Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rogwar on February 07, 2002, 03:42:14 PM
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Thursday February 7 1:25 PM ET
Man Tries to Enter Cockpit on Flight to Argentina
By Stephen Brown
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (Reuters) - An apparently drunken, unarmed Uruguayan passenger tried to force himself into the locked cockpit a United Airlines flight from Miami to Argentina on Thursday before pilots hit him with an ax and tied him up.
The 28-year-old man, said by Argentine authorities to have drunk whiskey before the flight, kicked down one panel of the cockpit door demanding to see the captain and got part of his body in before being overpowered by the crew and passengers.
The man, identified as Pablo Moreira, was arrested when the Boeing 777 carrying 142 passengers and 15 crew landed safely in Buenos Aires. But the incident alarmed other passengers and may raise new concerns about safety after the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (news - web sites).
Cockpit doors on big U.S. jetliners have been reinforced with metal bars since the September attacks, when suspected hijackers apparently gained entrance to the flight decks of four planes, two of them United jets.
Another passenger on United Airlines Flight 855, Jan Boyer, told CNN that the man had managed to break down part of the lower half of the door by ``kicking in a Kung Fu style.''
``The cockpit door is divided into two sections and the lower section actually opens up and isn't protected by the barriers that they had put in,'' said Boyer. ``He had actually inserted himself ... his torso into the cockpit.''
But the pilots inside ``used an ax that they have in the cockpit to basically hit him bluntly on the head. This led to a lot of blood all over the place,'' said Boyer.
The small panel on the cockpit door is designed to pop out in case of an aircraft pressurization emergency.
United Airlines' Chairman Jack Creighton commended the crew for ``quick action'' and said Moreira ``never gained full entry due to the reinforced cockpit door bar United has installed on all of its fleet.''
In Miami, FBI (news - web sites) spokeswoman Judy Orihuela said the plane left Miami around midnight and the incident occurred about five hours later over Brazil.
``The worst moment was when I heard the voice of the captain, who sounded desperate, asking for help,'' said one passenger at the airport, a 50-year-old Argentine woman who identified herself only as Lucia.
The Federal Aviation Administration (news - web sites) ordered the industry last month to install new cockpit doors to resist intrusion and certain gunfire and explosives on more than 6,000 commercial jets.
The government gave airlines 18 months to make the changes, which include mandatory locking devices only accessible to the pilots. The cockpit upgrades are expected to cost the industry at least $100 million.
Separately, U.S. aviation regulators have proposed new training guidelines to help flight crews, including flight attendants, deal with potential hijackers and unruly passengers.
The U.S. government also is considering a proposal to let cockpit crews carry stun-guns. Axes are kept in cockpits in case pilots have to evacuate in an emergency.
Jorge Reta, spokesman for the Argentine air force, said the man was being held in custody and ``feels sorry for what he did and admitted he had drunk whiskey before boarding the plane.''
The FBI said Moreira, identified as a bank employee, would be taken back to Miami and probably charged with ``interference with a flight crew.''
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They hit him with an AXE? Hahahaha.
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Yeah, I heard the F/O hit him with the crash axe but kind of smacked him with the flat side of it. I suggest the F/O be grounded for two weeks and made to undergo remedial training in "crash axe use against a hijacker."
Jeez, he had the guy sticking through the cockpit door near the floor. Hasn't the F/O ever chopped wood? One good swing to the back of the neck and there you go. End of problem; notice well served to other potential problem flyers.
Second, how do you like those REINFORCED cockpit doors? A drunk can get most of the way into the cockpit. Good thing he wasn't a sober "professional". Gives you a good idea of how tough the doors were BEFORE we reinforced them eh?
Madison Avenue security... sell the sizzle, not the steak.
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I believe the cockpits mod's were designed by each carriers mechanics and engineers. Obviously United didn't use American Airlines plans because not only do we have the cockpit door bar, we have a steel grate for the lower blowout panel. I'll bet everyone incorporates the door mod to our standards now.
I'm not saying it's impossible to breach, but I am saying it's impossible to get into a cockpit without taking a severe asswhippin, and definatley impossible to get complete access without tremendous effort, drunk or sober.
That really was like someone trying to attack you by sticking his head through your cat door while you sat there with a axe. Sure, he got in a bit, but he lost the "Im going to bite your shoes" "No your not, SMAK!" fight, heh.
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Well, yours are way better than ours then. We've got the single bar like United. Bet we don't change until the entire " total new door" mandate goes into effect.
It's a $afety thing. You know "$afety i$ our number one concern".
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Originally posted by Creamo
That really was like someone trying to attack you by sticking his head through your cat door while you sat there with a axe. Sure, he got in a bit, but he lost the "Im going to bite your shoes" "No your not, SMAK!" fight, heh.
That's one of the funniest things I've heard this week Creamo! ROFLOL! I'll be chuckling about that the rest of the week :)
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"Cockpit doors on big U.S. jetliners have been reinforced with metal bars since the September attacks, when suspected hijackers apparently gained entrance to the flight decks of four planes, two of them United jets.
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suspected hijackers..
what the hell is that..
what an stupid statement, are they worried they are going to get sued by the moslem motherdiddlyers that killed all those people if they call them hijackers..
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You know better than that Toad. Just think of all the lawsuits that would be filed by the other passengers for the "mental anguish" of having to see a guy's head chopped off. Hell, a few are probably filing suit already for something...I'm guessing no one in first class got waited on while the guy was being subdued. That's gotta be worth a couple mil right there! :D
SOB
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Looks like they hit him with wrong end of axe.
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I don't think they'd see the head getting chopped, off, just the body kinda twitchin' funny :D
Originally posted by SOB
You know better than that Toad. Just think of all the lawsuits that would be filed by the other passengers for the "mental anguish" of having to see a guy's head chopped off. Hell, a few are probably filing suit already for something...I'm guessing no one in first class got waited on while the guy was being subdued. That's gotta be worth a couple mil right there! :D
SOB
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The thing I find very comforting in this whole incident is the reaction of the passengers! It was the same when that idiot tried to blow up the flight from Paris recently. I have a feeling that any terrorists thinking of trying to hijack an aircraft will now consider the passengers as more of a threat to their mission than any door on the cockpit!
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Lawsuits?
Airlines have LEGIONS of LAWYERS just sitting around picking their teeth waiting to deal with stuff like this. Time for them to go to work instead of just drinking coffee.
I think I better throw a beach towel in my flight kit. My F/O's are more thoroughly instructed on "proper technique" than this guy was. You know how those carotid arteries can spray around. No point in making a mess all over the cockpit.
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Ding, ding, (Call The Attendant to Machine #3 near the Elvis Bar) and the winner of the whole argument is... CURVAL!
777, cha-ching!(fill out this tax form, casino/tax rules)
Exactly.
Hype it all anyone wants, 9/11 WON't happen again.
And lets applaued the F/O that slapped a drunk wallowing in a lower blow out door with the side of that axe..
Killing him, although I could't care a toejam, would have achieved nothing.
The F/O made a life or death call, which i assume meant he was in control, which he was.
Cool.
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Ooops, post lag, i never saw yer last toad.
My F/O's are more thoroughly instructed on "proper technique" than this guy was.
Heh, that's some blood thirsty sick toejam!
I still say let the futile drunks take the flat side of the "Axe of Wisdom", while they wallow in a heap on the floor of the cockpit, and then get arrested. But i can go your way as well.
Do you instruct the "Spiked" end, or the "Cutter?"
I go with the spike, it's just hideous and then they stick to the crime scene. Fukin aye, death and gore. SLAYER!
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Originally posted by Creamo
I go with the spike, it's just hideous and then they stick to the crime scene. Fukin aye, death and gore. SLAYER!
man, I'm gonna have to listen to some death metal here in a bit. Tho I think I might get fired if I start screamin' "fek yea, kill all dem fediddleurz right now! hellz yeeeeaaahhh beeyotch!"
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Well, how can you be 100% sure that it isn't some Osama Mamma Jammer that is faking being drunk while he struggles to get his exploding Nike Michael Jordans through the blowout panel? Better to be 100% sure that he's dead. :D
I also think killing the intruder would indeed have achieved something. You can bet the word would have gone round the world on CNN in 27 seconds or less. I have to believe it would clarify the situation in the minds of a few "air rage" prone passengers.
My personal gently delivered "instructions" are to use the blade side of the axe and keep swinging until the head comes off or the body stops twitching. So far, 100% of the interviewed F/O's have enthusiastically agreed with this technique.
Should I find one that goes "eeeewwwwww I don't think I could do THAT!" I'll just have him/her unsheath the axe and pass it over to my side prior to takeoff. Then he can fly and I'll do the attitude adjustment, should the need ever occur.
To each his own. Run your ship the way you want it run.
But if someone comes aggressively and unauthorized through the door, they'll get "dealer's choice" in any event. Some dealers are going to be rough. :)
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Originally posted by rogwar
Thursday February 7 1:25 PM ET
Man Tries to Enter Cockpit on Flight to Argentina
I did get some updated information on this character. Apparently he was on his way to Argentina from Miami to recieve a Darwin Award. :D
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LOL Toad, you know I had to put the axe back in the holder almost every overnight flight all last year? (although it seems to have stayed put in the last few months.)
I had to laugh picking up the plane to drive it to the hangar when the axe was out of the case, and in the brief case holder. Where DID those Yahting Mags go?!
Goof aside, that F/O saved a drunk from a horrid fate, which wasn't so much a threat, as a darwin (thanks Rog for that) trophy winner.
Makes me think the steel grate AA installed is more of a "Instant Justice Lesson Distractor " than a actual deterent to access the cockpit.
Im with Rog, I just can't just keep laughing at the fools that try to go through the cat door, just to get whipped like a a little squeak yappin at the crews shoes. Access any other way is pretty much impossible.
Granted, prior 9/11 cockpit doors sucked, yer damn right. However, now it's just how much instant justice the crew will administer, which is good.
And btw, I aint buying the Marshal Dylan "shoot em" or "decapitate em" Wild West/Midevil persona you posted.
Your F/O's and you will do the right thing, as the United F/O did. Most understand that as BBS banter.
All is good.
Happy flying.
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Originally posted by Creamo
And btw, I aint buying the Marshal Dylan "shoot em" or "decapitate em" Wild West/Midevil persona you posted.
Don't bet the ranch on it, Chester.
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"Festus" would have been the better moniker in the reply, but I like the thread topic turn. Cool, funner this way.
I'm at least, not the "F/O" that you would expect to SMASH a sharp crash axe through a helpless drunks head as he was wallowing on the cockpit floor, wedged in a blow out panel.
That in account, WHO DO you expect to kill these tards? Your F/O's as you said? Or You?
I know pilots can cure cancer, and navigate the world by slide-rules and dead reconing instinct, ask the AH BBS devoted( I always wondered why Collins and Honeywell avionics ever stayed in business) but they are also blessed with security and soldier capabilities?
Ah come on. Didn't this United F/O just use some common sense, and act quite appropriate given the situation?
You ain't getting a gun and a holster, so play fair in your responce. It's not just me making sense.
(Course, the pilots threatened to strike over the "Yaaahaa! I need a holster and a 6 shooter" ) so this post is time dated. Don't say "I told you so" if the airline industry and the American Public is held hostage by that kick-ass Union.
Be happy, and again, fly safe.
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Have we heard the WHOLE story yet? (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/02/08/ax-passenger.htm)
"An airline passenger who was subdued with an ax after he kicked in the bottom of a cockpit door and tried to wriggle through said later that he had "wanted to destroy everything," according to the FBI....
..Argentine authorities said they were investigating whether he was under the influence of drugs or mentally unhinged. U.S. officials said he did not appear to be drunk and was not armed, and that it did not appear to be a terrorist act....."
As I said, how do you tell the Osama Mamma Jammas from the "normal" crazies? "Harmless drunk?" How do you know? Unarmed? Have you checked for exploding tennies? Who knows what else they're going to come up with? Mont Blanc pens packed with cyanide? It's getting like Maxwell Smart and Agent 99 out there. They've proven they are not technologically unaware and incapable. Does anyone really KNOW what weapons they're working on now and/or what they may have brought in through our faultless security? You may not have very long to decide.
The cockpit is "like a box of chocolates"... try to open it in flight aggressively and without authorization and you just never know what you're going to get. Perhaps you'll find that cool, reserved "common sense", considerate, perfect UAL F/O. Or, maybe you'll find somebody that's STILL really pissed that they used the airline industry to strike the USA, flattening the economy and deeply wounding the industry.... and considers it his job to make absolutely certain that it doesn't happen again with "this" aircraft. You just never know, do you?
I have no problem with Darwinian theory. Somebody wants to play "cockpit door roulette"? OK, just be advised he may come up "00".
As I mentioned before, in the 5+ months since 9/11, I have yet to meet one F/O that wasn't enthusiastic about keeping transgressors permanently out of the cockpit. It's just easier for a right-handed F/O to engage an intruder from his seat than it is for a right-handed Captain from the left seat, given the door location. However, roles CAN be reversed.
Look at it any way you want; you have your feet on the ground at work. Not everyone has that luxury.
.... and, continuing the Forrest Gump theme....
"That's all I have to say about that."
Cya.
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Originally posted by Toad
I have no problem with Darwinian theory. Somebody wants to play "cockpit door roulette"? OK, just be advised he may come up "00".
Such a character would never know what or who's behind door number 1. What if the pilot's brother was a New York fireman? Cockpit door roulette hits the nail on the head!
However having spent time in a past life (10 years ago) significantly involved in counter terrorism and such things I would recommend just enough force to safely and securely stop the attack (including killing the assailant if needed). Assuming it might be a real TANGO like Richard Reid, they can be a great source of intel if left alive.
These sorts of things go down very fast when they happen. It's difficult to predict the outcome.
I am curious where the Air Marshals were?
By the way, I now travel over 100k air miles a year usually on AA. Last year I flew 120K actual miles. I have spotted one Air Marshal so far, on a flight from Rio de Janiero to Miami in December. How? Experience with noticing things like weapon's bulges and light kevlar fabric type body armor beneath clothing.
In my opinion this banker was just dumb as a box of rocks. One thing is likely certain, they are not issuing anymore just warnings and maybe a fine for misbehaving on aircraft.
Happy Flying!
Rogue out
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Oh yeah.. air marshals.
Not their fault of course, but anyone want to guess how many AM's I've had on my 757/767 aircraft since 9/11? (They are required to make themselves known to the crew.)
Want to guess?
Oh, you don't need to? You figured it out already?
That's what I thought.
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Hey, I'm not going to argue with anyone that is dead set on playing O.J. in a situation where the deciding factor is not wether the attacker is subdued, but rather if the sorry bastard"might" have a KAOS shoe phone and resude from a firecracker on it. Kill em all, certainly you would know I don't care. If you try and breach a cockpit door, sorry pal, you lost lifes lottery. Same thing with child molesters.
I just thought it made a good argument that most people wouldn't spray grey matter, blood, and bone chips all over hell and themselves when someone is stuck in your blow out panel. Not to say he didn't want to show you him lighting his Nike's. I guess. Still, chopping off a head with an axe is some super sick toejam. Cool actually, I just couldn't sleep after that kinda thing. It was worth asking about all these loyal F/O's that could. More power to them.
Oh, and I have the luxury of keeping my feet on the ground for a living, because I would make a bad stewardess. It's the deciding who gets the full can of pop vs. the just 3 oz. in a plastic cup that would drive me crazy. Plus they are usually gay, or date pilots, which I think is the same thing. I still don't see them as fearless shining brave knights of the sky though. I'll have to look harder.
I do drive a car to work, and if I spilled coffee on my nads, I suppose I could swerve and fly off a bridge, crashing in a horrid heap of fire and twisted metal. Actually, that stats prove Im more likley to die driving to the terminal than on a jet. See? Told you Im tougher, and braver, and don't wear polyester.
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The only issue I see with ofsquealing the guys head is that it'd squirt blood all over the cockpit instruments and leave a hell of a mess for the Air Hostess's to clean up.
Seems the F/O musta thought it through :-)