Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Viper17 on February 13, 2002, 04:07:03 PM
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I was cruis around BWidows room the other day when i stumbeled upon this weird green horse. I look and see that its a Mustang B. I found a strange attaction to the green horse. probibly because it looks like my pet snake:D But other than that i looked at the armiment. 4 .50. hmm not that bad 2 less than the stang D. than i looked at the ordinance. 2 100, 500 or 1,000lb bombs and 6 tubed rockets. not that bad i thought so i saddeled up adugested my views around the canopy frames. Hit the button and went on sailing down the run way full load out and all. Sudenly out of my cockpit i see a 109 comeing strate at me. i drop my load and turn to HO him (or her);) as soon as i start fireing he drops out of the sky and hits the ground. My first kill in my new ride:D I got one more befor a spit got the best of me. Then i uped agen and blasted a La7, Then a IL2 and then a Dora. Prety good concidering i have no stick. ha ha verry funny bad choice of words i know:p But i found useing things people dont use verry much is verry good. Here is a Pic. I was suprised. but then looked at an A-36. The A-36 was the Mustangs Grandps (it was armed with 4 .20's and 1,100 pounds of bombs) They look so similar. maby the A-36 will show up with working dive flaps.
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great little AC. Even the gun package which noone seems to respect is highly underated.
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The A36 is a slow pig and doesn't have much use in the MA. The 51B, however, is a sweet ride but doesn't have much teeth. I usually require at least 2 passes on an skilled opponent to bring him down in my 51D. The 51B is a CQC aircraft - you gotta get close and hit in the right spot to take down your opponent. Oh yeah, forget taking down any bomber or hardened opponent with the B.
But then again, wtf do I know... ;)
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(http://members.shaw.ca/vruth/vruthsig.gif) (http://www.13thtas.com)
http://www.13thtas.com (http://www.13thtas.com)
vruth@13thtas.com
Dem's fighten words!
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It's a lot of fun. I flew it for about a month before the Big Week scenario. Not a great dogfighter but you can make some sharp maneuvers as long as you don't sustain them. Use the combat flaps when you need to turn hard. Be very careful with fuel. At 75% or above it has very strange stall and spin behavior. At 50% or below it has very sweet handling in all speed ranges.
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Guns just aren't that great. Sure you can make em work but there are lots of rides that have 50% to 100% more firepower. If it had 2 20mms it would be filling the skys amid cries of dweebstang.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by funkedup
It's a lot of fun. I flew it for about a month before the Big Week scenario. Not a great dogfighter but you can make some sharp maneuvers as long as you don't sustain them. Use the combat flaps when you need to turn hard. Be very careful with fuel. At 75% or above it has very strange stall and spin behavior. At 50% or below it has very sweet handling in all speed ranges.
Standard procedure was to burn off the Aux tank first, then the drops. This tank is located behind the pilot, and really screws up the Cg. Try it here too, it seems to cure the problem.
Another point addressing someone else's comment about poor guns. I have killed virtually everything in the planeset using just the 4 .303 Brownings in the Spitfire Mk.V or Seafire. It takes persistance, but it's no big deal. I would expect faster results with four .50s.
My regards,
Widewing
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Standard procedure was to burn off the Aux tank first, then the drops. This tank is located behind the pilot, and really screws up the Cg. Try it here too, it seems to cure the problem.
Yep the CG and inertia are dynamically calculated in AH, so the control and stability effects of fuel weight in that tank are just like it says in the manual. :)
Our missions always involved a long run on the fuse tank before hitting switching to externals. However, we usually only burned the fuse tank to 50% or 25% capacity, because we valued the increased range and combat endurance more than the stability improvement. If you are flying the Mustang right you are well above stall speed anyways. :)
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The P51B is lighter, faster, and less stable than the P51D.
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Widewing at least I have found out the hard way that when you face a squad of 4 ponies against you alone, you start hoping real quick for that snapshot kill capability of the 51D. 4:1 or 2:1 you can't afford to play for sustained shots..
Sometimes it amazes me how much difference it is, even when I fly the 51D with 4 gun package.
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It's amazing to think how culture has played up a 50 cal... Think about all those times people will gloat over movies where the single truck-mounted 50 cal destroys vehicles and people alike. It's a wonder that in AH, 4 of them on rapid bursts can't rip the aluminum wing off a plane, it's just seems to start smoking and lose little bits and parts at a time. Just my piece though...
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thats holywood for you
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Not a bad point, but I've seen what a 50 can do in real life. Not a pretty sight...
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you've also got to think about velocities:
stationary object and stationary .50 cal gun means full blunt
head ons mean increased damage
but from behind the the velocitie is equal to the difference between the velocitie of the aircraft
i'm proberly wrong about it, but its just my theory, and i'm no physics expert
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Actually, that is an excellent point, I think the AH modeling accounts for that. (Not on the N1k of course, which has killed me with 4 pings from 1.2k, but that's my whine for the week). I like the way the B model performs above 30k though. Decent speed and still has a great roll. What you would be doing at 30+ k in a plane though... I don't know, no one ever goes that high! In real life a lot of the air battles were fought at high altitudes. In AH though, we get into the Counterstrike-esque mode of playing and go for the first nme con we see, altitude or not!
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I've been flying the P51-B around quite a bit the last little while. As long as your not competing to put the most amount of lead into a plane, the guns are great. I routinely down 4-5 planes per sortie without rearming. Nice and fast, compression is easily manageable and it turns pretty well. Great little plane. Just remember to aim for the wings to get the most out of your ammo.
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The B is a nice plane but the D delivers better bang for your buck. Basically the differences in performance are so small that any advantages the B has are outweighed by 33% less firepower and much lower visibility than the D. If I want kills I take the D, the B is pretty much just for scenarios for me...
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UBER PLANE!!! :D
Well, almost anyway, great plane, enough arement, lots of ammo and fast with a terrific turn rate.
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Been flying the P51B in the CT.
To my surprize, I was able to out-turn both the 109G2 and G6 in it. Had heard that the Mustang could absolutely not do that.
Wondr if that is still possible with the P51D:confused:
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Originally posted by Angus
Been flying the P51B in the CT.
To my surprize, I was able to out-turn both the 109G2 and G6 in it. Had heard that the Mustang could absolutely not do that.
Wondr if that is still possible with the P51D:confused:
With combat flaps, the P51 could outturn these heavier 109's. Especially if they had gun pods on.
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Originally posted by DaLadyzMon
Actually, that is an excellent point, I think the AH modeling accounts for that. (Not on the N1k of course, which has killed me with 4 pings from 1.2k, but that's my whine for the week). I like the way the B model performs above 30k though. Decent speed and still has a great roll. What you would be doing at 30+ k in a plane though... I don't know, no one ever goes that high! In real life a lot of the air battles were fought at high altitudes. In AH though, we get into the Counterstrike-esque mode of playing and go for the first nme con we see, altitude or not!
I'll occasionally fly to 30k+ hunting Buffs and Lancs deep inside enemy territory. Up there, you are generally immune from harassment. A few weeks ago, I was returning from just such a sortie when I encountered two La-7s at 27k. What these knuckleheads were doing up there is anyone's guess. Anyway, I was hauling along at about 410 mph in a Mustang, so I executed a chandelle, and raced in from their high 6. I killed one when he tried to go vertical, the second turned too hard and spun. I saw no advantage in chasing him deep over Bish country, so I just headed home. These guys should have known that the La-7 is pig up that high, and has no business tangling with high altitude fighters in their rarified environment. Live and learn, I suppose.
My next experiment is to try Buff hunting using a P-47D-30 armed with HVAR rockets. I want to see if they are effective at killing them outside of gun range. I'll post the results on this board.
My regards,
Widewing
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I tried that widewing, but the rockets droped so much that I just could't get enough lead to accurately hit the lancaster. By the time I was aligned to launch the rockets, he pinged my wing off.
Rockets require a 6 approach and that's just not an option with aces high buff modeling.
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It does have wimpy guns. They are pretty easy to hit with but if the bandit is maneuvering you usually need more than one pass. If you fly against cannon armed planes (like in Big Week) you quickly discover that this means you have to use different tactics than the enemy. The enemy can rip you apart with one snapshot and will gamble to get that shot. You can not usually kill with a snap shot so you can't gamble like that.
You have to plan on two or three passes to knock down the enemy. However you have a good chance of causing engine damage with a good snapshot. So you end up getting a lot of assists and "mission kills" where you force the enemy to glide home but don't get a kill award. If you had cannons like the enemy, they would have been floating down in little tiny pieces. For scenarios, mission kills are fine, but it's not a great plane to rack up individual scores.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
I tried that widewing, but the rockets droped so much that I just could't get enough lead to accurately hit the lancaster. By the time I was aligned to launch the rockets, he pinged my wing off.
Rockets require a 6 approach and that's just not an option with aces high buff modeling.
I was afraid that this might be the case. However, since I prefer to attack Buffs in the vertical plane, perhaps I can figure out what lead I'll need to get a hit. Nonetheless, I expect that it will be an exercise in futility......
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, this works for me in P-38 (though it still doesnt work most of the time :( )
Set salvo to 10, delay to .2 (.20). Put your plane directly in front of the buff's nose and with either 5k alt adv or disadv.
When buff is d3.0, split-s or climb, TRIM the plane so the vector is steady and fire the rockets 2 buff lengths in front of its path.
The delay in the fire of the rockets will give you a better margin at having 1 of them hit.
Another trick is to power dive on the buff from high 12 oc and fire the rockets at the buffs nose when below d1.0 while corckscrewing in the direction of the buff's path. That gives you a nice wide pattern of rockets flying in the buff's path.. more chances to hit.
Problem is the compression hehe. Wish them dive flaps worked *G*
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I think it teaches patchents. and teaches to concerve amo. not to blow through it like its nothing. Thea is the Mustang B way:cool:
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I have never had any problem downing any plane in AH with the P-51B. Buffs I have doned in a single pass with it. The key to attacking Buffs with the P-51B is to postion yourself approximately 5K above the bomber, get slightly ahead of it, then roll 180 and pull over and make a vertical firing pass on the buff and then zoom back up if you need to make another pass. Aim for the midwing point.
As for stability, I don't know why you would say that the P-51B was less stable then the P-51D. Based on everything I have read it was the P-51D which was less stable due to the bubble canopy creating turbulence on the vertical tail due to flow separation. That's why they added the dorsal fillet.
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Or just shoot for the wingtips. *G*
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The P51D was heavier and had dorsal fins. This is why it was more stable than the P51B.
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Originally posted by fdiron
The P51D was heavier and had dorsal fins. This is why it was more stable than the P51B.
Both the P-51B/C and the P-51D demonstrated reduced directional stability over the P-51A. This is largely attributed to the larger and heavier propeller fitted with the Packard Merlin engine. However, when the fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy installation, the problem became even more pronounced. After several hundred P-51Ds were in service, North American devised a solution in the form of the dorsal fin. This increased the side plate area to roughly the same as the P-51B. A rudder anti-balance tab was added to increase (that's right, I said increase) the rudder pedal forces at high speed. This aided as a damper to reduce the twitchiness of the aircraft in high-speed dives.
In terms of performance, The B was faster and turned marginally better as well. Those pilots who were fortunate enough to have a Malcom hood installed on their P-51B or C, were not happy to switch to the newer model, despite its better gun package.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Vruth
The A36 is a slow pig and doesn't have much use in the MA. [/B]
Disagree.
Below 15K the A-36 should do quite well. The A-36 also adds a pair of .50's under the nose.
The early mustang we need is the P-51 (no suffix) though...4x20mm!
-Smut
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A P-51 with 4 hispanos of death? Muahhahahahaahhaha
Unfortunately, since so few were produced, and the havoc that other x4 hispano aircraft created in AH, I doubt we will ever see it.
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Originally posted by Smut
Disagree.
Below 15K the A-36 should do quite well. The A-36 also adds a pair of .50's under the nose.
The early mustang we need is the P-51 (no suffix) though...4x20mm!
-Smut
Smut! Is that you I see from time to time with the handle "CJ" in the Main? Good to see ya mate!
(PS: I could hear the Hispano Nazi's whining already with an A36 in the arena! :D )
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51a should be a fun arena plane so I hope they add it someday. The guys who are going to whine about a 51a with 4x20mm are going to be whining about something anyway. There is really no downside to adding it.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Smut! Is that you I see from time to time with the handle "CJ" in the Main? Good to see ya mate!
(PS: I could hear the Hispano Nazi's whining already with an A36 in the arena! :D )
Rip! Good to see you too. My online handle is still Smut. :)
I haven't been online in AH for a while now, not by choice however. I've been building out my basement office and as a result my computer hookup is pretty temporary...no joysticks are hooked up for example. I'm getting close to finishing...the electrician comes tomorow morning to do the final hookup and inspect my wiring, I should have the office ceiling up by the end of the day tomorrow, and with luck the floor will be in by the end of the day on Monday. As part of the work I built out a pretty nice little model shop as well, which is pretty much finished except for the spray booth vent.
Lastly, and back on topic...the A-36 had 6x.50 cal MG. The P-51 had 4x20mm, and the P-51A had 4x.50 MG.
-Smut
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'luck on the house!
Eewww...a Allison with 4X20's? hell, that wouldn't be perked!
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Originally posted by BenDover
you've also got to think about velocities:
stationary object and stationary .50 cal gun means full blunt
head ons mean increased damage
but from behind the the velocitie is equal to the difference between the velocitie of the aircraft
i'm proberly wrong about it, but its just my theory, and i'm no physics expert
Obviously. ;)
The velocity is equal to the muzzle velocity of the projectile plus or minus the difference in speed of the aircraft.
D
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Heya,
I was in the TA the other day with St.Santa. He had a P-51B and I had an F4U-4. I tried every stupid F4U trick I could think of and a few I made up. I could not shake him. Even with full flap WEP on the deck he clung to me like glue I could not turn inside him. In any case the next time I need a long range fighter I will try the P-51b for sure.
Weight and Wing area's
F4U-4
HP= 2450
Weight= 12,420LBS
Wing area= 314 sq Ft
Power Loading= 5.069
Wing loading=39.55
P-51B
HP=1490
Weight=9245LBS
Wing Area= 235.75
Power loading= 6.20
Wing Loading= 39.21
P=51D
HP=1720
Weight = 9611LBS
Power Loading= 5.58
Wing Loading= 40.76
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4 Hispano Mustangs were as numerous as Ta 152, and saw a heck of a lot more combat. :)