Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: HocBao on February 12, 2002, 05:56:17 PM
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I have been flying the SpitIX for several months now. I am new to online flight sims and I am barely a mediocre pilot on my best days. I am improving, slowly, and I'm even starting to understand a smidgen of Shaw's book.
The YAK (and the LA7 for that matter) gives me fits! I can't out run it, I can't out turn it, I can't out climb it. It seems to be superior to the Spit in every way!
I became so frustrated one day, I jumped into a Yak and took it for a spin. I had a kill in less than two minutes. The YAK felt incredible - what a ride!
Am I so green that I can't grasp, let alone use, the Spit's advantages? Or, is the YAK truely a better plane to be avoided at all costs except when E is clearly in my favor? And finally, if it is a superior plane, why is its ENY value so much higher than the Spit's?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Hoc
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"Am I so green that I can't grasp, let alone use, the Spit's advantages"
No, I think that means you have great potential.
Spit will not teach you ACM.
Yak is a hard plane to get kills in because of its low ammo load, you getting kills in it means you got the stuff!
flying the planes that give you trouble is a great way to find their weaknesses.
I'd say you're on your way to greatness :)
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The SpitIX will outturn both the Yak and the La7 at most speeds. Dont be afraid to yank on that stick and blackout a bit to get those tight turns, just be careful and dotn totally blackout like Drex always does.
Nim
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Originally posted by Tac
Spit will not teach you ACM.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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If there really is a uber plane in AH, the Yak-9U is it. Almost as fast
as La-7, but slightly more maneuverable, it is among the fastest
planes at low altitudes, and does pretty well even up to about 15k.
The acceleration, like other soviet planes, is incredible, handling
is pretty easy. Not very good handling at extremely high speeds
though, and the roll rates are about average. Also climbs better
than 109s up to 5000 ft altitude. The Yak-9U in every way, is a
devoted 109 killer. (except weakness at over 15k)
But, it does not turn better than a Spit9. It is obviously an illusion
that this plane can turn as well as a Spitfire. It has a decent turn
rate at mid to high speeds, but low speed turn characteristics are
pretty bad(I once remember being out turned by a 109G-10 at near
150 mph).
Why it feels that way is because, as I said, the plane has smooth
handling and has very good temporary turn rate at mid-high speeds.
And if the pilot is good, he can play the 'Cat and Mouse' game with
the Spit. Chasing the Spit into a corner, letting him escape and blow
E, follow the Spit, drive him up to a corner again, wait till the Spit
makes a desperate move and blows E, let him go.. and on and on
until the Spit blows all the Energy he has so he can be out turned
even by P-47s. Then the Yak bites.
Don't play the game.
Against a Yak, the only advantage a Spit pilot has is guns and better
turn rate. You have to try everything so the fight ends up low and slow.
Trick the Yak into making hard moves to catch you. Tempt him to gain
gun solution on you, then keep escaping just out of the reach with your
superior turn rate. Drain the E on the Yak. That's your best shot.
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It isnt really THAT dumb Lev... The Spitfire cannot give you a 'complete' picture of how to fight. At least not in my opinion. There is almost an overwhelming temptation to turn and turn and turn when you are in a Spitfire, because that is what the plane does so much better than most of the other planes in Aces High.
Also, just flying a P-51, La-7, Dora, or 109-G10 can't really give you a 'complete' understanding of how to be successful, because the urge in those planes is to just run away if you get in trouble. You really never learn many defensive moves (creating an overshoot, timing your turn back into a bandit after he overshoots, etc.) if all you do is run away after you get into a bad spot.
I honestly think the 'best' planes for a new pilot fly to improve their piloting skills quickly is one of the more mediocre planes. P-38, P-47, 190A5 (very good planes, all 3), 190A8 (very challenging plane IMO), and perhaps the best plane overall that I'd recommend is the Yak-9U (because it isn't the 'best' at any one thing, but it is damn good in just about everything. C202 and C205 are also very good 'newbie' planes in my opinion.
Even you, who I (and probably many others) consider to be the best Spitfire pilot in Aces High, flew several other plane types BEFORE you settled into the Spitfire. I think that flying those planes and learning the lessons they had to teach made you a far better pilot overall. I think that is maybe what Tac had in mind when he said that the Spitfire won't teach you ACM.
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I think the Yak9U is pound for pound the 2nd best plane in the arena, second only to the Tempest. The only limitation to the Yak9U is the ammo load. If the yak had 400 rounds of 20mm like the La5, I bet you anything it would be dubbed the "dweeb" ride.
I love the yak, most underrated plane in the MA (next to the 205).
Nim
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mmm.. YAK.... mmm...
just love to fly it :cool:
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At very first I fly Spits as a.... Yeah, Spits. Then I think something more and 109s step in picture and learn some more. Again back to the Spit. Ok, now we talk!
Hey wait! La7s & Yaks! Dam those Tatjanas in next door! Still I have hard time with them.
Any way I learn from LW stuff some energy things which I could bring to the Spit flying. Nope, Im not ace at all but I still enjoy learn different things litle by litle...
br
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Originally posted by Kweassa
But, it does not turn better than a Spit9. It is obviously an illusion
that this plane can turn as well as a Spitfire. It has a decent turn
rate at mid to high speeds, but low speed turn characteristics are
pretty bad(I once remember being out turned by a 109G-10 at near 150 mph).
Since I fly the various Spitfires on a regular basis, and use the Yak as well, my experience agrees with your comments. It's accelerated stall handling is poor. Be real careful at low levels when you reef it in. Despite its excellent acceleration, should you bleed off too much of your E, any Spitfire model will eat it alive.
However, keep it at corner speed and it's a monster. You really need to work on your gunnery if you fly the 9U. My suggestion is that you hold fire until you're withing 300 yards.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thats odd widewing. The Yak9U is the only plane ive found that is most capable of stallfighting with a 38.
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That's probably because the acceleration factor covers up for
the turn factor. Chasing a 38, a Yak would give it a very wide
angle lag pursuit in case a 38 turns tightly, the distance parts
over 700~800 yards during this move, but those dang Yaks
catch up almost immediately if the 38 stops turning.
On the other hand a Yak is being chased by a 38, the Yak tries
a tight turn, can't shake a 38.. it decides to evade the shots
for just enough time, roll other way(since 38s don't seem to roll
too good at low speeds).. shallow dive and the separation is like
already 1000 yards by the time the 38 lines up again.
It's probably like the instance of 109G-2 and Typhoon stall
fighting I wrote on 'Typhoon' thread here.
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Thanks all for these great responses. Keep em coming. I am learning alot.
Hoc
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That aint stall fighting kweassa.
What I mean is a very tight sciscors or constant turning.. the yak9U can keep up and in many times (especially if its loop fighting) it can gain angles only at VERY low speeds. And this is on the deck, where neither can nose down or dive to gain speed.
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Ouch! Hands up, I surrender.
Must have been one helluva pilot you were fighting
in that case Tac, because my experience with Yak
at low speeds were treacherous at best.
It feels almost as bad as 190s at low speed to me.
I feel more comfortable in a 109G-10 stall fighting
a Spit5 rather than a Yak doing low speeds.
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I would agree with Tac in the case of YAK vs. P38.
At the end of january i flew YAK for a week or so, and it was no big think to kill low P38 from a co-E situation, especially of the P38 went into loops.
The key, seems that the YAK must constantly fly lag pursuit, up to the point were both planes are over the top, than the YAK can use its incredible accel, to get a speed advantage over the P38 and trade that next turn for angles.
If the P38 notices that its on the loosing end, and drops out of the loop, starting a scissors or so, again, lag pursuit will do it. Also u can chop throttle, hang the YAK behind the P38s scissors. If the 38 than notices that there will be no overshoot and thinks he can accel away, the YAK simply rams in full throttle and u will catch up with the P38 fast.
Cause i normally fly 190, i can say that a YAK suits much better to knifefight with a P38. If you use some good old E reserving moves with the YAK, the P38 will not get home.
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HocBao, the main and probably only clear disadvantage of Spit vs Yak is that while your Spit will, at some point, run out of WEP, the Yak9U will remain on esteroids forever. Based on this, a even Tempest is, in overal, inferior to the Yak.
Every time I engange a Yak with D9, I know very well that I will burn all my WEP just to kill a single fighter.
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The key to the Yak and spitty are actually the same (IMHO)...aggressive flying combined with excellent throttle control.
Way back when Lev used to give me occasional "lessons":eek: along with Jase when I was in the TA. Over time I reached a point were I could make things interesting (at least most of the time) and occasionaly snag a W or two. Little tricks like "the rudder slap" are all a question of relative angles vs energy....since the Yak accelerates like a bat out of hell and climbs like a scalded seagull it has the ability to wreak havoc with a spitty...as long as the yak fights in the vertical oblique and doesnt chase it's own tail vs the spit I'd say the Yak will easily hose a co-e spitty...of course pilot ability can change all that...AS for the learning ACM stuff...I'd add a few comments.
Four kinds of ACM
1) "knife fighting"...ala lev/nath and others...masters of the spit 5.
2) "E-fighting"(and dirty tricks) Drex and others P47/190 type
3) "Billy Jack" school of E fighting...I know you know what I'm going to do and you cant to a damm thing about it...a host of good sticks.
4) SA ACM...Tac and the other 38 drivers come to mind...good tactice often not enough in the 38 compared to other E fighters
Personally I think the best plane to learn in is the 205. If you fly it right you can kill anything with it. The F6 is also a great choice. ...as for the real deal ....still think spit V's at 50 ft is the real test.
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Hi everyone,
I have a question regarding the "rudder slap". What is that? I am fairly new to Aces High (4 months or so) and I have seen this on the message boards a couple of times. What is it exactly?
HOC, the only advice I have has already been given. Get yourself in trouble. Pick a plane that you like and fly to the fight between 5-10k. This is not a plan for survival but it will ensure many fights most of which are at a disadvantage. Fighting the odds will help you to learn good ACM. Film every fight. You can learn something from every fight, win or lose. You will probably die frequently at first but you will eventually gain skill. You need to concentrate on tactics and control. In other words figuring out what to do then being able to execute the manuever while maintaining control of your plane.
By the way, anyone can be shot down by anyone else at anytime in the main arena. Dont let it get to you if you get shot down, and dont get overconfident if you get a kill on someone who is considered a great pilot in here. Just go have fun buddy (and remind me that I said this when you hear me whining, I backslide at times lol).
Zaphod
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My best advice, I fly the Yak alot, vs the Spit is to get the Yak to slow down. Like around 150. Then the Spit has the edge.
IMO the Yak is a plane that hits a real sweet spot. It will turn better than planes that are faster than it and will out run planes that can out turn it. A very dangerous opponent for a Spit as it will "almost" turn with a Spit and can always out run it.
Always remember that in a Spit you most often can not dictate the terms of the fight, this is almost entirely the role of the Yak.
One mistake often made by many Spit pilots is "I can always out turn them and get my kill".
When flying the Yak this is what I want the Spit to do. I will keep putting some E in my pocket, especially if I see the Spit going for HO attacks. I do this by using lead verticle turns. The Spit pulls to make a killing shot, I pull to gain angle and restore E. I wait for the Spit burn his E, make a mistake or a missed aggresive move before I go for a shot.
To beat the Yak in a Spit, fly the Spit by always putting E back in your pocket, don't go for a kill on every pass. Know that the Yak has a low ammo load, he will probably not spray and pray. The Yak will get close and try to slide the dagger in. Use this to your advantage.
Remember: "Your opponent must first be beaten and then shot down"
Good Luck!
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Well, I like to fly the Yak a fair bit, but one of the comments has me wondering what im doing wrong??
Its acceleration. I met a Pj a few weeks back, we tangled and after a while we found ourselves on the deck, I guess our speeds were the same, mine was just a smidgen over 100mph, The Pj was around 600 yards off.
He straightened out and and went for home, ha i though, hes mine. I gave him a short burst at 700 yards just to make him turn a bit but he just kept on going, 800, 900 then 1.1, 1.2 . 1.4k I soon gave up because of his friends, but I was astonished at his acceleration.
What did I do wrong
:confused:
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That is rather odd, perhaps the P38 has better acceleration from 150 to 250 mph, and the Yak after that. By the way.. 100 mph? That seems awfully low to me, I've never gotten a plane that slow except when landing or in a rope.
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I remember being a "smidgen over" 100mph, the actual amount Im not too sure of, but it was basically stalling, and I had to level the wings and be gentle with it until it started to accelerate
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The Yak is a monster. It's fast, climbs good and turns so well that only spits, hurrys, nikis and zekes have a proper edge there.
So, vs the Spit, don't let the spitty lure you into a stalling turn. In a left turn when the spitty starts slipping away, break right high and come around again.
In a spit vs the Yak, the yak can come and go. That will change when the Spit XIV arrives, chuckle chucle....
So try to lure the Yak in a stalling turn. If he does not fall for it that means trouble. Secondary idea: turn less near to the stall and watch your six. As he breaks away high, do the same with more force. . if you're lucky you might get a shot before you stall. But don't stall.
Good luck:D
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"Rudder Slap" is hard to articulate but easy to understand once you've been on the wrong end a few times. Basically it's an angles attack initiated from a positive E tactical situation. Normally it's used during the opening merge but can be employed other places in the fight also.
All you do is employ full rudder (and reduced or zero throttle) to create an overshoot. since the rudder involvement also creates a change in direction you've also changed your aspect to the target. To the victim you literally vanish out of the views and suddenly reappear close in. Sometimes you literally can't find the enemy even as you get shredded from 50 yds since he's on the oblique views or tucked under you.
The spit V is the ultimate plane for this but any plane can utilize the tactic. I'm using my own understanding here but more experienced pilots can certainly add additional info and proper use tips.