Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on February 04, 2002, 11:33:22 AM
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Setting ammo counter to 0 instead of killing the shooting plane?
Or ...
Destroying shooting plane guns instead destroying entire plane.
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No and no.
Repeating this suggestion ad nauseum won't make it any better, nor will it make people support it any more.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think it's a cool idea. "Guns Jammed" message instead of exploding plane. Why not?
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I must be missing something, because I fail to see why this (or a variant of it) is such an obviously bad suggestion. Are there any substantial comments that can be said about this besides the tired "KS works and it's always your fault" that appears to be drudged up every time someone suggests an alternative?
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Well, it does work, and it is always your fault. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work with guns jammed as well, just seems like a light consequence for attempted murder.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I think it's a cool idea. "Guns Jammed" message instead of exploding plane. Why not?
A temporary "guns jammed" would be cool. An instant and permanant failure of all guns, or setting ammo load to zero as MANDOBLE suggests, strikes me as overly punitive.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Saturday I cleared a friendly that had an enemy on his 6 at about 100 yards. I had no choice but to engage and I pinged the friendly a couple of times before dispatching of the enemy camped on his 6.
I'd really hate to think that my guns would not have worked allowing me to clear his 6 because I pinged him once. I also accepted that there was a risk of me damaging myself before I could dispatch the enemy... yet I was willing to be allowed to take that risk. The zero ammo counter idea would not allow for that.
As unrealistic as the current KS system is... it definately promotes more realistic behavior on the side of the shooter.... which is better than not promoting realistic behavior at all. And to be honest, 90% of the time its the shooter's fault... we just get the 10% thrown around here as if its the rule.
AKDejaVu
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Todd I don't think it's overly punitive compared to having one's plane explode. :)
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"As unrealistic as the current KS system is... it definately promotes more realistic behavior on the side of the shooter."
Exactly.
KS needs to be extremely punitive. Otherwise, we'd have the whole conga line blasting away over each other's shoulders, willing to risk a "temporary guns jammed" to get a kill.
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Yes, either idea would be an improvement.
Sometimes "friendly fire" is alost impossible for the shooter to prevent. Especially when the "friendly" flies into a line of fire from underneath, giving the shooter no opportunity to react, because the friendly's first appearance to the shooter is too late.
Leviathn,
I asked MANDOBLE to post this poll because I thought it was both an excellent and new idea.
eskimo
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Originally posted by funkedup
Todd I don't think it's overly punitive compared to having one's plane explode. :)
You must have better aim than I do, because I've only killshootered myself once accidentally in the last three months. Intentionally on the other hand... :D
Also, the nice thing about killshooter as currently implemented is that it is punitive by degrees. It's possible that you'll blow yourself up, but it's also possible that you won't do any real damage at all. I'd hate to think I'd lose all of my ammo because an errant .303 dings someone.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Perhaps each "ping" could disable 1 gun. I.E. 1 20mm, or 3 50s, or 10 303s would disable a gun in the shooters plane.
eskimo
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I think a better solution is having guns jam for a set period, 10 seconds perhaps. Along with that a loss of a portion of your ammo (50% each time).
Vortex
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Originally posted by Vortex
I think a better solution is having guns jam for a set period, 10 seconds perhaps. Along with that a loss of a portion of your ammo (50% each time).
Why the second part? Wouldn't the first part be sufficient to eliminate the problem?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Fatty
for attempted murder.
ROFLOLLOLROFROF, no comments ...
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The second part was to add a bit more meat to it, and the percentage could be whatever one see's as appropriate (25%, 50%, etc). Point being that, warps and what not aside, your bullets went where they shouldn't have and as a result we'll take a few away. The simple jamming may indeed be sufficient though.
Vortex
P.S. I kinda like eskimo's suggestion too of disabling guns for the hits. One of the advantages of that format is you're not adding anything new to the datastream. The client and server already know you hit a friendly, and more importantly _what_ you hit it with (i.e. mg, cannon, both). All you're doing is telling the server to apply a different result. Instead of allocating damage proportional to the calbre hit, just reapply the hit back to the weapon itself. Effectively you shoot out your own gun.
One unknown here though would be how one removes the guns. That is to say one burst of 303's might give you 8 hits. Do you pull away 8 mg's then? Or do you remove one or two based on a ratio of some sort. That I'm not sure of.
Nevertheless, the thing I really like about this is that it comes back to a good point you made about one benefit of killshooter presently; that it deals damage based on what you hand out. So a wayward mg shot would, in this case, remove an mg. A wayward cannon pulls one of those out of the equation. You maintain that balance to a degree. Its just the penalty is directed specifically to the cause (your guns), not the plane generally. Do ti enough and you have to sulk your way ack to base, defenseless :).
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while still unrealistic, I like the fact that KS as it is currently still follows the logic that when bullets hit an aircraft, someone is getting shot.
I find it interesting that some people who complain about "gamey" aspects of AH like combat trim would be pushing for a cheezy feature like "gun jams". There should be serious consequences for blasting away at allied aircraft. Friendly fire was a concern in combat, judging from these boards its currently a concern in our arenas - that's how it should be.
Ideally HTC could find a way to turn friendly fire on...maybe roll it out in the CT and see how it goes?
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Originally posted by Hornet
I find it interesting that some people who complain about "gamey" aspects of AH like combat trim would be pushing for a cheezy feature like "gun jams". There should be serious consequences for blasting away at allied aircraft. Friendly fire was a concern in combat, judging from these boards its currently a concern in our arenas - that's how it should be.
Ideally HTC could find a way to turn friendly fire on...maybe roll it out in the CT and see how it goes?
I don't mind a penalty per se Hornet. However you're trying to compare a real world example to an environment that has no significant similarity with that real world. This is simply a gameplay issue, not any attempt to model anything from history. After all, although many like to think of these sims as in some way representative of WWII, they aren't. Not in any recognizable way at least. They try to recreate an environment condusive to ACM of an era and at the same time make a good attempt at modelling certain a/c characteristics. That's about all though. Everything beyond that exists for one reason alone...game play. Emphasis on the "game" aspect here as well. Historical combat or anything relating to it really doesn't have any place in a sim such as this. If it did no one would pay to play. Gameplay always is the first and last smell test.
Unfortunately one could never have friendly fire enabled in a game like this either. It caters too much to griefs. Shoot down whoever you want on whatever team (yours included) at no cost to yourself.
Vortex
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I have proably been killshootered as much as anyone else around here. Deja is right, 90 percent of the time it was me taking a shot that I probably shouldn't have. I just don't see how what we currently have is broken or unfair enough to warrant a change.
Oh well, just my 2/5 of a nickel's worth.
-math
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Not trying to insult anyone personally but.....Holy CRAP!!!!! I am glad that you guys are not game designers...this game would end up so freaking complex that no one would want to play it. Guns jam? Bullets 0? What the??????
:rolleyes:
Personally I say remove killshooter and if you shoot down a friendly then you have to go to trial and risk getting courtmartialed and your wings permanently taken away. It will be a trial by jury, made up of the guy you shot down's family. Of course if convicted you will be banned from the game but still have to pay your monthly fee plus child support to the fatherless children of the guy you shot. :D of course if you are found not guilty and that it was the other guy's fault for getting in your way then his widow will have to pay you a $10million dollar fine for the dummy getting in your way and messing up your shot, and his children will have to wax your car every month for 10 years.
SERIOUSLY
Current killshooter works because it is simple...you shoot a friendly, you take the damage. You might take minor damage or you might die. That's what bullets do, deal with the risk.
If you are getting killed alot from killshooter and its bothering you then you need to change the way you approach a target and consider everyone around you.
If you are just a crappy shot (like me) then do what I do, don't shoot until you are about 200yds or less and you are sure you have a shot.
If you keep dying while trying to save a teammate with a bogey on his six, then you need to practice your aim or change your approach.
If people keep diving in front of you just as you are about to take the shot then you need to quit swarming targets, even if you were the first guy in persuit and the other dweebs are tying to milk the kill now that you have the enemy on the run, sometimes its better to pull out and not risk a killshooter death, rather than insisting that its your target and sticking to him when there are several other friendlies chasing too.
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If it's not broke, why fix it?
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Killshooter is a good solution to what would otherwise be a horrid problem.
I don't want people trying to shoot though me to steal kills
I sure as hell don't want people shooting just above me to make me think there is an enemy on my 6 and distract me from my target
I sure as funking hell dont want to talk about this any more
:D
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I understand what you are saying Vortex, and I agree with you that AH's strength is creating as accurate as possible ACM environment as opposed to a purely historical one.
But to this end, I still feel that killshooter contributes positively to the ACM environment, certainly more so than a "gun jam" feature would.
In multiple A/C vs. one situations KS does play a significant role in the tactics of the game. Pilots cannot be as reckless in taking each firing solution that presents themselves as they would like to be (perhaps the motivation for this thread?). And tactics like the scissors can get very dangerous if multiple bogeys get sucked into chasing through the move.
I would argue that the risk of plane damage leading to death is a greater deterrent than getting a gun jam or loss of ammo. Because of this a good majority of pilots do not take shots in situations that they would otherwise "risk" if there was a lesser penalty.
So in effect, Killshooter does have an affect on ACM in Aces High, if not mirroring the historical concerns of friendly fire, KS at least provides a similar element to our gameplay.
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How about posting a pic of Fatty's naked red butt on the whole screen EVERY time a bullet hits a friendly plane.
If that doesnt work, nothing will!
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It is hilarious to see how may posters simply are absolutely unable to understand the idea, the consecuences and the surely minimal code modification involved :D :D
Some people talking about "killing the serial killlers", some others taking about "killing the kill stelaers", some others saying "No, please, no, setting the ammo to 0 is ridiculous, better to kill the plane or to dissable the guns for several seconds", others giving a wise tip "get closer before firing, and be sure to not make the enemy to explode because the bullets will pass through the explosion ;) ".
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It's not broken, leave it alone. Might not be perfect but it's the best solution of all I have seen above. Even though it got me into rather hot water last nite. I saddled up this 109 not seeing that ElGuapo had him already saddled. I came in 90 off angle to the 109 and so Elguapo was off my left screen when I tagged the 109. Anyway Guapo managed to kS himself and was understandable upset. So who's fault was this, mine for not surveying the scene properly or ElGuapo for continuing to fire? Mebbe there were other circumstances, perhaps Guapo didnt see me till it was too late?
I got a little sniffy with ElGuapo mainly because I was mad at myself for allowing it to happen, and partially because it was as much a surprise to me in that I kinda didnt beleive it had even happened.
Sorry ElGuapo!! I would not have saddled the 109 if I had of seen you there already.
Peace Man?
Next time I see ya I'll saddle one up and leave it all to you to finish:)
__________________
Flt.Lt.Gremlin
Firebirds, 56 "Fighter" Sqn RAF.
Second Tactical Air Force
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/56sig.gif)
"Quid si coelum ruat - 'What if heaven falls?'"
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IMO, Killshooter works great the way it is. Watch what you're doing and take the kind of precautions you should when firing a lethal weapon around a friendly and 9 times out of 10 you won't be affected by killshooter. That 1 time out of 10 when someone knowingly or unknowingly saddles up a con right in front of your bullet stream, the right thing happens - a friendly is shot down. The only difference is, it's you and not him.
Think of it as just one small advantage for the guy getting chased down by two or more cons.
SOB
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Aww, c'mon SOB,
You fly with the FDBs, now tell me ya don't want killshooter off sometimes. (even most times).
Hell, nuthin' is as sweet as firin' a few tracer rounds over a squaddies head, and hittin' "check 6" then watchin' 'em roll out and start floppin' like a beached fish. Ifin' it weren't fer that damn killshooter thingie, and sometimes pingin' myself it would be not just good but GREAT entertainment.
Well worth the price of admission.
Turn KS off! Make the plane ya hit take damage like in RL.
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Even with killshooter on, I still shoot my squddies. I bomb them too, which is even more satisfying!
SOB
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Plus sometimes I want to up a new plane, and it takes too long to auger.