Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: StSanta on February 12, 2002, 05:21:06 PM
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Well. Was bored, not enough people in CT.
Went to training arena. I thought perhaps it would be nice to check out those awful ugly smelling-of-ladies-perfume allied machines.
They're probably no good. Sure, got some nice laser guns, but they're allied planes. Cannot be any fun.
First, I try the P51B. Not too impressed with views, I take off and fly around for a bit. Find a newbie, blast him to pieces. Get two newbies on 6, shake them, blast them.
Nice low speed handling I think.
F4UDOA comes in with an F4U-4. We do a slow speed edge of the envelope minimum altitude fight.
Whatever he does, I can counter. Eventually, I land enough hits to down him. AM blown away by the 51B: this plane is a JOY to fly. The low speed handling opens up a whole new register of possible ACM at slow speed. Popping flaps at slow speed? Unheard of, almost, in LW planes. They usually stall out at 200, just above the speed when flaps can be deployed.
So, I try the F4U-D. That plane does a weird thing when it's close to departure. Loss of cotrol, then it yaws a bit. Very gentle though, quite easy to handle at slow speed.
Convergence at 500, I aim up on two enemies who just had jumped me. Few vertical maneuvers and they were in front of me. Tried to shoot: too much lead. At 500: pipper on target: . Those 6 .50s sawed the target into two pieces. I'm awestruck.
Am beginning to feel like the LW really should steal some allied planes.
I hear Saw likes the P-38. By now, I'm almost in a frenzy of flying joy - this is fun.
The P-38 is, so far, the plane that I like the best in the allied arsenal, closely followed by the 51B. Mind you: have only flown three planes.
The 38 is amazing. Pop some flaps, and you can go over the top at no speed. Spit gaining on ya in the rope a dope? Those two engines will keep ya steady, then you drop down.
Then I opened up with those nose guns.
d500, hit flashes all over the enemy. LW guns feel positively anemic and wussie like in comparison.
Perhaps allies aren't so dumb after all. I'll never admit that, of course.
Those planes are much fun to fly. Amazing.
Wonder if they come in LW colours?
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Do everyone a favour, stick with the jerry cans.
Y :D
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A moment of insanity.
After I heard the DB engine spin up again, I was cured.
I need to flame some of them ugly purty boy fnacy sissy girl allied planes.
They're too cute to be allowed to fly.
Damned wussie planes.
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SHHHHHHHHH!!!
Don't be telling the masses about the 51b!!
Vati
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Bah. P51B ain't near as good as it SHOULD be. If it only had an engine optimized for the AH fight zone insteada 30k.
The D model in AH will do anything the B can do.. better.
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Little side note B is faster at mid alts and will outturn the D :eek:
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he santa try F6F now, fly it once like a spit , and the second time like an energy fighter. Have fun ;)
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My favorite Allied planes are the P-47 and P-38. Some days I like the Jug better, and some days I like the P-38 better :).
In the hands of a good pilot, both of them are more than a match for anything else in the planeset, in my opinion.
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Wuss never lose turn around accelerate like F17 with Sr71 engines x10 planes :D
You'll be shto for this santa :D
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hehehe :D
Sooooo, you're a SL*T like me now heh ?
Am not too fond of the 51B, but the P38 sure keeps me on my toes, has a hell of a climbrate, does hammerheads on the fly, and once you manage to tame that compression it's a killin machine.
I have painted mine in dark gray already :)
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P38 damn good plane, only thing it does bad is the max speed, everything else it rocks, probarly among the very best planes in the arena, not to mention the fact that it is a flying Tiger I tank! :D
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Yup.......after flying 190s' for many years, and just now converting to the P47 in the MA the difference in lethality is very much noticable. The 8X.50s on the D30 are almost as lethal as 4 Hispanos, notice I said almost. I'd have to place the 4XHispanos first naturally, and not far behind the 8X.50s on the D30.
As far as modeling (FM) P47 compared to the 190 and 109, the only thing the P47 lacks against both LW models is ROC and acceleration. Although the ROC of the A8 and D30 seem to be very close. In high speed turning, 400mph, I'll take the D30, and to make your enemy overshoot, the D30 can drop two sets of flaps at slow speed, and have good handling, enough to shoot an enemy the blows on by.
I still love flying the A8 in the CT. and I love flying the P47 in the MA. Both similar in flying charachteristics to some degree, but with the 4X20mm option I use in the A8 one has to get much closer to his adversary to get a clean kill. Whereas the P47 is almost a "stand off" weapon in comparison.
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StSanta,
kan du skrive til mig? Jeg har en tilbud angørende den næste "Genskabelse"; men din Email er slåt fra her på BBS'en...
Ja, ja, jeg ved godt jeg har en mærkligt accent :D
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P47 D30 turns alor better IMO, at slow speeds atleast.
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As far as I can tell, down to 200 mph the 190A8 and P47-D30 turn about the same. The A5 turns much MUCH better than the P47-D30 at speeds below 250 or so. Of course, the D-11 and D-25 may have different handling characteristics, I only fly the D-30.
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Cc, D30 can get flaps out fast though, 190 has got to go down in 175Mph to get 1 notch out.
The D11 turns far better then the A5.
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Hang have you flyed G-10 since you had to do that 100 kill thing ? :D
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Originally posted by StSanta
The 38 is amazing. Pop some flaps, and you can go over the top at no speed. Spit gaining on ya in the rope a dope? Those two engines will keep ya steady, then you drop down.
Then I opened up with those nose guns.
d500, hit flashes all over the enemy. LW guns feel positively anemic and wussie like in comparison.
There was one Spit that declined to follow an obvious rope-a-dope. There was one Spit that did not take a hit from a P-38, nor allow a P-38 to gain his six. There was one Spit that lit a P-38 up like a Christmas tree. There was one Spit that watched a P-38 depart from controlled flight and crash.
I suggested at the time that your positive view toward Allied aircraft would quickly pass.
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hoolign tried a G6 for a tour to see how bad the LW planes were. He claimed it was childs play and I believe he came out #1 or #2 in it for the tour. I tried it for a sortie and it seemed untouchable I simply climbed or accelerated out of trouble with ease. roll made reversals very simple and all that stuff you read about 109s having horrible visibility is all wrong...
Followed a hellcat that was zooming up and just CLIMBED ... nailed him at 200 yards. Bad thing was, I got like 4 assists and ran out of ammo. Very good plane for newbies tho I would think.
lazs
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I've flown the F6F exlusively for the last 4 tours. That's some 1400 kills to 11 kills in other aircraft (F4u-4, P-47-D30, Ta-152). I guess that makes me pretty much a one trick pony.
I'm flying in the CT this tour. I decided to try to stick to one aircraft when possible. I picked the G6 for the LW and the Ki-62 for any PAC stuff.
The guns are harder to aim with than the .50s on the F6F, but pack one hell of a punch when they connect. I don't recall many aircraft surviving a burst from either plane.
The Ki handles awesome, but is somewhat slow and accelerates poorly. It will also tear Spitfires apart all day long.
The G6 handles quite well and can out-accelerate those it can't out-handle. It is competent against the Spit IX and can outrun the Spit V. And when you have that 30mm loaded... planes just come apart. I've survived a 3:1 against D11s in that plane with 2 kills to show for it. Its nice.
It seems to me its easy to learn the neuances of a new aircraft, even if you've only really flown one other for some time. The main thing is flying alot and figuring out things like proper engagement and SA. The aircraft makes minimal difference compared to those two things.
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To bad you tried out those sissy planes StSanta, could have alteast flew something that would put hair on your chest like the ever-so-manly p47-30.. no wonder the joy was short lived.
you missed out on the only 2 combat worthy birds in the U.S hanger, p47 and the other being the F6F-5.
if your keen on the luftwussy 109 im sure you would love the hellcat, since it eats the 109 for breakfast :)
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Am0n speaks the truth.
Wait a minute... who let you LW weenies play with the good planes? Yech, I'm glad I've got mine locked away at the Pig Sty away from all you leather-wearing weirdos. :p
*cough* I don't know what you guys are talking about, the P-47 and F6F are just crap... *cough* Now go back to your Waffle-mobiles and be amazed at how we kill you with such inferiour hardware! :D
Lephturn
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Heheheh Vaq, that was fun. You DID follow me up into the rope a dope.
I DID rope a dope you.
The problem was, of course, that I also spun out at the top, and I had no idea of how to get out of the spin.
So while you merrilyu flew along and laughed hard at my feeble attempts of recovering, I was in panic with throttle at zero, rudder oposite spin, stick forward.
Nothing helped. System: victory 1 by vaq.
Heh that was a good fight :).
Only thing: in the TA, you fly around. One makes a 'check 6' call signalling they wnat to engage. Sure. Then another. Then another. All of a sudden there's a 3 v 1.
Sure makes for some interesting training.
Fklew the 38 in the CT yesterday evening. Died 3 times: the icon settings makes it very much easier for the enemy to sneak up on you.
Managed to get 9 kills in it though: Man, those guns are like lasers cutting through the target. Snapshots at 500-600 no prob....
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109g6 is easy to fly and kill in if you fight inferior pilots.Try flying your G6 vs some of the more experienced allied pilots and its shortcomings are soon apparent.
I'd like to see laz in the 109g6 outfight a spit and a p38 when thespit is hard on your 6 and the p38 is booming and zooming.
and laz surely you dont consider the 109g6 easier to learn in than a spit9 or p51d or p47d30?
if we are talking about total newbies with no knowledge of flying the obvious planes, ie spits, p51s, nik etc for ease of use come WAY before any 109 model. The guns alone, regardless of performance, makes this true.
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109g6 is easy to fly and kill in if you fight inferior pilots.Try flying your G6 vs some of the more experienced allied pilots and its shortcomings are soon apparent.
You must be right. So far I've only flown it against the inexperienced pilots in the CT. Maybe I should give it a try in the MA where the pilots actually know how to fly? ;)
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Staga, I've hopped into a G10 a few times since that 100 kill pennance in the G10 for losing to Hristo..
IMHO the Gustav is AH's meanest LW fighter.. outclimbs anything the allies have, and without gondolas and with good gun accuracy is a most formidable opponet in a turn fight.
I have huge respect for the LW birds, and for the guys that can fly them well.. they DO require a significant attitude adjustment in the cockpit compared to most allied planes.. finess and style count... the allied stuff, while pretty, is also kinda bland in pilot demands. I can get outta a tuff spot in a pony a lot easier than I can in a FW or a Gustav.
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Get back on your dorka and quit greasin' my 38 santa ;)
Tiger I tank? You're joking right? 38 eats as much lead as the next 109/spit/yak. Only thing is its wings dont snap as easily as the others AND it has another engine to keep it going.. and 2 rudders too.
Aim for the wingtips, it kills 38 instantly. And its got a HELL of a big wingtip.
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Hell no, it takes WAAAAY more dammage the most other planes in the game, can't be compared to the 109 or 190 in any way.
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Gotta agree with Wilbus here, the P38 is up in the P47s league now. Before it was in a league of its own.. albiet a very poor one.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Cc, D30 can get flaps out fast though, 190 has got to go down in 175Mph to get 1 notch out.
The D11 turns far better then the A5.
I disagree wil, the D11 we have now is different from the one that was introduced. An A5 will turn inside a D11 at a low speed turnfight.
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I have to agree with Wilbus, ammo. The D11 wins against the A5 in a low speed knife fight. Frenchy and I demonstrated this to each other many times in the CT one night when we were the only ones on.
At first Frenchy was in the jug of course, but we switched off after several fights. If the A5 uses its advantage in climb rate to get above the jug, it can BnZ almost at will. The jug pilots only hope is to get in a shot after an overshoot by the FW. If however, the FW pilot gets too aggressive and tries to turn with the D11 for too long, its all over. It just cant match the jugs low speed turn.
Yes, this was the 1.08 D11 we were flying and I think I still have the film, if you're interested.
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Only thing keeping me from flying the 38 more is that dang 400ias compression.
I love my D30 jug :D
Keep to those leatherencrustedstalebeernsau sage wannabes ya luftwabbles, hehe :p
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About the B being faster, it is, but only between about 13-16k and again above 25k.
As for turning better, thats an over-simplification. It only cause the D is slightly heavier - ie bigger wingloading. But take up a D with with only 4 50s and you will find them evenly matched, but the D is faster at most alts, and has a better view.
The B is a nice change if ya wanna fly above 25K otherwise IMO the D is superior.
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Tiger I tank? You're joking right? 38 eats as much lead as the next 109/spit/yak. Only thing is its wings dont snap as easily as the others AND it has another engine to keep it going.. and 2 rudders too.
P38 takes WAY more hits to down than any other plane (except p47) at the moment, even in a frontal attack blazing 20mm guns at it. If I fight one in a LW bird I only win when I manage to take of a wing or wing tip and that takes allot of hits. Snapshots during the fight won't hardly do any damage (If I'm lucky I get a engine oil leak on one of his engines).
I made the stupid mistake of trying to HO one last weekend in the CT in a 109g2. After first merge we both turned into eachother and ended up HO approach. It went to my mind to break away from HO but I didn't (stupid mistake!!!!!!). I opened fire at 800 to where we passed eachother and so did he. We both got full sprites all callibers into eachother ( I don't miss HO's, neither does Animal).
I lost about everthing needed to keep that 109 in the air, he lost a wingtip.
It is one of the toughest birds in AH.
Apar
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Originally posted by DblTrubl
I have to agree with Wilbus, ammo. The D11 wins against the A5 in a low speed knife fight. Frenchy and I demonstrated this to each other many times in the CT one night when we were the only ones on.
At first Frenchy was in the jug of course, but we switched off after several fights. If the A5 uses its advantage in climb rate to get above the jug, it can BnZ almost at will. The jug pilots only hope is to get in a shot after an overshoot by the FW. If however, the FW pilot gets too aggressive and tries to turn with the D11 for too long, its all over. It just cant match the jugs low speed turn.
Yes, this was the 1.08 D11 we were flying and I think I still have the film, if you're interested.
I've never dueled him in the D11, but we did do 190 against D30. I suppose I'll have to try out the A5 against the D11, but the D30 turns about as well as the 190A8 in a sustained turn. Starting from 300 mph or so, if an A5 goes into a hard break turn, the P47-D30 will be able to pull hard enough to get lead once, or maybe twice. After that the A5 will be turning much better (I gained about 1 circle in 3).
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Originally posted by StSanta
Wonder if they come in LW colours?
Hmm... You mean something like this?
(http://home.worldonline.cz/~cz088436/camo/P-38E.JPG)
Or maybe more like this?
(http://home.worldonline.cz/~cz088436/camo/P-47D.JPG)
BUT if we get one of those, then I will demand to get the following one...
(http://home.worldonline.cz/~cz088436/camo/Fw-190D-9.jpg)
:D :cool: :p
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Did any of u noticed the 190D9 having the EXACT same climbing speed as 190A5 avobe 15k?
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AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRG GGGGGGGGG :mad:
I will hunt you all, you will die a horrible and painful death for desecrating a jug like that :D
I'll get you my pretty, and your little wulf too! :p
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Oh Yah... now they come out of the woodwork ;)
Last week when I wrote a post about how good the F6F-5 was now, I got boo'd down and told I was insane. Now, everyone wants to fly one :p
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Don't know how you cvhaps can prefer the 51D to the B.
The D, while more efficient and with ebtter vis/guns (I think), is a wussie plane.
It's all silver and shiny. All clean looking, like a girl preparing for a party with her dolls.
The B looks more like a LW fighter. Much preferrable.
51's can quite easily reverse the situation with FW's, I've discovered. When I'm in D9, my hope for reversing from being the attacked to being the attackee is to outclimb the sucker, or spiral dive, using my roll rate to get the 51 off my 6.
In pony, I simply loop with the chap. If he's aggressive, he'll lose. If he's in a D9, he might keep his e a little bit longer, but will in the end either have to run or have me on his 6.
Amazing plane.
Maybe I should use the MA as a training ground, and the CT as the real war - where I am LW...dunno. Learning to fly these allied fighters give ame a good idea of what to do and what not to do when fighting them in WL birds.
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There is an interesting thing about flying aircraft that you are not used to. In my experience you are just a little more careful in them, and you really appreciate the things they do well that your normal ride doesn't. The combination makes them seem better than they are. If you fly P-47s the German stuff seems to have amazing climb and acceleration. If you fly 190s, 38's seem to turn like a monster and the gun ballistics are a dream. Once the romance is over nothing seems quite so uber (Tempest excluded). The truth is that with a few exceptions most of the fighters in AH are competent aircraft and quite deadly if used well. Even a guy like Leviathian (who admittedly does not suck as much as Drex) can get an occasional kill in the pathetically slow Spit V.
Hooligan
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I strongly agree with almost anything StSanta said, at the moment i switched to almost only flying Allied aluminium in the MA.
Beside 1-2 Sorties in my beloved D9 everytime i am on (And thats really just because the dam thing looks so good).
F4U-1D, i extremly like this one, if u stay away from the nasty stall, i can do almost everything in it better than with my D9, even scissoring! And those 6x0.5 cals ensure that the 1st gun solution is the only one i need.
P51B, sweet ride, beside that limited 6 view. But it is so light on the controls, can keep E so well and turn on a dime. Today i used it against a YAK, i tried to B&Z that Yak, but he evaded. Than i simply cut throttle, poped out the flaps and followed him through turn, reversals and scissors and finaly ripped him apart. Every move he did, i could counter.
P51D, feels heavy compared to the B, but exellent vis and the 2x0.5 cals more, will save ur bud many times. It's my favoured deacker plane, seems the polished surface blinds the acks gunners.
P47 D30, very nice, too, bit slow in climbing, but roll, dive and turn are exellent. By using flaps i have no had no problem to evade a P51D that bounced me, than forcin him to overshoot and turnfight him on the deck. I surely did about 2-3 full 360 degree turns, than i gained a bit on him and the 8x0.5 cals roared and crippled his engine.
P38, great fighter bomber, but dont like the 420mph compression, but this constant diving and high speed flying is a bad habit from FWs. I am sure i could do better if i keep its speed in the 320-380 range.
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Hooligan is right. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I tend to fly all the aircraft (not just one country's), and while each plane has strengths and weakness's, none tend to have a distinct set of advantages.
Naudet wrote:
F4U-1D, i extremly like this one, if u stay away from the nasty stall, i can do almost everything in it better than with my D9, even scissoring! And those 6x0.5 cals ensure that the 1st gun solution is the only one i need
Naudet, I agree. I love to fly the Corsair, due to its nimble handling for such a big bird. But to say it does almost everything better than the Dora is a very large stretch of the truth.
First off, while the Corsair is a fast plane, compared to the Dora its downright SLOW at all altitudes. The Faster plane controls the fight, especially in an arena filled with La7's.
Climbrate and Acceleration are far and away better in the Dora. Just look at the charts. The Corsair climbs like a rock, and currently its climbing even slower than the performance charts, while the Dora is one of the best climbers in the game.
WEP, 5 minutes on the Corsair, 10 minutes on the Dora, enough said.
High Speed Handling is something they both share and both excel at, the Corsairs only advantage is a sustained turn fight and its use of combat flaps.
I guess you can say that the deceleration of the Corsair is better cause you can lower the gear at 300mph, and cause the enemy to overshoot, but its extremely dangerous.
The 6 x .50's on the Corsair are easier to hit with, but take a longer sustained hit to kill. The cannons on the Dora are harder to hit with (but easily adjusted too), but it kills easier with snapshots and short bursts, due to the damage being more concentrated. Both have large ammo loads as well. True the Corsair is superior at Air to Ground.
Come on Luftwobbles, I know playing with the new toys is fun , lets not exaggerate too much. ;)
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Even a guy like Leviathian (who admittedly does not suck as much as Drex) can get an occasional kill in the pathetically slow Spit V.
The important thing that you are leaving out. No one likes him.
Drex
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Just when I was going to start learning a LW ride...
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Originally posted by Drex
The important thing that you are leaving out. No one likes him.
I thought we were friends, Drex! :(....
-- Todd/Unloviathn
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Verm, agreeds. The 190D9 is the LW fighter for fighting the allies on even terms.
It has speed, acceleration, climb and roll rate over the F4U. In a 1v1 where the 190 pilot takes his time, unless he dies in a HO, he should win. Patience will result in the 47 driver losing e and alt, and in the end, his plane and maybe his life.
Having said that, there is one very important aspect that most forget when comparing fighters.
I call it 'over the top' performance - it's about how fast a plane can get over the top, and a what speeds.
All the allied fighters outdo the D9 in over the top performance. The G2 and G10 are middle range at this at best, but in general, LW fighters are really poor at this.
This is an important characteristic: it tells ya who'll win a loopfight. I've used the over-the-top capability of the P-38 and P-51B to quite easily reverse the situation on 190D9s - one flown by weapon and one flown by Naudet, both good 190 pilots.
Over the top really is vertical performance at slow speeds. This is also shown in rope a dope's - the one with the better performance can manage to keep his nose up for longer, at the same airspeed. The lesser plane in this regard thus needs to have an energy advantage to pull it off succesfully.
Another aspect is that of flaps. In most fights, LW fighters never get a chance to deploy the flaps. The LW bird will stall out just above the speed at which flaps can be deployed - assuming average g load, i.e enough load so that you aren't just a sitting duck for the enemy. I can count on one hand the times I've used flaps in a turn fight in the LW fighters. On the other hand, when I fly allied planes, like I've done for evaluation purposes lately, I deploy them almost every time. It's very effective and useful.
The 51 should win over all LW fighters in a 1v1 quite easily, except the D9 and the G10. These two are a match for the pony - the G10 only if the LW pilots have plenty of time and can point is nose upwards for a climb for a few minutes, and pretty much the same for the D9. Both can use their acceleration to dictate the fight - something that in a 1v1 is very valuable. If you can dictate the fight, you've won half the battle. And your chances of surviving are even higher than your chances of killing your enemy - simply disengage at will.
Or, the 109/190 could get the fight slow, into scissors, and then pull up into the vertical. The pony, if at a low enough speed, will be unable to follow and either stall out, or continue go ahead. It's still a dangerous maneuver, because the pony can pop some flaps and get the nose up for a quick snapshot.
Lastly, I now fully appreciate the difference between LW guns and RAF/USAAF ones. it is not as great as the most ardent LW supporters suggest, but it *is* far greater than RAF/USAAF pilots want to admit. D1.4 hits on a level running target is possible (done it on a consistent basis, ask Animal) with the .50s, although they'll have dissipated most of their energy at this range. This is an extreme example.
More realistic is the snapshot ability, and the 'death zone'. The ability to fire off a deadly salvo in a snapshot at d600-d700 (done it many a time) is *extremely* useful and in itself is a lethality multiplier. The enemy has a choice of either risking being hit at this range, or breaking so early that you'll be able to quickly counter his move and saddle up if needed. If you do not wish to saddle up, him turning at that distance still means you don't have to go to such an extreme angle for a snapshot.
Of course, deflection shooting is also much easier due to the higher velocity of the rounds. Due to the greater range and velocity, where LW birds pull the target under the nose, RAF/USAAF can see the intended target. Not always, but a good time more than the LW pilots do. The Hispanos pack a bigger punch than the Mausers.
On the other hand, the LW guns are extremely lethal *if they hit*. 4*20mm is not an unusal loadout for FW-A's, and 109s can potentially take either 1 BFG 30mm, or gondolas to get some killing power. The G10 doesn't need it though: hi speed and 13mm's mean (to my delight) that usually one snapshot is enough, due to the very focused hit area of nose guns.
Another aspect that can be commented is the big disparity in terms of JABO. The loadout is one obvious thing to comment. The P-47 can take in an overloaded condition about 2800 - 3000 lb (2*1000, 1*500, 10*HVAR rockets) as well as a toejameload of rounds. The top LW JABO, which is a JABO first and foremost, the 190F8, takes a rather mediocre (in comparison) 1450lb. Half that of the P-47. Climb rate (as it should be) is the same on the two at max loadout. Hopefully HTC will find time to add R4M rockets to the F8.
And the allied rockets are sooo easy to hit with. I'd used them once in a flight, slavoed at 10. Tried deacking a field with a P-38 using rockets only. The film won't show the ack firing at me, but it was.
http://home1.stofanet.dk/stsanta/films/p38jabo.zip for the film.
Even though I am a complete newbie with allied rockets, I manage to hit ack 7/10 times - firing at 3 at the first pass and hitting with all. This isn't a testimony to my skill, but rather an illustration of the very nice capabilities of the allied hardware.
In conclusion, I'll say something that will probably mean I'll be labelled a LW. I feel that there is a bias in favour of the allied fighters. It is not so much the difference makes flying LW a constant 'underdog' - the D9 and G10 are too good for that, but the difference is decidedly there.
Your mileage may vary.
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Leviathn: I think you are the closest thing to a friend Drex has got.
Think how much better it is to be:
Universally not liked.
rather than be Drex and be:
Universally loathed.
It's all relative. Compared to Drex you are popular.
Hooligan
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I dunno why you would ever want R4M rockets for the Fw190F8, afterall those are salvoed not fired one by one.
The only use they would be is to take down, maybe, one fighter hangar max... VH at the very least I'd think.
They are more for bomber killing though and would be a better loadout on the Me-262.
Although I don't see the bias, the fact is that this game is built FOR the 3 country MA war, NOT for the CT. That is a side project, scenarios are also side projects.. the MA is HTC's main focus. This in fact negates any "allied" bias, all sides are equal in the MA where HTC's focus is.
So what benefit does the Fw190F8 gain in the MA from getting all 20+ loadouts it could potentially carry when it still won't compare to the P47D-30's load out... since the MA is where virtually all of the action is, the P47D-30 will always be a priority to use over the 190F8.
So there really is no "bias", it's only percieved by those who are looking for one.
-SW
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Wulfe, you're saying that there is no bias because everyone is free to pick whatever plane they want.
Arguing like this: I can only agree with you. That's a rational and reasonable explanation.
However, if you change the way you look at it a little bit and compare planes from various nations, the picture changes, at least for me. The things that tip the scale in the USAAF favour have been mentioned many times before.
About the R4M rockets: I'd fire them in salvo: it'd be great fun. I don't need to snipe acks: I just want more firepower for my FW.
1*500 and 2*250 would be extremely nice too. Sure, it's an overload configuration, but it did happen. And the P-47 can be flown in an overloaded configuration to, so there's precedent.
It's my opinion, of course. HTC have done a great job with this game, and I'm quite sure that they've done their best to eliminate bias. A series of factor play in though: the lack of gun jams, barrel overheating. Ammo counters on all planes. Better low speed performance universally etc etc, as well as something as sound as economics. While AH is indeed a truly international game in the sense that people from all parts of the world fly it (although I must admit that aside from South Africa, I haven't seen any 'original' African play), one country has many more players than the rest: the USA. As Americans tend to be patriotic, it'd be a wise business move to make sure the USAAF planes get modelled correctly,a dn that any advantage they had in real life is accentuated.
Don't think I want to discuss this, even. I'm biased in saying the game is biased. Enough said: I've made my opinion clear, and I am entitled to such a one :). Naturally you're entitled to comment on it. And I'm entitled to ignore any comments I want. And you're entitled to ignore any one who entitedly ignores your entitled comment on his or her entitled opinion. And...
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StSanta. More so to make clear to me your position than to be argumentative, are you saying that HTC is lacking in thier modeling of LW a/c to include all manners of weapons/loadouts and overall performance or that there are certain a/c missing?
If it is the former, what specifically is not modeled, in your opinion, correctly. If the later, what a/c needs added? If I'm missing it altogether, please clue me in.
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I dunno, I've never been able to say I only like one nationalities aircraft more than the other.
They're all cool/interesting to me so I don't look at what's not modelled, but what is modelled. I've wanted an F4F-3 or P40 for the longest time, and really there aren't that many pacific aircraft. So I guess I could argue that there is an ETO bias. ;)
I think that if you get past expecting what you want, and just being glad you are actually getting anything, then you'd be satisfied just to have something to play that models planes so well- especially the Lw rides. To me, the Fw190A5, is a better performer in AH than in Il-2.
What I'm saying is, if there was indeed a bias, you wouldn't have many Lw planes at all (like the Japanese or Italians) and they wouldn't perform as well as they do right now. As is, the Germans are running #2 as recieving the most attention from HTC. And soon to get even more due to the BoB planeset.
-SW
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Originally posted by StSanta
In conclusion, I'll say something that will probably mean I'll be labelled a LW. I feel that there is a bias in favour of the allied fighters.
Why should that label you an LW (is that "Luftwhiner")? There WAS a bias in favor of allied fighters. Seems to me you're only saying that AH modeling is accurate.
- oldman
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Yeah, Luft Whiner. It's what all Luftwaffe are according to some :D.
The bias I am talking about is an artificial one.
Take the guns, for instance. Sustained long time bursts from .50's heat up the barrels remendously. Iread on a web page that the .50s on the pony couldn't be fired for too long and that such bursts would wear out the barrel and eventually the gun would jam.
Early hispanos had jamming problems too, and late ones suffered problems when firing long bursts. In comparison, the LW Mausers, while not having the knietic energy of the allied guns, or the flat trajectory, were more reliable in terms of jamming.
Talking equal engineering, physics would suggest that it should be that way
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Long sustained bursts from any gun will eventually cause a jam, German, Japanese, Italian,etc.
I think what you are referring to, in the case of the P51, was the problem with the positive G gun jams. This was on the B model and fixed by the D model- most B's were field modified when the fix was found, the problem was that there wasn't anything supporting the ammo belts so in a turn while firing the belts would get caught on a structure in the wing and would be "jammed"... not actually in the barrel though. The fix was to put half an ammo canister in the wings to support the belts.
That was the biggest cause of jams on 51s. In Helmut Lipfert's diary he describes many times his Bf109G2 and G6 suffering from gun jams in both the MGs and the hub cannon. So I don't believe for a minute that the German guns won't jam as often if you fire a long sustained burst from them.
The heat is not only from the slug rubbing against the barrel on it's departure from the barrel, but also from the heat of the exploding gun powder- and as long as it's firing the barrel will heat up quick- especially in the 109 since it is not an air cooled gun and is surrounded by an even hotter object- the engine.
-SW
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Good points Wulfe. Will try to find that web page again - it cited some studies done.
Might take some time as I got TONS of bookmarks with confusing names that still need to be sorted. Have a bad habit of just bookarmking without categorizing. Then I have a big sorting party. Then I accidentally delete the bookmark file when I format the HD.
:D
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Yo Santa, LTNS.
I am alive.
Mail me.
pt4h@yahoo.com
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Hum.
The 51 should win over all LW fighters in a 1v1 quite easily, except the D9 and the G10. These two are a match for the pony - the G10 only if the LW pilots have plenty of time and can point is nose upwards for a climb for a few minutes, and pretty much the same for the D9. Both can use their acceleration to dictate the fight - something that in a 1v1 is very valuable. If you can dictate the fight, you've won half the battle. And your chances of surviving are even higher than your chances of killing your enemy - simply disengage at will.
I'll fight a P51 in any LW ride, and expect I'll win. I'll knifefight a P51 in any German ride and expect I'll win. In my opinion, the G10 and the D9 are FAR superior to the P51 for knife-fighting, although I couldn't tell you any specific tactics I use, since I pretty much just make it up as I go along. The 109G10 will outturn the P51D in a sustained turn, and the Dora can turn with one for long enough to bust a cap in its ass, plus it accelerates better. If anything, I feel that it may be the German rides that are 'overmodelled' (with the exception of the Ta152, which is a useless pile of crap in AH) with regard to their historical reputation. May just be me though.
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Guess you're a |337 pilot then Urchin
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Nah, I didn't say I ALWAYS win, just that I always expect to :). Even the 190A8, while not incredibly nimble, is manueverable enough that it can almost always score a snapshot on the P51 during a close turn fight. Of course, you have to actually land the shot, which is most often where I go wrong.
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Just a note on .50's from a real life source I trust.
The 345th Air Apaches (those B-25's with 8 .50's in the nose) used to raid Japanese airfields using line abreast tactics and attacking in squadron "waves" about 30 seconds to 1 minute apart.
So, you'd have 9-12 B-25's flying wingtip to wingtip going across the airfield dropping parafrags in four successive waves.
Standard procedure was to hold the gun button down for the entire run across the field, letting the 8 .50's keep the gunners heads down. Runs across the field took about 20 seconds usually, depending on the layout.
My father, who actually DID this stuff, says yeah, guns would occasionally jam but usually they just worked as advertised.
However, by the end of the run the barrels were warping and tracer was curving out in front of the nose in a lot of different directions. They figured that was a good thing... they were just trying to tear the place up and keep the people in the holes.
The guns would continue to "cook off" randomly for quite a while after the run due to the heat in the chambers. He said you had to be REAL careful not to point your nose at anyone for a while after the run.
The gun barrels? Replaced after almost every mission... but they had tons of 'em. 8 barrels were cheap compared to losing a plane and crew.
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The guns would continue to "cook off"
Man that sounds familiar. I have read a bit on WWII, but not much at all. I have FOR SURE heard this.
DId you post this before?
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Yeah, I'm sure I did but it's been a long time.
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Santa,
I hate using rockets to de-ack fields, you have to get too close and aim too high to use em effectively. I instead like to use my D30 ride and kill the acks with 8-50's. A short burst from 1.5-1k out directly on target will kill em. A little evasive and you can normally follow through to de-ack one side of the field, then return for the other side. It's not recomended to fly a straight line here btw ;)
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I believe the missfire or jam rate for Browning fifties was 1 in 3,400 rounds. It was higher for the vaunted LW guns mainly due to the inferior electric firing of primers.
Obviously nobody bought the -1 "being superior to the D9 in allmost every way" thing but I will also add that the roll rate for LW rides is "just past" the update code or whatever. If you are an unscroupulous Luftwobble you can "warp roll" till whoever is following you runs out of ammo.
LW planes should overheat much faster than most planes and with fuel injection, they should catch fire (engine fire) much faster. the 190a models should also catch fire from the poorly placed oil cooler and they should run dry on oil about twice as fast as U.S. radials... The LW engines should be hurt easier by damage since they are more efficient (hp/ci) and run at higher RPM.
All these artificial advantages have allways bothered me but I can see that if they didn't give the LW planes some advantages they didn't have then nobody would fly em.
lazs
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So while you merrilyu flew along and laughed hard at my feeble attempts of recovering, I was in panic with throttle at zero, rudder oposite spin, stick forward.
I find that if you shut the engine off the nose drops like a rock pointing straight at the ground in no time fire it back up and hope the bad guy hasn't had time to get on six :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I believe the missfire or jam rate for Browning fifties was 1 in 3,400 rounds. It was higher for the vaunted LW guns mainly due to the inferior electric firing of primers.
Obviously nobody bought the -1 "being superior to the D9 in allmost every way" thing but I will also add that the roll rate for LW rides is "just past" the update code or whatever. If you are an unscroupulous Luftwobble you can "warp roll" till whoever is following you runs out of ammo.
LW planes should overheat much faster than most planes and with fuel injection, they should catch fire (engine fire) much faster. the 190a models should also catch fire from the poorly placed oil cooler and they should run dry on oil about twice as fast as U.S. radials... The LW engines should be hurt easier by damage since they are more efficient (hp/ci) and run at higher RPM.
All these artificial advantages have allways bothered me but I can see that if they didn't give the LW planes some advantages they didn't have then nobody would fly em.
lazs
You can take advantage of latency in any plane.
LW planes DO overheat faster than just about every other plane I've flown. Lose your radiator in a Dora and you have about 5 seconds of powered flight time left.
Engine fires aren't modeled, as far as I can tell. Only way I've ever seen anyone catch fire was by taking a hit to a fuel tank that caught on fire- so that 'advantage' doesn't mean jack toejam.
The 190A5 also loses its oil about 4 times faster than any other plane I've flown if the oil takes a hit. Lose your oil in the A5 and you have maybe 1 minute of powered flight time available- get your oil hit in the La7 or P47 and you can still complete your sortie, dogfight for 20 minutes, and land with your engine still running.
Can't comment on the last thing, there is no 'engine damage'- your engine is either perfectly functional or it is stopped, there is no in between.
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Urchin said
I'll fight a P51 in any LW ride, and expect I'll win. I'll knifefight a P51 in any German ride and expect I'll win. In my opinion, the G10 and the D9 are FAR superior to the P51 for knife-fighting, although I couldn't tell you any specific tactics I use, since I pretty much just make it up as I go along.
You must be a much better pilot than me, the only way i ever could knifefight a P51 using a D9, was when i were below 50% fuel and he just took of with 75%+ fuel.
Whenever i meet a P51 that is light, there is no chance the D9 can follow those turns.
With the G10 i agree, it can fight the P51, as long as the P51 doesnt dive and runs away.
on the other side, when flying anything like and F4U, P51 or P38, i expect to win any fight against any FW190 as long as he makes the mistake to start a knifefight, once he tries to turn, he is dead.
And to Vermillion
Naudet, I agree. I love to fly the Corsair, due to its nimble handling for such a big bird. But to say it does almost everything better than the Dora is a very large stretch of the truth.
Its a personal view, i must admit, won through experience. For the "normal" AH engagement it feels like the F4U-1D is superior to D9 in almost every aspect, from offensive moves to defensive once.
It may be just the way i fly, but when in D9 and attacked from behind, i can never turn the tables, beside by running away and forcing a draw. While in the F4U i can do it. With it i can do the "force an overshoot and get the snapshoot opportunity" defense very often. And the snapshoot than is very often crippeling the other guy.
Also i have much better success using the hog against LA7s than using the D9. Dunno why, but it works.
Also i rate the lethality of the Hogs 6x0.5cals way higher than the gun loadout of the D9. I have about 80% of all snapshots with D9 ending with my tgt flying away almost unharmed, while the snapshoots with the 0.5cals render about 7 outta 10 tgts unable to fly on.