Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on February 02, 2001, 09:29:00 PM
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(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tour12FvF.gif)
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God Almighty perk the damnedable thing already!
LMAO!
Hehehehe
Yeager
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26000 kills
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
And it wont be perked...woof...either HTC is blind, or the quakeheads flying that thing really add a lot of $ to AH, and perking it wont be good for their income.
and the niki 15000 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[Edit]
Total kills in that list: 125701
Total kills of the F4U1-C: 20.7% aprox
Total Kills of the N1K2: 12% aprox
So ONE THIRD of the kills in the Main arena is done by either of this two of planes. ONE THIRD.
ONE FIFTH BY BLUE TURBOLASER BIRD. ONE FIFHT.
I think the numbers sing by themselfs. The arena is full of that blue cancer.
He who has eyes, is free to see. IMO this trespasses the unnaceptable.
[Flame suit on.]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-02-2001).]
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hs been ruining the game since day one.
perk it or fix it or delete it. one way or the other admit you screwed the pooch on this one htc
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Perk the damn things! How dare those Chog & Niki pilots fly what they want to! It's just criminal!
SOB
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Tour 11: (only 3 weeks)
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tour11FvF.gif)
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Tour 10 (similar lenght to 12):
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tour10FvF.gif)
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Wow.. imagine that.. inspite of the "fact" that EVERYONE was flying F4u-1Cs.. the Spit IX was the only plane to see a real statistical drop in use (compared to tour 10)... maybe the Typhoon too.
Many of the lesser used aircraft enjoyed 100%-800% increase in use.
Maybe everything is being used more?... ALOT more?
AKDejaVu
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Hrm, projecting based on the figures presented and the trends in K/D change, in 3 more tours the A5 will be double the 1C's K/D (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Blah statistics can be made to whatever you want them to mean within reason.
Check the K/D ratio spread, its not that bad.
Nor are these Hogs getting the miracel 5+ kill flights that everyone claims otherwise the k/d ratio would be a lot more than that.
All this indicates is that a LOT of people fly the hawgs or n1kis AND a LOT of people DIE in the hawgs or n1kis.
Maybe these planes are a bit better - but its not by a stunning amount looking at the k/d ratio.
Its been said time and time again, perk it and the hordes of chog/n1ki dweebs will move to the next option (tiffs/spits???). And then there'll be another spike in the stats.
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<oops stoopid double posting IE5>
[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 02-02-2001).]
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You know withy so many newbies flying chogs its amazing it has such a high K/D rate, compare that to the few dedicated and skilled 190 pilots that have simmilar K/D. Whichever way you look at it chog is the easiest killer in the game- to all the chog amazinhunks who say it isnt, why the hell does it get so much use?
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Vulcan,
I have to agree with you! I have mediocre stats compared with some of the really good pilots.
I fly the 51-D so if we used my stats from the same period one could conclude the P-51D should be perked I suppose.
It's not the plane its the Pilot!
(ie. NathBDP in just about any plane against any pilot 1v1 would win!) I Say we PERK NathBDP and forget about stats. Statistical Data is OVERMODELED! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/spoof/stat.jpg)
Thunder
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Actually, it's AMAZING that the CHog Kill/Death is as HIGH as it is.
Rarely is the most popular AC among the highest K/D..it's usually some sort of hard to fly, but capable, AC flown by a group of hard-core experten that isn't that popular overall.
To have a K/D that high with so much of the arena flying it...that really tells you something.
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I don't honestly think the Chog is that much better a "killer" than any other aircraft. What I do believe is that the Chog gets flown alot more than anything else...mostly due to the simple fact that every single night there's such a protracted ad-nauseum conversation and comments ABOUT the oh so glorious Chog that every damn newbie in the arena runs out and fire's one up. Of course.."the path of least resistance" figures in alot too, lots of that going around. I got suckered into that very scenario a couple of months ago when I signed up full time. Thing is, I own every flight-sim present and past and I do consider myself a decent stick and slightly knowledgable (given many years of AW and offluff'n on in WB) of what a good WWII plane vs a WWII mediocre plane is. I took the Chog up and ..well, I still don't think if flies all that much better than the D...and to be honest, given the choices BOTH are pigs to fly in a tight situation. Anyway...my 2 cents is that the Chog reigns queen mostly because of all the attention it gets...supported by the choice of A/C onboard the CV's. Again...my 2 cents, it's just not all that great. Imagine if everyone wasn't constantly blabbing about the Chog in the MA every night....all them 2wk trialers and newbies might just think the yellow nose and D vs C makes the D the prettier one to fly lol
Swamp
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GRUNHERZ said:
- to all the chog amazinhunks who say it isnt, why the hell does it get so much use?
Cuz it's blue and don't smell of rotten cabbage? :-)
How about "advertising makes it happen"?
If people spent as much time squeaking about how "Uber" the C202 is, more people would fly
it to "get an edge".
As it (Chog) IS a good aircraft with guns that support snap shots, the user sees no need to change. Other aircraft could do that too.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
[This message has been edited by M.C.202 (edited 02-03-2001).]
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2 of the top 3 in K/D are LW rides (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Maybe you're right Santa hehe.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Yeah right, say 202 is good and it will get 20% of all kills!!?!? Oh man, face it guys, the CHog is unbalancing the MA!!! And as stated such a high K/D with that broad use is just amazing!!!
I won't argue about Hispano lazers now - just read the numbers! BTW, can someone put those numbers in a graph - maybe THAT would make it easier for the average CHog pilot to understand...
A plane that hardly saw the 200s is dominating the arena of a game that wanted to cover WW2 arial combat as a whole... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Ok, give us some german experimental planes for free as well and we will bring balance back ourselfs... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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~Kirin~
(http://the_kirin.tripod.com/Sig_Ta152f150.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Here's the quote that really nails it:
Torgo said:
Actually, it's AMAZING that the CHog Kill/Death is as HIGH as it is.
Rarely is the most popular AC among the highest K/D..it's usually some sort of hard to fly, but capable, AC flown by a group of
hard-core experten that isn't that popular overall.
To have a K/D that high with so much of the arena flying it...that really tells you something.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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Gregory "Pappy" Boyington never flew a cannon hog. If all you Cannon Hawg pilots think your re-enacting "Baa Baa Black Sheep" you are flying the wrong Hawg.
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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/06212.gif)
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
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The P-40 had a 15:1 kill to death Ratio in China, that is 10 x what the C-Hawg is getting in AH.
I don't think its too much to ask for the P-40B in AH. Also, I don't want them to Perk the C-Hawg, cause then someone would use it as justification to perk the P-40B.
2 X .50 and 4 X .30 calibers of pure death and destruction!
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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/06212.gif)
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 02-03-2001).]
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You guys just dont get what I said, so ill just repeat it. Sorry I tried to present such a difficult concept in a short post, I should have considerd the audience first.
With all the unskilled NEWBIES flying the chog in such huge numbers, its simply amazing that it gets that high K/D vs fighters. Remember this is just vs fighters, so your old chog roadkill excuse of GV killing no longer means anything. And if the chog only gets flown by NEWBIES because they hear the chog horror stories, why do they continue to fly it? Really if its so hard to fly as u chog amazinhunks say, wouldnt the newbies aban it in droves after they found this out????
Understand now, or do I have to post again?
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Was going to make the same point, Grunherz. Thanks for saving me the trouble. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I repeat again...
26000 kills
TWENTY SIX THOUSAND KILLS
Are product of the C-hog in the Main Arena of Aces High. TWENTY SIX THOUSAND.
I could care less the K/D of the frigging UFO. I could care less the Turbolasers, anything.
THe problem is not that it has 1.35 K/D THE FRIGGIN PROBLEM IS THAT OF EACH HUNDRED OF KILLS IN THE MAIN ARENA MORE THAN TWENTY ARE DONE BY A CHOG!!!!!!
I know you Chog drivers are slow to understand, but really one MUST be blind not to see that the damned thing is F**king up the game.
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Just to change the subjest a bit from the CHOG rants, but isn't it strange that the Typhoon is the RAF's best air to air fighter, better even than the Spit? In real life the Tiffie was a failure as a fighter, and only remained in production for it's ground attack abilities.
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Good point, heres why
1. 4 hispano vs 2
2. Wildly overmodeled roll rate (soon to be fixed I hear)
3. Fastest plane at low alt by far
4. Accelerates fast if it has 10ft of alt
5. Very manuverable at speed, tied to incorrect roll rate I guess
5. Turns well too at medium to high speeds
6. Can always run away spit cant
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Grunherz...can you type slower? I don't want to miss one syllable of your infinite wisdom.
On behalf of simpletons everywhere, thank you.
bowser
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Just checked my stats for tour 12
Kills
Chog 16%
TBM 13%
A6M 10%
Seafire 10%
N1K2 8%
Killed by
Chog 44%
N1K2 10%
109F 7%
Shipgun 7%
Seafire 5%
Kills using
La5 74%
F6F 8%
Ostwind 6%
Seafire 5%
109G10 2%
Damm the Chog ! … I’d perk it cos it make me cranky ..hehehe
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I don't think I have ever been in a sim that had a membership so quick to eliminate options...
The 1C is perfect for field suppression, you know, the Osti fest that precedes a field capture. It drops hangars. It will vultch with ammo to spare. Sure its numbers will be high, it does this job better than any other plane. As long as people try to lift off under the "Blue Curtain" Vought engineers smile from beyond.
Those numbers can support whatever cause you wish to champion. Not to say they are useless, but one must know what type of flying generated the numbers, and what control. Without a common control, the test data won't do you much good.
Example:
Take each plane out to furball at sea level. Check stats.
- Take each plane out and ground attack. Check stats.
- Anti-Osti work. Check stats.
You get the idea. Even then, this wouldn't represent truly what the planes do, as you have various levels of competencies amongst the pilots. The point is, it gives you a rough idea how effective a particular plane has been in the arena in a month, but it in no way tells you how or why.
I don't like running into the same aircraft over and over, but I can honestly tell you that I know I am going to survive longer against a cloud of F4U's than Spits or Nikki's, regardless of what I am in.
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Nashwan spake thusly:
Just to change the subjest a bit from the CHOG rants, but isn't it strange that the Typhoon is the RAF's best air to air fighter, better even than the Spit? In real life the Tiffie was a failure as a fighter, and only remained in production for it's ground attack abilities.
Asside from some of the possible flight model issues such as roll, there is a more simple explanation. If most of the ETO combat in WWII was short-ranged and below 10K feet, you bet your bellybutton the Typhoon would have been a great plane. The majority of WWII air combat in the ETO happened at high altitude where the Typhoon doesn't perform well. For the same reason, the P47 is at a much greater disadvantage in AH because it's strength is the high altitude stuff that doesn't happen much in AH. That has more to do with the Typhoon being such a good choice in the arena than any other factor IMHO.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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mmm Tiff has 4 hispanos, but 2/3 the ammo.
whels
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Good point, heres why
1. 4 hispano vs 2
2. Wildly overmodeled roll rate (soon to be fixed I hear)
3. Fastest plane at low alt by far
4. Accelerates fast if it has 10ft of alt
5. Very manuverable at speed, tied to incorrect roll rate I guess
5. Turns well too at medium to high speeds
6. Can always run away spit cant
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Originally posted by RAM:
I could care less the K/D of the frigging UFO. I could care less the Turbolasers, anything.
THe problem is not that it has 1.35 K/D THE FRIGGIN PROBLEM IS THAT OF EACH HUNDRED OF KILLS IN THE MAIN ARENA MORE THAN TWENTY ARE DONE BY A CHOG!!!!!!
It seems like only yesterday that K/D was THE ULTIMATE STAT. Should I go looking for those quotes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It was always true that in fighter V fighter combat the -1c and the -A5 have had nearly identical K/D's. The new stats just make it easier to calculate since one doesn't have to subtract ground vehicles, goons and buffs.
So, now we've had to change the ULTIMATE STAT to "gross percentage of arena kills". If a plane is used too much and kills too often that is bad; very, very bad.
My question now is "What is an acceptable percentage?"
Clearly, our leading game designer has decided that the -1C's 21.6% of the kills listed fighter v fighter for Tour 12 are simply WAY too high.
So what is the maximum acceptable amount for an airplane?
We need to decide now so HTC can start working on an "auto-perker". As a plane's gross % of arena kills rises, a daily "auto-perker" would kick in and slowly raise the "perk price" of flying that aircraft.
This is the perfect way to discourage people from flying the popular planes that they happen to like.
We can force people into the planes that don't get used and that they don't want to fly. In fact, it should be possible (and easy) to make them fly the planes WE want them to fly! Yeah, baby!
Bound to increase the number of newbie members that go ahead and start an account once they finish their free two weeks.
So what IS the maximum acceptable percentage of arena kills that any one plane should be allowed before perking?
Inquiring minds want to know! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-03-2001).]
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I don't see the problem with the F4U-1C
Yes, it's common. So what? There will always be a most common plane which has a dispraportionate amount of use.
If you perk the F4U-1C, then the people flying it will fly something else. If only about 40% of them switch to the N1K2-J (which is quite possible), then THAT will have 1/5 of the kills in the arena.
Will you then have to perk the N1K2-J?
If you do, then those pilots will move to a third plane and you'll end up having to perk that one too. Eventually, you'll be left with the silly predicament of having to perk planes like the 109G2 and Macci 205.
I have yet to see an online flightsim where one plane didn't have a larger amount of use than the others. In AirWarrior, it's the Spitfire 9 (ETO) or F4U-1D (PAC). In AH it's the F4U-1C.
What about bombers? If fighters can be perked because of popularity, then why not bombers? Using the same logic, shouldn't the B-17 be perked?
If you don't like the F4U-1C, develop tactics specifically to defeat it.
The ONE good argument I have seen for perking the F4U-1C is that it messes up the "Perk Point System". However, the problem there is ANY highly popular plane will have the same effect. Therefore the PP system should be re-worked to make this a non-issue.
Just remember--one plane will ALWAYS be used excessively. Perking the F4U-1C won't change that.
J_A_B
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One thing that the hoards of C-Hogs has taught me, how to avoid HO's. Seems that dang near every C-Hog driver will HO you given the chance. Meybe that's why the newbies like it so much, no-skill HO kills are easy in the C-Hog. However, my stats show that since I've resigned myself to the fact that every C-Hog will HO me, I've killed C-Hogs at a rate better than 3 to 1.
It's still an historical abomination IMO.
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Length
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Originally posted by Toad:
It seems like only yesterday that K/D was THE ULTIMATE STAT. Should I go looking for those quotes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Try to do that, because you will fail miserably. I say that the F4U1-C has an incredible K/D given that all the newbies end flying it. I say that I am tired of seeing half the arena in F4Us. Now try to see who does fly the 190A5. Most are already 190 dedicated drivers who learned (just like me) to fly the 190A8 in the previous FM
Just FYI, Toadie, in Tour 1 when I was a LOST dweeb that was crashing the plane one time each three I got 105-125 K/D in the Chog. I was stuck with a yoke with only one button working and --NO-- rudder pedals at all. I had --NO-- Idea of proper ACM, concept of Energy , and all I knew to do was to HO (yes,HO) and to spray and pray. 105-125 Toad. 0.84 K/D. With a FM MUCH harder than the one we have now. With flaps NOT working. 0.84 K/D.
And it was not me. was the friggin plane and its friggin cannons. Put a newbie on a F4U1-C and he will start to rock'n Roll, killing cons with ease. Put him on a Fw190A5 and he will die miserably because he knows nothing but to spray&pray, HO, and pull the stick.
What do I mean?...that the 190A5 has 1.35 K/D but only 1900kills. Few (if any) newbie flies it. Almost all the people who flies 190A5 is because knows AH and knows how to fly it. So the high K/D is expectable.
The F4U1-C is flown by newbies and experts. The experts get 6-7 kills with ease in this monster. Newbies can do 1-2 kills with a lot of ease, because the turbolasers kill with a touch, so the plane is very used by newbies...the K/D is lowered by them, but if you put the core of people flying Fw190A5 as dedicated drivers in a F4U1-C you will see a K/D in excess of 2. With ease.
Moot point anyway. HTC says that perk planes will be introduced to ---avoid arena unballancing planes---. Nothing NOTHING ---NOTHING--- to do with K/Ds alone.
20% of all kills are by Chogs. 1% of all kills are by Fw190A5.
Extract your own conclussions. If ONE plane gets one fifth of all the kills is it unballancing?
If HTC doenst perk it they will be going against their own compromise with perk points, IMO.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-03-2001).]
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i don't mind the c-hog, i hunt them down in my N1K2...haha......but , the c-hog is great for ground attack, i always fly it for jabo's
44MAG
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When I get some time "Rammie" I'll go look up your old K/D arguments.
You still haven't answered the question:
What percent of all arena kills will King Ram allow before he perks a plane?
What is your "max allowable"....Rammie?
Your attempt to divert the argument into "only newbies fly the -1C and it's too easy to get kills in" is just a smokescreen.
That argument certainly hasn't been proven, but assume for a moment it is true. So what if it is a good newbie plane? Should HTC NOT have a plane that a newbie can get kills in pretty easily? Shall we remove ANY plane that is easy for a newbie to get a kill in?
Anyway, answer the question:
What percent of arena kills is too high?
Because as sure as day follows night if you make the -1C inacessible, the Nik will start taking a larger share of the kills. At what level will you give the order "Commence crying!" ?
You and all those like you keep insisting the everyone play your way. First it was the "HO dweeb" threads then it was the "-1C Dweebs" threads that have evolved into "Ban/Perk the -1C."
Maybe everyone DOESN'T want to play your way?
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I don't care what the K/D ratio is or anything else. I'd just like to be able to fight more than 2 plane types for my $30 a month.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 02-03-2001).]
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Downtown said:
> I don't think its too much to ask for the
> P-40B in AH. Also, I don't want them to
> Perk the C-Hawg, cause then someone would
> use it as justification to perk the P-40B.
> 2 X .50 and 4 X .30 calibers of pure death
> and destruction!
Do you want The Pandas or Angels art on your P-40B?
I'm torn between Dick Rossi's or Eric Shillings's aircraft.
I wonder if we will get the "UberPerk" hand built engines that all the AVG birds had?
15 to 20% over "book" hp :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Originally posted by Toad:
Maybe everyone DOESN'T want to play your way?
I hardly believe that people really like to fight the same plane all the time...toadie (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kirin said:
> Yeah right, say 202 is good and it will get
> 20% of all kills!!?!? Oh man, face it guys
>, the CHog is unbalancing the MA!!! And as
> stated such a high K/D with that broad use
> is just amazing!!!
No, I said that if the C.202 got as much press, people would TRY it. Big numbers of
people giving it a TRY.
I then say that the C hog, unlike the C.202, has the guns to support snap kills and HO's.
So many of the people who TRY it due to the squeaking here STAY with it.
> I won't argue about Hispano lazers now -
> just read the numbers!
Cannon vs MGs is the core of this, or are you saying that ALL hog's should be perked?
> .......................BTW, can someone put
> those numbers in a graph - maybe THAT would
> make it easier for the average CHog pilot
> to understand...
Would a pie chart do? :-) We seem to squeaking about how much of a cut we get...
> A plane that hardly saw the 200s is
> dominating the arena of a game that wanted
> to cover WW2 arial combat as a whole...
Are you sure that you want to go into the numbers in use thing? That would favor the Allied aircraft at the expense of Italian, IJN/A, and German aircraft.
> Ok, give us some german experimental planes
> for free as well and we will bring balance
> back ourselfs...
The C-Hog is was not experimental, it was just low production for the U.S. An
experimental would be the XP-51F :-)
First flight Feb. 14, 1944
5,635 lbs dry, 7,265lbs gross
Max 466mph @ 30,000 ft
cruise 380mph @ 25,000
Roll rate of 90deg:
1.6 sec @ 300mph, 2.0sec @360, 2.6sec @ 400
44,000 ft ceiling
7,500 ft per min max climb!!!! (that's what the book said)
The same airframe with a betten engine (the 14SM Merlin) was faster and had a better overall climb.
495mph @22,800ft
time to 20,000ft ....... 3.4 min !!
Now THAT would be a perk :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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As much as I dislike the Hog-C, I don't think it should be perked.
As modelled in AH, the Hog-C is a Marine Corps aircraft. Fine, disable it for carriers and see what happens to its kill percentage next tour.
Now I know Pyro has said that he doesn't like the idea of disabling CV operations for the 1C, so I suppose the question for Pyro is ...
What do you feel more comfortable with? An MA where over 20% of the kills go to a single aircraft? Or an MA where a CV capable aircraft cannot fly from CVs?
HTC is big on game-balance..... here's their chance to prove it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I could care less the K/D of the frigging UFO. I could care less the Turbolasers, anything.
I'm going to remember that statement, RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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20% of all kills are by Chogs. 1% of all kills are by Fw190A5.
Extract your own conclussions.
People don't like Axis?
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Originally posted by Fatty:
I'm going to remember that statement, RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am talking about the perking thing, Fatty. The reason for me wanting the Chog perked is not the turbolaaers or the FM, but the fact that 26000 kills are too many.
Other than that, of course I mind the turbolasers. I mind about them and a LOT. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Come on RAM....what percent of arena kills is "too many"?
Because the day is going to come when an aircraft other than the -1C has "too many".
Come on. Take a stand. State your true belief. Quit hiding.
I hardly believe that people really like to fight the same plane all the time...toadie
I'm sure a diminutive like you needs to use the diminutive to feel equal. Go right ahead.
Seems to me though, that what you can "hardly believe" is that YOU are in the minority.
HO's, F4U-1C's, threats to quit....you're always on the "play my way or else" side.
You have no tolerance for what other people believe or the way they want to play.
As Wardog has pointed out many times, just play the game and adapt to change as necessary.
Almost everyone but you seems to be able to do that.
Be brave, Ram.
What percentage of arena kills is "too many" for any plane?
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Hey toadie, see, I wont say a number, is nothing related to numbers. Is simply that 26000 kills out of 125000 aprox, are done by a single plane.
Hey! why dont you start and say what is for YOU an unballancing plane? what is unballancing for YOU? What is the less limit where you'd say that a single plane is ruining the Main arena? 50%? 75%?
come on toadie...be brave...be brave because you NEVER are...you call people things but you never try to explain your position....
HTC said that they will perk "planes that proved unbalancing for the main arena"
You say that 20% is not enough, is evident, huh?...
Comeon...what's your limit?
Be brave, toad
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-03-2001).]
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I cant help feeling that somethings being overlooked here with regard to the 1C's kills.
AH is about Field captures and demolition of strategic positions IE factorys,city etc.
(Well for some anyway)
THE best attack aircraft is undoubtedly the 1C in my book.
Fly in kill the VH, + AA then what invariably happens VULCH time !
Personally I rarely get involved in the vulches tho and try to use the F4UD just cos i think its harder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This has NOTHING to do with how good the 1c is at ACM its all about going up and down strafing fighters on take off, sure its cannons can be 1 hit wonders and it pisses me off when they hit me especially if i am flying rings around it and get hit with a golden bullet.
Now if people stop lifting from fields being capped by 1C's then i reckon its Kill rate would drop dramatically.
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
As much as I dislike the Hog-C, I don't think it should be perked.
As modelled in AH, the Hog-C is a Marine Corps aircraft. Fine, disable it for carriers and see what happens to its kill percentage next tour.
As I've had to point out about a billion times, Marine Corps CHogs operated off Escort Carriers in the Okinawa Campaign, and in 1944-1945 there were a number of Marine squadrons that solely operated off Carriers.
As far as I know right now, I can't find any evidence of any combat CHog sorties that WEREN'T off Carriers.
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Diminutive Ram,
Here's what you will never understand:
I don't care what anyone else flies; never have, never will. Period.
It's their $30.
Tough concept for you, isn't it?
Nothing is unbalancing for me. Introduce the Me-262, don't perk it; I won't care. I'll still be mainly in the Jug or Mustang. I'm on record as saying the D-9 shouldn't be perked. Bring on Luft-WHA!-ffe F-16's! I still won't care.
Like MOST of the others in this sim, I just play. I don't worry if someone is playing the way I play or not.
I've made this position clear over and over again.
You'll never understand it, little boy.
You are afraid to put a number on your fears, aren't you Ram? Afraid that if you say 10, 15, or 18% a plane you like may eventually reach that number. Then you won't be able to play the way YOU like. Oh dear!
HO's still bother you don't they? LOL. Why won't everyone play the way you want them to Ram?
Chute shooters still bother you don't they? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Why won't everyone play the way you want them to?
Don't they recognize your leadership and brilliance?
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about how the other guy plays.
It's a game.
Be Brave. State a number Ram. One that we can hold you to.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-03-2001).]
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LOL
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Toad(ie)...you know, when I used to take you seriously I was doing a quite serious error (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You are funny (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Toadie:
You are afraid to put a number on your fears, aren't you Ram? Afraid that if you say 10, 15, or 18% a plane you like may eventually reach that number. Then you won't be able to play the way YOU like. Oh dear!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chute shooters still bother you don't they? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Why won't everyone play the way you want them to?
LOL, almost missed this jewel!!! maybe you are referring to the Fw190D9?, toadie?
No, I dont fear it will be very used, first of all because will be difficult to handle, way more than a p51, and secondly because a lot of people hate german iron. The P51D, and La7 will see quite more use than the 190D9. And of course there is the blue Turbolaser Wonder and the Green Japonese UFO...
And regarding the chute killing thing...he he he, I have discovered a very nice use for the 7.92mm MGs in the A5...
Killing Chog and Niki chutes is SOOOO Funny...D
Sorry man, you should know already that I take you as a funny clown...but hey! was a good try!
Keep on trying toadie! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-03-2001).]
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No balls, eh Ram?
Didn't think so.
Ram" "Hey! why dont you start and say what is for YOU an unballancing plane?
I did what you asked. Now you run away.
Ram: "you call people things but you never try to explain your position...."
I've explained my position; many, many times.
Please show me a post where I "call people things".
I doubt you'll find me calling folks "HO dweeb" "C-hog dweeb" or "turbolaser dweeb"...or anything else for that matter. Any of those ring a bell with you though?
At least I never took you seriously.
Your latest epsiode of running away from the issue is a perfect example of why few do.
Still afraid to fly under the "RAM" handle in the MA?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-03-2001).]
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LOL!! apart of being a funny clown you show you have no brains, sir (hi hi hi)
If you knew to read you should have discovered that I have already given two numbers as short of unnaceptable. In a quite implicit way ,true...but I have given them.
Learn to read, little Toadie!...or better!...learn to PROCESSATE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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One number Ram.
The absolute maximum you will accept without whining.
Or run and hide again.
Like you did by changing handles.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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this is getting better and better...and better and better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, really you have stuck in your mind that I have changed handles huh? really hurts you so much that as I dont say a thing in #1 any more you can't use it against me in the boards? Hurts, huh? because you were used to do it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
hehehehe almost 4 months already and still noone (that I dont want him to) knows who I am...Poor Toadie...
[edit]
BTW I suggest you,really, to learn to read and understand. Again, I have mentioned the number already. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If it F**s you up then is ur problem, because the numbers are there, already posted, and said by RAM. One number vastly unnacceptable, other very short from being it. Learn to read toadie. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW the turns of post-answer-counteranswer-countercounteranswer are gone. Ramble all you want against me around here, because I wont answer you again in this thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)[/edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-03-2001).]
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It's a gawdammned DISGRACE!
Only 9300 kills, 9700 deaths!!! and a crummy .97 k/d.. THIS IS UNNACCEPABLE!
They gotta start givin folks a test before they let 'em fly ponies.
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
I don't see the problem with the F4U-1C...
If you perk the F4U-1C, then the people flying it will fly something else. If only about 40% of them switch to the N1K2-J (which is quite possible), then THAT will have 1/5 of the kills in the arena.
Will you then have to perk the N1K2-J?
If you do, then those pilots will move to a third plane and you'll end up having to perk that one too. Eventually, you'll be left with the silly predicament of having to perk planes like the 109G2 and Macci 205.
I don't think so. Let's say you perk the Chog and then that N1K with the anti-gravity pods. After those two, there isn't really another plane that can get the magic kills the Chog and N1K can get. The chog more-so. Any newbie can pull the trigger and get a "kodak moment" easy kill by chopping off someones rear stabs. Too Easy.
Spit can't do that, neither can Tiffy. I haven't had it happen by these other planes.
I would like to see a new set of stats showing the K/D of the F4U-C in two cataories
1. By pilots with a K/D of .999 or less.
2. By pilots with a K/D of 1.000 or better.
I think you will see just how many "fly and die" pilots are getting kills in the dweeb-mobile.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
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I can see this is getting ugly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've tried out the Chog for the first time this tour, I can now see why its so popular. Set the conv long, take snaps at anything under 700yds (use it like a shotgun), continue until ammo or fuel is gone, rtb with 3+ kills refuel and repeat.
I'd love to fight the Chog in a historical match up but I dont even know what it fought ? How many were used in WW2 ? and what did they fight ? Were they used in Europe or just the Pacific ?
Seriously I dont care if its perked or not in the MA as its just a "quake" arena anyway.... I'm just a little pissed that 44% of my deaths are from them, I'd call it a "spray and pray" bird but there is no need to pray (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Laika
(longing for a HA)
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As it is, the only concrete, arguable point every conceived in this thread is that the 1C is the only USMC plane represented so far.
So people want to fly a Hog... How would perking the 1C prevent them from doing so? Why does such a small change cause such a drastic disparity between two near identical types? Why do no other variants exhibit this?
If the Spit IX were perked because it's generally much more poplular then the Spit V, and by most factors make it obsolete, what would the Spit lover say?
Now what of the 1C? What if it is perked?
Is the 1D that serious of a downgrade from the 1C? Is it uncompetitive against any plane that the 1C is?
Also, for another example, say a G10 and a G10/R-6...does each fill a roll? Are their differences in flying characteristics that would lead to picking one or the other for different situations?
Nothing against the 1C, but come on that's rather silly. If you were taking away a variant that would make a plane type uncompetitive in some way I would fully understand...surely people can get over their cannon crutch?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Moo! to fanatics, Neigh! to everyone else.
-- Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
Dirty Turd Poop Group www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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really hurts you so much that as I dont say a thing in #1 any more you can't use it against me in the boards? Hurts, huh? because you were used to do it...hehehehe almost 4 months already and still noone (that I dont want him to) knows who I am...Poor Toadie...
ram, you tool, you FOOL, You showed yer bellybutton right away you turd. I am just happy you went Rooks all-a-sudden.
Your time online as Ametz in a non whining country as Bish was annoying.
Give Toad a break, we care LESS about you ambiguous gay moniker tard, but more you stop whining on the BBS and disrupting HiTech from spending 1 hour with you quiting over Combat Trim you use, and making cool code.
Ouch.
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Originally posted by M.C.202:
Downtown said:
> I don't think its too much to ask for the
> P-40B in AH. Also, I don't want them to
> Perk the C-Hawg, cause then someone would
> use it as justification to perk the P-40B.
> 2 X .50 and 4 X .30 calibers of pure death
> and destruction!
Do you want The Pandas or Angels art on your P-40B?
I'm torn between Dick Rossi's or Eric Shillings's aircraft.
I wonder if we will get the "UberPerk" hand built engines that all the AVG birds had?
15 to 20% over "book" hp :-)
Well MC 202,
With a Panda Bear on the Side and a #21 you get Gregory Boyingtons plane. After he left the AVG and went back into the Marines he flew the Hawg, so I suspect that if Natedog or Superfly were to do the #21 plane a lot of the C-Hog drivers would switch to the P-40B. (There was also a green stripe on the fuselage just forward of the tail, see the cover of Dan Fords The Flying Tigers; Claire Chenault and the American Volunteer Group (http://justto.underline.atitle), which BTW you can order from www.danford.net (http://www.danford.net) )
Anyhow I see modeling Greg Boyington's P-40 as a solution to the C-Hog problem.
(Oops! Just checked, he was an Adam and Eve, 1st Pursuit, and it was a white stripe.)
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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/06212.gif)
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 02-04-2001).]
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214Cav is right, I think the 1C percentage has more to do with field suppression than anything else. About the only time I run into them is on the deck with the field coming under heavy fire.
As for flying them, I take one anytime I approach a field that will have Ostis. Forget strafing Ostis with .50's, that just isn't going to cut it. I suppose a Spit would do, too, but if the grognards grouse about 4x20mm opening the side of an Osti, how much more so with only 2x20mm? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
They need a vultch stat, then you get your true numbers. OTOH they should have a "real-life" stat so we can know who is taking this all waaaaay too seriously. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Bingo Kieren! The -1C is the best kite for field suppression, and I'll wager most of those kills are vulches. In an attack on a large field a couple of nights ago I watched a countrymate run up 16 vulches in his -1C before someone managed to pull up enough to get him. For the next hour the vulch continued, with people racking up 6+ kills per trip, and several flying the -1C. And let's not forget about the ostdweeb kills. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, can peel an ostwind like 4xhispano. Not even the 30mm on the 190-A8 can knock out the turrets on ostwinds (aren't those OPEN TOP turrets????) like a -1C can.
And have all of you -1C crybabies forgotten that Pyro is going to revisit the flight models of the hogs? F4UDOA posted docs that showed conclusively that Pyro had the wrong wieght numbers for the -1C, and he's going back through them as soon as he can. This means the -1D will be the better handler because the -1C is supposed to be heavier.
In the meantime I'll continue to fly the George and laugh as you cry about the -1C and totally forget about the true menace in the arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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If you perk the F4U-1C, then perk the N1K2-J, then some other plane will be the most common. Currently, these two planes occupy about 1/3 of arena players. They wouldn't equally move to different planes.
A majority would move to the one which gives them a percieved advantage, real or not. No matter which game I have ever played, be it RPG, FPS, online flightsim, whatever, one item/weapon/plane is ALWAYS used more than the others. That is the unavoidable truth to online gaming.
I can't imagine any scenario in which NO plane is used in excess, unless all but the worst planes are "perked"
J_A_B
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Uh-oh.. time for some pre-emptive perking. From tour 13 so far:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tour13FvF-pre.gif)
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Look at the small numbers flying the A5 - suggest a group or very few individual experten using it.
Perk it, and it will be even more rare.
Hardly "upsetting the MA", like the tshjook.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_3845234)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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Hehe Cave, last few times I encountered you you were in a CHog - field surpressing, true - but I don't care... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
MC202, I said I won't argue about MkII Turbo Laser (tm) Hispanos because it's not about any of the CHog abilities (correctly modeled or not) but about the unproportional share it takes of all kills made. Yup, I already did a pie-diagram but I am at my parents right now so I can't up it yet. But trust me that graphic looks threatening!!! Moreover historically only few Chogs saw combat (200 I heard) so my statement on the LW experimental planes was based on the numbers they saw in service - not quite appropriate but I hope you got the point. There are some German planes that were at the edge of technological advancement but only saw combat in very few numbers... those were the once I meant. Give us the Komet, Schwalbe, Volksjäger or whatever... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
On J_A_Bs and other statements: It's true that one plane will be the most used but more than 20% of all kills (in a planeset of 13) is dominating - shouldn't it be in the makers interest that the whole variaty of planes (they give us) is used? True, MA is Quakers High anyway but this reality is pushed beyond any measure but letting run free a BFG-like plane.. For the player it should be most fun to enjoy a balanced enviroment where every variaty of possible planes is used (letting out the fact that a HA would be THE hit anyway), where every plane has its role with specific advantages and disadvantages. If in strategy game (e.g. C&C) a unit is too strong it ruins balance and the fun - and will hopefully fixed (what patches did for C&C) - the fun in RPGs is to find a perfect mixtures of the different classes, weapons, spells to conquer the game... what if there was one super-class that would make all the others obsolete? Same with action-games (online): nothing more boring than a super-weapon (BFG) that everyone uses to blast the other away... in CS for example you have to pay more cash for the better weapons (not that CS is the absolutly balanced game) -
and... stop those "if Chog gets perked N1K2 gets perked afterwards - then the next and next etc" - I seriously doubt that... first, if CHog gets perked it doesn't mean that it will disappear from the surface (that's not the goal anyway) but its dominance will diminuish (spelling???)... ok, some people will emigrate to the N1K2, but if those people who jump into the CHogs defense have a real interest in F4Us as such they will earn their perkies in the D model... maybe (maybe) the N1K2 will reach an equal share as the CHog now and measures have to be taken - but finally then people will spread along the planeset (check the statistic again - only CHog (and N1K2) pops out of a statistical share... anyone know's what "Normalverteilung" is in english?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
... and be sure that the CHog won't cost a months share... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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~Kirin~
(http://the_kirin.tripod.com/Sig_Ta152f150.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 02-04-2001).]
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(http://oberon.spaceports.com/~cmahterr/crutch1c.gif)
It was the same way in WB with the Spit9 "crutch", hopefully the perk system will knock a dent in the high usage of certain plane types.
[This message has been edited by jihad (edited 02-04-2001).]
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LOL Jihad!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Good point, heres why
1. 4 hispano vs 2
2. Wildly overmodeled roll rate (soon to be fixed I hear)
3. Fastest plane at low alt by far
4. Accelerates fast if it has 10ft of alt
5. Very manuverable at speed, tied to incorrect roll rate I guess
5. Turns well too at medium to high speeds
6. Can always run away spit cant
Actually the tiffie did well when its true capabilities were recognised. IE, a low alt fast fight-bomber.
I think you'll find most AH experienced tiffie pilots won't miss any clipping of the roll capabilities. And the acceleration is not as good as you think. A lot of other aircraft in AH can out accelerate a tiffie. And a tiffie is not that manoevreable at speed - it tends to suffer badly at high speed stalls and goes into spins easily if not treated gently.
There is a group of pilots in AH using the tiffie exactly as it was supposed to be. Generally they fly below 15k, keep fast, bounce their targets without being seen, and kill them with short close bursts. I've seen quite a few of the experienced guys now spread evenly among the countries.
Tiffies would kill most newbies simply because you can't just throw it around like the n1ki and chogs.
But once you learn its secrets its a beast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by RAM:
BTW, really you have stuck in your mind that I have changed handles huh?
Oh yes! I find it incredibly humorous that you had to leave because your own country mates were vectoring the enemy in to kill you. In fact, I laugh out loud everytime I think about you becoming such a pariah! I guess it makes it even harder for you to believe everyone doesn't agree with you, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm glad you returned under a different name; I got to remove a name from my autosquelch file in the CH Speedkeys program. Believe me, I don't WANT to know your new handle!
I still squelch the random new name now and again...maybe one of those is the new "secret RAM"...but it's not too bad. I certainly don't miss your whining on Ch1 as Ram and I haven't added anyone to the squelch list since your return, so you must have grown up a bit. Congrats.
I will do my best to try to learn to read. Can you help me with my reading comprehension here?
These are quotes from you, in order of posts:
So ONE THIRD of the kills in the Main arena is done by either of this two of planes. ONE THIRD.
Total kills of the F4U1-C: 20.7% aprox
Total Kills of the N1K2: 12% aprox
ONE FIFTH BY BLUE TURBOLASER BIRD. ONE FIFHT.
THe problem is not that it has 1.35 K/D THE FRIGGIN PROBLEM IS THAT OF EACH HUNDRED OF KILLS IN THE MAIN ARENA MORE THAN TWENTY ARE DONE BY A CHOG!!!!!!
Hey toadie, see, I wont say a number, is nothing related to numbers. Is simply that 26000 kills out of 125000 aprox, are done by a single plane. (This cracks me up BTW. So it's NOT related to numbers? What are 26,000 and 125,000?)
If you knew to read you should have discovered that I have already given two numbers as short of unnaceptable. In a quite implicit way ,true...but I have given them.
because the numbers are there, already posted, and said by RAM. One number vastly unnacceptable, other very short from being it.
Clearly, you find 20% unacceptable and want HTC to use perking to move people out of an aircraft like that.
Then you tell me you won't "say a number".
Then you tell me you "have already given two numbers as short of unnaceptable". Am I to assume "short" means "have NOT reached unacceptable"? The only two numbers you mention are 20% (-1C) and 12% (Nik). So you just said the -1c WAS acceptable because that's what you mean by "short of unacceptable?"
Your next statement reverses again: "One number vastly unnacceptable, other very short from being it"
So I guess what you are trying to communicate is that you find 20% unacceptable and 12% almost unacceptable.
Is that what I am supposed to get from your crystal clear communications?
Pretty wide range, that. 8% spread. Yet you say 12% is almost unacceptable. I guess that is as specific as you have the courage to be?
My basic problem with you Ram (and the others like you) is that you continue to argue and insist that others play the game YOUR way. You've shown it repeatedly in the HO threads, the chute shooting-no honor threads (nice to see you've switched sides on that issue. Where'd your honor go? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) the K/D threads, the multiple "Ram is quitting" threads and now here in the "perk" threads.
If it's in the game, it's in the game. People will use what is in the game. Get over it. What they fly makes them no more or less a player than anyone else.
If you aren't paying another guy's bill, you have no say in how he chooses to play...and probably not even if you were paying his bill.
It's up to HTC to lay out the "rules" of the game.
Reflect on the fact that perhaps 100 guys are regular posters on this BBS. I'd guess two or three times that many "lurk" and stay current on BBS issues. So maybe 3-400 guys?
How many accounts are there? 1500+? Looks like maybe 3 out of 4 guys don't give a hoot what we discuss here. They just want to play whatever game HTC offers them.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-04-2001).]
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To the rest of you, I apologize. I never meant to run this thread post count up so far.
I just get a little twisted when I read posts from people who continually demand that others play the game "their" way.
Sadly, if you review those types, most seem to come from one particular part of the player spectrum.
The game will continue to change. I will continue to adapt to those changes. I REALLY don't care if they perk the Me-262 or not. It won't change what I do or don't do.
I apologize to you all. I will try to do better.
Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about how the other guy plays.
It's a game!
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-04-2001).]
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....amen.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Disponible for read in the HTC help link :
The perk system is a way for us to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that. Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc. These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis. So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.
This is a text created and posted by HiTech Creations themselfs. This is the definition of the Perk system. Unballancing planes will be perked, as for this text.
It is up for HTC to say what is unballancing or not, but if the F4U1-C is not a clear case of this in the current main arena then I have to ask what the hell is an unbalancing plane.
I ask this because the Ta152 wont ever be half the terror the Chog is right now in the Main Arena (unless you take the time to climb to 35.000 feet, of course), yet it will be a perk plane. So...what is unballancing?
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-04-2001).]
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Caution--somewhat long:
I always though "unbalancing" meant aircraft performance--that is, those planes which utterly outperform the "normal" planes would be perked. That means planes like Tempests and ME-262's and such are "perk" material. By this definition, a plane with average performance (F4U) is not really a "perk" plane. When I subscribed to AH, the F4U-1C was common, but no superplane. I would much rather fight a horde of F4U-1C's than a horde of N1K2's or Spit 9's, much less Tempests or jets.
I don't think a plane with 20% of the arena kills is "unbalancing". Rather, I think that's a fact of online life. As long as the planes perform differently, one will be used much more than the others. This is the case in every game I've ever played, be it FPS, RPG, RTS, or Sim.
Actually, 20% for the most popular plane/item/weapon shows EXCELLENT balance--usually the number is more like half!
The only sure way to balance plane usage is to limit total numbers of any plane allowed up at any given moment--which clearly wouldn't be very popular (and I myself would hate it).
I still fail to see the benefit of perking the F4U-1C. The numbers will simply move to some other plane. They WILL NOT equally disperse among the other available planes; instead a majority will move to the one with the percieved advantage. No matter what, one plane will see a dispraportionate amount of use.
I do see RAM's point--it isn't "balanced" in one sense of the word when one plane dominates the arena. And it does get old fighting the same plane over and over (this is why I wouldn't like a Historic Arena). However, I think this sort of "imbalance" is an unavoidable part of online gaming. I also doubt it's what the "perk" system was originally meant to address.
A more productive solution: Develop tactics geared spcifically towards the destruction of F4U's, and fly accordingly. STAY AWAY from those guns! DO NOT take the chance of letting it get a snapshot! Make sure you have more distance than normal when trying to rope them! Negate their advantage.
In a nutshell, I don't think the F4U-1C is "unbalancing" in the same sense a ME-262 is. That is MY opinion. Whether the C-hog is fair or not all depends on your interpretation of the word "balance". Being human, we won't all agree.
On a second thought--what really matters is HTC's defination of "unbalancing"!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
J_A_B
(and since I don't currently subscribe to AH I have no secret "agenda")
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
On a second thought--what really matters is HTC's defination of "unbalancing"!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Here you have it:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007299.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007299.html)
Originally posted by Pyro:
Perks are a way to balance the arena, not so much a means of classifying planes. How many were produced or what its combat record was is not relevant. Some planes intended to be perks may not need to be while others that weren't intended to be may end up getting perked. Right now, the F4U-1C is accounting for about 20% of all kills in the arena. I don't want to push the score values any further so perking it is about the only option left. I don't really like the idea of making a carrier plane unavailable from the carrier.
K/D ratios and historical uses wont be reason for perking according to this quote. Overused planes in the Main arena ARE reason for perking.
F4U1-C Kills represent 20% of the total. Almost 8% more than the second in the list, the N1K2 (ammounting for 12%), and almost 13% than the third, the P51D (something near 7.5%).
The F4U1-C is almost 2 times more used than the N1K2, and almost 2.7 times more used than the P51D.
I think the data says enough.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-04-2001).]
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Thanks for posting that link--it's what I was hinting at. I would've posted it myself, but I am not good with HTML.
That statement makes HTC's feelings on the matter clear (even though I personally don't agree because I think it'll end up with half the planeset perked).
Of course, HTC's opinion needn't stop the community from having a good discussion!
J_A_B
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Maybe I missed, it but I find it hard to believe that no one mentioned that one hundred times as many c-hogs are destroyed per Aces High monthly tour than were ever manufactured in real life for all time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Every statistical analysis of AH scores that has been done has shown that the F4U-1C has the highest or second highest kill ratio and highest usage by far. The reasons have been explained often: high speed and robustness that minimizes the "d" part of the k/d and good enough manouverability to take snap shots which, with the high ROF and high muzzle velocity of the 4 cannons, more often than not leads to an increase in the "k" part of the k/d equation. So why is it's usage so high: because lots of AH customers want to do well and they aren't stupid. The data is clear: what isn't clear is what is to be defined as "unbalancing". When I first did a score analysis like the one starting this thread (from many tours ago and giving pretty much the same results) I did it to prove to myself that the c-hog had like a factor of two or three advantage. In fact it usually hovers between only 30 and 50% advantage over most other planes. But this smaller than I thought but statistically significant advantage, and the fact that it's usage rate in AH is so high (20%), and its usage rate in real life so low, places it, in my opinion, near or over the threshold of "unbalancing". But others might have a different threshold.
I do admit, however, that on the rare occasion I do love blowing the big blue buggers up with my Spit IX. Unfortunately, given my lack of skill and the factor of 35% the c-hog has over my Spit, the occasions are too rare (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
715
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IMNSHO The Chog is a festering boil on the bellybutton of AH. I dislike it to the point you could say I foam a bit at the mouth when discussing it. It IS unbalancing. There is NO denying it. I not only hate to fight against them, I cannot stand to fight near my country men who fly them. I am not the best at gunnery and its very frustrating to bounce an enemy, ping him from left to right with many shells, and see the smoke start to pour from his engine, only to see some weazely chump in a chog breakout his antimatter particle cannons and get 2(!!!) hits on the same aircraft, watch it desintigrate with chumpawhumpa getting the kill. <<---(Look here for lessons in run on sentences)Thats assanine. I was also going to point out to the popularists in the crowd about if the boil was lanced, oops I mean perked, no one would loose anything. Everyone would get to enjoy the wonderful attributes of the Hog, they would just have to do it with the true to life girly lil 'ol 6 50 cal's that 99.99% of all sorties in WW2 F4's were fortunate to fly with, but others much more eloquent and tactful than myself have already pointed that out, so I wont.
A few weeks ago while expressing my opinions in a general discussion on ch1, some punk 12 year old told me if I didn't like it, I could leave. My response was, "I've been here for a over a year, I love it, why should I leave." Oh, and something about diapers...but, the reality of the situation is, there are many options lurking around the corners and I vote with my coin.
Oh, my last point. Its an abomination.
Liz
disclamer: The above views are solely those of the author and are in no way intended to reflect the views of anyone other than the author. Neither animals nor chumps were killed in the writing of this...rant.
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To add my point and increase the waste of bandwith (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I feel "raped" each time one of this "blue abomination" (c)RAM 2000 kill me at 1K+ (on my FE) with one exception when I thing I'm good enough to avoid a vulch (happend rarely (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)))
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I had an aileron taken out by a chog at 1.8k, when my connex was good.
Another damaged me at 1.3k.
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Well, IMHO, CHog is fun for newbies because they can actually do some harm to the superior pilots they face.
When someone signs up for the PPL course, the first flight is done either in the morning or after the hot midday hours, and the instructor lets the student do most things, helping him if necessary, but the student has a wonderful time.
Then he's hooked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You could say that's the "bait"... so I may not be wrong to say that the CHog (and the Nikki) is the "bait" for all newbies to AH.
Eventually, they'll move to more challenging rides, but, heck, they are having fun from day 1!
Just my € 0.02
Daniel, aka CyranoDB
[This message has been edited by CyranoAH (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Originally posted by Torgo:
As I've had to point out about a billion times, Marine Corps CHogs operated off Escort Carriers in the Okinawa Campaign, and in 1944-1945 there were a number of Marine squadrons that solely operated off Carriers.
As far as I know right now, I can't find any evidence of any combat CHog sorties that WEREN'T off Carriers.
Fer christs sake Torgo, I know that! As you admit, you've posted interminably about the subject of Hog-Cs off carriers.
What I am saying is how do you best balance the arena? Do you perk the CHog? Or limit its availablility to ground fields?
Which is the lesser of two evils?