Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on February 04, 2002, 09:35:49 PM
-
Today, sitting at my desk in the office eating lunch, I began comparing kill/death stats of the various aircraft during tour 24. I stumbled across something that surprised me.
During the whole of tour 24, the Ki-61 had a 2121/1687 kill to death tally, or about a 1.26:1 ratio. That's right up there with the La-7 at 1.32:1. For comparison sake, let's look at the P-38L, which comes in with a 0.90:1 ratio. Or the P-51D at 1.006:1! Geez, the Tony is doing pretty damn good out there. Even the mighty Dora is only marginally better than the Ki-61 with a 1.39:1 ratio.
So, I thought, "what gives?"
Well, this evening I tried the Tony offline for about 15 minutes and found it to be remarkably agile, with decent speed at low and medium altitude. Moreover, it dives very well.
I then logged on and tried my hand at the Tony. Indeed, I was very pleased with the result. I flew one practice sortie at night and headed for a busy field with the dawn light. Two sorties later I had 3 kills and 4 assists, without anyone even much as getting a shot at me. These included a Dora, a Spit Mk.IX and a Seafire.
The Dora was a classic ambush from low, behind. He never saw me coming and was "Tail-end Charlie" anyway. However, the Seafire was a good old fashioned one-on-one. Much to my amazement, the Ki-61 had no trouble matching the Seafire turn for turn, until I gained enough lead to hammer his engine. My fight with the Spit IX was less interesting, other than it showed me that my marksmanship has greatly improved. I came roaring down on him at about 450 mph, got a few hits, and chandelled high to the right. The Spitfire, trailing coolant, half looped into an Immelmen. He spotted me high to his left, angling down. He tried to pull up and around to meet me head on, but his speed was far too low and his turn rate equally so. I killed him with the my next shot, about 30 degrees off angle at his 10 o'clock high position.
The assists? A P-51D, F4U, Fw 190A and another Spitfire IX.
I guess you could say that I'm sold on the Ki-61. Adding 2 additional kills in a Flak Panzer (one death when my M-16 got clobbered), I somehow managed to end up with an overall rating of 117 as of right now.;) Of course, who knows what tomorrow will bring.....
As it stands, I think that I'll be flying the Ki-61 as often as my other favorite, the Spitfire Mk.V, in which, I managed a 1.7:1 ratio despite being a newbie.
My first week flying AH, Leviathn gave me a lesson, or more accurately, a beating. Both of us were in Mk.Vs. However, I'm a quick study and in our next encounter in the same type, I evened the score. Although, I don't have much confidence that I could do that again.;) As it was, I had to chase him all over Hell's Half Acre to get 'em. He's one heck of a pilot. Guys like Leviathn and aknimitz are the type of pilots I measure myself against. So far, I'm about even against them.
Anyway, if you haven't tried the Ki-61, I certainly recommend it. You will be likely very surprised at its ability, and so will the guys in the Doras and Mustangs.:eek:
Now, where's the Ki-84?!:D
My regards,
Widewing
Postscript: I made two more sorties after originally posting this. Add 3 more kills and an assist, including an La-7, which I chased down and killed on the deck. Still, I've not yet been hit. Yup, I'm beginning to really like this Ki-61.
-
It's a fun little plane. But slow as hell, with a poor climb rate. If it has a high kill/death ratio then some good pilots are flying it.
-
The Ki-61's best tour was Tour 19.
Tour 19:
The Ki-61 has 3696 kills and has been killed 2353 times.
Kills per death: 1.57
There are times when a lot of the good Japanese players fly it. That heavily distorts its K/D, which is easy to do on any unit that has low kill totals.
-
I'm goona give it a whirl this camp Widewing.Never flown it before..Thnx for your info on it..
-
I was completely amazed when I saw how it outturned my spitV at medium speed. With a wide margin..
Of course after 2 turns he slowed down and came a very easy hovering target, completely defenseless. But he damn near scored hits on those first 2.
-
i flew the tony for a while in tour 24. i was very impressed with the performance of the plane but wasnt real pleased with the gun platform. i had a 2.5 K/D in it i believe.
-
Originally posted by mrsid2
I was completely amazed when I saw how it outturned my spitV at medium speed. With a wide margin..
Of course after 2 turns he slowed down and came a very easy hovering target, completely defenseless. But he damn near scored hits on those first 2.
I understand. I have learned the hard way not to bleed so much E that I find myself well below corner speed. That's the secret to the Tony. It retains E well, but requires that attention be paid to airspeed. Get it down below 200 mph and the Zekes and Spits will gain the edge. Keep it above that speed and you can fight with anything. Never go vertical unless you have a significant E advantage to begin with. Secondly, never, ever take the Ki-61 vertical in the middle of a furball. The Tony requires a smooth hand.
I have found that it's wise to avoid a fight until you have about 15k under you. Once you have some altitude, you can start looking for trouble.
As a gun platform, I find it similar to the Spitfires, both in gun power and ammo load. It does tend to be a bit nose-bouncy. However, it was very effective against Buffs. I killed one, and assisted on another, killing the gunner. While chasing an La-7, I found myself not gaining after about 30 seconds. So, at 1.1k I fired a burst, and saw some strikes. This caused the Lavochkin to start jinking, which slowed him enough to close in and kill him. Because the Tony has a relatively low ammo loadout, good gunnery skills and/or discipline are necessary to avoid finding one's self with empty magazines. Nonetheless, this is an airplane that rewards careful flying.
My regards,
Widewing
-
There are times when a lot of the good Japanese players fly it. That heavily distorts its K/D, which is easy to do on any unit that has low kill totals.
Karnak imagine somebody ever said something like that about a LW plane.......
-
In the Tour 19, I've flown in Ki-61 as Mituzawa.
My record was 1000 kills and 98 deaths in it. :)
BTW, I restarted flying in Ki-61 from this tour, because Ki-67 bomber is coming. :)
-Mitsu
-
Mitsu,
Good show!!!
GRUNHERZ,
I do make that assupmtion about the German aircraft with low kill numbers. The Bf109G-10 and Fw190D-9 simply haven't got those numbers low enough.
Mitsu had 25% of the Ki-61's kills in Tour 19 and a K/D in it of slightly better than 10-1. If you remove his kills and his deaths it suddenly doesn't look nearly as good.
Ki-61 Tour 19 without Mitsu:
The Ki-61 has 2696 kills and has been killed 2255 times.
Kills per death: 1.19
That is from a single good pilot in a low kill aircraft.
-
Perk Mitsu :D
-
Originally posted by Mitsu
In the Tour 19, I've flown in Ki-61 as Mituzawa.
My record was 1000 kills and 98 deaths in it. :)
BTW, I restarted flying in Ki-61 from this tour, because Ki-67 bomber is coming. :)
-Mitsu
Between Mitsu and myself, we're 20 and 2 with the Ki-61 as of now.
Mitsu: 14 kills, 2 deaths
Widewing: 6 kills, 0 deaths
So, that's still 10:1.
Currently, the Ki-61 has 51 kills and 23 deaths in tour 25. However, Mitsu and I have 20 of the kills and two of the deaths. So, readjusted to remove our numbers and you have 31 kills and 21 deaths. Or, a 1.48:1 ratio. That's still pretty dang good, although still very early in the tour.
I suspect that there are two or three other "Sierra Hotel" Hien jockeys out there that probably account for most of the balance. Nonetheless, the Ki-61 is proving to be a very formidable fighter in the hands of those who know how to use it. Mitsu's remarkable 10:1 ratio is solid evidence of that. I'm sure glad he's a Rook! :D
My regards,
Widewing
-
I flew the Tony in the CT during Fire in the Sky whenever the Axis numbers were low. It's a really nice little plane.
Strangely enough, it is VERY similar to the Hellcat. I am a guy that flies the Jug mostly and the Hellcat sometimes, and I found the Tony to be a great little plane. Very similar to the Hellcat in many respects, without quite as good diving ability. The Tony turns a bit better, but it's really a very good match to the Hellcat. Tony Vs. Hellcat battles are really tight fights, and all else being equal the better E manager will win. :)
-
I was completely amazed when I saw how it outturned my spitV at medium speed. With a wide margin..
Know thy opponent. Clearly, a Spit must use BnZ tactics against this aircraft.
-
I've flown the Spits and the Ki-61 extensively. The Tony is no match for the Spit V if the pilots are equal. Spit V turns better, climbs better, flies faster, etc. Tony has great guns though. :)
-
It's one of my favorite planes because.....
It is very easy to get kills in.
No complex explaination, people simply refuse to believe it can compete so they don't fly it. Then again that's the case with most of the top k/d rides, people always put the case forward of how hard their plane is to fly, and it's only got a good k/d because they're excellent pilots and are inflating it.
-
Originally posted by Lephturn
I flew the Tony in the CT during Fire in the Sky whenever the Axis numbers were low. It's a really nice little plane.
Strangely enough, it is VERY similar to the Hellcat. I am a guy that flies the Jug mostly and the Hellcat sometimes, and I found the Tony to be a great little plane. Very similar to the Hellcat in many respects, without quite as good diving ability. The Tony turns a bit better, but it's really a very good match to the Hellcat. Tony Vs. Hellcat battles are really tight fights, and all else being equal the better E manager will win. :)
Lost an excellent fight the other day to to a hellcat in the CT. We merged at 18k me in a Ki him in the kitten. And we both did a little bit of everything for about 5 turns. we both went high at the same time and I lost track of him in the unfamiliar cockpit...ooops. once he was behind me I couldnt extend out of 50 cal range and he held down the trigger as I tried to dive and sissor away.
I have to aggree they seem well matched. I wouldnt want to take on Math in a hellcat in one but it was a very good fight.
-
Originally posted by qts
Know thy opponent. Clearly, a Spit must use BnZ tactics against this aircraft.
BnZ it? Hardly. I'll turn at medium speeds long enough to sucker a Ki-61 into a turnfight, at which point I'll hit the brakes and make them pay for their silliness.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
ROLF The reason Mitsu has a 10:1 K/D ratio in it is because he flies at 25k with 8 friends wherever he goes.
-
Nath[BDP],
Every time I've met Mitsu in AH he's been alone. He's also blasted me out of the sky each time as well.
-
I could get a 15/1 KD in Bf109G6 or 25/1 in FW190A5 just flying smart and always under 15k. These planes are similar to the Ki61, very capable but underused.
-
Originally posted by funkedup
I've flown the Spits and the Ki-61 extensively. The Tony is no match for the Spit V if the pilots are equal. Spit V turns better, climbs better, flies faster, etc. Tony has great guns though. :)
I've spent a good amount of time in the SpitV, and I enjoy it very much. However, it is not faster than the Ki-61 until they get above 12k. Below that, the Tony has the edge. I also don't think that the equal pilot argument holds water either. A smart pilot flying the Ki-61 will not engage in a stallfight with a SpitV. I sure as hell won't. Tonight, I killed another Seafire in the Tony. It was a case of fighting my fight and not his. When the Seafire pilot realized that he could not out-turn me at 250 mph, he tried a hard, tight turn. I simply went right on by, unloaded and extended out. Converting my speed into altitude, the Seafire found me about 3k above him and coming down fast. Now it was his turn to nose over. However, he was too late as I split-s'd right onto his backside at .6k. He tries another hard turn, but I'm not buying. I high yoyo'd right and shot him out of his turn. Had I missed, I would have unloaded and extended yet again. But, I didn't miss and he went back to the tower. No way am I going to play the stallfighting game with any Spitfire or Seafire. That's fighting to their strength.
It's interesting that the SpitIX and Ki-61 carry, essentially, the same armament. What makes the Tony much more effective is the mounting of the cannons above the engine, very near centerline. It's this better concentration of firepower that makes the Ki-61 so lethal. I killed a Lanc with one 2 second burst, literally exploding it from 200 yards, dead astern. He never saw me slide up from underneath.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Karnak
The Ki-61's best tour was Tour 19.
Tour 19:
The Ki-61 has 3696 kills and has been killed 2353 times.
Kills per death: 1.57
There are times when a lot of the good Japanese players fly it. That heavily distorts its K/D, which is easy to do on any unit that has low kill totals.
I have to agree with you. Mitsu and I have 25 of the 66 kills credited to the Ki-61. However, we have only 3 of the 46 deaths attributed to it. So, if you take our numbers away, you find 41 kills and 43 deaths. Not very good. I believe that it will improve as pilots just trying it for the first time learn its strengths and avoid exposing its weaknesses.
Currently, Mitsu has a 7:1 k/d ratio in the Ki-61. I have a 9:1 k/d ratio. I didn't see Mitsu in the main arena tonight, but I suspect that he will improve his ratio by tomorrow.
My regards,
Widewing
-
LOL! Widewing, you better be careful ;)
Now some of the better pilots will go hunting Ki-61's just hoping that it will be you or Mitsu (and you two fly at very different times) and hoping to ruin the K/D your talking about.
Not that I've run into Mitsu in a while, and I've only killed you in Spit V's, but I find the Ki61 just a tastey snack for just about any of the BnZ planes I fly.
About the only time I die to one is when I get bored and furball while flying a P51/Dora low over an airfield.
Of course, now If I see one I will be compelled to come after it just as a challenge ;)
-
This is a great thread, and an interesting study, but I don't think you should hold your breath for the Ki-61 to catch on with the dweebs of the world. It seems to me, just from reading this thread mind you, that the reason that WideWing and Mitsu are so proficient in this plane is that they have learned where its peak performance lies. The problem is that this is in the middle. It's not badass at high speeds, and its not Uber at low speeds. You have to have some attention to detail when tailoring your ACM to keep within the goldielocks envelope (not too fast, not too slow, but Juuuuust Riiiiiight). The most popular (and therefore dweeby i guess) Planes seem to max out at one edge or the other. The Hein can't fight at high speeds with an La-7 or at slow speeds with the Spit-5. It seems to fall in-between the cracks.
With that said however, It sounds like an awful lot of fun, and the Tony was the one plane I always wanted to fly in AW, so I'll certainly give it a few flights this camp.
-Sikboy
-
Originally posted by Vermillion
LOL! Widewing, you better be careful ;)
Now some of the better pilots will go hunting Ki-61's just hoping that it will be you or Mitsu (and you two fly at very different times) and hoping to ruin the K/D your talking about.
Not that I've run into Mitsu in a while, and I've only killed you in Spit V's, but I find the Ki61 just a tastey snack for just about any of the BnZ planes I fly.
About the only time I die to one is when I get bored and furball while flying a P51/Dora low over an airfield.
Of course, now If I see one I will be compelled to come after it just as a challenge ;)
Well, from what I've seen of Mitsu, anyone out looking for him is probably out looking for a beating.:p
Geez Verm, I was already of the impression that I was a target already.;) Last evening I found myself the center of attraction twice. The first time I was climbing out when a Mustang and two Spits singled me out for attention. When they came down, I was able to dodge their BnZ runs without too much trouble. Oddly, the Mustang began a leisurely climbing turn. I cut him off and shot off his right aileron before the Spits forced me to break away. After dueling with the Spitfires for a few minutes, I saw an opening and ran. Both were Mk.Vs and I had no trouble out-distancing them. Good thing too, I was down to less than 50 rounds of ammo.
Later, I found myself in a similar situation. However, there were at least 10 Bishes to deal with. There wasn't any possibility to run, so I slugged it out getting one and damaging at least two others before my luck ran out.:(
Like you, if I avoid the furballs, I seldom get pinged. I prefer to hang out high above the ingress and egress route of the aforementioned furball. You can vulch on the guys heading back home, out of ammo, gas or both. I pulled the wings off of a Mossy last night, trying to get a shot at a retiring 109 while diving. I forgot about the weight of those engines out there. You can do this sort of thing in a Spitfire, but not a Mossy. It can't handle those loads.
Finally, I decided to try the C.205. My only other experience with one was back in Tour 24, and was short lived. At that time I was whacked while taking off and never tried the type again. So, I figured, "why not give it another go?"
Well, I like it a lot. It has acceptable speed, climbs reasonably well and handles nicely. All the discussion about its guns being under-modeled is lost on me. I killed a SpitIX with two short squirts. My only dislike is the forward vision. I suspect you'd be better off with a periscope. :D
By the way, what's your arena handle? I'd like to recognize you when I shoot down your Dora. ;) Or, likewise, know that it's you who got me.:mad:
As always, my best.
Widewing
-
:)
Your right the 205 is also a very good plane that is quite underestimated in the arena.
My arena handle is "Verm"
-
Widewing, I think when you mention people complaining about guns you are thinking of the C202, not the 205. The 205 has decent armament, pretty much identical to the Dora. I like to fly the C205, I just wish it wasn't like flying in a jail cell....very easy to lose cons in the forward cockpit bars.
-
Point of clarification the MGs on the KI-61 aren't bad either. A much closer match to the spitIX loadout than the spitV.
-
Originally posted by Vermillion
:)
Your right the 205 is also a very good plane that is quite underestimated in the arena.
My arena handle is "Verm"
Sunday night, I ran across a pair of C.205s jousting with an La-7. I too was flying a Lavochkin, and I waded in. It didn't take me long to understand that the 205 is a dangerous opponent. Being real careful to manage my E, I found it difficult in the extreme to get a good angle on my target. I eventually got him, but I'm convinced that he was distracted trying to cover his buddy, whom he turned towards, giving me my first decent shot. Indeed, with two La-7s now on the lone 205, it still took a lot of coordinated work to get him as well. I'm convinced yet again, that the second pilot screwed up by trying to run rather than use his superior agility to fight back.
Thinking back on that second 205, I believe I would have used my Spitfire defensive tactic for dealing with two or more attackers. I spiral down to the deck (or water as this case was), and fly a series of defensive turns and figure 8s. Being on the deck means that I don't have to worry about what is below me. Now I only have to defend one hemisphere as opposed to all angles. I figure that the 205 turns much better than the Lavochkin. So, using that, and the ever present danger of BnZers flying into the ground or water, the 205 would have significantly increased his chances. Not only just to survive, but to turn the table on his attackers.
By the way, Mitsu upped his Ki-61 score to 28 kills with two deaths. So, he stands at 14 to 1.:eek:
My best,
Widewing
-
205,La5, Yak9U,Ki61 ... all understimated and yet they are murderous against almost any other AC.
I sweat a lot more when I see these 3 planes in the air.
-
Leviathn vs Mitsu
There can be only one!!!
-
Sheesh,
Widewing, you just had to let the cat out of the bag! I love the Ki-61. Also, like you said, it is very similar to the 205 in performance, only the Ki-61 has much better viz and both planes have the coolest paint schemes in AH, IMHO :) . My favorite ride is still a D-Hog, once you have E in it, there isn't any excuse for being shot down, other then you screwed up (I do that alot). I like the Ki-61's visibility though, for the same reason I like the D-Hogs. You get good viz low on either side of the cowling with excellent forward view which is great for tracking deflection shots.
I also don't know why people think the guns on both planes aren't any good, as they both have pairs of 20mm's and the 205 carries a good amount of ammo for it's cannons.
Glad to see you are finally flying AH Widewing. I can't wait for you to try the P-38. It's another one of those planes that if you know it's good points, it's an incredibly deadly airplane. Speaking of which, were you ever able to uncover some internal shots of the bombadier area in the droop snoot version?
-
Hell ! I been hunting em, but I can't even FIND one to kill :p
-
Leviathn vs Mitsu
There can be only one!!!
Mitsu sucks bellybutton 1v1, just like Fester does. MA score doesn't mean jack toejam.
Lev would own mitsu so hard you couldn't even understand.
You want a good jap pilot? Try Hanzo or Tukiyo, atleast they have the balls to mix it up.
-
Originally posted by Vermillion
Hell ! I been hunting em, but I can't even FIND one to kill :p
LOL! You mean try to kill, right? So far, if I want to see another Tony, I have to watch my own shadow.
I had great fun with it tonight. Although it didn't start out well. I was vulched twice just trying to get off the runway. I was so damned angry, I manned an ack and killed all three of the guys who were vulching the field. :p That was very satisfying. But, where the hell were my Rookmates?? It doesn't say much for teamwork and organization when you have to clear the sky above your own field, just to take off.:mad: Nonetheless, I'm still maintaining about a 4:1 kill to death ratio, despite engaging in high risk stuff, like attacking PTs and trying to take off while the field is capped. I even did some furballin' just for the hell of it. I had two really good one on ones. The first one was a epic struggle between me with my C.205, and some guy who calls himself BDBAD. He was in an La-7, and I love to tackle those. He went vertical, and having good speed, I followed and the fun began. Up, down and finally in an ever tightening Lufberry. We started out at opposite sides of the circle. But, as speeds came down, I began to reel in the Lavochkin. When my speed hit 190, I added some flaps. Realizing that he was losing ground, BDBAD, breaks away and trys to extend. He gets out about 1.6k, then half-loops, trying for a HOH. Well, I've got pretty good guns too. So, as he rushes in, I slip to the left and open fire. He flashes past, his mangled La-7 then fluttering to the ground.
Later, I do it again with a Yak-9U. This time, the pilot loses sight of me for a second or two. It cost him. I shot him out of a chandelle with an 80 degree deflection shot. That Tony has very lethal guns.
Yes sir, the Ki-61 is an excellent machine.
My best,
Widewing
-
I already fought with Lev's Spit5 in Ki-61 a while ago.
Leviathn is an excellent pilot. I really respect him.
Nath is really poor though.
------------
Mitsu
Stab./JG1 "Oesau" (http://www.dd.iij4u.or.jp/~nobo/jg1/)
"Let me fly Tony, it's an Axis plane!"
-
Originally posted by Mitsu
I already fought with Lev's Spit5 in Ki-61 a while ago.
Leviathn is an excellent pilot. I really respect him.
Nath is really poor though.
[/B]
Thanks for the kind words, Mitsu. I do feel you're misjudging Nath. I really respect his abilities in any plane in AH. I can honestly say that the very best fights I've ever had in any flight sim have been against Nath, and he's also been one of the best wingmen I've ever had the privilege of flying with.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
I know, Leviathn.
But I'm not talking about his combat skill...
------------
Mitsu
Stab./JG1 "Oesau" (http://www.dd.iij4u.or.jp/~nobo/jg1/)
"Let me fly Tony, it's an Axis plane!"
-
Middle class, I may have joked about being a homeless person that uses other people's computers at night time but I can assure you this isn't true my good Nipponese friend. I am not poor.
-
Ok, I've been misjudging you. you may be funny. *grin*
Let's duel with me after you bought rudder.
I will win. :D
P.S
I don't play final fantasy. :)
------------
Mitsu
Stab./JG1 "Oesau" (http://www.dd.iij4u.or.jp/~nobo/jg1/)
"Let me fly Tony, it's an Axis plane!"