Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: easymo on February 12, 2002, 01:43:28 PM
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Ted turner has,in a speech, described the 9.11 terrorist as brave. I have to belive there is a big difference between what he thinks the word brave means, and how most of the rest of us would define that word.
I would imagine that committing an armed robbery takes a lot of guts. Bank robbers get shot up on a routine basis. On the other hand, I have never heard anyone describe an armed robber as "brave".
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TT's an idiot ..
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I'm left with the image in my brain of ole Ted standing next to Hanoi Jane doing the tomohawk..................... .
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Bravery has little if anything to do with morality according to Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: 1brave
Pronunciation: 'brAv
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): brav·er; brav·est
Etymology: Middle French, from Old Italian & Old Spanish bravo courageous, wild, probably from Latin barbarus barbarous
Date: 15th century
1 : having courage : DAUNTLESS
2 : making a fine show : COLORFUL
3 : EXCELLENT, SPLENDID
- brave·ly adverb
Hmmm... Courage... nope... no hint of morality here either.
Main Entry: cour·age
Pronunciation: 'k&r-ij, 'k&-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English corage, from Old French, from cuer heart, from Latin cor -- more at HEART
Date: 14th century
: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty
synonyms COURAGE, METTLE, SPIRIT, RESOLUTION, TENACITY mean mental or moral strength to resist opposition, danger, or hardship. COURAGE implies firmness of mind and will in the face of danger or extreme difficulty . METTLE suggests an ingrained capacity for meeting strain or difficulty with fortitude and resilience . SPIRIT also suggests a quality of temperament enabling one to hold one's own or keep up one's morale when opposed or threatened . RESOLUTION stresses firm determination to achieve one's ends . TENACITY adds to RESOLUTION implications of stubborn persistence and unwillingness to admit defeat
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Its an asanine thing to say in light of all the innocent lives lost. What a jerk.
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If you belive your going to a place where you get 23 virgins, All you can eat buffet, etc. Where does the courage part come in?
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Lets all ask why sandman is defending TTs choice of words?
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That Ted Turner.. he's soooo politicaly incorrect!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets all ask why sandman is defending TTs choice of words?
Been there, done that. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=14850&referrerid=2678)
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Just as brave as those mighty Einsatzgruppen "warriors" as they put old Jewish women and children into churches and burnt them alive...... They knew the local partizans wouldnt be too happy so in effect they were commiting suicide to, right?
What a load of BS! But it's OK sandman we all know where your loyaties stand when it comes to Sept11. Allahu Akhbar? Root cause?
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You don't know anything about me at all, Grunherz.
As to my "disloyality," I think that this would come as a surprise to the U.S. Department of Defense. I work for them and I am a veteran with 10 years of service.
Piss off.
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uh Brave does have a positive connotation. Coming from Italian/Spanish "Bravo", it is used for behaviour that is socially approved.
Of course, those who read Manzoni recall that the "bravi" of the sixteenth century were thugs who terrorized the populace.
Still, Ted has confused balls with bravery. it certainly took balls to do something like that; it sure as hell wasn't brave.
Anyway, you guys should know by now that media figures are generally too stupid to be representative of any political position.
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This just in... the English language is constantly changing...
I bet Ted didn't consult the 16th century dictionary before choosing his words.
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If they had any conscience at all (doubtful). It might have taken some sort of guts to murder all those people. As far as their own well being is concerned. I could not be less impressed. First of all, flying a jet into a building would mean instant death. Therefore fear of pain does not inter into it. If they were hopped up enough, on there superstition, to do it in the first place. Then they were dumb enough to belive they were going to paradise. And of course they could count on the media to make sure their names went down in history. This is a big bonus for nitwits. I don't see where brave, courageous, balls or anything else inters into it.
I once read about a man that drilled a hole into his head with an electric drill. Was he brave? Or just unbelievably stupid.
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I don't think it takes balls to commit suicide, especially when its over in a flash, and you are an Islamic on a Jihad expecting to become a hero at home and instantly go to heaven to be with 72 virgins. Its the culture.
Its also an appealing way to die for many of those who do not want to live anyway. Some people crave oblivion. Without any hard facts, I have a hunch that the divorced Palestinian female paramedic who blew herself up was one of these. Those individuals are people without the courage to face life. They want to die. "The cause" allows them to not die in vain.
Then there are the ones who apparently did not even know they were on a death mission, according to bin Laden referring to 911.
So you have those who are culturally brainwashed, those in despair, and those who are duped.
I'm not saying that fear doesn't exist in terrorists, and that
the resolve to overcome that fear isn't exhibited by some of them.
I'm saying its pretty simplistic to characterise terrorists as "brave."
I'm still scratching my head over that one.
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Just read your post Easymo.
We're on the same page
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but aren't chirstians going to the loving God in wonderful heaven ? If so, what would be a bravery ?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This just in... the English language is constantly changing...
I bet Ted didn't consult the 16th century dictionary before choosing his words.
no as he was to busy consultin his wine glass ... he's a loser, an over the hill visionary now with more double vision than common sense... scary to think he IS the majority share holder in the company I now have over 16 years vested ...
Ya'll did see he later appoligized, well sort of...
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Fd ski, no our general culture is obviously different from Islamic culture. Suicide bombing and killing innocent civilians is not encouraged here.
Further, among Christians its considered a sin to commit suicide.
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Sandman dont you feel ashamed when you defend unpatriotic swine like TT and when you support him calling murderers of innocent people brave? Do they teach you this in the DOD? I for one think you are lying about your military carreer, it's clearly a pathetic attempt to hide behind a supposed life of service while spewing filth about America. Why not just go for the gold and say you are a holder of the MOH......
And fdski your ever growing hatred and contempt for numerous aspects of decent western civilization is simply mindboggling. now you say all of Christianity is akin to the lunatic extremist fringe of recent militant modern day Islam. Why do you hate yourself and your culture so much? Were you abused as a child perhaps?
Wow somebody starts a thread about left wing USA bashing and all USA haters just jump out of the woods, and all of them are supposedly in the military.....
:rolleyes:
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"but aren't chirstians going to the loving God in wonderful heaven"
Damed if I know. Im not a christian. I do know that Mohammed led troops into battle often. Apparently he had no problem with killing. Jesus on the other hand said turn the other cheek. These simple facts seem to be the difference in our respective civilizations.
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Considering Turner sponsors ecoterrorists, I'm not surprised he'd say something like that.
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No bravery in forcing men, women and children to be vaporized, crushed, torn into bits, burned or made to jump 800 feet to their deaths.
Ted Turned is a confused man. To give those twisted suicidal people credit for bravery is high deceit in its gravest form.
There is no bravery here. Genocide is what you have here.
You also have the first attack that leads directly to WW3.
You folks had better make plans.
Y
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"Fd ski, no our general culture is obviously different from Islamic culture. Suicide bombing and killing innocentcivilians is not encouraged here. "
Could you please point out where in the Koran suicide bombing and killing of civilians are encouraged?.
Daff
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Could you please point out where in the Koran suicide bombing and killing of civilians are encouraged?.
Can't quote the exact verse but it's somewhere near the jihad. That funny thing about physical extermination of all infidels (that is people with different beliefs, regardless of them being combatants or civilians). Is that clear enough? Alternatively, check the verse that puts out all the crap about going to paradise if you die in battle with infidels - all the stuff about virgins, free food etc. It doesn't specify whether an infidel kills you or you blow yourself up - you go to paradise. Full stop.
I'm not religious but at least in Christianity this particular eventuality is covered pretty solidly - suicide is a big no-no whether you do it alone or take a few muslims, hindus or sunworshippers with you...
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Daff,
My personal doctor, Saleem Haq, is Islamic. I need to make it clear that I don't believe that the majority of those believers are militant extremists. Especially in our culture.
Osama bin Laden could probably point out to you in the Koran the parts that say the killing of innocent men, women and children is permissible. He has said as much.
Any suicide bomber will also be able to point this out to you. I think its the part where its says you get 72 virgins...
(makes me wonder about that female Palestinian bomber :rolleyes: )
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Sandman dont you feel ashamed when you defend unpatriotic swine like TT and when you support him calling murderers of innocent people brave? Do they teach you this in the DOD? I for one think you are lying about your military carreer, it's clearly a pathetic attempt to hide behind a supposed life of service while spewing filth about America. Why not just go for the gold and say you are a holder of the MOH......
:rolleyes:
I don't recall supporting Turner's opinions. I simply stated that his choice of words were not grammatically incorrect.
Please, enlighten us all with the filth about America that I have spewed. :rolleyes:
"Supposed life of service..." Nice troll. I'm not bitin'.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets all ask why sandman is defending TTs choice of words?
TT's choice of words may or may not be improper. It wasn't long ago there was a thread in here arguing how BRAVE Hector was when he knew he was going to die. Were the Japanese kamakazi pilots brave? Does the fact that the WTC was not a military target change the level of bravery needed to crash a plane into it?
And Grun....We should be free to discuss these things without being ridiculed and called a liar.
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While I definitely consider TT a jerk, his choice of words in no way contradicts the standard English language the way it is defined in modern use or dictionaries.
But since there are many people who think that they can hurt a few dead terrorists by maiming their own language, I have a compromise for you:
There are many millions muslim fundamentalists who wish us ill and they all believe in paradise and virgins. Nevertheless very few act.
Would you mind if I say those who just sympathise with terrostist or help them (with money, etc.) are prevented by fear from acting violently. I think you would not mind if I use the term "fear" or "cowards" describing US-hatine muslim fundamentalists.
Would a sentence "The terrosists are less cowardly then their supporters" offend your feelings?
Regardless their academic merit, "bravery" or better yet "fearlessness" are quite good for practical purposes.
When setting an ambush at an afghan mountain trail against an approaching caravan of four dosen mujaheddin the captan probably though like this:
"Two mashineguns in that ravine would have been enough to pin down that bunch if they were germans or americans and keep them in place for mortar fire, but since those mujaheddin are much more fearless, they will charge - so five machineguns are needed to cut them down before they close to grenade range".
What did TT mean by his bravery remark? If he ment that we should beware of those terrorists, I agree with him. I doubt he ment that we should admire them.
easymo: The comparison with the robbers is not appropriate.
There is a difference about the bank robbers and other violent criminals in America compared to the real evil terrorists. Most of them are on a stupid side and they fail to assess risks correctly or exercise the proper foresight. Their "work" is dangerous but they engage in it not because they lack fear but because they fail to correctly estimate the odds - just like americans who play lottery.
Whatever else the terroststs were, they were not stupid and they correctly estimated the odds of their death as 100%.
miko
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Can't quote the exact verse but it's somewhere near the jihad. That funny thing about physical extermination of all infidels (that is people with different beliefs, regardless of them being combatants or civilians). Is that clear enough?
The rules on warfare as set out in the Koran forbid the killing of non-combatants, the destruction of livestock or agriculture etc.
Here's some quotes for you:
God to Mohammed:
You are neither hard-hearted nor of fierce character, nor one who shouts in the markets. You do not return evil for evil, but excuse and forgive. - Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 362
The first successor to Mohammed set down these rules:
"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic
services; leave them alone"
From The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar):
Do not desire an encounter with the enemy; but when you encounter them, be firm. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4313
...a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah forbade the killing of women and children. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4320
You're confusing a particular interpretation to be a sacrament.
Jihad itself is a very subjective thing. Non-militants/fanatics view it as an inner struggle against vice/temptation/sin, not battle or as has been seen recently, murder in the name of religion.
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Miko. was the 9.11 attack a crime?
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One question: Where did TT say this? Anybody have a source?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And fdski your ever growing hatred and contempt for numerous aspects of decent western civilization is simply mindboggling. now you say all of Christianity is akin to the lunatic extremist fringe of recent militant modern day Islam. Why do you hate yourself and your culture so much? Were you abused as a child perhaps?
Wow somebody starts a thread about left wing USA bashing and all USA haters just jump out of the woods, and all of them are supposedly in the military.....
:rolleyes:
Seek help child.
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Gunthr,
I recommend reading of Old Testament again. It is filled with all sorts of horrible deeds which are just as bad as what we see today.
Killing in the name of God has never been exclusive to one religion, and chistianity thoughout the history has proven to be just as murderous as Islam.
Interesting study of habits of Islam conquerers in southern europe as compared to Christian ones has been published while back. They seem to have been much more tolerant to other religions ( including Jews !!! ) and far better behaved to local populace.
As for quoting passages of Koran proving premissability of murderer, we can also do same with bible.
Problem is not with text but with the interpretation.
You take few whackos of Bin Laden's type, who just Islam to their own ends, and use that as a standard rule to measure the whole culture.
In that case we should judge whole christian world in prizm of Pat Robertson ? It's quite idiotic, don't you think ?
Returning to original conversation:
If bravery is depended on what is on the other side for the "brave" person, then anyone who believes in post mortern life, is disqualified.
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One question: Where did TT say this? Anybody have a source?
Brown University. I saw the tape on TV.
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Originally posted by fd ski
Gunthr,
I recommend reading of Old Testament again. It is filled with all sorts of horrible deeds which are just as bad as what we see today.
See that's one of the reasons Jesus brought us the 'NEW COVENANT" and belief in that is part of the key to calling yourself a Christian. That's what troubles me when I see today's Christians talking eye for an eye.
You take few whackos of Bin Laden's type, who just Islam to their own ends, and use that as a standard rule to measure the whole culture.
In that case we should judge whole christian world in prizm of Pat Robertson ? It's quite idiotic, don't you think ?
To me, based on statements that you have made, it seems that you have no problem judging all of Christianity based on what some "Christian" nations did throughout history. Even though by doing so they showed they are not true Christians and there for more likely just evil people.
Returning to original conversation:
If bravery is depended on what is on the other side for the "brave" person, then anyone who believes in post mortern life, is disqualified.
No argument there :eek: ever heard of the saying "fear of God" well that right there kind whipes out any form of bravery. I don't see how these guys were brave. They were crazy or demented to do what they did. How on God's green Earth could anybody think that killing one of his children would please him? It seems to me maybe they were scared and figured this was the best way to paradise so they took the "quick easy way" out which is by no means brave. The brave thing to do would be to go back to their freakin countries and try and pull them out of the middle ages.
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Fd ski, LOL, you are a master of obfuscation. I don't know if you do this on purpose or not, but I'll try to respond to something that you have thouroughly mixed up and/or confused with several other's comments.
"I recommend reading of Old Testament again. It is filled with all sorts of horrible deeds which are just as bad as what we see today. - Fd ski
I never read, or claimed to have read the Old Testament. I concede that it may contain text that describes horrible deeds. I don't understand what your point might be.
"Killing in the name of God has never been exclusive to one religion, and chistianity thoughout the history has proven to be just as murderous as Islam.
Interesting study of habits of Islam conquerers in southern europe as compared to Christian ones has been published while back. They seem to have been much more tolerant to other religions ( including Jews !!! ) and far better behaved to local populace." - Fd ski
This may well be true. (I never commented on these issues at all.)
"As for quoting passages of Koran proving premissability of murderer, we can also do same with bible.
Problem is not with text but with the interpretation." - Fd ski
I absolutely agree. Certain passages have been interpreted by extremists as permitting murder of innocents. I thought my post was clear that I don't think all Islamic believers are extremists.
"You take few whackos of Bin Laden's type, who just Islam to their own ends, and use that as a standard rule to measure the whole culture.
In that case we should judge whole christian world in prizm of Pat Robertson ? It's quite idiotic, don't you think ?" - Fd ski
In my post I stated, " My personal doctor, Saleem Haq, is Islamic. I need to make it clear that I don't believe that the majority of those believers are militant extremists. Especially in our culture. Are you confusing me with someone else?
"Returning to original conversation:
If bravery is depended on what is on the other side for the "brave" person, then anyone who believes in post mortern life, is disqualified. - Fd ski
I strongly disagree.
As far as I'm concerned, the quality of bravery arises in a circumstance in which the subject feels very strong fear, but for the sake of an ideal larger than himself, resolves to persevere in the face of grave danger, death and/or other horrible personal consequence. (IMHO)
I believe that cultural brainwashing can mitigate the degree of fear that is felt, no matter what culture the subject is from. Without feeling fear, a person cannot be brave. Less fear = Less bravery in the above case.
But consider the person who believes in an afterlife, (post mortem life in your example) and who also believes that commiting suicide is a sin against God. If that person hijacks an airliner to kill innocent people and himself, believing that he is going straight to hell for eternal punishment for his act, I submit to you that he is brave.
I also believe "bravery" is a continuum. There are degrees of "bravery". I stated, "I'm not saying that fear doesn't exist in terrorists, and that the resolve to overcome that fear isn't exhibited by some of them. I'm saying its pretty simplistic to characterise terrorists as "brave."
I stand by that.
However, the semantics are not important. I still think Ted Turner is a jerk for saying what he did with total insensitivity to the survivors of 911.
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In my post I stated, " My personal doctor, Saleem Haq, is Islamic. I need to make it clear that I don't believe that the majority of those believers are militant extremists. Especially in our culture. Are you confusing me with someone else?
I was refering to this quote:
Fd ski, no our general culture is obviously different from Islamic culture. Suicide bombing and killing innocent civilians is not encouraged here.
Further, among Christians its considered a sin to commit suicide.
Implication was that their culture encourages it :)
No hard feelings ? :D
As for bravery, you mention "total insensitivity to the survivors of 911". But isn't that basically saying that he should be more politically correct ? A quality which most people on this board seem to hate with passion ?
He spoke him mind. He wasn't offensive ( as far as i'm conserned ), he just stated his opinion. He might be an amazinhunk, and i might not like him, and i might not agree with his opinion, but do we really crucify him because he has one ?
Bravery is nothing more then borderline ignorance as far as i'm conserned. It depends on personal system of values.
Let me give you an example:
In poland there was lot of awe for people who "bravely" threw themselves at the electrified wires in concentration camps, in final act of defiance.
I myself feel that bravery was facing another day in hell ( camp ), not dying on the spot.
So again, it comes to the personal level. Maybe in TT's world, what they did is brave. Whatever. Why start the PC witchhunt if ya'll dispise those so badly ? :D
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Originally posted by fd ski
As for bravery, you mention "total insensitivity to the survivors of 911". But isn't that basically saying that he should be more politically correct ? A quality which most people on this board seem to hate with passion ?
He spoke him mind. He wasn't offensive ( as far as i'm conserned ), he just stated his opinion. He might be an amazinhunk, and i might not like him, and i might not agree with his opinion, but do we really crucify him because he has one ?
Bravery is nothing more then borderline ignorance as far as i'm conserned. It depends on personal system of values.
Let me give you an example:
In poland there was lot of awe for people who "bravely" threw themselves at the electrified wires in concentration camps, in final act of defiance.
I myself feel that bravery was facing another day in hell ( camp ), not dying on the spot.
So again, it comes to the personal level. Maybe in TT's world, what they did is brave. Whatever. Why start the PC witchhunt if ya'll dispise those so badly ? :D
Wow I've read this post 3 times to try and find something to fight with Fdski about. I can't!!!! :eek: I think Ted's a jerk and don't agree with what he said, but he has the right to his opinion, as do all that come out against what he said. I just hope that he doesn't get crucified for it like Bill Maar almost did. This is still America.
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LOL
Fd ski,
I was refering to this quote:
quote:
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Fd ski, no our general culture is obviously different from Islamic culture. Suicide bombing and killing innocent civilians is not encouraged here.
Further, among Christians its considered a sin to commit suicide.
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Implication was that their culture encourages it
No hard feelings ?
I DO believe that there is a very definate sub-culture within their Islamic culture that encourages suicide bombing and the killing of innocent civilians, based on an extreme interpretation of the Koran.
We have a sub-culture like that as well, minus the Koran, but no where near as pronounced or wide spread as it is in Islam. All you need to do to see the truth of what I'm saying is to count up all the known terrorist suicide bombers and and terrorist mass murderers in our culture, and then count all the ones from the Islamic culture and compare them. Its just a fact. No hard feelings, bud. :D
Fd ski, you are a born challanger, and thats good, but you sieze upon semantics when facts wear thin. And you love to argue fine points, but you really lose the whole of the issues when you do that to the nth degree. And its not clear at all to me why you want to find some inconsistency in what I'm saying.
"As for bravery, you mention "total insensitivity to the survivors of 911". But isn't that basically saying that he should be more politically correct ? A quality which most people on this board seem to hate with passion ?"
- Fd ski
NO. I'm concerned about how that might make those poor people feel. Their still grieving. If TT were face to face with those survivors, I don't think he would have said that the killers were brave. But maybe not. Dude isn't known for his concern for people's feelings.
Anyway, :) I know the Polish people are good people who really suffered in the war... my great grandma on one side spoke only Polish, was too shy to speak English. I'm German on the other side.
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Amazing!
Playing the anti PC card in reverse. fdski, I bow to your brilliance.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
TT's choice of words may or may not be improper. It wasn't long ago there was a thread in here arguing how BRAVE Hector was when he knew he was going to die. Were the Japanese kamakazi pilots brave? Does the fact that the WTC was not a military target change the level of bravery needed to crash a plane into it?
And Grun....We should be free to discuss these things without being ridiculed and called a liar.
That would be "attempted ridicule," but thanx just the same MT.
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Instead of arguing over the astetics of rather the terrorists were brave or cowards you people should concern yourselves with the rapid erosion of our civil rights in the name of fighting a War on Terrorism.
Elfenwolf
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Please keep me posted on what I should or shouldn't discuss :rolleyes:
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Instead of arguing over the astetics of rather the terrorists were brave or cowards you people should concern yourselves with the rapid erosion of our civil rights in the name of fighting a War on Terrorism.
Elfenwolf
Even though I tend to agree, it sounds like a good idea for another thread, EW.
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If any of you think the mentality of suicide bombers is far from ours, I suggest you go rent that atrocity of a movie "Battlefield Earth" -- bad as it is, it's probably better than suffering through the book.
Suicide pilots destroying huge business buildings?
Suicide runs with nukes to commit genocide on a perceived oppressor race?
Yeah, that and more: it's all in there.
Now remember that, as bad as the film is, it was produced by people who felt it was their religious obligation to do so; and this "religion" has thousands in this country.
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dinger, i actually suffered though that movie :)
Which religion produced it ? Seeing as Travolta was in it, i would guess Scientology ?
I never heard of that connection, could you elaborate ?
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hey fed ski, Quit putting down the Church of Scientology. It's the only health plan I can afford.