Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Karnak on February 05, 2002, 02:08:37 AM
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I was thinking of the future BoB setup and I realized that the Spitfire Mk Ia should be perked. I think that 1 or 2 perk points would be about right.
The reasoning behind this is to press the RAF players into the historically more numerous Hurricane Mk Is. I believe that 1 or 2 perk points might get something resembling the 2 to 1 Hurri to Spit ratio.
The most popular German aircraft is sure to be the Bf109E-4 which is their best fighter, but historically it was also their most common. Therefore there is no need, reason or desire to perk the Bf109E-4 in order to press the Luftwaffe players into the Bf110C-4s. The Bf110C-4s should be adequately represented by the Luftwaffe players who voluntarily fly it.
What dou you guys, most importantly the CT Staff, think of the idea?
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Kinda agree, and disagree too, Karnak.
Setting it up that way leaves no incentive to fly the 110, which turned out to need fighter escort itself.
Leave the Hurricane and 110 unperked so people WILL fly them til they get perks built up.
Perk the 109F4 at 1 or 2, same as the Spit. The F4 is gonna hold a good speed advantage if they are modeled close to anything I ever read about the BoB. No need to stack the deck in favor of the LW or the RAF. If you perk one, perk it's historical adversary too.
Just my opinion tho........:)
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I mostly agree with you, Karnak
Although I can see eddiek's concern about lack of Me110 usage, I think It's the only jabo Axis have. I think It will be more survivable than Ju88, definitely more than He-111 (if we ever have it ;)), so I think it will be used in this role.
If Spit Ia is used, 109F should be perked. Not Emil, IMO.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Oops, Karnak, my bad....:(
I misread your post, forgot we are getting the 109E-4. Still, perking one without perking the other..............
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"I was thinking of the future BoB setup and I realized that the Spitfire Mk Ia should be perked. I think that 1 or 2 perk points would be about right. "
Which would guarentee I wouldn't set foot in there.
What is it with you guys and Spits?
Why are you so obsessed with what *other* people are flying?
Spit V's perked at the same rate as G-10's? And now even the Spit 1a to be perked?
The LW get to choose what plane they fly, but the RAF have to be forced to fly what *you* think they should?
You're pathetic, wearysome and boring.
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Seeker, this is the CT, not the MA. planes are perked here not just based on their performance, but also based on their historical usage values. In the BoB, Hurricanes were more common than Spitfires, and did more than Spits supposedly. The Spitfire just got all the glory. (this is general opinion if I'm not mistaken)
Now don't you start bringing out the Luftwhiner label for me. In a BoB setup, I'm flying RAF unless the numbers are just so skewed that I have to fly Axis. I love Spitfires, and dang it, I want that Mk 1A more than any other European theater plane we don't have (ok, maybe a the LF version of the Spit V with the C wing so I can choose which armament I want between 8 brownings, 4 brownings/ 2 hispanos, or 4 hispanos!). However, I realize the importance of the Hurri Ia in the BoB and would not object to a 1-2 point perk on the Spitfire 1a in this setup.
The Spit I, Spit V and Spit IX have no business being perked in the Main Arena. This, however, is not the MA, this is the CT and more specifically a setup for the Battle of Britain. The Hurricane was the most used plane in that conflict, not the Spitfire. You leave the Spit I unperked and you'll see a 90% ratio of Spits in the setup once it goes live. Ya don't believe me, just look at the current CT and MA. Can't go anywhere without seeing Spitfires.
If anything a compromise. Spits perked for the first half of the BoB "tour" then unperked for the second half.
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Okay, perk the Spit, make the Hurricane the main fighter you see for a while.
How is it gonna fare unless the LW has to put Ju-88's up? Against the 109, it is gonna be toast. That was proven in RL. The Hurricanes were used against the bombers, the Spitfires were tasked with engaging the 109/110 escorts.
No LW fliers are going to like being told they have to fly bombers because they were so prominent in the BoB, but to make it fair, that's what it is gonna take if you want to recreate a BoB atmosphere.
Dig out your history books and see what the ratio of 109/110's to bombers was for a typical raid, then make sure you use the same ratio in the BoB setup. Sounds extreme, right?
I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, I can see the merits of Karnak's proposal. I just try to look at the overall picture, and when you lean toward the historical mix on one side and not the other, you kinda give the limited side a screwing over.
I hope the BoB is set up with daily objectives, much like the others had.
Just my thoughts...........:)
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I agree Karnak, only I'd perk them for more. I'd put the spit at about 10 points and the 109 at 7 or 8 points. It's too easy to go and get 2 perkies, heck I got 10 in the CT in about 30 min the other night.
Ofcouse we need the planes to perk em :D
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I can certainly see both sides of the issue here. I take exception to the comment that the Hurricane would be "toast against the 109." As I recall, Hurricanes accounted for their fair share of Emils during the BoB. While I have read accounts that indicate the preferred tasking was for Spits to engage the 109's while the Hurricanes took on the bombers, Fighter Command rarely had the luxury of such fine control over the air battle. They scrambled what they had, when they had too. Radar was not adept at telling fighters apart from bombers (and still isn't for that matter) in any event. While the Emil does have a marginal edge on the Hurricane, it is nonetheless it's contemporary. Hurricanes acquited themselves well despite the performce difference.
Regarding perks, I could see the possiblity of perking the Spit by 1 point, as a mean of preserving the historical flavor of the set up. As for how to induce the German side to put up Ju88's (oh, if only we had a few more early war rides), the victory conditions can be set up to pretty much guarantee that the LW won't win without them.
At one point, you'd only need one ride in a Hurri to earn a Spit. Take care of that Spit, and you could conceivably never need another Hurri ride the rest of the tour. Surely even the most die-hard Spit-dweeb (and I mean that in the nicest possible way:)), would not find one or two sorties too onerous to stand, in order to fly the Spit against it's historical nemesis.
My main concern is that even with the Spit-I, Hurri-I, 109E, and Ju88, we're still short some critical aircraft to make a good two-sided set up. An RAF Boston or Blenheim for the Brits and a Ju87 for the Germans would help alot to put together a well rounded CT. An He111 would also be great. Ah, well...in time, I suppose.
Sabre
CT Team
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a wonder if any option to perking the spit would be to limit it to a few non-frontline bases.
As Udie said 1 or 2 perks are easy to get and with exception or the first day eventual spits will drown out the hurris.
I think the bob would be better suited for a scenario and/or tod.
As for a ct setup even with perking it would be to difficult to get a lot folks in there while holding some semblence of "historical immersion".
There could be no field capture. The lw would have a much greater advantage and most likely a larger % of numbers then existed in real life because it would be 1 big freie jagd with very little ju88s/ju87s/he111s.
So imho a bob setup that perks nothing would be the best way to keep the arena populated.
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Guys, this isn't a scenario, it's a basic Axis v. Allies arena IMO. Setup a planeset and let people fly what they wish. The more you restrict it, the less people are going to fly there IMO. Folks want interesting Axis V. Allies combat, not a completely historical re-enactment... that's what Scenarios are for. Don't get too anal over how many Spits vs. Hurris or 109's vs. 190's or whatever. Leave that for the scenarios.
I can understand perking higher performing versions of the same plane, but I think it's wrong to make it cost perks to fly even the lowest performing version of a basic plane like the Spit. Yep I know it's only a couple of points, but that doesn't matter. When Joe User decides to try out the CT for the first time and can't fly a Spit 1a, he's just gonna log most likely, and that's bad. If you want more folks to fly the Hurri, simply make sure there is something good to spend perk points on and make the Hurri the best way to get them. Simple. Positive re-inforcement will make people happy, simply trying to limit them into flying what you want them too will just piss 'em off and they'll leave.
Pick a decent (as large as possible) representative planeset in an Axis v. Allies setup and let folks choose what they wish to fly. Don't get all wound about how many spits there were vs. Hurris, we are not running a scenatio. I think most folks would be happy just being able to fly Allied plane vs. Axis plane... I know I will be. If you find you must do something to try and keep one model from dominating the arena then simply offer some kind of incentive to fly something different. That makes a whole lot more sense to me. If that doesn't work, then you can talk about something more punitive I guess, but I wouldn't try that first.
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Nifty, I'm well aware it's the CT.
Eddiek sums it up nicely.
AH *finaly* gets some BoB action after what, three years? and these dillweeds are moist at the oppertunity to limit the Spit with absolutly no regard to limiting the LW.
Christ, half the time they're trying to sneak in a later 109 on the grounds that the "real" E model would be MA dead meat and limit scenario choices. And the Spit 1a would be....????
It's absurd how much heat this subject generates, and I for one had hoped that people would be able to fly Spits in the BoB AT LEAST without suffering the denigrations of the emphaticaly hostile AH culture to Spit drivers.
What the hell. It's your arena, piss it up as much as you want. Target Korea and even WWIIOL is looking more and more attractive these days. It may not have the flight model, but it doesn't have this whining anti- spit culture either.
Have it your way, here's one Spit driver you won't have to face.
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Originally posted by Seeker
Have it your way, here's one Spit driver you won't have to face.
Well let me be the first or 2nd to say, good. How about some constructive ideas with out all the insults? The guys are trying to figure out how to ballance the planes to match what was flown in the BoB. There's no conspiracy to take you're spit away from you. People in this very thread have suggested perking the 109e to get more 110's up, me included.
Do you have any ideas? Or would you rather call me a dillweed? If no ideas, please go away and let us talk about this set up. I personally have been waiting for this for 3 yrs now....
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Good feedback all. I can see that there are valid points on both sides of the issue.
Udie,
10+ points might be appropriate if the Spitfire MkIa was a "just entering squadron service, but only 50 were used" aircraft. The intent of my idea wasn't to eliminate the Spit, but get a better mix of Hurris to Spits.
Seeker,
I'm a "Luftwhiner"? Please tell MANDOBLE, Wotan, Urchin and Pongo 'cause they've all accused me of being a "Spitdweeb". Luftwhiner and Spitdweeb at once. My my.
Actually the Spitfire is my favorite fighter and the Spitfire F.Mk XIVc is my favorite WWII aircraft.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Udie,
10+ points might be appropriate if the Spitfire MkIa was a "just entering squadron service, but only 50 were used" aircraft. The intent of my idea wasn't to eliminate the Spit, but get a better mix of Hurris to Spits.
Yeah 10 may be a bit too much. Maybe something like 6/4 spit1a/109e or even just 5 or 6 or each of the 2. The main reason I put such a high number is because of the 22 point 262 now :) It took me a couple of hours to earn the points which led to a wonderful 5 kill 1.5 hour 262 flight that ended when I got stupid and HO'd a typhoon. LOL back down to like 5 perkies now ;)
I have to say that after reading Leph's post I think I may agree with him that the BoB should be a senario type thing. They always worked well with the Saturday night Weekend Warrior deals back in WB 1.11 with a progressive plane set (first hour no spits at all :) ) The axis vs. allies all planes available has brought the most numbers in so far. I think the most important thing to get the numbers up is to come up with a good set up and leave it there for a while. Consistency is the key I think. Then once we get people hooked then start chaning settings to see what they think.
Still want to BoB though :)
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Originally posted by Seeker
I for one had hoped that people would be able to fly Spits in the BoB AT LEAST without suffering the denigrations of the emphaticaly hostile AH culture to Spit drivers.
Heh heh. Must be the end of an ugly day in Denmark. Lighten up, Seeker, we were emphatically hostile to Spitdweebs in AW, too. IN FACT, I think we were MORE hostile. Learn to fly a real plane, you'll get more respect.
Having said that, Seeker and Lephturn have an excellent point, seems to me. This isn't a scenario. Experience teaches us that there will often be only a few fliers in CT at a given time. The proportion of Hurricanes, Spits or Defiants they're flying really won't matter under most conditions. OTOH, one of them might want to be Sailor Malan, Douglas Bader, or (shiver) Galland or Moelders. Why discourage that?
In practice it will no doubt be Spits v. 109s - which, after all, is how most people think of BoB. So what? Those of us who are more eccentric will fly the Hurris and Zerstorers. It will work out just fine.
- oldman
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The more limited the plane choices, the smaller the number of participants there will be. I don't think a "BoB" really has enough plane choices to draw a reasonable number of folks at this point. We'll see though, it's certainly worth trying for a week once we get the aircraft. Shame we didn't have some CV bound Wildcats to throw in there or something. :)
Bottom line for me is that a general BoB setup is very limited in plane choices as it is. Trying to further limit the choices is just silly and will lead to nobody flying there IMO. The point is NOT to re-create the BoB in the CT, it's to generally get Axis vs. Allied fights around a specific time period IMO.
In fact, I think it would be better to do "1942" or something instead of just a straight BoB. Throw in ALL the different early war craft we have including PAC stuff, and go to it. Now THAT sounds like fun... but I want a Wildcat and a P40 for that one. :)
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for the ct we need to be much more inclusive then say a scenario or tod.
While a bob set up would be fun for the ct I dont think limiting folks to just hurris will pack umm in so I would be all for no perk planes.
The whole bob thing ingeneral my be to limiting in its appeal.
I mean the lw will whoop up on some hurris :)
we wont have a some fat arse or the okl to fek it up this time :)
Anyway Karnak I dont think I ever specifically said "Karnak your a Spitdweeb"
I have said "spitdweeb" as a generalization just as I say "runstang" but its all in fun :)
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LOL! Karnaks a Spit Dweeb! LOL!
Nothing constructive to add here, other than I'm surprised this particular camp was a BoB attempt. Thought it was Allied vs LW thingy.
seeker.. come fly a spit. I promise to not complain.
Really.
;)
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If I wanted a perked Emil, I could go play WWIIOL and pound nails through my...
yeah... um...
All the allies will fly spits, we already know this, whether they are perked or not, so there is no point in perking anything, it'll just make for more cryin', which won't be considered cryin', because everyone knows that only guys who fly german planes cry. :rolleyes:
oh, I forgot... boo hoo ;)
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S! Seeker
There is a valid point in arguing for a perked Spit I in a BoB setup. (by the way, ain`t gonna be NO 109F4`s there ;) )
The point I want to make is that the tone of your comments is not really conducive to a rational calm discussion.
I think we should all try to make this forum a pleasant one where personal insults are absent. (humour is ok ;) )
Either we are going to limit the fields available for Spit I`s or we are going to very slightly perk them.
There was a 2-1 ratio of Hurri I`s to Spit I`s during BoB.
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I have thought about this some more and concluded that it would only work if the Spit, Bf109 and Bf110 were all perked.
Freebies would be the Hurri for the RAF and all of the bombers (Ju88 right now) for the Luftwaffe. The perk system would have to be setup so that the Luftwaffe perk points were a global pool, fighters and bomber drawing out of the same perk point total.
That would push the RAF fliers into Hurris and the Luftwaffe fliers into bombers.
Without that balance perking the Spit would give the RAF too much of a disadvantage.
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If I recall right, the British had like 19 full squadrons of Spitfires at the outbreak of BoB. And they did a better job at keeping those numbers, than they did at keeping enough pilots.
So, it won't be perked for rarity or historical reasons.
That just leaves game balance, and I can see the point, who would pick a Hurricane, if the Spitfire was available everywhere?
For the same sake, who would pick a 110, if 109 is available everywhere....
Well, maybe it would be the best to limit the accessibility to fewer fields, yeah, I'd vote for that...
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lol
Don't worry about Seeker. He's a serial whinger of the highest order with a perchant for elaborate conspiracy theories.
Oh, and be careful, because you might find yourself being labelled 'masonic' if you continue to disagree with his enlightened opinion. Although not here, he prefers to do it on some obscure, barely read newsgroup.
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LOL "Learn to fly a real plane, and you'll get more respect." Harsh words from the Oldman(who I never recall seeing flyin a Spit)! Hehehe.
Seriously tho. I don't mind the Spits much. Given the choice between having outrageously easy to fly full realism Spitfires or having some sort of an RR arena I'd take the Spits every time and twice on Sunday. And that's coming from a 109 guy!
The Spit was a dominant/impact player in RL and it obviously is in the flight sim world too. When I started flyin in AW I hung out in an arena where it seemed over 80% of the planes were either a Spit9 or a Ki-84. Know why? Because they were damned good planes that were easy to fly. I came here in March and I find a similar situation where there seems to be a high percentage of folks flyin either Spit9's or NiK2's(I shudder to think of an AH Ki-84). Prolly for similar reasons. Ya can't blame people for that. What with the massive influx of newer players in recent months--we see a lot more of em still. The newer guys kinda have to take one of them first just to survive! News flash--this is hard to do!
Me? I like the challenge of getting kills in a plane that makes me work a bit harder. That's my fun. So I fly the 109. Does that make me some sort of high-minded elitist? Sure hope not! I die way too much to be elite! Maybe it puts me closer to the "eccentric" bunch tho. Do I have less respect for the Spit drivers? Hell no! They pay their money to have fun playing the game same as me. More power to em. Even Seeker--who's spit has a pink tutu. : )
Drano
Originally posted by Oldman731
Heh heh. Must be the end of an ugly day in Denmark. Lighten up, Seeker, we were emphatically hostile to Spitdweebs in AW, too. IN FACT, I think we were MORE hostile. Learn to fly a real plane, you'll get more respect.
Having said that, Seeker and Lephturn have an excellent point, seems to me. This isn't a scenario. Experience teaches us that there will often be only a few fliers in CT at a given time. The proportion of Hurricanes, Spits or Defiants they're flying really won't matter under most conditions. OTOH, one of them might want to be Sailor Malan, Douglas Bader, or (shiver) Galland or Moelders. Why discourage that?
In practice it will no doubt be Spits v. 109s - which, after all, is how most people think of BoB. So what? Those of us who are more eccentric will fly the Hurris and Zerstorers. It will work out just fine.
- oldman
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I can't wait to try the ME-110 coming in 1.09 :D
Westy
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I think we will have some kick bellybutton TOD nights when the BOB terrain and planeset is here.
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I just want to chime in and say I see nothing wrong with Karnak polling those who value the CT for what they may want in a BoB set up. It would be sad if all we saw were Spits and 109s, but with the character of the typical CT player, I think people will take up the 110s and Hurris. After all, most of us are conscious to have even numbers on both Allied and Axis sides and I think the players will try to make the skies interesting by varying their rides.
I'll be honest...while reading this thread my 5-yr old son started bawling like a baby because his 7-yr old big sister had two water tatoos on her and he only had one and after reading Seekers' posts I am not really sure I can tell his age apart from my son's. It appears to me Seeker flies off the handle and makes desparaging remarks against Karnak polling for a consensus and against the CT in whole...as well as those who are honest and are sick of Spit after Spit after Spit in the MA. I do admit that inflection is not available with the written word so what I got from Seekers' posts may be wrong.
I actually dislike flying Axis aircraft but have done it quite often in the CT to make sure the sides are balanced; this, opposed to some who will only fly one side as well as just one TYPE of aircraft. I look forward to trying the Hurricane I out as well as hopping to the Axis side and trying the 110 (and JU87 if it's the secret plane to be added.) I think the planes used will work themselves out without forcing perk costs but I'm also not opposed to perking the Spit two points either. I sit on the fence on this one.
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Originally posted by Steven
I'll be honest...while reading this thread my 5-yr old son started bawling like a baby because his 7-yr old big sister had two water tatoos on her and he only had one and after reading Seekers' posts I am not really sure I can tell his age apart from my son's.
We believe him to be somewhat older than your son. No one has ventured to visit Denmark to confirm this, however.
All funnin' aside, Seeker was one of AH's biggest proponents in the face of the AW crowd's initial hostility. We've known him for some years now; if he appears frustrated, it is almost certainly for good reason.
- oldman
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For what my two cents is worth, I have to agree with what Drano was saying...I'm one of those new players that has only a few days under his belt so far. And after reading around different pages most concur that the Spit9 is one of the easier planes to fly/learn in. So try and remember, its not all dweebs flying them, some people do so that they can learn as well.....
Granted, I'm just a moving target right now, but who knows, someday the roles may be reversed :)
And perked or non-perked Spits for BoB, I'm gonna fly whatever I can get off the ground...afterall, I can die just as easy in one plane as the next...But at least with the Spit, I can turn a few times before getting nailed.
Asmo
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Originally posted by Steven
I just want to chime in and say I see nothing wrong with Karnak polling those who value the CT for what they may want in a BoB set up.
I think this is the wrong approach. I think we should be polling the General newsgroup to see what the "regular" folks would be interested in flying in the CT. Otherwise we just cater to the vocal minority who wants uber-realism (read high difficulty), but we've already seen that those folks don't account for more than about 10-20 per night.
This isn't a scenario... so don't try to make the #'s look right. I don't think you should. If we want people to actualyl fly this thing in decent numbers, you have to make their favourite planes available to them to try out against their LW opposition. Even perked one point, or only available from rear bases, will cause folks to just log out and go the the MA instead IMHO.
The more limits you place on the CT, especially in regards to the planeset, the fewer people there will be flying there I think.
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you know what? The thing im most worried about is whether the spit 1a has hispanos?
this is how i see the BOB setup going if the spit hasnt got cannon which i beleive it didnt(not sure) and im pretty sure the hurricane also only used 303s in the BoB, We will see the spitfires trying their usual turn and HO tactics vs cannon armed me109E4s and bf110C4s and they are going to lose the majority of them.
We do not behave like the real pilots im afraid.Most german planes would attack dive away and return home relying on superior numbers to beat the british down who flew in crazy small formations of @12 aircraft vs sometimes 70+ 109s!! The RAF continued to use tactics which were pretty crazy.
In AH 12 fighters matched up against 50+ would be an absolute hoot :)
To start enforcing perks on the spits will be a mistake i think.
We can only simulate the fighting in CT and no matter how much some of us, me included, want to fly just like 'they' did it just aint gonna happen with most flying alone and doing their own thing.
What WOULD be cool would be BOB for a week then on a given date and time(last day before map change?) we would have one huge battle where we can spend our perks!! Once you ran out of perks you are out of the battle :D
could be a lot of fun and a chance to impose limits of usage on those planes that were more rare.
e.g. if during a week in CT the average player earns 20-30 perks start the battle with hurricanes at 3 perks and spits at 7 and start it.The players could choose more 'lives' with the hurricane or less lives and more performance with the hurricane.
Better still before each battle reset perks to 30 for each player and see if we can have a real ATTRITION WAR :D
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hazed-,
The Spitfire MkIa is armed with 8 .303s.
There were about 30 Spitfire MkIbs built and those had 4 .303s and 2 Hispano MkI 20mm cannon, but the cannon suffered a horrible jam rate and the fighters were taken out of service.
I would be truely shocked and disappointed if HTC gives the MkIb, or even the option for the MkIb's armament.
To be a BoB Spitfire it must have 8 .303s as its armament and suffer negative G induced engine fuel starvation.
The same goes for the Hurrican MkI.
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I agree no cannon armed Spit Ib.
However, I would like to see the 109E1, with it's 4 MGs and no cannon, which served extensively during the BoB.
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ya know, everything else equal, you take away the Brits superior dar, which CT does as both are set equal and the brits stolen decoder ring (Enigma machine) they used in WW2 which gave them the same info as top GE generals got in real time, the RL BOB would have ended differently. Those two items gave the Brits the upperhand without which history would have been changed...
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Lephturn,
That's pretty much what I meant. Anyone who would like to participate here. However, this should never be an MA because we already have one and we must accept that there will be times when someone can't find his favorite ride in here. But I see nothing wrong with polling the masses to see what they want in here understanding this isn't the MA.
To all: I logged into the CT with a squadmate last night and once again the LW side was hurting for numbers. I actually don't really enjoy flying the Axis aircraft and it strikes me that the majority of my time I spend flying LW or Axis in the CT. (Though my scores show much better when I fly Allied.) I'm not sure I should have contributed to the desparity of numbers in the CT or I did the right thing just leaving for the MA.
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Actually, the BoB was going well to Goering's plans. The idea was to breakdown Fighter Command so that the Germans would have complete air superiority for operation Sea Lion. The LW was hitting airfields and radar stations heavily every day, and taking out as many Spits and Hurris in the air as was possible. One day (in August i think, I don't feel like looking it up) one of the German crews was off target and dropped on or near London. This incensed Churchill, who ordered a strike on Berlin. Wellingtons took off within 24 hours (I think?) and dropped on Berlin. Hitler commanded Goering to shift the focus from Fighter Command to London. With the pressure off of the RAF's fields, they were able to somewhat regroup (mentally, if not physically). After intense bombing of London, Goering sent over a huge force, which was matched by Dowding basically throwing everything Fighter Command had left. This seemed to break the resolve of the LW pilots, as the winter was fast approaching and they had not achieved air superiority. Sea Lion was postponed, and the BoB was over (even tho London was still bombed for some time.) Radar helped at the onset, but at one point, was the entire southern network of radar stations destroyed? (asking, cuz I don't remember exactly).
ya did the right thing Puke. I had absolutely no desire to fly a 109 or 190 last night. 95% of the time, I'd balance the numbers. Last night, I wanted to fly a Pony. (that in itself should tell you something was wrong with me!)
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Only 3 radar stations were out of action for any significant length of time, and the gaps in the radar coverage were made good by neighbouring stations and mobile units.
The widespread belief is that the Germans were on the brink of destroying the RAF before they switched to London, and that they switched to London on Hitlers orders. That isn't really true.
Goering and Kesselring had both wanted to attack London for some time, believing they could draw the RAF into an all out defence of the capital, and destroy the British fighters in a few large battles. Hitler merely released them to carry out this plan.
Much is made of the unsustainable losses the RAF was suffering at the end of August and begining of September, during the Luftwaffe's attack on their airfields.
The fact is, the Luftwaffe was still losing as many fighter pilots as the British, and training fewer replacements.
The RAF began the BoB with huge reserves, over 110% of front line strength in reserve, and was producing fighters at more than twice the rate of Germany. RAF reserves shrank during the Battle, but from late July on, there were never less than 1000 Hurricanes and Spitfires available.
The RAF also began with many pilots in reserve, a total of around 1300 pilots, compared to around 1000 for the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe began the Battle with almost no reserves, and aircraft production lagged so badly front line fighter strength declined throughout the battle. From a high of nearly 1000 109s at the start, by early September the Luftwaffe had around 700 109s operational.
So, the figures for early September were RAF: 1100 Hurris and Spits, 1300 pilots.
Luftwaffe: 700 109s, similar number of pilots.
The Luftwaffe put on an all out effort in the last week of August, flying 3900 109 sorties, sompared to the previous high in a week of 3000. By the first week of September, serviceability had dropped to around 75%, and the number of 109 sorties declined
to 3200.
The following week they switched to attacks on London, and sorties went down much futher.
The RAF in the same period maintained a sortie rate of 5000 per week, and actually improved serviceability rates during the period, from 90 to 92%.
The Luftwaffe were on the verge of winning the battle much the same as a marathon runner who puts on a sprint is on the verge of winning his race. If he can keep up the sprint for 10 miles he will win, but of course he can't sprint for that long.
and the brits stolen decoder ring (Enigma machine) they used in WW2 which gave them the same info as top GE generals got in real time, the RL BOB would have ended differently. Those two items gave the Brits the upperhand without which history would have been changed...
Radar was vital, but Enigma intercepts played verry little part in the BoB. Most German traffic from airfields went by landline, not radio, so couldn't be picked up anyway, and what little was sent by radio and decrypted played no real part.
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I remember reading about a wargame run at Sandhurst or Westpoint about the German invasion of Britain.
The idea was that the Luftwaffe did beat down the RAF and secured control of the air for the invasion.
The problems the Germans ran into were that Fighter Command pulled back and held its remaining forces ready for a final effort to defend Britain. The Germans invaded and the the Royal Navy, taking some losses, slammed the door shut while being covered by the remainder of RAF Fighter Command. The German forces simply were not able to break through the might od the Royal Navy to supply and reinforce the initial invasion force. and after 1-2 months the British were inventorying their new equipment that had "Made in Germany" labels.
The Germans simply weren't prepared or equipped for a cross Channel invasion was the conclusion.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The Germans simply weren't prepared or equipped for a cross Channel invasion was the conclusion.
Agreed. People who think the Germans could have conquered England through invasion are fantasizing.
- oldman
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I believe Operation Barbarossa was the biggest nail in the Axis coffin. The two fronted war was impossible.
Early in the war the U-boats were taking a huge toll on shipping. GB was feeling the pinch. Thank the Lord Hitler was so foolish as to think he could conquer Russia and the United Kingdom.