Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: Vulcan on February 16, 2002, 04:01:13 PM
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in the Big Week scenario I had the unpleasant experience of being with a group of people that:
- didn't know what a re-arm pad was
- had no idea about DTs
- generally looked like they had signed up for AH to try this out
- a Co that turned up late half the time and not at all the rest
All in all it was a disaster.
Can we please make sure that people who are genuinely into scenario's get priority. This lottery system leaves me wondering if I'm gonna have the same unpleasant experience again.
I don't know what a good solution is, maybe priority slots based on previous attendance, or ToD participation.
We need some sort of player-scenario-tod ranking system maybe?
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If we don't allow these new people into scenarios, where do you think a big huge scenario-worshipping base can come from?
I agree with one-thing: Many people DID join Aces High to try out the scenario. Is there anything wrong with that? Alot of times, the scenario makes the game for people. I know many a people who fly in the MA once, twice a month, yet every Multi-frame scenario they are there as COs, XOs, GLs, or the loyal pilots you would be lost without seeing them there.
New scenario player's are one of the best aspects of a group. You see them evolve. Pre-Frame 1/Frame 1, they get frustrated, but when they hit that 'special moment', they fall in love. Frame 2, they start becoming one of the better aces of the group. Frame 3, that newbie is giving neat ideas for your group to do. Usually off base, but, he has the enthusiasm. Frame 4, they become the 3rd leader in the group, answering questions, giving the posreps. After Frame 4, they're ready to be a GL in the next scenario.
There are VERY simple ways to avoid this frustration. Schedule group practices just with your group. Teach them the basics, how to fly this plane, and radio courtesy. If your GL seems his doing nothing, take charge. You schedule practices, round up the troops. The GL may lead you on battle-day, but you'll be the one people would rather listen too. And the CO would most-likely trust you more.
If you have a problem with the CO, complain to the CO/XO first and foremost. Tell them your concerns, and why its hurting the team. If they dont improve or ignore you, keep pressing. If they still seem incompetent, leave it at that. You may be hated by the CO near the end, but, this isn't the CO's team. It your team along with everyone elses. If you feel you have an idea to help the team, speak it. The CO may dismiss it or like it, but you would have generally helped the team on way or another.
Also, it is often hard to tell who makes a good CO or a bad CO. A great XO doesn't always translate into a good CO. COs must be battle-tested before you know how well they're gonna do.
In short, the best way to avoid frustration with new scenario players, train them to be better than you :)
Aub
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Can we please make sure that people who are genuinely into scenario's get priority.
Let me tell you something. I took part in my first scenario very soon after I first started flying in Air Warrior, and if it hadn't been for that one occasion when I walked on to be a Kate gunner, I might never have become hooked on scenarios in general!
Of course new players are going to try scenarios... perhaps the number of new players was more than usual for Bigweek with it coinciding with the huge influx of former Air Warriors, but they tended to be new to Aces High rather than new to scenarios - many of them (us!) have been flying scenarios for years! Not surprising then that many of them didn't know about re-arm pads or drop tanks, as we didn't have them in AW... :)
New players need to be able to have a go at scenarios, and rather than criticising them for their lack of knowledge, it would be far better to help them to get used to how things are done here. I found my first Aces High scenario, as a walkon in Hostile Shores, extremely bewildering, with everything being so new, but I was made to feel welcome and encouraged to come back for further frames, resulting in me being extremely keen to sign up as a registered player when Bigweek came along. I'm sorry you felt Bigweek was a bad experience for you, and hope you will have a better one in Invasion: Sicily. :)
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Newbies are important. But it's also important that scenario squads feature a wide range of talent. My understanding is that Aub and FunkedUp pick the unit leaders.
If you're having trouble with clueless pilots, I suggest writing up a "Clue sheet" that you can then encourage the commander of the side to distribute. In fact, every set of orders should have at the end of it a whole bunch of boilerplate indicating SOP. There's no need to make pilots look through five different sets of documents to find stuff like "show up at t-15" or "rearm at the pad".
Bigweek was also a particular case because we had this influx of AW players who had hardly any experience in AH and who thought they knew how scenarios worked. In other words, we had a bunch of newbies who didn't know they were newbies. That's the worst kind.
I think this one will be alittle better. EAch scenario you run, each TOD, each Snapshot, the more disciplined AH pilots become.
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There is a difference between a 'newbie' to scenario's AND someone who is playing the game for the first time.
The experience I had involved many people who a) didn't RTFM on the basics b) hadn't even bothered to practise.
As for this:
"If you have a problem with the CO, complain to the CO/XO first and foremost. Tell them your concerns, and why its hurting the team. If they dont improve or ignore you, keep pressing. If they still seem incompetent, leave it at that. You may be hated by the CO near the end, but, this isn't the CO's team. It your team along with everyone elses. If you feel you have an idea to help the team, speak it. The CO may dismiss it or like it, but you would have generally helped the team on way or another. "
Try listening harder. The CO turned up 5 mins before the start of frames 1 and 2, and not at all frames 3 and 4.
On top of that roughly half the registered pilots for the squad i was in NEVER put an appearance in.
I don't want to ban newbies from scenarios. I'm just pointing out that slots got filled in BW by people who never showed, including CO level.
Do you really think newbies enjoy turning up, finding half the squad never shows, the CO doesn't show up, etc? Is that addictive? As for practising sometimes its hard when your time zones range from GMT+12 to GMT-5. And not all of us want to be a CO.
Two things need to happen, experienced scenario pilots need to be tracked and recognised so that those that will show up are given priority. Secondly, newbies need to be seeded with experienced squads.
In HS I was lucky enough to fly with the 56th, what an experience. THAT got me hooked on scenarios. If I didn't know better and was a newbie the BW experience would have totally turned me away from scenarios. The experience with the 56th completely blew me away, the teamwork, radio chat, everything except for the hilarity of watching Jug pilots auger Hawgs on recovery was amazing.
Currently newbies tend to get thrown into their own little squads. With no experience. This was blatantly obvious in BW.
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2 things to remember.
There are always open spots for experienced scenario pilots to walk on ( I never seen 100% attendence ) for any frame if for some reason they did not make the reg process.
Also if you find out some people can not make it in your squad you can always have people take their place and join a squad for the rest of the scenario.
Also the CO's will have more say asto who goes into what squads so you should see a better mix of pilots within squads.
Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
Scenario CM Staff
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Try listening harder. The CO turned up 5 mins before the start of frames 1 and 2, and not at all frames 3 and 4.
On top of that roughly half the registered pilots for the squad i was in NEVER put an appearance in.
I don't want to ban newbies from scenarios. I'm just pointing out that slots got filled in BW by people who never showed, including CO level.
Do you really think newbies enjoy turning up, finding half the squad never shows, the CO doesn't show up, etc? Is that addictive? As for practising sometimes its hard when your time zones range from GMT+12 to GMT-5. And not all of us want to be a CO.
The CO didn't show up? Same advice :) The CO has an email, right? Email that CO, tell him your concerns. If that CO doesn't acknowledge 'your right, I am hurting the scenario and team' he has got his head shoved up his ass. And I wouldn't be so quick to condemn him for not showing up Frames 3 and 4. What if he had a death in the family? COs WILL miss days, not by their own doing. I even missed a day of the scenario I designed and CMed because of real life issues that popped up during the week that was inavoidable.
If the practice is bad for you, schedule your own. I know we have many overseas players: I often scehdule one or two practices a week for the Euro bunch. Ask the CO to arrange a Euro-friendly practice. 90% of the time, the CO will gleefully oblige and set something up the allow the same training for everyone.
Exactly, not everyone wants to be COs, but they complain when COs/CMs don't dothe job as they think they should :)
Aub
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We're all pretty much ont he same page.
In that "Command" post I made that nobody read, this was one of my major points.
It is the job of the commander at any level to maintain unit morale. This includes giving the people in a squad the impression that they are capable of winning. If you've got 50% attendance, someone screwed up bigtime.
As you point out, enjoyment in a scenario depends a lot on who you end up flying with. If you fly with a good, disciplined unit, a scenario can be amazing, even if everybody's shot down in the first ten minutes.
So what does this mean to you and me?
Uh... if you're picking flight leaders, pick good ones. Use your experience to figure out who is good at what -- leaders have different talents. So don't just pick the hot sticks, pick the guys that can make an average group function better. Likewise, while you want to keep units together -- because no leader works alone, but usually has 2 or 3 people who are used to performing necessary ancillary tasks -- don't create "übersquads" of hot sticks. Spread it around. If you create a squad of crappy players, they ain't gonna show for the next frame.
At whatever level, from flunky to supreme commander: work! create checklists, document stuff, draw up maps, evaluate hardware. The more work you and I put in, the higher overall morale will be.
*DON'T* piss on the floor in your side's forum. Nothing kills that team spirit like someone throwing a hissy fit.
*DON'T* let anything anybody on the other side does get to you. Remember this is a war, and the other side can win by demoralizing you. If half your guys don't show up, and you get all the walkons, you have lower-quality units that will lose easily.
--Make every frame a victory. Scoring doesn't matter. What matters is perceived performance. If your side gets pummeled in a frame, yet pulls off a daring raid, you might get the morale victory.
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Scenarios should cater to the guys that have an interest in them. Folks who have been here and supported the great majority of umm.
Not some 2 week wonder who doesnt know what rearm pad is.
Someone who knows the difference between the plane set and has a basic understanding of the performance difference.
Scenarios arent the place to break in a n00b. Luckily my flight in BW was made up of 2 long time squads. The 2 other guests we had were vets.
But in each frame we got some n00b 1 kill shootered himself otr. the other took off before being ordered (auto take off) then augered trying to land. 1 made it almost through the frame because he got lost and never did catch up and when he final got to the nme he instantly died.
I think this type of stuff is what vulcan is talking about. Because I cant believe some one would register 2 - 3 weeks in advance and not know the very basics about ah or the plane they picked to fly.
As fer his co not showing hes referring to his fl. Fariz emailed every fl and posted numerous times on the bbs info and requests of FL. So theres no excuse there.
In the type of situation I described I cant imagine a n00b walkon coming away with anything positive by coliding with a rearm shack in the 1 st 3 min of a 2 hour frame.
Vets make mistakes too I am tryin to say they dont.
Now the relatively new person who has registered and knows what hes flying and has time to practice and learn the basics of ah can come away hooked on such events.
Personally I would like scenarios to be restricted to folks with a paid sub but I know that wont happen.
Aub you do know there are huge differences in the way a g2 and g6 performs dont ya? :)
Anyway Newguys are good n00bs however well we'll see.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Aub you do know there are huge differences in the way a g2 and g6 performs dont ya? :)
Havn't really flown either of those planes much, was planning to during this upcoming week.
When the forums come around, it would be mighty helpful if you posted to basics of fighting and winning in the 109G2 and G6 :)
Aub
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Oops sorry if you got my meaning of CO wrong, I mean't CO as in Squad CO.
And yes I did email him.
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Bah, we knew what you meant Vulcan, wotan was just making sure.
And, naah wotan, if I were picking the assigns, I'd give everybody a clueless newbie. Sure most of them are just gonna be a liability, but one or two might actually get the hang of it.
So be glad I'm not Aub, because you'd be getting two newbies, *because* you guys are so damn good. Sure, you lose a lot, but scenarios are the best place to learn what AH is all about. Most of the time newbies don't take out the whole squad when they die (outside of certain infamous cases). At the very least, they get to see what AH squad coordination should look like.
When I started on WB, one of the first things I did was participate in a Scenario Lite. I had an absolutely amazing experience, in spite of not being able to hold formation well, and screwing up in a bunch of little details.
doktor was FL of my bomber flight, and he knew how to lead.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Oops sorry if you got my meaning of CO wrong, I mean't CO as in Squad CO.
Damn english language!!! :)
Aub
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Dinger the n00bs I flew with weren't a liability to me but to them selves. The ones in my flight only 1 lasted over 5 minutes. If you think that will send umm away hooked either on ah or scenarios well I went back and checked the names of the 3 I mentioned, unless they have a new nic they aint flyin AH....:)
Now if my flight were loaded with this type I can see where it would effect my game.
I think everyone would agree that its great for new blood to experience and take part in events. But at roll time frame 1 aint the time to learn to disable auto take off or ask whats a dt or rearm pad? and worst of all check 6? whats that :)
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Originally posted by Wotan
I think everyone would agree that its great for new blood to experience and take part in events. But at roll time frame 1 aint the time to learn to disable auto take off or ask whats a dt or rearm pad? and worst of all check 6? whats that :)
All that I can say if I see names I do not know in my flight - I have 2-3 weeks to try and help get them up to speed so there ARE NO Questions like above.
During that 2-3 weeks I would let my Squad CO and or my Side XO or CO about any problems with the new guys.
Mike "DmdJodi" Bowman
Scenario CM Staff
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That would be nice Jordi, but its time to << scream on >> RIP THOSE ROSE TINTED GLASSES OFF YOUR FACE SLAP YOU AROUND AND WAKE YOU UP TO THE REAL WORLD << scream off >> .
1st, time zones - me in NZ, some of them were Swedes, Germans, and Yanks.
2nd, several of the newbies actually signed up for the BW then signed up to AH 2 days before. So no MA practise was possible.
3rd, replies to emails were sparse (including the Squad CO, who didn't reply at all).
4th, about half those signed up never showed.
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Totally understand where yer coming from Vulcan. Problem is - I have no idea what to do about it. What you suggested initially was some kind of scoring system, and while I'd be hesitant to use something like that based on performance or newness to AH, this scenario is the first that we're gonna start tracking attendance. If people who register demonstrate a pattern of not showing up, you better believe we're gonna take notice, and those guys aint gonna starve other people out of slots.
We've got room for only 250 people. With the numbers we're starting to see in AH, this is gonna start becoming a problem. Having to drop people using the lottery (pure random dumb luck) isn't a fully satisfying solution to me. That being said, there's no way I'd ponder a system that denies newbies to scenarios, nor denies people based on some kind of performance scorecard. How could we? Beyond going by attendance, I really aint sure what to do about it.
However, this is the first time the CO's will be placing everyone in squads, rather than having some kind of system do this. This will likely be done with a lot of feedback from you in the forums, so I think the CO's are going to have a pretty good understanding of what's going on within the squads... you'll just have to make sure that you bring any potential problems to the CO's attention. We'll see how that goes, and also be thinking about other things we can do to try and cut down on the kinds of things you're talking about. Cuz yeah, that's no fun.
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Havn't really flown either of those planes much, was planning to during this upcoming week.
Even if dont make the cut email me and I'll tell ya what I know.
However there should be one or two guys that that make it in the could give ya hand..........:)
Back to vulcan point
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Originally posted by Vulcan
That would be nice Jordi, but its time to << scream on >> RIP THOSE ROSE TINTED GLASSES OFF YOUR FACE SLAP YOU AROUND AND WAKE YOU UP TO THE REAL WORLD << scream off >> .
Jordi - Actually they are a very slight shade of brown ;)
1st, time zones - me in NZ, some of them were Swedes, Germans, and Yanks.
Jordi - I was a Sqaud CO in Bigweek. I had several Euro Players and US players spread across 4 time zones. I made sure they were keep up to date on what was going on and encouraged them to have practices when it best fit thiers schedule. Ya tyhey would have liked to practice with the rest of us but that only happened on the weekend. I think at the very least almost everyone in my squad flew 1 or 2 practice runs with someone else in the squad before frame #1.
2nd, several of the newbies actually signed up for the BW then signed up to AH 2 days before. So no MA practise was possible.
Jordi - I asume you mean 2 days before frame #1 ? If so we the CM's never heard about that situation.
3rd, replies to emails were sparse (including the Squad CO, who didn't reply at all).
Jordi - Again - this is where I would start screaming to my Side XO CO. I would have been asking to replace those that have not responded to emails by those that did not get in originally. Heck I have seen regular pilots ASK to take over a squad due to lack of comms.
4th, about half those signed up never showed.
Jordi - You as a participant have every right to go to your side CO and tell him - player XYZ has not shown up for a pracitce, has not responded to any emails and did not attend frame #1 and 2 - I want to replace him with a pilot I KNOW AND TRUST will be there.
Again - All I can say is IF the samething happens this scenario go to your SIDE CO and let him know ASAP that there are problems. As you stated earlier - there are a lot of experienced Scenario pilots that may not make the reg process that can easily and quickly step into an open spot and fly.
As CM's we will be keeping as close of an eye as possible to problems like this to ensure as many spots as possible are filled between now and frame day.
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Nash:
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We've got room for only 250 people. With the numbers we're starting to see in AH, this is gonna start becoming a problem. Having to drop people using the lottery (pure random dumb luck) isn't a fully satisfying solution to me. That being said, there's no way I'd ponder a system that denies newbies to scenarios, nor denies people based on some kind of performance scorecard. How could we? Beyond going by attendance, I really aint sure what to do about it.
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When I first started AW scenarios, there were far more people signing up than could actually fly in the frames.
They used several methods that allowed anyone who signed up that opportunity to participate, instead of turning them away altogether.
The most used was a reserve list, where all squads were filled over capacity, and the extra pilots didn't fly the first frame. When pilots died, they were put at the bottom of the reserve list, and the rest moved up into pilot slots. Any noshows were put at the very bottom of the reserve list. This also had the effect of making staying alive even more important.
However, with AH's frames being back to back, it would be hard to get this system to work.
They did use another system that I think would work.
The squads were filled over capacity, and everyone was given one frame that they wouldn't fly. If you weren't scheduled, you didn't have to show up, but if you did, you were given priority over any walkons for free slots.
This allowed for everyone to get a chance to participate in the newsgroups, practices, get to know their squads, what was going on, and all the other little things that make scenarios so special.
IMO, including everyone some of the time is better than excluding some people the whole scenario.
anRky
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"The squads were filled over capacity, and everyone was given one frame that they wouldn't fly. If you weren't scheduled, you didn't have to show up, but if you did, you were given priority over any walkons for free slots." - Anrky
Hmm... Yeah that seems like a good idea. I remember that something like this might have been done for Hostile Shores - I'll have to go find out how it worked for them.
It may turn out that this won't work though, because I think 250 is the limit in the arena (flying or not)... At least that's the number where we know we won't run into problems with people disco'ing or not being able to enter the arena at all. If we have 250 flying but 325 total with the overbooked guys that are looking to fill in for no-shows, we've still got that problem. Then again, we probably get about a 75% turnout on average, so it may be a wash. Thanks for the suggestion Anrky, I'll make sure we look closer at that idea.
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in ak they stuffed the roster and the the first 10 signed flew with the rest as backups in order of the time they registered (i know 1st come 1st serve again :rolleyes: )
If you were a no show the next guy on the list was bumped up. If you died during the frame you were dropped to the bottom of the list. If you survived the frame (air frame and all) you flew the next one.
Also the backups had priority over any walkons so everyone who showed in my flight (if I remember right) ended up a part of each frame. (buffing tanking etc.....)
in hs i believe there was overflow as well and the fl decided who would fly first with some rotating and sitting out fer 1 frame. We didnt have any overflow flying 190f8s to go jabo a cv. For some reason folks weren't lined up for that job...:)
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All
Im basicaly new to AH so if anything i said has already been discussed, commented or basically feels too dweeby please forgive me, also im from Argentina, theres no such thing as "politically correct" here, so again i beg your pardon if i offend you (grammar might also disturb you).
Anyway i believe this is an important topic and posible issue (ie scenarios being too overcrowded) that HT needs to solve before it becomes a real problem.
As a subscription member (client, pilot, etc) whose main interest in AH is the SEA, i pretty much demand that if i dont cut it into the registered roster for the Scenario i get into a priority walk on list above the 2 weeks free walkons.
Harsh as it sounds its quite simple, i pay to play, i have the right to play if a spot is avaliable.
Scenarios are way to rare (temporaly speaking) and unique to be used as an advertisment tool to hook players, if you want them to taste what historically accurate, organized great fun feels like then have them join a snapshot (which should be weekly btw).
Also there are ways to ensure that the quality of the attendants stays high enough for everyone to enjoy, first you can assign walk ons (people who didnt cut it into the registration for example) to diferent squads so they practise together; theres no reason why walk ons dont have access to same practise if they want to practise for something they might not get, but they thats their problem.
Another thing would be making a rule by which every registered pilot has to attend at least 1 squad practise (or general practise) otherwise his slot can be used by someone whos not registered by attended the practises; of course there should be special case by case considerations to avoid abuse by COs who want spots for squadies, etc etc.
Finally i believe that 2week walk ons should pass a simple take off, form up, land and refuel test before being allowed into the scenario, once again a 2week walk on who know what hes doing should get a better chance to make it in. (to avoid discrimination special training sessions or increased trainers should be alocated so new pilots have the chance to get decent enough if they trully desire so).
I was a 2 weeks walk on for the first frame of BW, i hit a refuel hut leaving my squad undermanned, i didnt enjoy the experience personally but it was awesome to see the diferent squads all organized, so last 2 frames i joined a buff squad as walk on (figured they wouldnt be refueling) and had the greatest time since i joined AH.
Oh, i almost forget, if SEA too small make it bigger! so we dont have to worry about lists, only quality of players and training sessions etc.
Kisters
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<<>> -Vulcan
Oh, then ban experienced pilots. Seriously, there is a Witch Hunt going on regarding "newbies" but it sounds like the problem of no-shows and participation is even across the board between veterans and newbies. Now people are trying to play some "I've been here longer than you" or "I'm better at this than you" card to try to fill a slot. Very pathetic.
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Hi Guys,
For those of you who read every forum, apologies for cross posting this idea.
I’d like to begin with a disclaimer, because I’ve never been involved in the organization of a scenario I may be off base here, but even so I'd like to propose a solution that may solve the current problem. Even if it doesn't satisfy everyone, I think it might still be a good idea, anyway... But please, if my ignorance of the inner workings of these events means the solution is flawed, please be gentle with me :)
Problem:
At the moment there are not enough places for everyone who wants to be involved in the Invasion Sicily Scenario. Basically, 4 frames scheduled for the 16th and 23rd of March are over subscribed and nobody wants to be left out.
Solution:
Simply repeat the entire event again the following month (or other suitable interval) and let all the reserves have their first choice.
Considering the amount of work and preparation that goes into a scenario, it seems a shame to make it a one off event anyway. Personally I’d like to see each event happen three times in a row, just to get the mileage from it that everyone’s effort deserves. I have often wished I could play an entire event from both sides. Not only would it give everyone a chance to participate in every scenario, at least once, it would also provide the events team with an opportunity to debug the inevitable issues arising after the first set of frames.
The only objection I can think of is the extra burden placed on the organizers. But that could be turned into an advantage. Once the wrinkles have been smoothed out of an event during the first round, the additional workload for everyone (all the way down through group and flight leaders) can be eased by introducing players into positions of responsibility that they haven’t previously attempted. That would not only provide an opportunity to train players who would like to accept more responsibility. At best it would provide a larger pool of competent players able to help take some of the burden, and at worst, it would give the less tolerant players a chance to see how difficult things really are when they are the ones in the hot seat :)
Badboy