Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on February 08, 2002, 10:09:23 AM
-
What’s missing here is the same attribute that is missing in way too many homes these days, DISCIPLINE.
======================================
The Making of Johnny Walker
THE ROAD TO TREASON
By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
December 13, 2001
It isn't the case that the parents of John Walker -- the Marin County
child of privilege turned Taliban terrorist -- never drew the line with their son.
True, they didn't do so when he was 14 and his consuming passion was
collecting hip-hop CDs with especially nasty lyrics.
And true, they didn't put their foot down when he announced at 16 that
he was going to drop out of Tamiscal High School -- the elite "alternative"
school where students determined their own course of study and only saw
a teacher once a week.
And granted, they didn't interfere when he abruptly decided to become a
Muslim after reading *The Autobiography of Malcolm X,* grew a beard, and
took to wearing long white robes and an oversized skullcap. On the
contrary: His father was "proud of John for pursuing an alternative course"
and his mother told friends that it was "good for a child to find a passion."
Nor did they object when he began spending more and more time at a local
mosque and set about trying to memorize the Koran.
Nor when he asked his parents to pay his way to Yemen so he could learn
to speak "pure" Arabic.
Nor when they learned that his new circle of friends included gunmen who
had been to Chechnya to fight the Russians.
Nor when he headed to Pakistan to join a madrassah in a region known
to be a stronghold of Islamist extremists.
His parents also didn't balk when he went to fight in Afghanistan -- but
that, at least, they didn't know about: Walker hadn't told them. Perhaps
by that point he had learned to take their consent for granted.
Only once, it seems, did Frank Lindh and Marilyn Walker actually deny
their son something he wanted. When he first adopted Islam and took
the name Suleyman, they refused to use it and insisted on calling him John.
After all, he had been named for one of the giants of our time: John Lennon.
Their refusal must have amazed him. For as long as he could remember,
his oh-so-progressive parents had answered "Yes" to his every whim,
indulged his every fancy, permitted -- even praised -- his every passion.
The only thing they insisted on was that nothing be insisted on. Nothing in
his life was important enough for his them to make an issue of: not his
schooling, not his religion, not his appearance, not even whether he stayed in
America or moved -- while still a minor -- to a benighted Third World oligarchy
halfway around the world. Nothing. Except, of course, their right to call
him by the name of their favorite Beatle.
Devout practitioners of the self-obsessed nonjudgmentalism for which the
Bay Area is renowned, Lindh and Walker appear never to have rebuked
their son or criticized his choices. In their world, there were no absolutes,
no fixed truths, no mandatory behavior, no thou-shalt-nots. If they had
one conviction, it was that all convictions are worthy -- that nothing is
intolerable except intolerance.
But even in Marin County, there are times when children need to hear
"No" and "Don't." They need to know that there are limits they must respect
and expectations they must try to live up to. If they cannot find those
limits and expectations at home, they are apt to look for them elsewhere.
Newsweek calls it "truly perplexing" that Walker, who "grew up in possibly
the most liberal, tolerant place in America . . . was drawn to the most
illiberal, intolerant sect in Islam." There is nothing perplexing about it.
He craved standards and discipline. Mom and Dad didn't offer any.
The Taliban did.
Even when it was clear that their son was sinking into Islamist
fanaticism, they wouldn't pull back on the reins. When Osama bin Laden's
terrorists bombed the USS Cole and killed 17 American servicemen,
Walker e-mailed his father that the attack had been justified, since by
docking the ship in Yemen, the United States had committed "an act of war."
Lindh now says that the message "raised my concerns" -- but that didn't stop
him from wiring Walker another $1,200. After all, says Dad, "my days of
molding him were over." It isn't clear that they ever began.
It undoubtedly came as a jolt to his parents when Walker turned up at
the fortress near Mazar-i-Sharif, sporting an AK-47 and calling himself
Abdul Hamid. But the revelation that their son had enlisted in Al Qaeda
and supported the Sept. 11 attacks brought no words of reproach -- or
self-reproach -- to their lips.
Walker deserved "a little kick in the butt" for keeping them in the dark
about his plans, his father said, but otherwise they just wanted to "give
him a big hug." His mother, meanwhile, was quite sure that "if he got
involved with the Taliban he must have been brainwashed. . . . When
you're young and impressionable, it's easy to be led by charismatic people."
Yes, it is, and it's a pity that that didn't occur to her sooner. If she and Lindh had been less concerned with flaunting their open-mindedness
and more concerned with developing their son's moral judgment, he wouldn't
be where he is today. Walker is responsible for his own behavior and he
will pay the price the law requires. But his road to treason and jihad
didn't begin in Afghanistan. It began in Marin County, with parents who
never said "No."
-
Yep.
Some people think that kids should be treated like adults, and that it will make them good adults if they do so... but kids aren't adults, and need to be treated completely differently - not harshly, and not as lessers, but differently... encouraging free thought in your kids is important, but so are teaching and discipline.
-
Rerun
-
I'll grant that the Lindh's permissive style of parenting left John looking for more discipline.
I don't agree with the heading though. Corporal punishment doen't necessarily equate to good discipline. My children are remarkably well behaved and we are far more strict than many of the parents of my children's friends... but we don't hit our kids.
They're your kids. Whack away if you want, but don't kid yourself into thinking that a good beating is all you need to effectively raise them.
-
Mm, but I'd argue discipline is possible without using a whip.
None of us four children of my mother and father have been spanked. Admittedly, I've turned out a bit weird. Oldest bro has a cand. scient in math and in physics. Second oldest has one in comp. sci. Younger sis is almost done as a doc.
Perhaps the topic is just a saying. I agree with Eagler fully that what is sorely lacking today is discipline. But I disagree with the idea that regular physical punishment is a good form of discipline.
-
i agree that jonny taliban is a twit (i mean what guy has hyphenated name for cryin out loud - might as well call yourself betty)
but the artical is ripe with the typical bs that flies right over our heads every day:
"And granted, they didn't interfere when he abruptly decided to become a Muslim after reading *The Autobiography of Malcolm X,* grew a beard, and took to wearing long white robes and an oversized skullcap. On the contrary: His father was "proud of John for pursuing an alternative course"
- so the problem was that he was easily influenced or that he was a rich white kid trying to find identity as a wanna be black guy? i think the author should just be clear - i mean would it have been ok if he read the bible and started wearing a cross? is that ok for an all american boy whereas adopting islam is somehow shady?
Nor did they object when he began spending more and more time at a local mosque and set about trying to memorize the Koran.
again....can you imagine the reaction if the article had said "nor did they object when he started spending more and more time at a local church trying to memorize the bible"
or how bout this one:
"Nor when he asked his parents to pay his way to Yemen so he could learn to speak "pure" Arabic.
- well duh, everyone know that the acceptable languages for red blooded americans to study are german, italian(if you are super daring), or french! those other languuages are for those dirty foreign types.
what a stupid article. i hate the little dipshishter too and i think his parents are spineless weenies BUT this article suggests that he'd be ok if he listened to top 40 instead of rap, adopted christianity instead of islam and picked a nice white european culture to study instead of an arab one.
typical populist appeal piece.
:rolleyes:
-
Sorry I didn't say that too - I also think there is no reason to whack yer kids. It's just a cheap way of showing power.
-
I spanked my kids occasionally when they were younger. Never with anything more than the open palm of my hand. By the time they were 3-4 there was no reason to consider spanking them. If you ask anyone that knows, they would tell you that my kids are 2 of the most well-behaved children they've ever seen. We get compliments all the time about it. My kids are now 11 and 7, and I haven't touched either of them for years. Can't even remember the last time I did, and they probably don't either. They behave not out of fear, but out of understanding. They know discipline, they are respectful, and they know when they've gone too far. There is a difference between beating your kids and smacking their bellybutton when they're younger. A good bellybutton smacking never hurt anyone. I wouldn't change one thing in the way I raised my children, and if I had another child, you can bet they would get their bellybutton smacked when they needed it.
-
So discipline means not allowing your children to listen to hip-hop, reading malcom x bio, and learning languages?
Please.
-
Though I agree with the message here, and think that his parents were indeed too permissive, treating their child as an adult and letting him do whatever he wanted, I do see your point about how he makes his point at times, Animal. That does nothing to change my view of the issue at hand.
-
I know.
But if the child is growing to be a love muffin, he will be so wether he reads the bible, or the coran.
I dont believe parents should restrict what their children read or listen, as long as they teach tolerance and respect for other's beliefs and choices.
Johnny Taliban, The Tard, made his own choices.
I rather have to make MY choice on whats right or wrong, than to be forced on what others thing is "good" or "evil" (wich is relative to all families anyways)
The outcome of my choice is MY responsability and mine only.
His outcome is his responsability, and he must face the wrath of the christians!
:cool:
(sorry for all the edits, i'm at work and its hard to write this while helping some tard on the phone connect to the internet)
-
LOL, Animal, now I know what the support dudes are doing when they say, "Hold on, please"
Yep, Johnny boy is gotta learn the hard way because mom and dad didn't do their job and impart principles and ideals, and teach him the difference between right and wrong.
Now, society has to do it for them. :rolleyes:
-
Ah... the ol' nature vs. nurture argument! :)
Once we are adults, the choices we make are our own, and even as children, this is the case to a lesser extent. We can't hold his parents responsible for his actions - he will need to pay for his mistakes himself. We CAN however, look at the parents and say "This likely could have been avoided had you actually acted like parents."
I truly believe that parenting is more important than genetics, and how people raise their children is an enormously important factor of how those children will act as adults. Obviously, some children overcome terrible parenting to be successful adults (I'm talking character here, not 'success'), and some children with terrific parents turn out to be amazinhunks. By and large, though, I think it is true.
-
yeah but the article's author presumes a correct answer and a correct path....of course he doesn't give it to us because he doesn't need to!
it's already deep in our consciousness from years of programming - you fill in the blanks, it shouldn't be hard to come up with a socially acceptable, top 40 consistent scheme for lil johnny:
here's examples, based on the article:
johnny: "mom i want to become a moslem"
mom: "no johnny, that's bad, you'll be a terrorist someday if you start being a dirty raghead, but as an alternative i offer you____________"
johnny: "dad. i'm gonna go to the mosque and study the koran - see ya"
dad: "now wait just a minute sport, that's wrong, and since i want to parent you correctly, i say you should_____________ instead."
johnny: " damn nigga, these beats is raw as F%$#! they be SLAMMIN and shi&%!"
dad & mom: "johnny, we find that music objectionable, we think you should listen to something more like______________ instead."
johnny: "hey ma and pa you like this new lacy moslem hat and white robes?"
mom and dad: "actually no johnny, you can't wear religious identifiers of any kind."
or, alternatively:
mom and dad: "no johnny, you can't wear moslem clothing specifically or take a moslem name specifically, but if you need to be religious, it would be ok if you followed________________and wore _________identifiers like a _______________."
johnny: "yo moms, i think i want to go to yemen and learn arabic at the source"
mom: "no johnny, you shouldn't want to study arabic because _____________and people in yemen are __________, so as an alternative i suggest you study___________."
in short, if "not guiding" him was wrong, then what SHOULD they have counseled him to do? i mean, if you are a critic, then let's hear what ma and pa should have done in those crucial moments. is there one answer? what is it?
well they should have told him to go watch some tv and pick which fast food joint had the most tits, babies, puppies, sports stars, witty cutesy sayings and explosions in their commercial and then they could have all gone to the winning corporate payment station and choked down slop together as a happy clone family.
-
The editorial is equally as silly as saying, "If parents did not insist on disciplining their children, there would be nothing to rebel against, and they would all be more well behaved."
-
Here's a generalised answer.
It starts at the very beginning, when your children aren't rational. You let them know they are loved and you will protect them. With that sense of security they start to explore, with confidence.
As they become rational they will start to have questions, you answer them as best you can, let them learn. Don't lie to them, offer your opinion, make sure that they know it's just an opinion, tell them what it's based on. Have, a well thought out, set of rules. Make sure they know the consequence of breaking them. Make sure they know why you have put those rules in place.
After they become adults, hopefully you can tell yourself that you've done the best you could. Their decisions from there on in is there own. If your best wasn't good enough, well you have two options. Feel guilty for the rest of your life, or not.
P.S. Decipline doesn't have to mean, physically assaulting your child. Feel free to rationalise, but if you hit your kid, that's what you are doing. What would you do if a stranger hit your kid. Why would it be okay for you to do it. You are their father or mother, you should suscibe to a better set of standards then you would demand from a stranger.
-
The guy has a weak personality and he needed some adults to guide him to find himself. He had to go to Afganistan to find some apperently.
But what are we talking about here..
One young dweeb in a country of 300 million. The laws of probability would almost insist that one idiot was over there burning the US flag or what ever the hell he was doing.
Why focus on it. Focus on the hundreds of thousands of young teens and young adults in your country well brought up or not that want to go hunt down the murderers that attacked your you...
They are the overwhelming majority I bet.
You guys are crucifying the author of this piece like he really said the things that mr fish attributed to him...He did not.
You say that what Johny did was the equivilent of doning a crucifix. I disagree. It was more like booking a trip to Jones Town. His parents should have had the judgment and strength to be there for him. They did not. Now they seem to be there to try to help him avoid paying the price for his decisions. They should stick with there original plan and let Johny "experiance" the full consequence and result of his decisions..that is the way to let him "grow" isnt it?
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
P.S. Decipline doesn't have to mean, physically assaulting your child. Feel free to rationalise, but if you hit your kid, that's what you are doing. What would you do if a stranger hit your kid. Why would it be okay for you to do it. You are their father or mother, you should suscibe to a better set of standards then you would demand from a stranger.
I love that...."Physically assaulting your child." Give me a break. If I flick you in the back of the head, is that a physical assault? I'm not talking beating the snot out of a kid, I'm talking about a smack on a very well-padded ass. That's half the problem with the world, everyone's turned into a pansy. Can't do toejam without being afraid of hurting someone's feelings, or wounding their inner child.
-
OK, Thrawn.. I call.
How many kids YOU got?
-
no kiddin raub. your kids are fine just like everyone else who had 'appropriate' discipline growing up. they arent the fragile mental willows the left paints them as.
as it relates to this article though, i doubt you will have to spell it out for them someday because they will see that becoming a moslem isnt bad but killing people and betraying your country is.
i remember being at one of those wafty new age parenting kid's houses and standing in the kitchen totally embarrassed as he threw an all out hissy tantrum at age 10 because his parents wouldnt let him go somewhere, i forget where now.
everytime the kid didn't get his way he'd fuss and they'd both come running, talking at him and kinda scurrying around him. tons of attention.
you could hear their voices quake as they asked him to reapeat 'calming statements' with them... they were at wits end for sure and i kept thinking damn! my mom would just flip if i was doin that!
i got on my bike and took off think man that family is f&^ked up!
a few spanks when you are really young is all it really takes and after about 5 yrs - you just know better.
you take that moment where they stop spanking you and starting reasoning with you as an acknowledgement of your own mini-maturity - it's like a little right of passage.
given this acknowledgement, most kids rise to the challenge because they love to show how mature they are. well they always try to reason even during the spanking stage but you know what i mean i hope.
if there's no foundation in place you end up some spoiled fit throwing mess that becomes a double-parker some day :)
-
That's the point I was trying to get across mr fish. I'm just not that eloquent of a writer. Must be because of all the beatings I got as a child. ;)
-
I got a flicked ear for being mildly bad or a spankin for bein real bad. My dad kept a $*#*ing big stick behind the freezer and hit the table with it if we were out of line(very rare, we had to be out of control). But as a deterrant it worked wonderfully. Nothing quite like psychological parenting.
All the pansy parenting crap is breeding a generation of weak willed babies. The next generation will be Generation Girly-Nancy. My girlfriend works in child-care and sees it all the time. It cracks me up when she tells me about parents trying to reason with their 3 year old like its an adult. You're the parent, YOU make the decisions, not your kid.
-
Spanking does not equal discipline.
Lack of spanking does not equal lack of discipline.
:rolleyes:
-
:-/
That wasn't really the point. I said rarely did it happen. I realised that if I really overstepped the mark there was an established punishment waiting for me. I can't remember actually being spanked but I'm sure I was.
Most of the time I was disciplined in various other ways. My parents never let me overrule them there were strict boundaries for my behaviour. They were always the ones in control and I knew what punishment would be meted out if I deserved one.
Generally my parents were quite leniant about most things, they believed I would learn from experience and that to stop me doing something would only encourage me. If I really went to far though I would cop it, for example, if I was disrespectful. I could get away with crap grades and fighting at school but talking back or lighting a fire were obvious no-no's :).
Anyway, blah blah blah. I think I've said enough about my childhood :).
-
No gabvor, tell us more.
Do you think this is what has caused the fetish for 'big sticks' that people 'slam into the table'? :D :D :D
Not bashing your 'alternative lifestyle' here or anything :D
Heheheh, couldn't resist.
-
Spanking does not equal discipline.
Lack of spanking does not equal lack of discipline.
Spot on Sandman, however there are moments when a shock to the system is required. The best example is a 2 year old that runs into the street. The severity of the situation MUST be conveyed to the toddler....or they might die!
Where I disagree with physical punishment is when it becomes ritualized. "You need to be spanked for not doing your homework Johnny"......dumb!
-
I set myself up for that StSanta. On the final note to that story, one night I was particulary rowdy at the table and my dad of course used the stick threat. When that didnt work he hit it on the table. It broke in half and the bottom part bounced off the table and hit him in the head. Still makes me laugh.
Anyway, I agree with Target, it probably sums up my position rather well. I'm not real big on physical punishment but I believe it has its place in some circumstances. (certainly nothing as trivial as not doing your homework).
Parents who, when their 5yo is out of control, use the 'please johnny, dont break any more of mummys good plates' annoy me. A certain amount of reasoning can be utilised, but discipline(not necessarily spanking) is whats really needed.
-
The biggest mistake I think we all make as parents is - not trying to catch our kids doing the right thing. Believe me, I am as guilty as the rest of the world. When a kid is nice and quiet, or reading a book, parents will use this as their own break time. This is when our kids should be getting the most feedback from us.
I taught Special Ed. for 5 years, and young children have much in common with the retarded:) .
We had a student I'll call Mary. Mary was usually quiet and reserved, but once in a while all that would change. In the middle of the class, for no apparent reason, Mary would begin to scream bloody murder. We tried placing her in "time out" or banning her from the class. These things worked only for a short time. We finally hit on a new tack. Every 5 minutes we would go and thank her for being quiet. This worked like a charm. She was now getting attention for doing the right thing, instead of the attention she got for screaming.
I try to let my kids know when I like what they are doing, even if it is a little thing. But as I said up at the beginning, I have also taken advantage of the quiet times....parenting is a squeak but it is the most rewarding squeak.
:cool:
-
Dats a good idea target, and one that doesnt automatically spring to mind.
I know it's a bad comparison, but thats what we do with dogs. Scold bad behaviour and praise good behaviour.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
The biggest mistake I think we all make as parents is - not trying to catch our kids doing the right thing. Believe me, I am as guilty as the rest of the world. When a kid is nice and quiet, or reading a book, parents will use this as their own break time. This is when our kids should be getting the most feedback from us.
I try to let my kids know when I like what they are doing, even if it is a little thing. But as I said up at the beginning, I have also taken advantage of the quiet times....parenting is a squeak but it is the most rewarding squeak.
:cool:
Yep, you hit the nail on the head there. Kids need positive feedback more than anything. You have to let them know when they do the right thing.
-
I agree that if you can discipline your children without a spanking more power to ya. That is the ideal situation. It's unusual to have a couple of boys close to the same age and not have to use corporal punishment on them. I have a 10 yr old girl, 6 yr old boy and a 5 yr odl boy. My daughter is very low maintenance. Tell her what to do and she does it, if she gives ya lip, just say it a lil more stern and there's no prob. Straight A's in school, a sweetheart.
My two boys, well, they really enjoy fighting. And I mean fighting, my 5 yr old actually balls up a fist and jabs with the hand guarding his face. lol. Don't know where he got that but I'm doing my best to get him and his bro to get along. I had a bro 1.5 yrs younger than me when I was growing up. We used to beat the heck out of each other on a regular basis. Fistfights, stitches etc. We didn't really hate each other, we stuck up for each other at school, just couldn't get along together. My mom tried that grounding crap (pop wasn't around much) She'd ground me for like 2 months at a time. It didn't work well. Just built up anger inside. I was very disrespectful to my mom.
I don't want my boys going through that crap. That's why I'm trying to curb this bad behavior mess while they're still young. If they fight, they usually get a swat to the butt and a good talking to. For just about everything else words work. I think it's all in how you say the words that makes it work. My wife is horrible at keeping my boys straight. If they misbehave in the Supermarket, she'll say something like. "Now, you boys better straighten out....ok?" which I think is retarded. I mean shes asking them if its ok if they behave for crying out loud. Such is the case with too many young parents who think they're being all noble by not "touching" their children. In many cases, the kids are just brats gone wild. To make "not touching" your kids work (or young boys in my case) you gotta lay it down to them clearly. You don't ask them squat. You let them know that they're misbehaving and it's not going to be tolerated. Men in most cases (IMO) are better at this. Granted some boys can be raised up in a single parent home (mom) and be raised in a heathly atmosphere. The moms who do this are usually pretty mature, not your young 20's.
Anyways, there's my blathering. And I'm sticking to it! :p