Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SirLoin on February 11, 2002, 10:10:42 AM
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I've been flying FW's for the last 6 weeks and it is a totally new and exciting experience!!!
Just when I was getting slightly confident on my Spit/P51/Tempest skills,I decided to try the vertical and angles aspect of fighting...Whoooooaaaaaa!
I have a whole lot of respect for these FW jocks now...Darn things are bloody good!..It's a whole new learning curve on it's own trying to use your roll/"E" bleed rate vs his turning/climbing rate...Best of all,it's completely difficult and immersive as hell!!!
Reminds me a bit of a Spiderman episode...The one where he approaches a floating door in space and the doorknob turns into a red hand tempting ol' Spidey to grasp it...He does...He gets sucked in as he hears the Satanic voice say "Welcome to the fourth dimension!!!"....
If you think you're a superhero in a turnplane,I say give the FW a try and..."Welcome To The Vertical Dimension!!!...Muhahahaha!!!"..
:D
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muahaha you're hooked! Now go and fly your spit like a FW or 109 for some more fun :D
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Wellcome onboard SirLoin ;)
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Sirloin,
Good to see you try the FW's out, :D
Apar
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Spit IX is one of the greatest energy fighter in the game. For the last year I probably saw only one person who used Spit IX the way, it shall be used. It was Khan.
In expirienced hands Spit IX is absolutly deadly, it has both verticals and horizontals, punch, enough ammo, and yet not so slow as you can think.
Fariz
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Originally posted by Fariz
Spit IX is one of the greatest energy fighter in the game. For the last year I probably saw only one person who used Spit IX the way, it shall be used. It was Khan.
Khan ran from even odds and only engaged with substantial altitude AND numbers advantages. How is that using the Spit IX correctly? I could fly a 202 this way and rack up kills.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Yes, that is how Spit IX shall be used. It means you shall engage only when you have an energy advantage, and disengage when you has energy disadvantage. And when spit can't ran away, which happens often, it still can turn the table by careful e managment, building your e, and wastng enemy e. It may be borring, but if we speak it terms of K : D its how it shall be flown. Putting it into turn fights at every possible case is wasting big part of its potential. At least its how I understand it.
Yes, even 202 can be an energy fighter, if used as an energy fighter, but it just not good for this role against MA plane set.
Fariz
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Real pilots were engaged in missions which often forced them to accept combat on unfavorable terms. For example they couldn't just abandon the bombers if enemy fighters that are higher and/or more numerous showed up. Being able to fight effectively when starting at a disadvantage is a very useful skill and everybody (no matter how careful they are) will find themselves in this situation upon occasion. Accepting combat under all conditions, such as Leviathin does, is the only way you get practice to develop this skill. Because he does this Leviathinn can be an enormous pain in the butt to fight.
Surely there are people who fight stupidly while flying spitfires. But there are also people who fight very well and don't needlessly waste energy (or other resources): and this is not limited to those who only engage if they have an advantage.
Hooligan
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rollercoaster!
i love vertical moves - vert scissors (the rollercoaster) has saved me i dont know how many times....
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Originally posted by Fariz
Yes, that is how Spit IX shall be used. It means you shall engage only when you have an energy advantage, and disengage when you has energy disadvantage.
[/B]
This is a general strategy for flying in AH. You'll find players who follow these rules of engagement flying all types of planes -- Spit IX, P-38, P-47, P-51, Typhoon, 109G10, etc etc. The Spit IX certainly doesn't have a monopoly on "smart" flying. Nor does it energy fight better than all other planes. If I had to choose, I'd take a G10 any day in this role over a Spit IX.
And when spit can't ran away, which happens often, it still can turn the table by careful e managment, building your e, and wastng enemy e. It may be borring, but if we speak it terms of K : D its how it shall be flown. Putting it into turn fights at every possible case is wasting big part of its potential. At least its how I understand it.
[/B]
And now you've just hit upon exactly why K/D is such a poor objective measure of skill. What Khan does is boring, at least to me, and it takes more patience than skill. You also raise a question of which measures deserve more merit. If we go by K/T rather than K/D, Khan ranks poorly (under 0.0020 in every tour I checked). In addition, his K/S appears mediocre given the way he flies (~2 most tours).
Yes, even 202 can be an energy fighter, if used as an energy fighter, but it just not good for this role against MA plane set.
[/B]
I flew the 202 as an energy fighter out of boredom one night and managed to cherry pick five kills in one mission with it. Even the 202's crappy guns make mincemeat of enemies at 100 yards out when they don't see you coming. The 202 performed admirably in this role, as would any fighter plane. I bet I could even fly a light B-26 this way and make out reasonably well.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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And where I said that pilot shall not be able to fly from disadvantage? :)
What I am saying is that he shall avoid disadvantage fights whenever possible. And because Spit IX has not enough speed to run away, pilot shall when possible keep its potential energy high, and use verticals more often, than horizontals to keep it high. That is what 190a5 pilot shall do, but in case of 190 you have no choice, while in Spit you have it. In case of Spit IX for majority of its pilots its good turning capability shade much more effective use of it. I do not say there are no effective spit pilots, I say they can be more effective if will use all its capabilities, not most apparent of them. Again, effective in terms of sirvivability and k : d.
Fariz
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I think I had a flash of momentary insanity like StSanta did flying the American planes...:D
Luftwobble experiment..OVER!!!
Hello Green Machine!!!(P51b)...:D
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Once you learn how to kill without turning, it's pretty easy to get kills and live in anything fast. Speed kills.
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I get my kicks by getting my plane to do ACM that it's NOT noted for being able to do... being entirely unpredictable is often the best move in the bag.
Anybody that puts his mind in a rut, flying only to the planes strengths will fly right into the sights of the guy that knows that path as well as you do. Turn the tables.. do the unexpected.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I get my kicks by getting my plane to do ACM that it's NOT noted for being able to do... being entirely unpredictable is often the best move in the bag.
Anybody that puts his mind in a rut, flying only to the planes strengths will fly right into the sights of the guy that knows that path as well as you do. Turn the tables.. do the unexpected.
Exactly Hangtime! Thats how I get my kills... some time in the heat of the fight, I pull down my pants and moon the enemy. They become paralyzed and lawn dart shortly thereafter. :D
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So this is Octavius!
(http://www.info-strategies.com/fiends/F4MOON.jpg)
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ROFL! and who's his rio enjoying the view??
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ROFLMAO!!!!..:D
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Will Todd/DMF/Leviathn ever stop whining about boredom ?! :confused:
It gets boring quickly ;)
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Originally posted by Hristo
Will Todd/DMF/Leviathn ever stop whining about boredom ?!
[/B]
If you'll read carefully, it was Fariz himself who admitted that Khan's flying style was "boring." I was merely agreeing with him, and I even made the conditional statement that it was boring "at least for me." Your own mileage may vary.
I really don't understand why you're trying to make an issue out of what I consider to be boring. I've routinely stated that I support the right of every player to fly as he or she deems fit. It's certainly not my place to tell them how to enjoy themselves, but by the same token I know how I enjoy myself. And it sure doesn't consist of flying conservatively to preserve my K/D ratio.
The real question is whether or not you'll ever stop whining about my stating my own personal preferences over what I consider to be boring. So far I'm not encouraged by what I've seen.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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the most boring thing is when there's chance of a 1on1 with someone you think might be able to kill you and he runs away.
// fats
p.s. mid-air vulches really aren't kills, though majority of kills anyone gets are just those.
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No one except Khan can say whether he was bored flying that way or not. I'm also for the K/T factor, but, obviously, not in a Spit. It is like going for only K/D flying only Me262.
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I'm having VERY fun when I B&Z, it gets so much better when the spit pilot starts whining about me not turning with him, then he gets bored, the he dies :D
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
No one except Khan can say whether he was bored flying that way or not. I'm also for the K/T factor, but, obviously, not in a Spit. It is like going for only K/D flying only Me262.
You were fine until your second sentence. "Obviously" not in a Spit? There's absolutely nothing obvious about why you would discredit this statistic for a Spit other than misplaced and/or uninformed bias. As Khan shows, you can't assume anything about how players fly particular planes, or are you suggesting that he was exceptionally bad for flying a Spit and producing such a piss-poor K/T?
In any event, all statistics should be taken with a grain of salt... not because of what people fly, but how they fly it. Flying very conservatively produces a high K/D, generally low K/S, and quite low K/T. Vulching, however, produces high K/D, high K/S, high K/T, and even a high hit percentage. Someone who vulches at every opportunity does not necessarily possess greater skills than someone who, consistently outnumbered, produces lower numbers. There is, unfortunately, no true objective measure of skill in AH, or at least not one that can't be "cooked" through particular flying styles or techniques that have little to do with skill.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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My second statement is based in the plane type, not in the pilot.
Where is the interest into having a 400/0 K/D ratio flying 262?
Where is the interest into having a 0.0050 K/T ratio flying spit?
Pick up any spit pilot, put him into a P47 and give him so drugs to increase his agressiveness, after a tour, check his K/T.
K/T and H/P and 50% dependent on the plane type while K/D and K/S are 100% dependent on the pilot style.
So, I'm not suggesting that he was exceptionally bad in the spit due low K/T, in fact I have no idea about his K/T. He has his flying style and it seems he was good with it.
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Hi Wilbus!
As fun as my Spit9 in B&Z style against lower 190:
Hi higher Spit! Try new Turn&Run tactics, ok?
Originally posted by Wilbus
I'm having VERY fun when I B&Z, it gets so much better when the spit pilot starts whining about me not turning with him, then he gets bored, the he dies :D
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to run from a Hi spit when in a 190 is pretty smart considering the spit does everything better then except for level speed :)
Sissyfires, that's what they are, pink interior, belive me! I'VE SEEN IT!! :D
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Pink, heh? Soon ALL colors will spinning in your eyes while
you go down in flaming 190!
We will meet in ropering soon...
:D
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
My second statement is based in the plane type, not in the pilot.
[/B]
No, part of your second statement is based on plane type. The other part derives from an inappropriate generalization.
Where is the interest into having a 400/0 K/D ratio flying 262?
[/B]
Flown conservatively, the 262 becomes completely untouchable by anything in the arena including other 262s. It packs more punch, more speed, better zoom, etc. than anything else in AH. So yes, you're right that a massive K/D ratio in a 262 shouldn't come as any surprise.
Where is the interest into having a 0.0050 K/T ratio flying spit?
[/B]
This statement, however, does not compare to the former. The Spit may be a good furball plane, but it's ridiculous to assume that Spits alone allow for high K/T. Zekes turn better, N1ks and Ki-61s compare favorably in all respects, 205s are faster, 262s and Yak-9Ts have better guns, etc. Explain to me exactly how a Spit becomes "untouchable" in K/T in the same way a 262 becomes "untouchable" for K/D. You just can't compare.
In addition, the numbers simply don't bear out your generalization of the simplicity of flying a Spit and acruing a high K/T. I looked up the K/T for four players I would consider hot sticks in the Spit IX/V, and their K/T ranged from 0.0025 to 0.0031. Only one of them matched your own K/T, MANDOBLE, and yet they flew the Amazing Collosal Spit of Fast Killing +5.
Pick up any spit pilot, put him into a P47 and give him so drugs to increase his agressiveness, after a tour, check his K/T.
[/B]
So now you're suggesting that someone who grabs a P-47 and flies it into furballs as if it were a Spit would suffer a decrease in K/T? Duh. OTOH, stick an aggressive, good player into a P-47 and he or she will fly to the strengths of the P-47 even in a furball environment. I expect K/T would go down initially and then go back up again as the player became more comfortable with the new ride.
K/T and H/P and 50% dependent on the plane type while K/D and K/S are 100% dependent on the pilot style.
[/B]
I don't think there's a formula to this which is as easy as you're trying to make it. Like I've said, all stats should be taken with a grain of salt because it's easy to manipulate them by flying in certain ways.
So, I'm not suggesting that he was exceptionally bad in the spit due low K/T, in fact I have no idea about his K/T. He has his flying style and it seems he was good with it.
But you've suggested that a K/T of 0.0050 (LOL... do you realize how incredibly hard it would be to achieve that in any plane?) should be par for the course for Spits, so anything under that we'll consider a disappointment.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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What Im suggesting is that some planes need more time to setup a decent attack while having survival chances in a outnumbered environment, others need less time.
About your list of planes "beating" the spit, the only ones that have remote chances of being as favorable as spit for K/T are Ki and N1KJ. Zeke is a stone at hi and medium speeds and a poor diver while the Spit is very good at any speed and probably the best diver. Ki is slower and worse climber, N1K2 may be on par with spit at low level, but at medium and hi alts is frankly much worse than spit. Add two hispanos to the cocktail and the result is the plane with much better chances of getting more kills per hour played than anyother in the hangar.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
What Im suggesting is that some planes need more time to setup a decent attack while having survival chances in a outnumbered environment, others need less time.
[/B]
And what I'm suggesting is that this is not necessarily true. The numbers support my position, not yours. Players who fly all different types of aircraft possess K/T ranging all over the place. If it is intrinsically easier to set up a decent attack in Spits than in anything else, we should expect Spit pilots, on average, to demonstrate significantly higher K/T than people who fly other planes. We just don't see this, and in fact I'd venture that of the top ten players in terms of K/T, only one or two fly Spits regularly. I just looked up some more Spit drivers that I consider to be good pilots, and their K/T ranged from 0.0008 to 0.0016 (out of five pilots).
Try proving me wrong by providing evidence rather than gut feelings. I get this sense that you feel the need to belittle the Spit by assigning to it properties and qualities that it simply does not possess. It's yet another pathetic and misplaced superiority complex.
About your list of planes "beating" the spit, the only ones that have remote chances of being as favorable as spit for K/T are Ki and N1KJ. Zeke is a stone at hi and medium speeds and a poor diver while the Spit is very good at any speed and probably the best diver. Ki is slower and worse climber, N1K2 may be on par with spit at low level, but at medium and hi alts is frankly much worse than spit. Add two hispanos to the cocktail and the result is the plane with much better chances of getting more kills per hour played than anyother in the hangar.
How many furballs do you know of that occur at high and medium alts? Most occur under 10k, where all of the planes you've mentioned perform admirably. In addition, the centerline cannons on the Ki-61 tear planes to shred -- I find them every bit as effective as Hispanos. Though ballistically inferior to the Hispano 20mm, the four 20mm cannons on the N1K easily equate to two Hispanos... plus the N1K possesses a lot more ammo than the Spit. And don't even get me started on just how much damage the Zeke can take before finally coming apart.
I just checked the K/T stats on some of the better known Ki-61 and N1K pilots. For the Ki-61, K/T ranges from 0.0007 to 0.0028 and the N1K ranges from 0.0010 to 0.0029. Those numbers sure seem a lot like the Spit numbers. In other words... you're wrong.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
And now you've just hit upon exactly why K/D is such a poor objective measure of skill. What Khan does is boring, at least to me, and it takes more patience than skill. You also raise a question of which measures deserve more merit. If we go by K/T rather than K/D, Khan ranks poorly (under 0.0020 in every tour I checked). In addition, his K/S appears mediocre given the way he flies (~2 most tours).
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
If you think Khan's is low, just check my K/S and K/T. ;)
However, there's good reason for this. Like you, I am not into the numbers game. I prefer to focus on the "team effort". Therefore, when I log on, I look for the location that needs the greatest aid and that's where I go. Invariably, this results in taking off from airfields under direct attack. As everyone knows, this usually leads to very short, violent sorties.
Frequently, should the radar be down, I'll fly a recon profile (for this I prefer a fast climber with good speed, such as the Yak-9U or even a Tempest). Once over the area in question, I feed info back via the text buffer. Last night, I spent 40 minutes circling enemy airfields and locating task forces. In both cases, our attacking forces had realtime data that gave them a clear picture of what awaited them. During recon runs, you rarely get into a fight. There's two main reasons for this: First, you're usually too high to reach without the prospective attacker getting vulched in the climbout. So, almost no one tries to come up. Second, your value is in being alive. Diving into a horde is simply a good way to waste that value.
Guys who spend a significant amount of time in vehicles, ships or PTs generally have very low K/T and K/S numbers. Much of their time is spent in transit from place to place. So, these numbers really don't reflect on their ability as much as their mission profiles and vehicle selection.
As you indicate, anyone can fly a 262 and cherry pick easy kills with little risk. Moreover, if that gives someone satisfaction, then by all means let them have at it. But, for me, I prefer to play a different role.
Of course, K/D is an equally poor measure of ability, or more accurately, combat flying skill. I have personally encountered pilots who gave me a very hard time, whose K/D stats would be considered little more than average. However, if one looks at what they fly and the missions they fly, you discover that the stats merely reflect the mission profiles rather than their skill level.
Naturally, some poor pilots may rely on this to pad their lack of skill, but who cares anyway?
Personally, I look at two things:
1) Am I enjoying myself?
2) Am I contributing to the team?
If the answer to both is yes, then the numbers are meaningless. Except that is, to those who need the positive reinforcement that such stats may provide.
My regards,
Widewing
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omg owned
i can c mandobles syntax skillz are commensurate with his flying skillz
thx drive thru
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Guys who spend a significant amount of time in vehicles, ships or PTs generally have very low K/T and K/S numbers. Much of their time is spent in transit from place to place. So, these numbers really don't reflect on their ability as much as their mission profiles and vehicle selection.
Fighter k/t and k/s affect only that (fighter)category. If I were to spend time gunning on a CV for example, it has no bearing on my fighter stats.
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Originally posted by Apache
Fighter k/t and k/s affect only that (fighter)category. If I were to spend time gunning on a CV for example, it has no bearing on my fighter stats.
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
My regards,
Widewing
You're quite welcome.
BTW, thanks for the clear last night.
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Originally posted by Apache
You're quite welcome.
BTW, thanks for the clear last night.
It's my pleasure, anytime the need arises.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by funkedup
Once you learn how to kill without turning, it's pretty easy to get kills and live in anything fast. Speed kills.
Good gunnery is a must to be *really* effective using that style.
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"...being entirely unpredictable is often the best move in the bag. .."
Good point. Using the p-51 as an example, I'll expect the con to extend as most do, and so I just continue on merrily. Meanwhile, the guy has make a made an aggressive move and is on my 6! Has happened a few times.
bowser
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Originally posted by bowser
"...being entirely unpredictable is often the best move in the bag. .."
The FW190A5 is a great example of this...less than %50 gas,0 mg's and 250 rounds cannon is all you need to surprise the hell out of Spit's/Niki's and the like...:cool: