Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: brady on February 06, 2002, 07:56:32 PM
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The next CT set up will be starting on the 9th of Febuary and will be, The Channel 1944, we will have a primarly 1944 plane set with some planes from earlier in the war to add some depth to the set. The set up will use the Europe map and have the Germans in France and the Alies in England, full field capture will be enabled. The Germans will have the B 17 as a substitute for the He 177 and the Spit 9 and Me 109G10 will be perked at 1 PP each. This set up should be a lot of fun do to the short distances between several of the fields along the channel.
Axis:
AR 234(15 perks)
Bf 109 (all models) G10 perked at 1pp
C 47(JU 52)
FW 190's(all models)
JU 88A4
Ostwind
M-3
M-8
Panzer
PT boat
B 17G(replacement for He 177, will add some balence in this area)
Me 262(25 perks)
Allied:
B 17G
B 26B
C 47
M 16
M 3
M 8
Panzer
P 38
P 51D & B
P 47(all models)
Pt boat
Spit V
Spit IX ( 1 perk point)
Typhoon
Tempest (15 perks)
Mosquito Mk VI
Lancaster ( 3 perk points)
Huricane IIc
(http://bradys5.50megs.com/images/this-oneaaa.jpg)
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Sounds good
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Looks good. Why perk the G10 and not the Dora, the Spit IX and not the P51D?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Why perk the Spit IX and not the P51D?
Because LW flyers have more trouble fighting a spit IX than a P-51:cool: :D
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WHAT! No Hellcats or at least Corsairs? Guys hadn't you ever heard of the ROYAL NAVY??? They had bases all over England also.
Come on Brady and the CT crew! You are killing us! We want to come into the CT and fly to help boost the numbers - all we ask is for the Navy planes to be available.
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Hmmph.
The Spitfire MkIX was the main RAF fighter of 1944, and not this lousy F.Mk IX that we have but the good LF.Mk IX. The Mk Vb was certainly no longer used against enemy fighters, the Mk Vs had been modified to LF.Mk Vs and were used for ground strikes.
Perking the Mk IX. :rolleyes: Should perk all of the Fw190s to even things out. ;)
And giving them an unperked B-17G to represent the almost non-existant He177 while the very existant and very vulnerable Lancaster is perked? :eek:
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Correct me if im wrong, but also, didnt the He-177 have a much greater payload than the B-17? I believe the He 177 could carry up to 13,200 lbs of bombs internally, aswell as standoff rockets in the wings.... (this plane would make a good addition to AH for the LW) Would be more accurate to give the LW a Lanc and maybe perk it too? Heck dont even bother perking it :) LW prolly wont fly it anyway
Anyway, looks like a good setup!
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He177 could carry missiles controlled by the bombing officer, not sure it could carry 13,000 lbs though, got any more information about that Kronos? :)
The missiles Fritz X beind one of them, weighed (the Fritz X) nearly 1500Kg with a Warhead of about 300kg (I think, not sure about the warhead).
Quite many combat reports using these missiles, from He177, DO219's and the Ju 290 maritme recon/bomb plane. (Ju299 heavly armed for defence and quite fast). Quite many ships were sunk or heavily dammaged by this new kind of weapon.
Karnak, HE177 was far from almost non existant, it existed very much, problem was though, that the DB610 engines (good engines, badly installed) caught fire VERY often, and forced the plane to RTB or the crew to bail out. However, the plane saw success, they flew night mission over Britain and rushia, over GB they came in at 20k or so, dropped load then dove back to their base, near impossible to catch them. Over rushia they (amongst other things) destroyed many B17's on the ground during one night raid.
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this is HE 177 a-5 model
4 engine bomber
number built 1,146
service date entry 1942
range 3417miles
max speed 303 mph
service ceiling 26K
Armaments : combinations of 20mm mg 151 cannon and 5x7.92mm mg 81/131 MGS in the nose, dorsal, ventral gondola and tail positions up to 13,200lbs of bombs internally, 2x Hs293A or FX 1400 stand-off missiles under the wings.
And Wilbuz u are correct, it was 2 engines to a nacelle, which promoted under its design in-flight fires, oil leaks, etc due to the design complexities. Although in service in 1942, apparently it had so many difficulties that it wasn't until 1944 that they were used with any effectiveness. Again, would be nice to actually see this aircraft in AH.
source is from aircraft of ww2, a visual encyclopedia
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Thanks, engines used was the (twin as you said) DB610, don't have mny book here but if I don't remember wrong, they were actually 2 DB603's put together, HP generated somewhere around 2,500-3000 depending on what version.
Allso, the armement of the A5 was 20mm like you said, but it had 13mm aswell, more 13mm then 7.9mm I THINK.
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of the fritz X missile, it had a weight of about 1650kg with the warhead weighing about 1400kg.
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looks good, thx CT crew
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If HTC ever modelled the FritzX or other Axis guided munitions I'd hope they would model the US 'BAT' other radio controlled munitions too!
Parity! Parity PARITY! :)
- Westy
(which is why we need the Meteor III andf at least TWO heavy Axis bombers)
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Kronos
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this is HE 177 a-5 model
4 engine bomber
number built 1,146
service date entry 1942
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Calling it a 4-engine bomber is a little misleading.
Two airscrews, two powerplants. (although each powerplant *was* made of two DB605 engines welded together) He177B was the true 4-engined variant, but it never got beyond prototype stage.
And also, over 1000 may have been built, but I read no more than 200 entered service. (Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WWII)
'What use is the best aircraft in the world if it can't stop falling apart? What use is the best racehorse if it displays the best speed over 200 yards and drops dead after 300!' -Erhard Milch
anRky
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Something I collected several months ago:
He 177A-5/R2
Dimensions:
- length: 22.0 m.
- height: 6.4 m.
- wingspan: 31.44 m.
Weight:
- empty: 16800 kg
- normal loaded: 27225 kg
- max. loaded: 31000 kg
Powerplant:
2xDaimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1 24 cylinders in v-inverted
- take-off power: 2x2950 hp
- power @ 2100 m: 2x3100 hp
Speed (27225 kg weight):
- max @ sea level: 395 km/h
- max @ 6000 m: 485 km/h; 435 km/h if loaded up to 31000 kg of weight
- cruise @ 6000: 415 km/h
Initial climb rate:
260 m/min (:D)
Climb times:
- to 3000 m., 10 minutes
- to 6000 m., 39 minutes
Range (without bombs, bombs bay replaced by fuel tanks):
- 2xHs 293 guided missiles: 5500 km
- 2xSD 1400 X "Frizt-X" guided bombs: 5000 km
Ceiling: 8000 m.
Defensive armament:
1xMG 81J 7.92 mm with 1000 rounds in the forward of cockpit and manually operated, 1xMG 151/20 20mm cannon with 300 rounds in the forward part of ventral gondola, 2xMG 81J with 1000 round each in the rear part of ventral gondola (or a single MG 131 with 1000 rounds), 2xMG 131 13 mm in forward dorsal turret with 1000 rounds each operated electrically by a remote position, 1xMG 131 with 1000 rounds in rear dorsal turret, 1xMG 151/20 with 800 rounds in tail and manually operated.
Bomb load:
- max. internal: 6000 kg. of bombs
- usual load: 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg or 2x500 kg in bombs bay + 2xLMA III sea mines, 2xLT-50 torpedoes, 2xHs 293 guided missil or 2xSD 1400 X "Frizt-X" guided bomb in external racks.
Date of deploy to operative units:
February 1943
A-1/R1 Load
Bomb load:
- short distances (8802liter fuel): 48x50 kg, 12x250 kg, 6x500 kg or 4x1000 kg explosive bombs; 6x500 kg or 6x1000 kg armour-piercing bombs; 2x1000 kg + 2x1800 kg bombs or 2xLMA III sea mines + 2x1800 kg bombs
- medium distances: 32x50 kg, 8x250 kg, 4x500 kg or 4x1000 kg bombs
- long distances(12662liter fuel): 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg, 2x500 kg or 2x1000 kg bombs
*There are 4 fuselage tanks + 4 wing tanks.
*Each outer wing tank is 1120 liter in capacity.
*Each inner wing tank is 621 liter in capacity.
*The front 2 fuselage tanks are 1520 liter each(increasing to 3450l when bomb bay is blanked off).
*The rear 2 fuselage tanks are 1140 liter each.
So biggest possible fuel load is 12662 liter(which would give the 5500km range with missiles on the wings).
With the smaller fuselage tanks fitted total capacity is reduced to 8802 liter.
The DB DB 610 A-B, BR 0 u. 1 D.(Luft)T 3610 A-B, Motorenkarte, 1942,
shows the following min and max. values:
- start and emergency situation: 2800 rev/min.; 1,42 bar pressure: 960 l/hr
- low requirement, 2100 rev/min.; 1,0 bar pressure: 510 l/hr.
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Thanks Staga, have most of that info in my Luftwaffe book I think, some new things to me though such as the 6000kg load (GREAT!). Would DEFINATLY be the best choice for a heavy buff for the LW, although only 200 may have entered service, that is more then enough, don't come and say that 200 is a low nukber of airplanes in service please.
Btw Staga, EXELENT climb speed of it, 260 m/s ;) Almost like an SU27 :D
I'd exchange the s for a "min" though :)
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These will put you in the mood:
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0504.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1347.jpg)
Heres some specs I found here (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he177.html):
Origin: Ernst Heinkel AG
Sub Contractor: Arado Flugzeugwerke
Type: Six-Seat Heavy Bomber and Missile carrier
Models: A-0 to A-5
First Flight:
V-1: November 19, 1939
A-0: November 1941
Service Delivery:
A-1: March 1942
A-5: February 1943
Engine: 2 Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1
Thrust: 2,950lb
Note: Each engine comprised of two V12 liquid cooled engines geared to one propeller.
Dimensions:
Span: 31.44m (103 ft. 1¼ in.)
Length: 22m (72 ft. 2 in.)
Height: 6.4m (21 ft.)
Weights: (A-5)
Empty: 37,038lb. (16,800 kg)
Loaded: 68,343lb (31,000kg)
Performance:
Maximum (at 41,000lb.): 295mph (472km/h)
Initial Climb: 853 ft/min (260m/min)
Service Ceiling: 26,500 ft (7080m)
Range with Fritz or Hs 293 missle: 3,107 miles (5000km)
Armament: A-5/R2:
One 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose
Ammunition: 2000 rounds
One 20mm MG 151 manually aimed in forward ventral gondola
Ammunition: 300 rounds
Two 13mm MG 131 in remote front dorsal turret
Ammunition: 750 rounds per gun
One 13mm MG 131 in electric aft dorsal turret
Ammunition: 750 rounds
One 20mm MG 151 cannon in in tail position
Ammunition: 300 rounds
Bomb Load: A-5/R2:
Sixteen 110 lb. (50kg) SC 50, four 551 lb. (250-kg) SC 250 or two 1,102 lb. (500 kg) SC 500, or two LMA III parachute sea mines, LT 50 torpedos, or Hs 293 of FX 1400 missiles.
Production:
8 Prototypes
35 He 177A-0 (Mainly Arado built)
130 He 177A-1 (Arado built)
170 He 177A-3 (Heinkel Built)
826 He 177A-5
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Comments
Arguably the largest bomber built by the Germans, the He 177 suffered many flaws and turned into one of the Luftwaffe's biggest failures (when compare service use to the amount of resources invested.) A significant problem that plagued the program from the beginning was a ludicrous requirement that this extremely large aircraft be capable of dive bombing. This combined with the attempt to reduce drag by coupling the engines, while theoretically sound, proved to be impossible in practice for no aircraft in history had engines that would so readily burst into flame. 75% of the prototypes crashed and a good percentage of the 35 A-0 pre-production airframes were written off in crashed or in-flight fires.
About 700 served on the eastern front using 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting while a few brave aircrews ineffectually bombed England.
The He 177 proved to be such a big problem that Goering forbid Heinkel to develope a four engine version (though Heinkel did anyways, the result being the He 277).
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This 4*MG131 tail-turret would be almost as nice to have than one MG151/20mm. Only a prototype, HL131V.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/tail_turret.jpg)
btw This (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/he177_cockpit.jpg) is screenshot from M$ Flightsim He177 cockpit.
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Question is LW'ers, which would you rather want for game balancing, the B-17, or Lancaster?
Of course, its entirely up to brady or whoever is planning the event as to what they think would best be suited in this role. And I am not in anyway trying to step in. I will be there for this setup regardless, not only because I have found the MA boring lately, but I find that the CT setups are getting better and better, and this is no exception.
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Maybe one day...
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/he177/Typenblatt1.jpg)
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After much deliberation we have decided to unperk every thing except the:
Me 262 @ 25
Ar 234 @ 15
Tempest @ 7
I hope you all have as much fun with this set up as I will:)
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Wilbus,
Compared to the Lancaster and B-17G the He177 was almost non-existant. There were roughly 1000 He177s produced, and operations with them peaked at about 30 in a given mission. Compare that with the thousands of B-17s, B-24s, Lancs and Halibags that would be in the air in a given day.
The He177 had no measurable effect on the war. There simply weren't enough of them.
To imply that the He177 was more significant than the Lancaster is laughable, and by perking the Lancaster while giving a freebie B-17G to represent the He177 that is exactly what is implied.
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Why no ta152s ?
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Karnak, I said DON'T COMPARE it to other planes, 1000 is a big, huge number of planes made actually, and to say it was hardly in the war is WRONG. No, it didn't have any effect on the war, nothing would have considering Hitler was stupid enough (thank god) to start a war with rushia and then US.
The plane saw serice, more than enough to be added to AH and to be added unperked.
Last, I have not said ANYTHING about perking the Lancaster nor have I said anything about the HE177 being as significant as the lancaster! We get the B17, and I am happy about that, we will have something else then a 1941 plane, the B17 is in many ways like the He177, bit slower, better climb, less load and aboust same armement slightly weaker but can fire in all directions.
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i doudt you will see any dedicated lw pilots in anything but fighters.
A few ju88 raids maybe but no matter how many he177s there were they weren't used against targets in england or in the "channel".
The availability of a heavy buff to the axis wont stop or help stop the dedicated group of milkrunners. We need really short rebuild/repair times for structures and ack.
This will force several guys to work together to keep the the fields dead.
For the record I am opposed to field capture in ct.
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Hehe well as a KG200 member, it's nice to see we got our bomber the *Ahem* Dornier 200... ;)
(http://members.fortunecity.com/kg200/picb17.jpg)