to me or the wife.
Btw, on a related issue. Is the Chinese abortion policy correctly described in Tom Clancy's The bear and the dragon? Because if it is, then I think we need to outlaw China or something.
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The shrub and I agree on something. :D
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Originally posted by weazel
The shrub and I agree on something. :D
OMG!! Another sign of the Apocalypse! :)
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(Ripsnort begins another inventory of food/water/fuel for generator)
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Originally posted by weazel
The shrub and I agree on something. :D
that's it I quit being a doper!!!! I'm halucinating wildly!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :D
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Yeah this is great news!
But why stop at something that isn't born yet? Let's go after masterbaters and people who use condoms. They waste sperm so isn't that the same?
Wait what about girls who give head? Maybe we should pass a law that says they have to swallow so the sperm has a chance to some how become a fetus.
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But why stop at something that isn't born yet? Let's go after masterbaters and people who use condoms. They waste sperm so isn't that the same?
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great!
If a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate!
:D
as for the felatio comment, actually, I think it IS illegal in Florida. ;)
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nobody sugested that anybody be required to become pregnant. just that you not kill others to simplify your life.
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When does life start?
Seems to me you people are already telling us when you think life begins.
So how many of you Pro-lifers have adopted kids? How many of you don't eat meat?
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Originally posted by Mighty1
So how many of you Pro-lifers have adopted kids? How many of you don't eat meat?
great points :rolleyes:
I guess u r an abortion expert? any experience with the lovely procedure?
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As long as apathy isnt apathetic about the increase in welfare and crime that will accompany the banning of abortion..
Wonder how jr would like a president passing a non-faith based initiative? "
George moves his war on terrorism into the bible thumpers true battle ground of choice. Every womans body. The Taliban would be proud.
Apperantly you can get your head big enough from your war based support that the seperation of church and state can seem to be a inconvienent notion.
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Legislating morality is dangerous. Who's morality do we go with? I wonder what would happen if only women were allowed to vote on the abortion rights issue?
Informed people can and do disagree on when life begins. The government needs to stay the hell out of this issue.
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Originally posted by Pongo
As long as apathy isnt apathetic about the increase in welfare and crime that will accompany the banning of abortion..
Wonder how jr would like a president passing a non-faith based initiative? "
George moves his war on terrorism into the bible thumpers true battle ground of choice. Every womans body. The Taliban would be proud.
Apperantly you can get your head big enough from your war based support that the seperation of church and state can seem to be a inconvienent notion.
Ummm he didn't outlaw abortion. All they did is make a classificatoin so that poor pregnant women can get prenatal medical treatment. Hopefuly this is the first step in changing the hearts and minds of the American people on this "issue" which is the way he thinks this issue needs to be handled (he's been saying this for years before he ran for president)
oh yeah a big F__K you for compairing him to the taliban...:mad:
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if the "mother" is too stupid to realize that the person who is riding around in her stomach for nine months, oh yeah - and didn't have a choice in being put there - deserves the same rights as she, someone better point it out to her...
face the facts, abortion is used primarily as the "oops" birth control .. Period !!
its just the another reflection of the " if feels good, do it " society in which we now live
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What the hell does eating meat have to do with it?
And no, I haven't adopted any kids, however I do take care of my own. I was an 18 yr. old senior in highschool when my girlfriend (now my wife) became pregnant.
I am pro-choice and the choices where clear,
1. Get married and raise the child together.
2. She raises the child and I pay support and am an active partner in raising my child.
3. If she wasn't ready to take the responsibility of a child she could have the child and I’d raise it myself, she could be as involved or not as she chose.
I made many sacrifices to provide for my children and my life was much more difficult than it could have been if I’d taken the easy way out.
Often I worked 7 days a week 12 hours a day, several times I’d work those hours with nothing to eat for several days (except occasionally someone at work would realize I’m not eating and sharing their lunch, thanks again man) to make sure there was enough food so my kids never missed a meal.
I went for an 8-year stretch where the only shoes I owned where work boots.
And I never once regretted the decision to not murder my child.
Most of the problems of this world would be solved if people would just step up to the responsibilities life presents them with instead of looking for someone else to take the fall for them.
How anybody could let a baby take the responsibility for their actions is beyond me.
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I've just gotta say that now that I've watched my children grow up...that I could never make that decision to end a pregnancy. I do think there are instances in which it's warranted, but it shouldn't be used for birth control. Kudos to GW for providing pregnant women in need with health care.
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capt. apathy
"And no, I haven't adopted any kids, however I do take care of my own. I was an 18 yr. old senior in highschool when my girlfriend (now my wife) became pregnant."
I was a freshman in college and girlfriend of 1.5 years (now my wife of over 23 years) was a senior in our High School. Had the same situation, made the same choice(s).
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As long as apathy isnt apathetic about the increase in welfare and crime that will accompany the banning of abortion..
I don't think welfare and crime would increase, if people actually took responsibility for their actions, kids would see the role models and be more responsible in turn.
The lack of responsibility for the consequences of your actions IMO is the leading cause of crime and lifetime welfare recipients.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Wait what about girls who give head? Maybe we should pass a law that says they have to swallow so the sperm has a chance to some how become a fetus.
What the hell were you doing in biology class? Because obviously you weren't paying attention to the teacher.
Biology 101
In order for sperm to become a baby it has to enter the female body at a certain location (not the mouth). Contrary to popular belief swallowing sperm will not get you pregnant.
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What the hell were you doing in biology class? Because obviously you weren't paying attention to the teacher. What the
Biology 101
In order for sperm to become a baby it has to enter the female body at a certain location (not the mouth). Contrary to popular belief swallowing sperm will not get you pregnant.
Shhhh... right-to-lifers don't hold with all that new-fangled scientific larnin' - they reckon the big G created them in one actual day out of mud and a man'd be a fool and communist to disagree with them. :D
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Yeah, all we need is more low income kids coming out of the ghetto to later get their gun toting licenses and gang banger attitudes with their criminal rapsheet.
75% of DC's convincted criminals comes from a low income family with multiple children and recieving welfare. They may or may not have had a dad.
Not all life is precious, especially when they're out to end yours.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Yeah, all we need is more low income kids coming out of the ghetto to later get their gun toting licenses and gang banger attitudes with their criminal rapsheet.
75% of DC's convincted criminals comes from a low income family with multiple children and recieving welfare. They may or may not have had a dad.
Not all life is precious, especially when they're out to end yours.
-SW
Yeah you're right. Why give them a chance, you know once a bad apple always a bad apple. Mom's a potato and dad's a crack head, there's no way they can turn out right so let's just off em before they get a chance to breath. :rolleyes: As a matter of fact that sounds so good why don't we go ahead and kill the ones that already came out too, I mean gosh we're only trying to save them from a hard life.
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This has nothing to do with legislating morality, it's just allowing a mother to CHOOSE whether or not the baby the carries is an unborn human who qualifies for medical support. 'Choice' is what you 'pro choicers' want, isn't it? Many mothers will still choose to have an abortion, so you should be happy.
ra
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What the hell were you doing in biology class? Because obviously you weren't paying attention to the teacher.
Biology 101
In order for sperm to become a baby it has to enter the female body at a certain location (not the mouth). Contrary to popular belief swallowing sperm will not get you pregnant.
Well, by killing one little swimming spermskie, you've eradicated one potential human.
Much the same way a potential human has been eradicated when a woman has a spontaneous abortion (and these, my friends, are not rare).
When two cells become four, and then stop developing - there goes another potential human.
A li'l lump of human DNA is indeed human - but it is not a human. It is important to be able to distinguish between the potential and the actual - in this case between that which is human, and that which is a human.
Docs will have a hard time determining when the switch takes place, and I guess that's where the controversy starts - although many religious people make an argument of faith. One that is valid I suppose. But faith is a personal thing and should not be imposed on others.
A zygote or fetus is as much as human being as a strand of hair - it is indeed human, but it is not a human. The difference between the two lies in the potential - but it does not take much to prove that the potential is not the actual.
I have the potential of winning one million dollar in the next two days. It probably won't materialize. On the other hand, a zygote, given proper nutrition through its host organism, has a higher chance of becoming a human being than I have of being the first human owning a caravan in the middle of the sun.
And this is interesting. Now we're down to probability. Should we judge based on probability?
Of course, granting a parasite organism personhood raises a lot of legal questions as well.
It's no secret that I am pro choice. Neither is it a secret that I want the right to own a gun, and thus be able to better defend myself, leaving my fate up to myself in case the toejame hits the fan.
Am also very much against the huge welfare socialistic redistribution of wealth thing we have going here - along with the "everyone is equal" roadkille. We're not equal, and it is a folly to pretend we are. So I want a minimalistic state.
On the other hand, I want the 'outside' variables to be the same for everyone - equal access to universities and medical facilities, with the former of course being based on a competitive system. It's like giving two students a pen, a paper, and a test, and deciding who to hire based on the test - I *do* want *both* to have a pen and a paper.
So, despite me being pro choice, I think it's hard to label me a leftist. Or a liberal.
Actually, I *AM* a liberal - a European liberal. 'Liberal' in the US means quite the opposite of what it does in Europe.
In addition, I think it would be nice if people using 'liberal' as a bad word (be they US conservatives or European socialists) should go to http://www.dict.org and enter the word 'liberal'. That word has been bastardized enormously by a quite ethnocentric group in North America :D.
Us Europeans will be ethnocentric too - we are just waiting to be powerful enough to be just that :D.
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Maybe the problem we're having with a lot of the kids recently is the have been raised be a generation that hasn't been required to bear responsibility for their actions.
Most of the troubled kids I meet have parents who also don't take responsibility.
Parents who take responsibility for their own actions generally raise kids who also take responsibility.
Since I was in 7th grade it was drummed into my head not to forget that you have the 'right to choose' not to be responsible for your actions (it's much worse now that my kids are in school).
You have the right to choose, you can choose to sleep with someone or not.
You can choose to protect yourself (from pregnancy as well as disease)
You can choose to go to school or not
You have many choices in life, but once you make a choice take responsibility for your choice and the consequences.
The choice to have sex is an adult choice; adult choices come with adult consequences.
Not ready for the consequences? Don’t make that choice.
People are more in need of backbone and determination than they are in an 'easy' way out.
Btw, when they tell you about the risks of pregnancy to your health and all their other medical 'facts' why do they always fail to mention the women I meet, some who are in their late 40's and still crying about the baby they killed, and how it all happened so fast? How they went to planed parenthood to investigate the 'option' and the staff just started talking to them as if abortion was the only logical option and before they had time to think it was a done deal.
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Ok, If having an abortion means "sorry, I "choose" not to have a baby/fetus" , I say any paid for by tax dollars requires the "mother " to also have a hysterectomy.
Problem solved. We only pay for one. Later, they can adopt. Another problem solved.
Not talking about an abortion done to save the mothers life, as low a percentage as I'm sure those are, I'm talking about the birth control ones.
Just saying you take the option away or put a very heavy price on it, maybe everyone would keep their pants on alittle longer...
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This has always looked like a bunch of people, who don't have the responsibility(men) trying to dictate to the people that do (woman) how they should handle it. For example. 30 percent of black men deal with an unwonted pregnancy. 100 percent of black woman deal with it. The percentage of men who take a powder, varies depending on what group you are looking at. But there is always a percentage that split. Until we develop the back bone to force men to face their responsibility (Prison time comes to mind), we haven't got toejam to say about what happens. It is up to the lady to do what she feels she must.
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Eagler I never said I was an expert at abortion. I have never known anyone who had an abortion either.
My point is that some of these people who say you need to have the kid and raise it yourself or put it up for adoption don't even bother to adopt a kid themselfs because it would be to much of a bother. They have no problem telling someone else how to run their life but they wouldn't dream of helping out the poor kids who's parents can't support them. If you truely believed all that garbage about abortions being murder then everyone of you should be waiting in line to adopt a kid. that will never happen because most of you will come up with some BS exscuse of why you can't. No No it's better to populate the world with kids that have no future than have an abortion.
The comment about eating meat is for those of you who think killing is wrong but have no problem killing a cow for a cheeseburger. Killing is killing whether it's a human or a cow or a mouse it's still taking a life for your own comfort.
Despite my desire for women to have a choice if my daughter came home pregnant I would still try to talk her into keeping the kid. I just don't think I have the right to tell her what she HAS to do.
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I never said they were all bad Udie.
However, statistics have gone a long way to prove that the majority of crimes comes from low income families with multiple children that live off of welfare. They learn the crime game young, you know, steal this or that to help the family out or so you can get that new bike that your mom/dad can't buy. The parents themselves are irresponsible, that's why they're in the situation (for the most part). You expect them to raise good children when the only reason they have them is to recieve more food stamps and/or welfare?
I never said they all are, but the majority of crimes don't come from people who are better off... now do they?
-SW
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I never said they all are, but the majority of crimes don't come from people who are better off... now do they?
-SW
No. But the crimes are vastly more costly. Look at enron.
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Thats a good point somebody made back there..
Do lesbian feminist abortion types types say "Oh I just felt the parasitic fetal zygote oranism kick". How nice............
But stranglly Im not for making abortion illegal. It makes me very uncomfortable but it should stay though hopefully not happen often.
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I never said they all are, but the majority of crimes don't come from people who are better off... now do they?
-SW
this may of course be because the vast majority of people who make the laws are better off too.... :D
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Excuse me, but the fetus that gets removed during abortion can not kick or do much anything yet because it's basically just a lump of protein. There are certain limits on how old the pregnancy can be when you perform the abortion.
I have a son who gave us some trouble during the first third of the pregnancy. We were running to the hospital because my wife had spontanious bleeding.. From the ultrasounds we could see the fetus is alive and well. However even that being my own child, I could not see him as a person yet. More like a mass of protein with some resemblance of human parts, head, hands, legs and eyes which were not properly developed yet. Did you know that a fish fetus and a human fetus look almost exactly the same during the first third of the pregnancy? They both have tails and everything..
In many cases the abortion is a blessing to both child and the mother. The mother may have been raped and got pregnant in the progress.. Do you think the mother wants to have the baby?
The mother may be 17 and having unfinished school.. You think the baby and the mother would have a good future if she gave birth then? Forcing an unwanted child in the world does nobody any good. It probably just guarantees the kid a miserable life in some foster home or institution - or a very poor home.
The mother may have become pregnant despite the use of protection, you think it's better to have that unplanned child instead of a quick chemical abortion (the remorse pill) within the next week?
The fetus may be found genetically defective during pregnancy, would you want your wife to bear and give birth to a child with two heads or no brain at all? The most horrible thing is that often the ones who do so, get emotionally attached to the brainless living dead and nurture the horribly disabled child untill the unevitable bitter end. Both the child and the parents suffer.
Overpopulation is the biggest single problem of the planet at the moment. The catholic religion is not helping that much by banning all contraceptives - as if we were still living in 10 a.d. when the christians felt the need to be populated as much as possible. Now the religious groups want to ban the abortions, some of which were a direct cause of their own ban of contraceptives. Many kids feel so ashamed about the whole issue that they prefer to have sex unprotected instead of telling their family doctor or going to the shop to buy some.
The fact is that sexually mature humans tend to have sex without caring about the consequences. If the foolishness results in an unwanted pregnancy, it's by all means better to stop the pregnancy on its path instead of bringing yet another problem child to the world. A child that is not needed or wanted on this planet.
Those women who are crying after their aborted babies are probably ones that couldn't get any children after that.. Abortion includes a risk of losing your fertility. It also shows how hard it is for any woman to abort her baby. It's a very tough decision and the women won't go through it unless it's absolutely necessary.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
Excuse me, but the fetus that gets removed during abortion can not kick or do much anything yet because it's basically just a lump of protein. There are certain limits on how old the pregnancy can be when you perform the abortion.
You're wrong. I've seen it with my own eyes and heard testemony before congress to the contrary. A human embryo or fetus is a HUMAN BEING not just a warm slimey diddly stain.
I have a son who gave us some trouble during the first third of the pregnancy. We were running to the hospital because my wife had spontanious bleeding.. From the ultrasounds we could see the fetus is alive and well. However even that being my own child, I could not see him as a person yet. More like a mass of protein with some resemblance of human parts, head, hands, legs and eyes which were not properly developed yet. Did you know that a fish fetus and a human fetus look almost exactly the same during the first third of the pregnancy? They both have tails and everything..
yeah except one is a freaking human being and one is a fish. Good to know you had your son :) I hope he is healthy and happy in life :)
In many cases the abortion is a blessing to both child and the mother. The mother may have been raped and got pregnant in the progress.. Do you think the mother wants to have the baby?
I fail to see how killing something is a blessing to it. Kinda like you're depressed over something, here let me shoot you in the head then you won't be depressed anymore. Ouch I cut my finger, here use this cleaver and cut you're arm off it will stop your finger from bleeding.
The mother may be 17 and having unfinished school.. You think the baby and the mother would have a good future if she gave birth then? Forcing an unwanted child in the world does nobody any good. It probably just guarantees the kid a miserable life in some foster home or institution - or a very poor home.
Yeah you're right the kid would turn out bad because of it too, let's suck its brains out before it can get out of the womb.
The mother may have become pregnant despite the use of protection, you think it's better to have that unplanned child instead of a quick chemical abortion (the remorse pill) within the next week?
While not as bad as partial birth abortions, I still think it's an immoral thing to do. Ofcourse your morals are diferent than mine and so on and so on.
The fetus may be found genetically defective during pregnancy, would you want your wife to bear and give birth to a child with two heads or no brain at all? The most horrible thing is that often the ones who do so, get emotionally attached to the brainless living dead and nurture the horribly disabled child untill the unevitable bitter end. Both the child and the parents suffer.
No brains? ok you got me there, I've seen the result of a child born with only 1/3 the normal brain mass. I don't think there was any consiousness there at all. But there are plenty of other birth defects that cause un needed abortions. Search for old posts by me about my 22 year old step brother born with spinalbifida so bad his spine was exposed and he wasn't supposed to live through the night, or 6 months or 6 years. He's almost 23 :)
Overpopulation is the biggest single problem of the planet at the moment. The catholic religion is not helping that much by banning all contraceptives - as if we were still living in 10 a.d. when the christians felt the need to be populated as much as possible. Now the religious groups want to ban the abortions, some of which were a direct cause of their own ban of contraceptives. Many kids feel so ashamed about the whole issue that they prefer to have sex unprotected instead of telling their family doctor or going to the shop to buy some.
Pretty weak argument for murder. Hell why stop at unborn humans, why not just go out and kill anybody over 75. They're not productive anymore and most are sick, yeah we'll help them by killing them.
The fact is that sexually mature humans tend to have sex without caring about the consequences. If the foolishness results in an unwanted pregnancy, it's by all means better to stop the pregnancy on its path instead of bringing yet another problem child to the world. A child that is not needed or wanted on this planet.
Yeah so let's murder it.
Those women who are crying after their aborted babies are probably ones that couldn't get any children after that.. Abortion includes a risk of losing your fertility. It also shows how hard it is for any woman to abort her baby. It's a very tough decision and the women won't go through it unless it's absolutely necessary.
Dude you are so wrong. A good friend of my mom's killed herself after she had her 1st child. Well mom told me it wasn't her first, she aborted the first. Once she had the 2nd she realised what she had done to the first and couldn't live with herself, so now she's dead and her daughter grew up with out a mother or brother.
You get an abortion they aught to rip the plumbing out with the DEAD BABY[/i][/u] so that you can never do that again.
Off to work :) What a way to start a saturday with abortion talk :D
disclaimer: if it sounds like I'm yelling at you I'm not, just get pretty emotional over this topic sometimes, er.. ok any topic ;)
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I never said they were all bad Udie.
However, statistics have gone a long way to prove that the majority of crimes comes from low income families with multiple children that live off of welfare. They learn the crime game young, you know, steal this or that to help the family out or so you can get that new bike that your mom/dad can't buy. The parents themselves are irresponsible, that's why they're in the situation (for the most part). You expect them to raise good children when the only reason they have them is to recieve more food stamps and/or welfare?
I never said they all are, but the majority of crimes don't come from people who are better off... now do they?
-SW
I still fail to see how that justifies killing them in the womb before they ever have a chance to be good or bad. Why not, instead of sending rice over to Somalia or Afganistan to feed the starving, just drop daisy cutters on em to end their missery?
has in mind with this new "classification"
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We've had this discussion three times before.
In them, I've presented my thoughts as sensible as possible. Those in the opposite camp have presented their ideas.
We've tried to convince each other, but in the end, it is a futile discussion: those who are against abortion will remain so even in the face of lots of evidence. Similarly, those who are pro abortion will refuse to budge even if a zygote started yelling through the womb of a woman "I think, therefore I am!".
This is of course when we talk about the radicals on both ends of the spectrum.
I enjoy these discussions in general. When the arguments are emotive in nature, I tend to sort of drop out.
Let's not beat a dead horse. Let's beat the Bishrook - want an argument for abortion? There you have it.